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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Practical use of Music Theory presented in a fun way


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/339993/2

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chuckv97 - Posted - 03/01/2018:  12:08:58


Well, Mozart and Beethoven not so much. JS rules

Mooooo - Posted - 03/01/2018:  12:39:21


quote:

Originally posted by chuckv97

oh, and thnx for the new car offer, but dees daze I’ve been going “green” ....






Let me guess. Does your current vehicle have 1 Horse Power? 

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/01/2018:  14:49:01


I had considered Bach, but I didn't feel much like perusing his entire output (it's huge!) to see if I was correct. I also considered some of the other Baroque masters. I felt had I said anything, it could have lead to further confusion or to others frantically searching through their files to be first to win the glory. Had I known a car was to be awarded, I may have tried harder, myself! Mine is on it's last wheels.

I must admit to not caring a lot for J.S, although I do find some of his stuff more interesting than any of his offspring's compositions. He's a great one for study purposes, but not one I particularly care to listen to. Musicologists and others may shout out me for that comment, but I really don't care. They're my ears, and they'll listen to whatever they want!

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/01/2018:  16:14:58


Blasphemy!! , Georgie Porgie, and I’m not shouting - it’s not in uppercase letters ;- )

Mooooo - Posted - 03/01/2018:  17:08:26


quote:

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

I had considered Bach, but I didn't feel much like perusing his entire output (it's huge!) to see if I was correct. I also considered some of the other Baroque masters. I felt had I said anything, it could have lead to further confusion or to others frantically searching through their files to be first to win the glory. Had I known a car was to be awarded, I may have tried harder, myself! Mine is on it's last wheels.



I must admit to not caring a lot for J.S, although I do find some of his stuff more interesting than any of his offspring's compositions. He's a great one for study purposes, but not one I particularly care to listen to. Musicologists and others may shout out me for that comment, but I really don't care. They're my ears, and they'll listen to whatever they want!






You don't like the Mozart piece because as you say "I've always considered this particular movement of this particular sonata to be a bit of a pot boiler, not one of Mozart's greats, and I avoid it whenever possible." And you just plain don't like Bach...tell us who you do like and which of their songs you enjoy, and maybe next time I will try to forget one of those.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/01/2018:  18:57:39


It's not that I don't like either of those named composers and I enjoy a lot of Mozart's pieces, particularly the piano concertos, the string quintets, and too many others to name. I just don't care a lot for that particular sonata. As for Bach, I did mention that he's great for study of harmony and counterpoint, and there are compositions by him that I do listen to sometimes. It's just that listening to Bach requires a certain frame of mind for me, a frame that I'm not in very frequently.

There are, perhaps others that I prefer to Bach (Mozart is one) and there are too many to really detail or list. But here are a few: Gabriel Faure, Ravel, Debussy, Borodin, Scriabin (but not all of his stuff), Enrique Granados, Charles Tomlinson Griffes, Vivaldi, Liszt, Chopin.

Really, my usual choices depend a lot on my mood at the time, and with all composers, I can find some pieces that I really like, and others that I don't like at all. I also find that too much of anyone at a time can get to be a bit of an irritant.

FlyinEagle - Posted - 03/02/2018:  05:15:44


Tough crowd in here.



I’m a blasphemer like George…I’m not the biggest Bach fan either. There are Bach pieces I enjoy, and his importance and brilliance is not a question to me, but as a whole I’m just not that into his material. But I don’t much care for the baroque period in general. I don’t like the sound of the harpsichord or incessantly twiddling flutes, recorders and oboes, so that takes a lot of early music off the table for me. I am particularly unfond of Telemann, but I do enjoy Vivaldi and Handel quite a bit.



It’s not always easy to admit you don’t like something a music lover is “supposed” to like.






Edited by - FlyinEagle on 03/02/2018 05:16:39

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/02/2018:  05:38:33


I hear you, Jeff....sort of like I’m supposed to like Jimmy Martin’s singing (after 1955)

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/02/2018:  05:53:05


Aha! I figured there might be at least one person out there who had a similar opinion about Bach.

I believe part of the problem is that a lot of Bach is played in an unauthentic manner on inferior instruments; it's hard to find genuine period instruments that are still in one piece. One complaint I've heard first-hand from a harpsichord expert was that "So many builders these days copy the low-quality original instruments instead of the really good ones."

According to many experts on the Baroque era, the music is actually far more expressive than it is usually played. I attended an informal lecture and demonstration once by a Bach expert, and his playing was far above what is normally heard by contemporary performers. He did way more with subtle phrasing and a varied touch, and even without the huge dynamic range of more modern instruments, was able to put as much expression into Bach as one might find in Chopin.

I do wonder sometimes that if I'd been exposed to a more correct Bach, on more correct instruments, that I might have learned to enjoy his music more. Still, too many fugues can still be overwhelming.

FlyinEagle - Posted - 03/02/2018:  07:40:45


I don’t think period instruments would do it for me when it comes to baroque and earlier material. My personal tastes are firmly rooted in the classical, romantic, and (up to the mid) 20th century.



It’s interesting to think about the interpretations of a composer’s work. Over so many years and interpretations of interpretations it becomes like a musical game of whisper down the lane. It’s kind of amusing to me how when period recordings are made there always seems to be outcry and disagreement over the performance, which is supposed to be the composers intent (How allegro is Allegro con Brio really supposed to be, etc etc.). Sometimes the period recordings fall short to my ear though, I think because we are used to full, modern orchestrations at the tempos we are used to hearing them at. Period recordings can sound weak by comparison.



With regard to the composer’s intent, you might have a recording of the composer conducting his own piece to refer to with more recent material. But would the composer conduct a piece at the age of 60 the same way he did at the age of 30? I doubt it. A composition (of any kind) becomes much greater than the sum of its parts once it is out in the wild.



Phrasing on the other hand, I have not put a lot of thought into how that may have evolved over the centuries. You play what’s on the page, but how do we really know how musicians stylized what was written back then. I’m no historian, of course. Maybe these things are well understood.


Edited by - FlyinEagle on 03/02/2018 07:42:31

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  08:28:32


Everyone can like or dislike whomever they want. The question in Name That Tune isn't who you like, it's who wrote it. Everyone has a right to dislike Bach if they want to, as long as they like Earl Scruggs, I don't think anyone can say you're wrong or right, it's personal. You have the right to your opinions and likes and dislikes as long as you like Earl. That's the rule.

FlyinEagle - Posted - 03/02/2018:  08:33:12


So now I wonder if there is anyone on these boards who dislikes Earl’s playing, and would they ever admit that blasphemy?

I missed round 2 of the game. Can you try to forget something else?

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  08:37:01


That would make a really interesting topic in the Scruggs section Jeff. Especially if you start it out with "I don't like Earl Scruggs picking, does anyone else feel the same way?"

Something tells me you will be mocked and insulted for many many pages. Then the Banjo Gestapo will ridicule you for the rest of your short life.


Edited by - Mooooo on 03/02/2018 08:38:07

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/02/2018:  08:42:36


quote:

Originally posted by FlyinEagle

I don’t think period instruments would do it for me when it comes to baroque and earlier material. My personal tastes are firmly rooted in the classical, romantic, and (up to the mid) 20th century.



It’s interesting to think about the interpretations of a composer’s work. Over so many years and interpretations of interpretations it becomes like a musical game of whisper down the lane. It’s kind of amusing to me how when period recordings are made there always seems to be outcry and disagreement over the performance, which is supposed to be the composers intent (How allegro is Allegro con Brio really supposed to be, etc etc.). Sometimes the period recordings fall short to my ear though, I think because we are used to full, modern orchestrations at the tempos we are used to hearing them at. Period recordings can sound weak by comparison.



With regard to the composer’s intent, you might have a recording of the composer conducting his own piece to refer to with more recent material. But would the composer conduct a piece at the age of 60 the same way he did at the age of 30? I doubt it. A composition (of any kind) becomes much greater than the sum of its parts once it is out in the wild.



Phrasing on the other hand, I have not put a lot of thought into how that may have evolved over the centuries. You play what’s on the page, but how do we really know how musicians stylized what was written back then. I’m no historian, of course. Maybe these things are well understood.






There would certainly be some difference of opinion as far as period recordings are concerned, but some people delve into the matter more than others, using contemporary accounts of performances, actual manuscripts, correspondence between fellow composers, instruction treatises on the various instruments, etc. I agree, though, that there can be no real agreement without the composer's input and that even the best, most complete of materials can also be interpreted in somewhat different ways. I also find your comments about how a piece might be performed by the composer at different to be amusing. Many composers never wished to perform because they felt their own playing abilities weren't quite up to the task. Chopin, for example, once said Liszt was the only person who could do justice to his own Etudes, and Faure almost never played his own piano compositions, but left them to another player. Ravel was similar; he considered himself a mediocre pianist. The age factor is definitely there, too. I once performed in a choir led by the American composer, Roy Harris, in one of his own compositions. He was getting a bit senile, I believe, and his wife constantly had to prod him to keep the tempo to a reasonable speed so that we wouldn't all get too sleepy to sing. Thankfully, he did slightly better at the actual performance than he had during rehearsals, although in most people's minds, the tempo was still too slow.



As far as phrasing is concerned, however, I would have to say that most of the best composers pretty well delineated them with both slurs, dynamics, staccato marks, and accents. I do believe that many modern editions have edited some of that out, and it's why the best period performances generally use the urtext versions. 



Interpretation is definitely part of music, and is a great portion of what makes it such an incredible art form. Perhaps some people go overboard, but that's part of the beauty: we all get to choose which version we like best, and we all get to pick what instruments we like, what styles we like, and which composers light our own separate worlds to our own satisfaction.

FlyinEagle - Posted - 03/02/2018:  10:50:24


People do have a way of going too far overboard with things they are passionate about, and music is very powerful. I think that is ok as long as it doesn’t make you blind to alternate opinions, viewpoints, or interpretations, as we are discussing here.



I feel silly to admit that I have never considered that notation could be omitted over time in various printings of the same work. Perhaps a transcriber might even slip his own phrasing or interpretation into a score, or intentionally omit others. That seems very obvious to me now.



I once had the honor of playing in the pit for a performance of West Side Story. The book I was playing from was photo-copied from a handwritten manuscript that I assumed was Bernstein’s own writing. It somehow made me feel very connected to the composer and the work, much more so than reading a printed page. On my first trip to Europe I made a side trip to Salzburg just to visit Mozart’s birth house. Other than the violin he learned on as a child, the artifacts that moved me the most were Mozart’s original hand-written manuscripts. I spent a long time staring at them, and I remember feeling that same connection to the Artist, even more than if I were just listening to the music that was on the paper.



cool

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/02/2018:  11:55:17


I’ve heard of some classical guitarists that quit playing Bach’s lute suites because it wasn’t authentic to the original. The guitar just doesn’t have all those bass strings. Bach didn’t play the lute and composed them for the lautenwerk, a keyboard instrument constructed to imitate the lute’s sonority.



BWV 995, 996 ,997, 998, 999, 1000a


Edited by - chuckv97 on 03/02/2018 11:56:24

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  12:14:32


quote:

Originally posted by FlyinEagle

I missed round 2 of the game. Can you try to forget something else?






So far these have been tunes I forgot the names of and couldn't remember them for years...mmuussiiccaall put one up there too which you also missed. You are more than welcome to pick a tune and describe it either with words or tab, or pick it on your banjo if you like, that may make it too obvious, but it still could be fun.


Edited by - Mooooo on 03/02/2018 12:17:43

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/02/2018:  12:15:25


One well known instance of alteration is Bach's "prelude # 1 from the "Well Tempered Clavier," which in many published editions is lacking one entire measure. Chopin's works have been heavily edited by various famous pianists, and even in the 19th century, orchestras would sometimes substitute the 3rd movement of Beethoven's 6th symphony for what they considered a lesser stretch in someone else's composition. Also, some publishers have made tiny alterations in their editions to avoid copyright laws. It's no doubt how G. Schirmer could claim a 1909 copyright date on a piece composed in the 18th century. Then, there are the composers themselves who have sometimes issued revised scores or transcribed a piece for a different instrument or instruments, or who have re-orchestrated the works of others ("Pictures at an exhibition was originally a composed as a piano piece, for example. Ravel made it into an orchestral masterpiece.)

Almost every modern performance of Classical Period (Mozart, Haydn, et al) music uses a far larger orchestra than originally specified, and of course, Bach never wrote anything for actual piano (Glen Gould be damned!) due to it's still being in a rather crude stage of development (he did think the one demonstrated to him had possibilities, though).

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/02/2018:  13:10:59


I really despise Del McCoury’s whiney voice but I can only say that from the relative safety of the theory forum

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/02/2018:  13:37:52


How about guessing a song from one note, it starts it's melody with a #4

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  13:43:25


Is that the # 4 note of the scale or an a# 4 - 8th fret of the banjo? What key is it in and/or is that a# a lead in note or the first real note of the melody? Are you trying to trick us by calling it one name when it is really another? like A# for B flat?


Edited by - Mooooo on 03/02/2018 13:44:37

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  13:47:16


mmuussiiccaall
if you mean the #4 note of the scale, my guess it "The Sound of Music." Is that it? What did I win?

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/02/2018:  13:57:23


quote:
Originally posted by Mooooo

mmuussiiccaall
if you mean the #4 note of the scale, my guess it "The Sound of Music." Is that it? What did I win?




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The melody of The Sound of Music starts on the 5th.

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  14:03:04


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

 



quote:

Originally posted by Mooooo

mmuussiiccaall

if you mean the #4 note of the scale, my guess it "The Sound of Music." Is that it? What did I win?


 




 




---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The melody of The Sound of Music starts on the 5th.

 






yes, you're right. Any interest in answering the other questions I raised in the previous post to that one? Also, if you are just giving one note, give us some history or the composer or something more than one note.  Pretty please


Edited by - Mooooo on 03/02/2018 14:04:15

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  14:09:45


quote:

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I really despise Del McCoury’s whiney voice but I can only say that from the relative safety of the theory forum






Go into your corner and come back out when you have a better attitude.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/02/2018:  14:24:41




yes, you're right. Any interest in answering the other questions I raised in the previous post to that one? Also, if you are just giving one note, give us some history or the composer or something more than one note. Pretty please<



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm being stingy with hints to give others a shot at it.


Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 03/02/2018 14:26:58

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/02/2018:  14:25:53


quote:

Originally posted by Mooooo

quote:

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I really despise Del McCoury’s whiney voice but I can only say that from the relative safety of the theory forum






Go into your corner and come back out when you have a better attitude.






There used to be a guy who came on the forums and said Earl always played out of tune - at least I'm not that stupid!

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  14:32:49


quote:

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

quote:

Originally posted by Mooooo

quote:

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I really despise Del McCoury’s whiney voice but I can only say that from the relative safety of the theory forum






Go into your corner and come back out when you have a better attitude.






There used to be a guy who came on the forums and said Earl always played out of tune - at least I'm not that stupid!






You just gave me an idea for another topic. "Name that Loon"  - which member said it?

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/02/2018:  14:34:48


His screen name was stringbreaker. I think he might be locked. Or dead.

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/02/2018:  16:47:53


Name this relatively famous Canadian-penned song that ends on the 5 chord.

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  17:21:39


quote:

Originally posted by chuckv97

Name this relatively famous Canadian-penned song that ends on the 5 chord.






Chuck, we have to answer mmuussiiccaall's "name that" tune before we move onto a new one. Or you can also change the topic entirely like Laurence, G. Edward, Jeff and Russ have done. But we can't have two "name that tune" topics going simultaneously, that would be bad forum manners. wink

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/02/2018:  17:26:20


Name what Loon...?

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/02/2018:  17:36:54


quote:

Originally posted by Mooooo

quote:

Originally posted by chuckv97

Name this relatively famous Canadian-penned song that ends on the 5 chord.






Chuck, we have to answer mmuussiiccaall's "name that" tune before we move onto a new one. Or you can also change the topic entirely like Laurence, G. Edward, Jeff and Russ have done. But we can't have two "name that tune" topics going simultaneously, that would be bad forum manners. wink






Oops, my alopogees. Somehow I missed the #4 question. My mind hints at a fiddle tune waltz that starts on the #4 and goes to the 5 note of the scale.  Can’t place it yet though.

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/02/2018:  17:38:46


quote:

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

quote:

Originally posted by Mooooo


Go into your corner and come back out when you have a better attitude.


There used to be a guy who came on the forums and said Earl always played out of tune - at least I'm not that stupid!




That guy was probably trying to play along with the old recordings when F&S tuned up to G#

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  17:47:07


I guess Foggy Mountain Breakdown...the pinch that starts the tune out is a pick-up note and not a melody note. So the first note of the hammer-on is C# which is the #4 of G major. mmuussiiccaall

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/02/2018:  17:51:23


Hmm...but tuned up to G sharp, it’d be a D .....is that clear as mud ?

FlyinEagle - Posted - 03/02/2018:  18:01:49


I don't know. That is tough without a little bit of context. The next note so we have an interval to think about, or genre, or era, key. eh?

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/02/2018:  18:19:05


quote:
Originally posted by FlyinEagle

I don't know. That is tough without a little bit of context. The next note so we have an interval to think about, or genre, or era, key. eh?





hint: 17 days from now

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  18:43:06


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

hint: 17 days from now



Isn't that the day to sober up from St Pat's Day celebrating?

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/02/2018:  20:26:40


I am assuming that #4 means a raised 4th step of a scale, so the key shouldn't much matter.

However, there might easily be tunes in several different genres which begin in that manner, and sometimes pick-up notes are actually a part of the melody and is merely a way to offset the rhythm.

To put it bluntly, the clue is entirely too vague. I wonder if perhaps the poser of this puzzle intended it to be that way to show us all how ignorant we are, or to at least poke fun of our overblown claims of musical erudition.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/02/2018:  20:44:57


Wow sorry, the interval and the hint were both wrong. The interval is the seventh of the major scale. And my hint should be 17 days from now MARCH 20 and that note BTW is a dotted half note!surprise


Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 03/02/2018 21:04:19

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  21:27:02


Dear mmuussiiccaall what interval? you gave us a #4, are you saying the next note is a Maj 7 from that? Higher or lower in pitch? Or the #4 should be changed to a maj 7?

Confused

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/02/2018:  21:30:52


the #4 should be changed to a maj 7

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  21:36:11


Come on Rick let's get this moving. Give us what we need to make a decent guess, not just two tiny specks of information strung out over hours and hours...describe the song somehow with words, do something.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/02/2018:  22:21:48


broadway ballad, jazz standard

Mooooo - Posted - 03/02/2018:  22:28:23


Now I know how it feels to be a dentist

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/02/2018:  22:43:12


ok Spring Is Here

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/02/2018:  23:55:57


Spring is Here youtu.be/dVh3QYctZ74  



                         youtu.be/eeu_zsLlDlM


Edited by - chuckv97 on 03/02/2018 23:57:13

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 03/03/2018:  04:30:55


youtube.com/watch?v=-jdZDW6224E



Jo Stafford first two measures Ebdim Eb6 beautiful melody line D Eb C


Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 03/03/2018 04:35:54

FlyinEagle - Posted - 03/03/2018:  07:37:03


OK here's one. It might be too easy, though.

Key is b flat minor. Melody starts on the 5 note, descends to the 1 note with a natural 4 note.

I won't indicate the rhythm. That would def make it too easy.

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