Yep, there were three..9584-1, 2, and 3. Earls was number 3, mine was 2, and JD got 9584-1. Actually there was another one..9584-5...I think it's in Raliegh N.C. Their tones were similar yet slightly different. Set up I suppose..I've played them all. I like mine best for me, but I'm sure they feel the same. At lunch one day I accused JD of giving up the farm for it simply because Earl and I had the other two. He answered in his usual way by saying, "right!" I love Crowe like a brother! We've known one another about 65 years.
The reason he bought it was because they are the best five string banjos ever made..In my opinion.
But then to my surprise he went to Frank and had A Mahogany neck built and installed...Once again I saw my opportunity and accused him of doing that because it was rumored Earl had put a Mahogany neck on his 9584-3 back in he late 50's.. Well that word got out and several other Granada owners rushed to Frank and had Mahogany necks made...UNREAL. I'm reminded that Earl didn't keep that thing on there but for a short time. JD, I have heard, has changed his back to the original curly Maple neck...ahem...as did Earl. UNREAL!
I did have another neck made..Curly Maple...like the original because I nearly had the original neck broken...Thanks to a ceiling fan in Texas and Little Roy Lewis in Rural Hall, North Carolina. Funny thing about that, I couldn't tell any difference in the tone. But, Raymond McClain, who was working with Jim and Jesse at the time...on the way to the Opry was listening on the radio, asked; "Did you do something to your banjo? I noticed a slight difference in the sound." He was the only one who ever said anything about it...which says a lot for Raymond's ear. He would be good in a recording studio.. (one of the nicest people I have ever known)
I've written another book...I just don't know when to shut it down.
And if you don't mind, I am going to ask you another question. How much difference does the gold plating make. As I understand it, Earl had gold plating but most of it wore off. Do you think some banjos (neck and rim configuration) sound better with gold and some sound better with out it?
It is kind of a shame that Earl's banjo has turned into a museum piece and is not getting played, but I cannot think of an appropriate way to have it played on any regular basis.
ken
Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 03/06/2019 06:11:20
Ken...speaking just for me, it seems as though Gold plating tends to soften the tone of a banjo. The RB3 I had was Nickel, or chrome and it always had a tinny sound as compared to the Granada. However, Aaron McDaris doesn't seem to have any problem getting a great sound from that banjo. Just meI guess.!
When I started building the Chief, they were all Gold. I thought they had a softer tone and sustain was a bit better. ...I've never had any complaints. I also prefer Gold strictly because it looks better...especially after it wears some. It doesn't look shiny but still has that gold tint...I like that.
Earl's banjo didn't just wear off, he actually changed the parts to Nickel...that according to his son Gary. He changed everything but the tonering and it didn't seem to alter the tone one bit...Go figger... personal preference I reckon.
A long time ago, I heard there were only five original pre war 5 string Granada's made, & that Wade Mainer's was one the them. Might that be the NC banjo #5 you referred to? And if there really were five, where the hell is 9584-4?
No, I don't where that got started. To my knowledge there were 4 built by Gibson about 1934 with the serial number of 9584. 1,2,3,4,5. We were able to track down four of them...No. 1 Dave Osborne, No. 3 Earl, No.5 Tim Myatt, and No.2 Me. I know of several more five string Granada banjos but the group of four under discussion were all extremely good. None better in my opinion.
Wade's banjo was not one of those. Interesting banjo, the one Wade had.
Number 4 finally surfaced as a top tension. Or so I'm told. I never saw it but I talked to Curtis McPeak on the phone some years ago and he told me he had 9584-4 and it was a top tension banjo. I don't know the history of that banjo, whether it is a plectrum, tenor, or five string, nor do I know of it's whereabouts at the present..
I took lessons from Mickey Flatt and really liked his mahogany Chief #1. I made a trip about ten years ago and stopped by Janet Davis Music and tried out a Stelling Master Flower and was hooked. I'm by no means worthy of such a banjo but I do love it. I wonder if the Tony Pass rim might have solved some of the issues you had with yours? Mine seems to stay in tune or very, very close even with weather swings. I'm pretty sure Geoff went to the Pass rim after you played the Son Flower.
You are right about Geoff and Sherry, they are good people. Sherry answered any questions I had by email and kept me updated on the progress from start to finish. I called the shop one day and Geoff answered the phone. I still prefer to do business with small businesses and true craftsmen like Geoff and Frank. That's why when I decided to write the big check it came down to Goeff and Frank. Didn't want to get off topic here to far but thanks for your insight on the Stelling. Who knows, I may still own a Chief yet. :)
sonny, what about the granada crowe has, i heard it was #1 of the 9584 batch.
From Sonny's ost of March 6:
Yep, there were three..9584-1, 2, and 3. Earls was number 3, mine was 2, and JD got 9584-1. Actually there was another one..9584-5...I think it's in Raliegh N.C. Their tones were similar yet slightly different. Set up I suppose..I've played them all. I like mine best for me, but I'm sure they feel the same. At lunch one day I accused JD of giving up the farm for it simply because Earl and I had the other two. He answered in his usual way by saying, "right!" I love Crowe like a brother! We've known one another about 65 years.
The reason he bought it was because they are the best five string banjos ever made..In my opinion.
But then to my surprise he went to Frank and had A Mahogany neck built and installed...Once again I saw my opportunity and accused him of doing that because it was rumored Earl had put a Mahogany neck on his 9584-3 back in he late 50's.. Well that word got out and several other Granada owners rushed to Frank and had Mahogany necks made...UNREAL. I'm reminded that Earl didn't keep that thing on there but for a short time. JD, I have heard, has changed his back to the original curly Maple neck...ahem...as did Earl. UNREAL!
I did have another neck made..Curly Maple...like the original because I nearly had the original neck broken...Thanks to a ceiling fan in Texas and Little Roy Lewis in Rural Hall, North Carolina. Funny thing about that, I couldn't tell any difference in the tone. But, Raymond McClain, who was working with Jim and Jesse at the time...on the way to the Opry was listening on the radio, asked; "Did you do something to your banjo? I noticed a slight difference in the sound." He was the only one who ever said anything about it...which says a lot for Raymond's ear. He would be good in a recording studio.. (one of the nicest people I have ever known)
I've written another book...I just don't know when to shut it down.
Dale Sledd had a prewar Granada, don't know if it was an original 5 string or not, Dale is My wife's cousin, But I don't know if He is still alive or not? Last I heard He was still living here in Mo. I remember back when Dale, and Patsy played to gather, Cause I'm 83 years old today, But I remember everything pretty well. Your pickin inspired Me very much THANKS. (Up This Hill And Down)
Up this Hill and Down was an inspired recording...;-)
Dale has been gone since August 21 of 2016, Born April 23 of 1938..he was 79. Buried on Warsaw, MO.
He worked with us for 12 years and was one of three best rhythm guitar players I was associated with. Ray Edenton, Lester Flatt, and Dale.
His banjo was a pre war raised head, or arch top Granada that he took to Gibson in the late 50's and had a pre war flat tone ring installed which required cutting the rim. Some of the arch top conversions were not very good but Dale's Granada was good, probably th best one that I played. The sustain on that banjo was unreal. I played it some while he was with us. It was good. I don't know of it's whereabouts. I do know that he had some instruments stolen but I don't know whether the banjo was one of them. I recorded with that banjo as did Dale. He and I played twin on some of our records. Not only the best guitar player, but he was a pretty good banjo and acoustic bass player as well.
Dale Sledd had a prewar Granada, don't know if it was an original 5 string or not, Dale is My wife's cousin, But I don't know if He is still alive or not? Last I heard He was still living here in Mo. I remember back when Dale, and Patsy played to gather, Cause I'm 83 years old today, But I remember everything pretty well. Your pickin inspired Me very much THANKS. (Up This Hill And Down)
I know that banjo, it wasn't a 5 string and it wasn't a factory flathead........Sonny should know this banjo too, I heard rumor that it's the banjo that Sledd Ridin' was cut with. He can confirm or deny that rumor! Interesting story about that banjo , if there's any truth to it. Heard it was taken to Gibson in the mid/late 50's where it was cut and fitted with a gold plated flathead ring and that Gibson also built the curly maple FE neck that is on it. Again, Sonny will know and can confirm or deny. I know it's a pretty stout old banjo, if you like that kinda thing!
You are partially correct. Dale took the banjo to Gibson and as I remember he stayed while they did the work. The tone ring was a prewar Flat ring. The neck, I believed to be the real deal, but if you know different, then I'm wrong. I discussed the rim cut and tone ring with Dale but the neck was never mentioned. Anyhow, that banjo was good and since you brought it up I seem to remember that I might have recorded "Sledd Riding" with his banjo. He helped write it so, why not...sounds reasonable and he would have liked that as well..
CHRIS SHARP....Who is he? I Know the name, but I can't put a face on it. I don't like to get into a ....ing contest but sometimes I feel it deserving. Of course, this being one of those times.
Obviously MR. Sharp believes Lester Flatt to be a genius. I surely can't argue with the fact that Lester was good...but Genius? I have a problem with that. I've played with, and know some good, very good rhythm Guitar players...but GENIUS...that one hasn't surfaced yet...IN MY OPINION.
It was brought to my attention that MR. Sharp criticized my comment concerning the statement I had made about Guitar players and actually said in a roundabout way that my knowledge was quite limited, when it came to timing and rhythm Guitar players.. I think I said Dale, Lester Flatt, Ray Edenton, were three of the best I had been associated with. These people I was associated with and definitely should be added to that list... Paul Brewster, Dana Cupp, Terry Eldredge, Jimmy Martin, and Red Allen, and...Doyle Lawson is a great rhythm Guitar player, but I was not professionally associated with him other than being friends for a hundred years...He, MR. Sharp (flat) also made a comment about the poor timing on our records. Well, In doing that he thought he was alluding to OUR BAND'S timing when actually he was criticizing; Terry Smith, Bob Moore, Ray Edenton, Grady Martin, Buddy Emmons, Hal Rugg, Weldon Myrick, Pig Robins, Pete Wade, Buddy Harmon, Willie Ackerman, Vassar Clements, Buddy Spicher, Blaine Sprouse, and Lightning Chance. Literally the best musicians in the world... and add to that, the best Producer ever, OWEN BRADLEY!
Remembering, when Lester and Earl left Bill Monroe they took the sound (which would include timing) with them and when Earl left Flatt and Scruggs the timing suffered without Earl, so......
The old saying...IF A FISH KEPT IT'S MOUTH SHUT, IT WOULD STAY OUT OF TROUBLE......SO TRUE, HUH?
OK, I probably shouldn't have written this and that makes me the fish...it brings me down to that level and I don't like that, but sometimes I think the truth is necessary. If I have offended anyone with my way of thinking or my thoughts here, or anywhere else, Please accept my apology.
I said once in a post that Lester was a genius....I need to clarify that...He was a genius by sticking with Earl Scruggs....and a good rhythm Guitar player...
You are partially correct. Dale took the banjo to Gibson and as I remember he stayed while they did the work. The tone ring was a prewar Flat ring. The neck, I believed to be the real deal, but if you know different, then I'm wrong. I discussed the rim cut and tone ring with Dale but the neck was never mentioned. Anyhow, that banjo was good and since you brought it up I seem to remember that I might have recorded "Sledd Riding" with his banjo. He helped write it so, why not...sounds reasonable and he would have liked that as well..
s
Sonny, thanks for the reply and at least partial clarification. I say partial because (a) that's been a long time for you to remember details and (b) I'm just going off the story I was told when the new owner got it a few years back, so there is room for error for both of us. So....does mid/late 50's sound right for Dale to have taken it to Gibson? Your news on the neck and the ring will be of GREAT surprise to the new owner as he presumed that Gibson built the neck when they installed the ring......even he thought it odd with it being a Flying Eagle neck. The ring he also assumed was whatever they had at the time, although he did say that there was a "slight" chance that it could be an old one. Thanks again, it's nice to visit with you even if it's thru written word.
Dale and I had several conversations about that banjo. He told me it was 1958 he took it to Gibson. I understood the tone ring was one of the old ones. And, from experience that banjo sounded too good to be a 50's Gibson ring. I remember it to be a sweet sounding, easy playing instrument. Dale loved it and it surprises me that he would consider selling it. However, I remember once at the Early Bird Bluegrass Festival, at the Fairgrounds in Nashville. An older man came to me and offered $100,000. for my banjo. Dale looked at me and said, "God, I bet my banjo would bring a pretty good price." I missed Dale's presence in our band, the vocal, and Guitar was very hard to replace.
Gibson did in fact make some Granada banjos with the Flying Eagle inlay. Bud Rose and Wade Mainer had original Gibson five string Granada banjos with FE inlay. My banjo has Old style Hearts and Flowers.
Robby...the neck, I just assumed it was an original five string. He never said it wasn't. I bet Lonnie Hoppers would know more about that.... if someone had some way to get in touch with him. He and Dale were pretty close friends at one time...earlier in their lives.
Another thought came to mind concerning the tone ring. A 50's Gibson ring was not good enough to make a banjo sound as good as that one...and, If it didn't sound good I wouldn't have recorded with it. Having checked a bit further, Sledd Riding was recorded with Dale's banjo. It has been a long time ago, but I remember things....
Sonny, Thanks for telling it like it is concerning Mr. Sharp/Flat. I agree totally with what you said. And I may open a can of worms saying this, but that flat head ring in Dale Sledd's banjo (And I remember seeing you play it on stage at Pinnacle, N.C in the late 70's), could it have been left over from the 30's ? I know there's a self appointed expert or two that claim there were no pre war flat heads left over from that period. But I have also seen over the years that if you say "Gibson didn't do this or never done that", in time you'll find out they probably did. At least that's what I've seen happen more than once. Bet you have too. Eric Ellis
Hope you’re doing well. Haven’t seen you since John Hartford’s funeral.
"Obviously MR. Sharp believes Lester Flatt to be a genius. I surely can't argue with the fact that Lester was good...but Genius? I have a problem with that. I've played with, and know some good, very good rhythm Guitar players...but GENIUS...that one hasn't surfaced yet...IN MY OPINION."
In fact, I was agreeing with you: "It takes more than just strapping a Guitar on, understanding what needs to be done, and more importantly...what doesn't need to be done. That separates the men from the boys. Lester Flatt was a genius." – Sonny Osborne Oct 7, 2015 - 11:05 AM
"He, MR. Sharp (flat) also made a comment about the poor timing on our records. "
Actually, you’re one of my musical idols, and I never said a single negative word about your recordings. They make up half of what I listen to all day every day (and have for at least the past 25 years). In fact, nearly everything I said about you in that post was complimentary despite the fact that you appear to have been told incorrect interpretations of cherrypicked quotes by someone who seemed to really want you to get angry. Some of the live shows were pretty loose, and I’m not going to apologize for speaking the truth (that is what you wanted here?)
Here are some of my excerpts from the thread:
"They (The Osborne Brothers) are my desert island band. I think Sonny is a brilliant record producer, amazing banjo player, beautiful singer, and just amazing on many levels. His forte, however, is not judging rhythm guitar players. The only thing I have read that I agree with from him in this post is that Lester Flatt was a genius." “Being great at what you do doesn't make you great at something else. Sonny Osborne is one of the most important people in my musical journey. If you ever heard any of my recordings then that would be clear. He does not, from what I can tell, know much about what makes a rhythm guitar player great. Noticing that is not an insult.”
About Dale Sledd: "I always liked his playing on the country stuff. Minimal playing suits that sound very well. Not really effective on the F&S covers though."
I’m linking some music and posting a picture of the inside and back of a CD jacket in hopes that you’ll see how fond I am of your music. I have nothing to say about the quality of my music, but I can tell you that my goal as a musician has been to blend your music and F&S music together. Finally, I will tell you that while I love F&S, my favorite band has been and will always be The Osborne Brothers (and the Eagles).
I wrote this because your first sentence seemed to ask for a response. Although I hope I’ve demonstrated how much your music means to me, I stand by my opinions. I also want to make clear that though an insult was perceived, none was intended.
Sonny. I am aware you have viewed the entire post by Mr. Sharp. One thing Mr. sharp omitted here that he posted was "I love the Osborne Brothers. They are not really known for having good timing which is one of the qualities that every **great** rhythm guitar player I've ever encountered had." This is clearly an insult as he still maintains your music didn't have good timing and you didn't understand what the guitar should be doing. In his own words judging a rhythm guitar player was " not your forte" A clear insult to all those who have worked with you. I remain grateful for our 40 years of friendship and those great years of working with you. I speak here on behalf of myself and Lincoln.
I can only hope that someday my timing will be as “bad”as yours Mr. Osborne. Ha ha. If I can get to the point to where I can pick as bad as you, I will be one hell of a banjo player. Thank you sir for all that you do for us here on the hang out.
Sonny - new to the forum and this thread. I’ve been a hack banjo player for almost 40 years now and while I rarely play these days, one thing I do is listen to bluegrass music. I download iTunes and play them in the car or working around home or our farm. I’ve always liked the Osborne Brothers, Bobby’s voice, your banjo playing. I have a goodly collection of the OB’s songs and one of the things I enjoy is listening to different aspects of the music, notation of the instrument, vocal tone, etc. I feel you and Bobby were so great at laying down your music with such quality and what I think deliberate delivery. Leads and back-up instrumentals are very well done; instruments aren’t playing over each other or the vocalist. Bobby’s lead voice and tenor are surpub. I have a lot of questions I’d like to ask from time to time if that’s OK. One question you answered many years ago at a festival (I think it was Jim Orange’s festival up near Harrisonburg or Charlottesville VA - can’t remember). I asked you what kind of banjo strings you used and you pullled a pack of strings out of your pocket and the label read “Sonny Osborne Banjo Strings” - LOL. Take care - Bill
What a double feature! I guess there are some perks to being president. Sonny, any nerves before playing in front of a group like that? Did you and Haggard talk about anything before the concert? How was it meeting the folks after the music?
ken
Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 03/25/2019 17:50:09
the Osborne Brothers. They are not really known for having good timing which is one of the qualities that every **great** rhythm guitar player I've ever encountered had."
I HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN YOU MR. (FLAT PERFECT TIMING) SHARP.
Ken, I don't think Nixon had time to be nervous...he was too messed up with Watergate, which broke out in earnest about three weeks after this event.
OH, you mean were WE nervous....I gotta admit, yes...realizing where we came from and where we were...it's a long way from Thousand Sticks Kentucky to The White House. Nixon's family, Eisenhour's Grandson, Kissinger, ....the whole shooting match were the audience. We were given the grand tour and that place is awesome. They told us it was self contained and could exist for a number of years, if need be. I realize, it sounds as though I'm bragging, and I admit...I am....but it's out of being proud of being a red blooded American.
Merle was a little shook too. At one point during "Fighting Side of Me" he dropped his Guitar pick. Merle and I didn't discuss being there before or after. Nor do I think he discussed it with Bobby.
Nixon came to the Opry sometime later and Bob Ewbanks (NEWLY WED GAME)and I were standing backstage and as Nixon left had to pass rather close and he recognized me... he walked over and pointed at me and said.."Osborne, from Kentucky." Without doubt..I was the most surprised person in the house that night.
Still sounds like I'm bragging....sorry about that. I don't mean it to sound that way.
We were in a small room, with Nixon, after the music, in a receiving line. Everyone was very complimentary. I thought it rather funny, most of them, only because they felt it was their duty to do this, and probably most had never heard Bluegrass Music before. If that were the case...they would never be able to say that again.
I wonder, now, if they realized just how bad our timing was. What do you say MR. SHARP? Reckon they did?
Afterward, there was another room set up with a 30-50 foot table with every kind of food and champagne known to man. With which everyone in the house did partake.
Sonny, thank you for your answers. It is a great situation to be able to know and about and get some of the inside stuff on it. Hag dropping his pick.
If you don't mind, I have to weigh in on Mr. Sharp. First, I hope he does not spoil your enjoyment of coming to this site, because many of us really enjoy having you talk here. You have great talent and work ethic which has taken you to places of banjo and music thought, experience and abilities that so many of us here cannot even fathom and it is a treasure for us to see from your perspective. I mean, there are some serious love with the banjo with many here. I remember how lit up Ron Stewart got with a guy who was always putting Earl Scruggs down and after that experience, Ron has hardly been back.
A number of years ago I was in a meeting with some athletics administrators. They were my superiors on the organizational chart. In that meeting they started talking about Coach Bob Knight's weaknesses and they came to the consensus that he was not a very good game time on the court coach. And I am sitting there thinking, wow, these guys are not that good at their job, some were even poor at their job. How could they think they knew anywhere near as much as Knight on his job to judge him about it. I mean, if they knew that much why were they not making his salary and winning 3 NCAA titles and an Olympic gold medal? The sense I could make of it was that they had no awareness of their unawareness or their limitations. At that time I figured this was a good crowd for me to shut up around. I could be right as rain and they would have no clue.
Now I look at you and see you playing and recording with Mr. Bill Monroe himself at age 14? And I see you having two state songs and countless great records and a long career and some of the best playing ever (youtube.com/watch?v=kXCd_DC7FCQ). Then I remind myself that we lived in a world where an intelligent citizenry and high ranking public officials crucified Jesus and I just have to conclude again, that some are not worth listening to no matter how they say their words.
Sorry to go on so long. Sometimes i cringe at my relationship to the old Waylon song about "why does there always have to be one in every crowd standing up and crying out loud and why does that one always have to turn out to be me.
I appreciate your response so much. I enjoy doing this and have for a very long time and will continue until Mr.Schlang tells me "no mas!" Overlook my "Spaniard" if that quote was wrong! I think that's what the Mexican guy said to Sugar Ray Leonard...
MR. Sharp and his "expert" opinion doesn't bother me one bit. Originally, it kinda got to me a bit when he criticized some of the finest musicians in the world, let alone the greatest record producer and the man who was mostly responsible for creating "The Nashville Sound!" Owen Bradley. He oversaw our sessions for Decca and allowed us to actually produce ourselves. He made a statement once that I thought rather funny. He said; "Leave them alone, we don't know what they're doing but obviously they do...they sell records." He possessed the keenest ear I was ever associated with. He was also a great piano player. A true genius. So...Chris Sharp's statement quoted above doesn't bother me. He's entitled to his opinion. But. my Dad always when I would get totally "tore right on up" (quote borrowed from Raymond E Huffmaster) about something someone had said.."Consider the source and forget about it!" Good advice.
That is precisely the reason I always try to interject "In my opinion" in my sometimes ridiculous thoughts and statements. Unfortunately I forget to do that on occasion.
I don't ask anyone to agree with me...as I sometimes don't agree with any of you but I respect your opinion...and I only expect the same from you...collectively. It works both ways.
We're all just having a good time with each other. Even Mr. Sharp!I can see where it might sound as though there is anger involved but I assure you and all, there is none on my part. But...I still don't agree with him!!!!!!! HA.
I think when it comes to something as subjective as music, there is always room for differing opinions. But some opinions are more respectable than others...
In my way of thinking, there's another factor to take into consideration when talking about a group's or someone's playing style and/or timing: what were they going for? Is that a factor here? Unless one is in or was in on the discussions around the time the recordings were made and the decisions made as a result, the comments are just that comments. To me it would be better to ask questions about the why of such things rather than drop a comment without being informed. I'll go back to lurking now.....
Hi Sonny, if I may,, I’ve got a question : I saw you mention one time that when you were learning you kind of hit a wall,, then brother Bobby showed you the backward roll. Could you fill us in a bit more on that? Just curious, thnx. (Keep your stick on the ice)
Dr. O - I generally like to read the comments and think on what folks are saying. I try to keep my footprint on social media small; at least until I retire in a little over 3 years from now! By the way, these photos were taken at the Alamo shortly after I received this wonderful banjo from you way back on 2007.
Hi Sonny, I see where Jim Glaser passed away yesterday. What a great singer he was, and the harmony with his brothers was remarkable. The first time I saw you and Bobby was at the City Auditorium in Atlanta, in around 1966 and the Glaser Brothers were on the show. I remember talking with you back stage and all of the Glaser Brothers were cutting up with you guys. You all seem to have a fun time together. Another great singer and entertainer has left us.
I was 11, so that would have been somewhere in or near 1948 or perhaps 1949. Probably Christmas of 1948.
Bobby came home from Bluefield W. Va. where he was working with Larry Richardson. Bobby, Larry, Ray Morgan and Ezra Cline...who made up the Lonesome Pine Fiddlers. (Members of the IBMA Hall of Fame.)
Bobby had worked a couple dates with LESTER AND EARL and he was just as interested in the banjo as anything else. He heard me play and told me I was leaving out something. He didn't know what to call it, this was before rolls had names. He took the banjo and played a bit and I immediately knew what the problem was, and asked him to play that a few more times. I learned it and from that point my playing went in to high gear. The tune was Roll In My Sweet Baby's Arms...the part where it goes; 3 2 1 5 1 2 3. Man, I could have jumped through the roof when he showed me that. Suddenly everything made sense. And, get this...that's the last thing anyone ever showed me. (That's not bragging. Folks, I just loved it so much, that's all I did, Go to school, plow, disc, or drag...and feed hogs, The rest of the time, I played the banjo.) LITERALLY! I loved it, more than anything. Trying to sleep with a banjo in the bed is not easy...and the times I wasn't playing it, I was thinking about it! What an exciting life I led, huh!
Hah... I can identify, Sonny. In my early 20’s is when I got the banjo-bug bad. All my spare time was spent practicing & listening to you & Earl & others.
Thanks for telling about that roll Bobby showed you. It’s a good one.
here’s a couple of spots where you used it in “Sure-Fire” :
Jim Glaser was a friend and great, clear, high tenor voice. He, Tom Paul, and Chuck had an unbeatable trio. They were good...REAL GOOD!
Sorry to learn of his passing from this life.
Joel...good to hear from you and thanks for reminding me of a day from the past. ..1966 was a long time ago..I remember that day in Atlanta. The Glasers were on the show and although we knew them from the Opry, it was the first time we had worked with them on the road. It was amazing how they worked the mic with their trio. I seem to remember they came to Nashville as members of Marty Robin's band and I assumed they learned to work the mic from Marty as he did it the same way.
You have a good memory Sonny. That was a great show. You told me that night about Carlton’s Fincastle Festival that had been going on for a couple of years. You got me excited about going to the next one which was relocated to Berryville (1967), which ya’ll played at. By that time I had gotten a Vega Pro II banjo. You were so nice to take a 17 year old kid on the bus, critique his banjo and pick a tune for him. Thanks for your inspiration and kindness.
You commented a while back that after Bobby showed you that one lick that made things "click" for you that you never needed anyone to show you again. My questions: When you heard something did you see in your mind how the notes were on the banjo? Was is more of an aural thing for you?
After Bobby showed me the backward roll, it made the timing to everything work.
For that time, 11 years old, the main thing it did was make the notes all fit together. Later, after my playing began to move forward it became very easy because I could see in my mind where certain rolls...forward and/or backward would make the timing fit together....end when it should, if you will. If I played only forward it would be a couple notes too many and backward too few. I'm not saying it would be like this for everyone, but that's about how it worked for me. I'm not sure I explained that very well, but when the next rocket goes up you won't find me in the control tower.!!!!
I think I get what you're saying. For you, since you had heard and practiced these things, you internalized how things went in terms of number of notes in a roll. When you saw someone play the transition from one to the other the "Aha!" moment occurred. Back then it was a matter of hearing, playing, internalizing and hearing how it all fit. Since the advent of tablature too many of us have to "see" the notes on paper because we haven't internalized the notes from hearing as well as you and others had to in the "early days". Is that about it? For me, then, the take-away is to practice the rolls then listen to how the notes fit in a roll and then listen for how things are strung together for the melody and backup. The key: Listen!
I can see where it might sound as though there is anger involved but I assure you and all, there is none on my part. But...I still don't agree with him!!!!!!! HA. 
