mralston - Posted - 01/03/2008:  12:22:27

This post is about a synthetic banjo head material that I've been experimenting with, in case someone else is interested in a potential replacement for skin.

Last spring I wondered if there was a synthetic material available in bulk that could be used as a direct replacement for skin, i.e., use original tension hoop & flesh hoop.

I experimented with a bunch of materials, starting with a Tyvek(R) FedEx(R) envelope. If you look closely at a FedEx(R) envelope, you can see that it is made up of small swatches of more-or-less randomly oriented, spun material. This material appeared to be closer in structure to skin than homogeneous, plastic heads. I mounted a FedEx(R) envelope on a banjo head and was surprised how good the finished result sounded... boomy, good bass, fairly close to skin. Unfortunately, Tyvek(R) is fairly stretchy, and after about a week, the bridge had sunk down close to the dowel. Obviously, this material wasn't the answer.

I did some research on Tyvek(R), which is a radially-spun synthetic created by Dupont, in the same family as Kevlar(R). After some hunting around I found another synthetic in the same family and bought a large roll of the material. The material is roughly between Weather King(R) and Fiberskyn(R) in thickness, non-stretchy, unaffected by moisture, and heat-resistant. I've been trying this material out on banjos, ukes, & banjo-mandos, and it works well & sounds pretty good.

I posted some pictures of the material on my homepage to show how it looks and also to show how I have been installing it. http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...albumid=1267

It's non-stretchy, so you have to be pretty meticulous in mounting it so that you don't get wrinkles in the finished, playing surface. It's obviously not a replacement for Weather King(R) or Fiberskyn(R).... takes about an hour to install a head, but it might be of interest if you're trying to fit an odd-size head, or if you want to keep original flesh hoop & tension hoop hardware.

I gave out a bunch of samples at the Clifftop, WV festival last year, and the comments that I got were positive. This post is a little bit on the commercial side (to help me recoup the cost of the bulk roll that I bought)....... if anyone else is interested in trying out this material, I'd be glad to swap some samples for strings or parts.


Mark Ralston

banjonz - Posted - 01/03/2008:  12:38:00

I have seen and played a banjo that has been fitted with a 'plastic' sheet material which was described as somehow relating to Xray film. Now I have worked in the health industry and know that what is on this banjo is NOT Xray film. It might be something to do with the packaging of the film but I don't recognise it. Anyway, it is very stable, tight as and produces a clear, crisp and very loud sound. It is on a plectrum which is exactly what it need. I have also heard of experiments with artist's tracing paper.

Wayne
New Zealand

All reports are in: Life is now officially unfair.

Plectrum Banjoist - Posted - 01/03/2008:  14:59:41

When I rebuilt my basket-case Stromberg-Voisinet banjo uke, I used a sheet of drafting mylar to make a new head.
It worked great and the bjuke is loud as all get-out.

Marc L. Bordelon

trustybanjo - Posted - 01/07/2008:  12:11:07

Banjoers,

A testimonial about the banjo head material Mark Ralston is speaking of. I was recently asked to get an old Gibson Trap-Door mandolin banjo into playing shape. The original Jos. B. Rogers hide head was past saving. This is a nice old instrument from the early 20's with the Gibson ball bearing and tube tone ring system. The back has the trap-door that can be opened when playing.

Anyway, the head size is 9 1/8 inches. I did find a 9 1/8 fibreskin head but it was $50. Mark put a head on this instrument for much much less than the $50 price.

The sound to me is closest to a weather king head that is frosted on both sides, but it is somewhat warmer and helps the bass and mid-range tones more. It is very durable. Personally, I like a tight banjo head, and this material will stand the tightness. It also tightens pretty quickly. I have seen some heads that need weeks of constant tightening to get them stable to a tightness.

Mark's head also has a calf-skin appearance, but without all the negatives that go with natural materials--most importantly temperature and humidity sensitivities.

These heads Mark does are great for the odd-sized old banjos for clawhammer and frailing players. To me, they get more sound than hide heads. They are more "alive" than fibreskyn heads---and thus they are good for banjos that have little or no tone ring (old spun-over rim banjos, wood tone rings, little wonders, etc). Mark's heads are much warmer and bassier sounding than the rennaisance heads.

I have not tried them on a bluegrass banjo yet, but I think they would be similar to a double-frosted head, maybe a little bassier.

Best, Jerry Trusty


Jerry Trusty

dhergert - Posted - 01/15/2008:  19:43:37

Mark has very kindly provided some of his head material to me and I've been busy installing and testing it over the last couple of days. I can add some thoughts here now...

I'm quite excited about Mark's material, this is great stuff. If you're looking for a direct replacement for un-mounted skin heads, this is the best I've seen so far. I've installed it on two of my banjos so far and have plans for more as time allows. Those banjos are my steel strung ca. 1926 Gibson UB1 and my nylon strung ca. 1889 S.S. Stewart American Princess #2.

I will get some pics and sound bytes up for us to talk about.

I've never had good luck with skin, I just don't have the patience for it and always end up treating it like a plastic head, ultimately breaking it. As such I've tried a few things myself, like for the UB1, putting a cut-up piece of a Weatherking head on it... That worked, but the tone was sort of cold and plastic, and it never looked very good.

Jerry is right, this material produces a warmer, bassier tone, more like a good vellum. Volume is equal to that of a Weatherking or a Rennaisance. It is strong, while thinner than both, it holds tension like a Weatherking or Rennaisance. It looks more like a real skin head than a Fiberskin. And, it works around a flesh hoop like all of the old banjos were designed for.

Mark's head material on the UB1 has really given it a skin head tone with the plastic head volume. It now has the warmth that I want with this little old banjo, plus, with its steel strings, it still barks like it did with the Weatherking. And it looks great, just like a skin head.

I really liked the old Weatherking head on my Stewart and it is one of my main playing banjos, so I had to be really convinced before doing the re-head on it. The UB1 was convincing enough. On the Stewart with the Weatherking, I loved the subtle sweet tones, but never really got that muted punch out of it or the deep bass tone out of the unwound 4th string like I had hoped to get out of nylon strings. Mark's head material has provided that. And it's as loud and has better tone definition with this new material. Also like with the UB1, it looks great, more like a skin head than any man-made material that I've seen so far.

Next in line for re-heading with Mark's material is my late '70s StewMac RB3 copy. I had been thinking of putting a Rennaisance on it, but I'm pretty convinced this is the way to go now. Also somewhere in line are my 1964 Gibson RB-180 longneck and my 1923 Vega Style M Tub-A-Phone. I'm a little hesitant about my 1925 Gibson Style 3 Ballbearing, like the Stewart, it is one of my main players and I love the tone it has with it's old 1970s Weatherking. But if all the other banjos go as well as the UB1 and the Stewart have, the Ballbearing will be in line for this treatment too.

Installation is interesting with Mark's material. If you follow Mark's instructions, it will work. I've tried some variations of my own and have found my own variations to be either of no extra help or to actually hinder the operation. If you're wondering what the process is like, imagine installing a relatively thin but fairly stiff skin head -- dry -- where the skin doesn't fatigue and wear or tear due to the dry installation. It is more difficult than a wet skin installation during some stages, but easier than a wet skin installation during other stages. It is something that can be done well if you have skin head experience and if you follow Mark's instructions.

You will need a flesh hoop if you don't already have one. Mark and I are still discussing which is easier, a closed flesh hoop or an open one. My UB1 had the original closed flesh hoop, but my Stewart didn't so I made an open flesh hoop from accoustical ceiling hanger wire. Both worked. I found the open hoop harder to work with, but it was my first one and I will be using the same hanger wire for open flesh hoops with the rest of my banjos so I should be able to give a better assessment of this later on.

My understanding is that Mark is considering calling this the Yellowstone Banjo Head. Huge congratulations to him for the successful research and development work he has done. If you have a banjo that should have a skin head, or that you want a skin head on, but that you don't want to put real skin on it, that banjo is a good candidate for this and you might want to contact Mark.

One other note, I'll be at NAMM later this week and will be hanging around Greg Rich's booth at least initially with a few of my banjos. Mark has very kindly given me some of his head material to hand out if people are interested. If you'll be at NAMM and are interested in looking at this head material, or if you've had skin head installation experience and would like a free sample to try out on a banjo yourself, let me know and I'll give some to you. Mark also has some directions that either he or I can forward to you by email. If I can work it out, I'll have my UB1 and/or my Stewart there at different times to show for this purpose.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

TLG - Posted - 01/15/2008:  21:24:21

I too have tried this material. I agree with everything Don & Jerry said. I have installed 2 heads of this material. The second one I let the tennsion hoop sit on the head material on the pot overnight, not sure if that helped but I installed it without any pucker on the head.
A little harder than installing a skin but worth trying.
Congratulations to Mark for his work.

Tommy

dhergert - Posted - 01/16/2008:  06:48:21

Just a quick update. I went to a jam tonight with both the UB1 and the Stewart. It was a large circle jam, tonight with about 22 players. Music ranged from bluegrass to traditional to country. There were 3 to 4 banjoists and about as many mandolin players, one harmonica player, the rest guitarists. The music was mostly singing songs, but also a few instrumentals.

The UB1 screamed. The combination of steel strings, the small 6" pot and the new Yellowstone banjo head gave this little banjo a loud, woody voice that cut through all the other instruments. Everyone grinned at its size and was amazed at it's cutting power.

The nylon strung Stewart also could be heard but much more subtly unless I really pushed it. I got comments from the opposite end of the circle that this banjo could actually be heard above other banjos in the jam, and that its tone is now much more "old-timey".

Lots of fun. Obviously I'm very pleased with Mark's new head material.

I'll record some samples and pictures tomorrow evening and post them here.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

steve davis - Posted - 01/16/2008:  10:38:22

We recently had cellulose insulation installed.They used a very heavy duty vapor barrier that doubled as a containment for the blown-in cellulose.This plastic sheeting has what resembles tennis racket webbing in it and has a lot of tensile strength. Their logo says either Tpar-Pac or just Par-Pac with a patent number 5,365,716

Sometimes I just gotta wait for better weather

mralston - Posted - 01/16/2008:  14:35:22

Hi Steve -

I bet you need all the insulation you can get up there in Port Clyde. My brother lives a little bit up the coast from you in Camden, ME.

When I was checking out Tyvek(R) last spring I ran across a Dupont product called Home Wrap (R) which sounds like the material you used with your insulation. I thought that it wasn't rigid enough to be good material for a banjo head. Plenty of tensile strength, though. Also available @ hardware stores.

I also thought that the Home Wrap (R) material looked pretty funky to go on an old banjo.... your description is pretty accurate. Couldn't find a close-up picture of Home Wrap (R) on the web.....here's a close-up of the stuff that we're experimenting with, bigger picture on my BHO home page under "brass....".



Stay warm,


.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

steve davis - Posted - 01/16/2008:  19:15:58

Small world,Mark.I used to teach banjo at Northern Kingdom Music,but I got tired of the commute...I've seen a lot of good music at the Bayview Street Garage and saw David Bromberg at the Camden Opera House.Did your brother know Everret Basford?

Sometimes I just gotta wait for better weather

Edited by - steve davis on 01/16/2008 20:11:07

mralston - Posted - 01/16/2008:  21:40:39

Hey Steve -

Yep, small world. My brother has been in Maine for ~ 25 years, is a photographer, works with the Island Institute. I got on a fishing boat with him a few years ago for a couple of days & saw some of the islands around Camden, Vinalhaven, etc. Beautiful country. Didn't go as far south as Port Clyde, though. I noticed that a lot of the boats around Camden are working boats, compared to all of the pleasure boats you see around Bar Harbor.

Take care,


Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

mralston - Posted - 01/22/2008:  10:56:10

FYI, I posted an instructional video clip using a banjo with the synthetic head material at http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...tID=0&id=564, in case anyone would like to hear how it sounds on a tenor-to-5-string, converted Slingerland tenor played clawhammer style.

I've sent out a bunch of samples of the head material in the past couple of weeks...... any comments from users ??

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

Edited by - mralston on 01/23/2008 14:17:35

dhergert - Posted - 01/22/2008:  13:38:33

Hi Mark,

I've been intending to record some sound clips too, just been too busy with stuff. I love the tone of this head material.

I passed out this wonderful head material to a number of interested people at NAMM, along with your contact info and mine. Many of these people are probably just getting back from NAMM now.

I've used my two banjos that now wear the Yellowstone banjo head material in a few jams and in some performances now. I had thought it was just my perception, but other people have confirmed it, the Yellowstone banjo heads produce more volume on my banjos than their Weatherking equivalents did. I don't know if this is a function of head thickness, tension or some other setup option, but it seems to have made an observable difference...

I still hope to get some sound clips up sometime this week or this weekend.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

bluemule_77 - Posted - 01/22/2008:  22:12:19

Mark,

I just received the samples. I don't know how quickly I'll be able to install one -- I'm going to seek out help in the area as I've never installed a skin head. I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks!

BM

Tyri - Posted - 01/22/2008:  22:38:04

How would one go about procurring some of this material for trials? I've tried sending emails, but've received no response.

-Brywn

Gran Tyhris' favorite Scot

philly - Posted - 01/23/2008:  05:46:17

Hi Mark,

I haven't tried the new material yet....Great videos and I love the sound your producing from that converted Slingerland.
Looks like your strung with Nyl-guts on that, yes?

Phil in Chambersburg, PA

mralston - Posted - 01/23/2008:  07:02:49

Tyri - Please e-mail me privately with your mailing address and I'll send you some samples. I got your e-mail on Saturday, my reply must have gotten lost in the "www" ...... sorry about that.

BlueMule - be sure to check out the installation tip sheet that I e-mailed you, FYI, I posted another copy of the tip sheet at
http://www.yellowstone-jewelry.com/...o%20Head.htm

DHergert - I know you've been busy since Friday ....... I really enjoyed your YouTube playing the cello banjo at the AMM last week ! !

Philly - see private e-mail.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

GSCarson - Posted - 01/23/2008:  08:22:18

Mark - Looking forward and hope to install mine on my "test mule" standard Tubaphone pot this coming weekend if I can squeeze it in. I've had just about every head material out there on this banjo so its a good candidate for the test. Just checked out your installation photo sequence which will help. Thanks again,
Glenn C.

nittio - Posted - 01/23/2008:  22:03:16

Mark I have sent you several emails I'm sure you are getting alot of requests I'm willing to pay for some samples
Thanks

May all your picking be true!!

RK-R20
Williams Kenny Ingram #14 (March 2008)

Frank (nittio) O.

mralston - Posted - 01/23/2008:  22:47:37

Frank - some of my e-mail correspondence through BHO has gone astray. I tried to e-mail you again tonight... let me know if you don't get it. You can reach me reliably through my website (address on my home page), and I'll be able to reply reliably to your e-mail address. Sorry about the communications goof-up.

I should probably mention this to the webmaster, since you're the third person in the last week to whom my BHO-routed e-mail didn't go through.

Mark

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

Tyri - Posted - 01/24/2008:  02:06:48

Friend Mark. Thankyou for getting back to me. I'm looking forward to trying this material.

I've already lined up three bangers for testing: an old Stella (for practice), a Paramount A, and a 6-string z-banjo (8 and 3/8ths head).



All of my z-banjos have different-size heads- none, of course, anywhere close to a "standard" size. Up 'til now, my prime concern has been weatherproofing. I'm hoping this'll allow me to take them out of the house occasionaly, without that particular worry.

Take care.

-Brywn



Gran Tyhris' favorite Scot

dhergert - Posted - 01/24/2008:  12:15:52

Hi Mark,

This is cool, lots of people with lots of different banjos...

I've made the decision to re-head my StewMac NHAT OPF RB3 Mastertone clone that I built in the '70s with the Yellowstone banjo head. It's a good sounding banjo with a Weatherking head, but I've often felt that it needs some added depth and body to the tone, so this should be a fun change. The head that's on it has been on that banjo since I built it. This banjo is going to be a little complicated, but I'm already looking forward to hearing it. I'll probably try to do this re-heading on Sunday unless something comes up.

My wife and I have a TV recording session this weekend, we'll be filming 3 half hour shows. These weekly shows are not fancy, each just a live filming of a gospel sing-along program for a local satellite station (LLBN, "The Gathering Place"), but it's very fun and also good exposure. I'll be playing the Stewart with the Yellowstone head on it a lot for this session. People in the band have already heard it at practices and like the tone, so we're moving forward. The Stewart is a little louder with this head, so I'll be watching volume and listening to the mix carefully. I'm anticipating good things.

Have you heard back from any people at NAMM that I gave the Yellowstone banjo head material to yet? I hope we get some good responses.

Thanks again for making the Yellowstone banjo head material available. As you can tell I'm pretty excited about it.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

bluemule_77 - Posted - 01/24/2008:  18:40:57

Hey all,

A rainy day, today, but I had a banjo and a stack of Yellowstone head material from Mark, so it wasn't going to be a wasted day. I've never installed anything but a premounted mylar head before, and Mark cautioned me that this was a difficult process. It is not easy, to be sure, and I also urge anyone undertaking any kind of surgery on their banjo to be aware of what you're doing at all times, understand the process, and be ready to stop and ask questions if you aren't sure about something along the way.

If you'll visit the photos on my homepage you'll find a folder documenting today's experience. I consider myself successful after this, my first attempt. I did leave three fairly small puckers around the edge of the head, hardly visible in the photo. I may reattempt the process to see if I can eliminate these... but not today. It sounds good... I'd like to say more, but I need to play it awhile to really know how to describe the change. I'll be back with that report... stay tuned.

BM

philly - Posted - 01/24/2008:  20:05:17

Good Job, BM! You did great!

Phil in Chambersburg, PA

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 01/24/2008:  21:46:56

Seems like there was an article about Fiberskin heads recently, either in Banjo Newsletter or Old Time Herald. I believe it said the Fiberskin is a layer of Mylar bonded to a layer of Tyvek. I'll look for the article.
Paul

"A master banjo player isn't the one who can play the most notes. It's the one who can touch the most hearts." Patrick Costello

bluemule_77 - Posted - 01/24/2008:  23:15:57

Here's a question:

Do we know how much tension this material can take? Is there any fear that its tensile strength exceeds what the pot or hardware can handle? Has anyone busted one of these heads just with tension?

BM

dhergert - Posted - 01/25/2008:  03:30:50

Mark can probably answer this better than I, but also I had concerns of breaking the old brass hooks or stripping the brass nuts on my old S.S. Stewart.

Mark confirmed that this material can probably take more pressure than some hardware on older banjos can withstand.

So, I just did the work very carefully and evenly, and stopped when I had tuned the wolf tones in tune with my normal playing keys on this banjo.. My Yellowstone head is pretty tight now, probably a little tighter than the old Weatherking was before it, but it sounds great and nothing broke.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

mralston - Posted - 01/25/2008:  06:14:25

Hey Brian - Glad the installation went OK yesterday. I'll try to get some information from the vendor about tensile strength & comparison w/ Tyvek & Mylar.

I haven't failed any banjo heads by over-tightening. I've tightened a couple as tight as I felt safe without stripping nuts, deforming shoes, wrinkling metal-clad pot, etc., so my guess is that you'll fail hardware before you burst the head.

One thing I'm curious about, and maybe you can contribute an opinion on this sometime. I generally keep heads on my banjos medium tight to slightly slack. I've found no problem with stretching over time. Dhergert put a Yellowstone head on a banjo-uke which he said that he thought he noticed some settling or stretching (Don...... are you still seeing this?). I haven't noticed a problem with stretching over time, esp w/ a tight head installation....... anyone else have a comment about this?

By the way, one person e-mailed me for some samples of the "Tyvek" material. For the record, the material isn't Tyvek, but a 3rd cousin in the radially-spun synthetic family...... Better Living Through Chemistry.


P.S. ... I posted this and then saw that the topic rolled onto another page, missed Don's comment above. Don - how's your uke doing ??

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

Edited by - mralston on 01/25/2008 06:23:02

bluemule_77 - Posted - 01/25/2008:  09:40:26

Do you (all) find that you like this material at the same tension as other heads? I do have it purty tight right now... can feel the bridge from inside -- not so tight that its becoming convex! I think I'm a half turn from squeaking nuts. Will probably continue to adjust (down first) and try to find where I like it best. Definitely a fuller bass, one that I can feel sitting behind the pot. It's a bit rounder and mellower in general, like a very lightly stuffed pot sounded before but without any discernable volume loss. I'll admit that I haven't decided whether I'll keep it on there, but I'm also aware that it may need adjustment, and that sometimes "different" seems at first "less good" when really it is better and the ear just has to catch up. Playing one banjo with one setup for months, you come to expect a certain sound. I'm sure everyone can relate to this idea. My wife was away yesterday but will be back tonight and I'm going to employ her expert ear, and make her play the fiddle. ;) Post-installation, I have made my right thumb sore... something that has not happened before, despite hours-long evening practice time on some winter evenings in the past; I sat up quite late studying the results! I've also found that I sometimes have to walk away for a while and return just to play with out listening too analytically to decide if I like something. If I play an unfamiliar fiddle I often think mine sounds better... 'til I maybe borrow it a week or two and then mine'll sound funny. Anyway, the assessment continues. ALSO... Mark is promoting this as a stable replacement for skin heads on old banjos, and for that purpose I have no doubt that this product is a godsend.

BM

dhergert - Posted - 01/25/2008:  11:47:02

Hi Mark,

I saw the most settling on my Stewart with a 10" pot, but some on the banjo uke (UB1) too. Both of these had old Weatherkings on them though, so compared to them there had to be some settling. Also, these were my two first Yellowstone heads and my work around the flesh hoops were clearly pretty loose at first. So what I'm calling settling was probably the material pulling tight around the flesh hoop more than the material stretching.

Both banjos are doing great with this material. The UB1 screams with the Yellowstone material over it's 6" pot, yet has some slightly more bassy, old-time skin-head tone. The nylon-strung Stewart has a slightly muted, thunky report now, more like one would expect from a fine vellum, but the volume is louder than before.

Volume is pretty remarkable with the Yellowstone heads. That has traditionally been one issue that many people have concerns about when moving from plastic heads to skin. I'm still hoping to do my StewMac Mastertone clone on Sunday. That will be interesting. I'm anticipating good sounds from it.

I do have a question about long term wear and tear... I'm a 3-finger-style person, and I use fingerpicks all the time (Ernie Ball Pickie Picks), even on my nylon-strung Stewart. This results in very clear differentiation of the notes, so it's not something I'm interested in changing... But unfortunately, with fingerpicks you almost always have some pick contact with the head. Over time, with a plastic head, that contact wears through the paint with a Weatherkiing or raises fibers with a Fiberskin. With a skin head, or longer term, on a Rennaisance head it just eventually wears a hole through the material...

So, the question: Do you have any idea what wear patterns like this will do with a Yellowstone banjo head?

I'm guessing whatever it does, it can't be any worse than with a skin head. If wear becomes a big concern, I might put some of that clear postal tape (I think it's Mylar) over the top of the head, just where my picks hit it. As I've mentioned to you before, that tape has a remarkable affinity to the Yellowstone head material and could probably provide protection from pick strikes for quite a long time.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

mralston - Posted - 01/25/2008:  16:36:13

Don -

I can't really say about wear. I've been using this material since about last May or June, but I can't say that I play any one banjo more than a couple of hours a week, which isn't that much. Playing clawhammer, I can say that the material acts like hide.... areas that are hit by your fingers are buffed clean, and adjacent areas will pick up dirt. By the way, you can throw the material in the washing machine with a load of clothes without hurting it. I tried this to see if I could loosen the material up to make installation easier.... didn't hurt it, but didn't loosen it up.

According to the vendor, durability is supposed to be one of the traits of the material, but I'm sure that the developers never thought that their product would end up on a banjo. I guess time will tell about how the material wears.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

bluemule_77 - Posted - 01/25/2008:  20:26:18

Alright, the verdict is in. Having not played since last night, I picked up my banjo briefly mid-day, giving my ear some time to reset. No doubt about it, this head is staying on -- until I get another rainy day to attempt a pucker-free installation. (These puckers are really not noticeable unless you're lookig for 'em.) Not sure whether anything settled more firmly into place or I just had to clear my head, but it's great.

A question, however, and one I think I know the answer to: If I were to remove this head, would it have creased firmly enough to be useable again, or would it be immediately sacrificed?

BM

mralston - Posted - 01/25/2008:  21:34:30

Hey Brian -

From a couple of removals that I've done, the stuff seems to take a "set" almost like skin that has been wetted, stretched, and dried (picture of one of my first, almost successful installs below). You could probably take the head all the way off and it would keep the flesh hoop in a neat fold. I haven't tried to put one back on yet, but, for what they cost, I'd recommend that you use a new head (save the old one for a uke).

My first couple of heads were full of puckers, so it sounds like you did pretty well on your first.

You said you like the sound..... what style are you playing ?? Bluegrass? Clawhammer? Other ? Use finger picks?



Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

bluemule_77 - Posted - 01/25/2008:  21:47:03

Hey Mark,

I'm playing clawhammer. I shoulda mentioned that by now, souldn't I have?

I guess the only part of the process that makes me fear another attempt is being sure the "crown height" is going to come out right at the right tension. I consider myself very lucky, but the notch in the tension hoop is about flush with the end of the fingerboard at my preferred tension -- just like before. By the time I'd snugged things up, but pre-tightening, my tension hoop was more than the recommended 1mm above the head and I tried to work 'round the edges to gain some more slack. I really thought I was still gonna come out too high... or is it... too tight too soon. Other than that, I wouldn't fear the process, and I'm sure practice refines judgment. OR... am I thinking about this all wrong, and once the tension hoop has been pressed down in the early stages, that crease will always grab the flesh hoop, ensuring a proper height??

BM

mralston - Posted - 01/25/2008:  22:01:05

I would have guessed clawhammer by your banjo, but I thought I'd ask.

I think I understand your question. With a round flesh hoop, the last steps in installation are to press the head with your thumbs, tighten the nuts by hand & repeat. This slowly slips the head past the flesh hoop, and lets you work out puckers. I've done a few heads with square cross-section flesh hoops and, if I take my time with the thumb pressure & gradual tightening, they work pretty well, too. Installation gets better with practice.

Starting with the bottom of the tension hoop right at the top of the tone ring does two things.... 1) lets you fish the material between the flesh hoop & tension hoop, and 2) gives you the full height of the tension hoop to work down, snug up the flesh hoop, and work out puckers. I should probably edit the installation sheet about this.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

bluemule_77 - Posted - 01/25/2008:  22:19:38

Oh! I can pinpoint my confusion for you!

From the PDF:
"Finish with the tension hoop even with the tone ring or top of pot."

I mistook this to mean top of tension hoop even with top of pot. This also explains why I concluded to abandon my homemade long hooks for the regular ones. And, I don't recall whether any of my photos featured the pair of old, large Encyclopaedia Britannica volumes on the table, but they were what I'd employed to hold everything down while I got my four hooks in place! I feel a bit silly now... and I had probably just added another level of difficulty to my installation. D'oh! All's well than end's well, I guess...

Edited for clarification: But I did loosen the pair of hooks each side of the area I was working, and utimately wound up with about half the tension hoop above the tone ring -- which inspired my fear. I was attempting, throughout, to keep the head material atop the pot.

BM

Edited by - bluemule_77 on 01/25/2008 22:23:27

Tyri - Posted - 01/25/2008:  23:28:26

Ride 'em cowboy!

-Brywn

Gran Tyhris' favorite Scot

roger martin - Posted - 01/26/2008:  01:04:52

OK, I'm sold, Where can I get this stuff?

Roger MArtin

dhergert - Posted - 01/26/2008:  04:52:32

Ok... I did my no-hole-archtop one-piece-flange Mastertone copy today. I thought I'd at least get it started, and well, I was able to finish it...

I want to let it settle in for a couple of days, but so far It looks and sounds great. There is HUGE bass. The tenor side is fuller, not quuite as bright. Volume is huge. I'm very pleased.

As usual I had a couple of complications. First, the open flesh hoop was a pain, but I finally got it working ok. It had a gap which I situated to where the neck would join the pot. For the 2nd time (1st was with my Stewart), at the gap site I got a pucker. I really think that gaps in the flesh hoop is a source for that. I dismounted the head, patched the gap in the fleshhoop, and the pucker went away.

Of course I did some work to get rid the puckers other ways too...

Guessing it was time to find out what this Yellowstone head material could do, I stepped into the head after it was mounted. It held me. About 180 pounds. I turned and stepped and turned and stepped so my heel pressed each area of the head. I gained some slack in the head.

I re-seated it once and with that tightened it again. No problem. Between the head re-seating, the foot pressure and filling the open flesh hoop gap with the flesh hoop wire, the puckers disappeared.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

vernob - Posted - 01/26/2008:  06:28:42

I want some of this material. Give me the details.

Bruce Vernon

"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the banjo, but chooses not to." - Mark Twain

"Don't worry about mistakes. There aren't any." - Miles Davis

mralston - Posted - 01/26/2008:  07:09:53

Roger & Bruce - e-mail me privately with your mailing address & I'll send you some samples.

Don - As they say on the Guiness TV ad, BRILLIANT ! ! ! !!. I would never, in a million years, have suggested to someone else that they try dancing on their banjo, but I'm kinda glad you did (esp since you had no adverse consequences). The approach of using thumb pressure to seat the material is OK if you don't encounter major puckers, but puckers are a fact of life in installing this material, and the more ways available to deal with puckers, the better. I'm going make up a 8"-dia wooden disk & try kneeling on it to apply controlled pressure to seat the material. If this looks promising, I'll write this up in the installation tip sheet, along w/ some clarifications from Brian's comments above.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

mralston - Posted - 01/26/2008:  07:46:05

Roger and Bruce - try e-mailing me through my website (link on my homepage). I see that, Bruce, you e-mailed me early Friday morning, I e-mailed you back via BHO later on Friday morning, and also e-mailed you using your mac.com address last night as a backup. I think there are some glitches with my e-mails via BHO......I'll send another comment to the webmaster about the communications hiccup.


Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

Edited by - mralston on 01/26/2008 07:48:16

dhergert - Posted - 01/26/2008:  11:00:37

Btw, my wife and I had a practice last night for the TV flimings we'll be doing today. As it turns out, for it I'll be playing my Stewart *and* my UB1, both which have Yellowstone heads. Everyone at the studio loves the sound of the new heads.

I'll also be playing my Ballbearing Mastertone today, which still has an old Weatherking head on it. I'm starting to get a personal reaction to the "brightness" of the Ballbearing , it sort of sends a shock wave through me when I start playing it. I still like like this banjo with the Weatherking, but we'll see after a few weeks of listening also to my Mastertone copy, now that it's got the Yellowstone on it. I may end up converting the Ballbearing sometime too.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Edited by - dhergert on 01/26/2008 16:00:56

dhergert - Posted - 01/27/2008:  16:41:06

Well, it's been almost 48 hours since I installed the Yellowstone head on my Mastertone copy. I got it out this morning thinking I'd play a bit and then tune the wolf tone, but during the last two days as the head settled the wolf tone, previously at C#, has moved down to about B, so I'm going to leave it.

The tone is wonderful. It is fuller, more bassy than ever, and loud. Sustain is slightly diminished, but still strong. Tone separation is excellent.

I've often said here in Hangout that you can never just change one thing on a banjo. Changing a head like this on a bluegrass banjo, the banjo is basically completely disassembled, except for pulling the tuners off of the neck and the lugs out of the resonator. Everything else comes off. And clearly, during re-assembly there are some things that have changed that I'll never know about. Some people disassemble their banjos and re-assemble them without changing any parts, just to improve the tone. John Hickman is one of them, he's known to have done this within the hour before a show, and then was up playing this same banjo and it sounded great.

While the head is the only thing I've intentionally changed on my StewMac Mastertone copy banjo, I'm sure other things have changed. That said, the tone on this no-hole archtop banjo is excellent now. That thinness that I had concerns about with it before is completely gone. My other banjo that I play most often when I play bluegrass, a '25 Gibson Ballbearing Mastertone, is known for its full, deep, sweet and vibrant tone. The StewMac Mastertone copy sounds very similar to it now, perhaps now only missing a little of the sweetness and missing the natural vibrance that normally comes with the Ballbearing Mastertones. But what the StewMac is missing of the sweetness and vibrance, it more than makes up for with that bass and fullness. And it's volume is huge.

The tone on this archtop is so good now that I can see that it is going to be a difficult decision for me about whether to put the Yellowstone head on the Ballbearing Mastertone. I'd love that strong full bassy tone that the StewMac has now on the Ballbearing, but at the moment I'm hesitant to change much on the Ballbearing that might diminish it's brightness, sweetness and vibrance. We'll see after a week or two, though...

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

switzforge - Posted - 01/27/2008:  20:39:34

Just stumbled accross this thread. Sounds like some great stuff. Did I miss where to purchase?

Will play Banjo for food, will stop playing banjo for money.

John Switzer
Beulah, Colorado
www.blackbearforge.com

dhergert - Posted - 01/27/2008:  22:23:32

Hi John,

Mark Ralston (mralston here in Hangout) is the person to contact. He has done all the research on this "Yellowstone Banjo Head" material and is letting a number of us test it on our banjos.

Mark has reported that he's been not getting all the emails that people have been trying to send him through the Banjo Hangout email system, so I'd recommend going to his Hangout homepage, then follow the links to his website directly, where his email is also available directly.

He'll probably also respond to your post here...

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Edited by - dhergert on 01/27/2008 22:25:31

dhergert - Posted - 01/29/2008:  05:35:20

Well, flushed from the success with my StewMac Mastertone archtop copy, I thought long and hard today about putting a Yellowstone banjo head on my Ballbearing. I came to the conclusion that if I didn't do it, I'd always wonder what it would sound like.

Soooo, this afternoon I did it. The Ballbearing now sports a nice Yellowstone banjo head...

As with all of my banjos so far, I made some discoveries and re-discoveries about my Ballbearing in the process of re-heading it. I found a few things wrong and made some minor repairs.

This was the smoothest Yellowstone install of all of mine so far. I attribute that to spending more time carefully rolling my flesh hoop. Even though it isn't solid, it worked better. I did do the full-weight pressure again on the head and did re-seat the head once. I was able to get rid of most of the puckers, those small ones that remain can stay without being a problem.

Ballbearing Mastertones are a different animal than regular banjos. The tone ring floats on 48 washers, 24 springs and 24 ballbearings. Like with any synthetic head on this banjo, the completed Yellowstone head tightens to a point, then it begins compressing the springs. And, with Ballbearing Mastertones, you never want to compress the springs enough that the tone ring rests on the rim, as that will deaden the tone. So, with all this in mind, I've left the Yellowstone head on this banjo a little slack compared to the other banjos I've put this material on, and I'm not sure how much I will tighten the head on this banjo.

That said, at this early interval, it sounds great as it is. That full, bassy tone is there now and I didn't loose any of the brightness, in fact there seems to be more. The characteristic sweet vibrant Ballbearing tone is there. And consistent with the other banjos I've put the Yellowstone head on, the Ballbearing is already louder than it was with the Weatherking.

Ballbearing banjos settle in like any others, so I'll see how it sounds tomorrow and over the rest of the week. I already know the Yellowstone head is a keeper on this banjo, I just don't know if I'll try to tighten it anymore.

I have one other old banjo I'll probably put the Yellowstone head on, that being my old Vega Style M Tub-A-Phone. I'm not sure when I'll do that one. I've decided to leave my Gibson RB-180 with it's original Weatherking head on it.

This week I'll also try to do a video of my four old banjos that have the Yellowstone heads on them.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Emiel - Posted - 01/29/2008:  05:39:16

I'm looking forward to your video!

Emiel

http://www.flickr.com/photos/emieldk/
http://www.bluerounders.com

mralston - Posted - 01/29/2008:  07:47:16

Hi Don - thanks for posting the reminder of where to get the heads. I also encourage people to look at the first post in this topic, since this is an experiment with a potential new banjo head material. People who are interested in getting samples of the head should e-mail me directly and let me have their mailing address. I think that I've worked out the bug in my e-mailing via BHO.

Don - personal thanks also for your interest in this material, and for sharing your experiences. I'm a newcomer to BHO, and I thought that BHO would be a good forum to see if other people like the head material as much as I do.... it is. I've never met you, but your comments tell me that you've got a pretty sharp ear and you're very articulate about your experience with the material.

I've sent out quite a few samples; today I'm mailing a few to the US , some to Netherlands, and some to Ontario. I've had a handful of comments, hope to hear more as people try it out. So far I'm still in the red as far as recouping my costs in the material, but my costs are modest ..... responses have been pretty favorable so far, and my payoff may be the satisfaction of this becoming a useful material. By the way....... I decided to get another roll of the material..... now have enough for another 250 of the 15" x 15" size that will do up to 11" pots.

I'm curious about your question about how the material will wear. I did some adjustments to the setup on the banjo that I gave to my step-daughter..... she was the second user of the banjo, and it has gotten quite a bit of use over about 6 months, shows a small amount of fiber separation. Will take close-ups of the wear areas & post.

Looking forward also to your video! ! ! !

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

Edited by - mralston on 01/29/2008 08:35:56