mralston - Posted - 02/16/2008:  06:54:16

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Well, at least I changed the subject from cashing in on Yellowstone banjo heads.

The first time I heard someone talk about using fake fingernails, it challenged my manhood, too. I saw a couple more people using them, and, along the way, I started playing almost entirely on Nylguts. Maybe something is wrong with my diet, but the Nylguts definitely erode my fingernails. I got over the gender identity issue, tried the fake fingernails, and was glad I did. You can try them in the privacy of your home and, if you do, there's a chance that you'll like them a lot. Maybe this deserves another BHO topic, but, then again, there's the precedent of the "BURLILE TONE RING" thread.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

roger martin - Posted - 02/16/2008:  07:20:47

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LOL , I was kidding about the pantyhose.Actually using fake nails for picks ( if they work) makes a lot of sense.But the next thing ya know, some guys gonna start a trend by showing up with pearl inlaid nails , and start a whole new aspect of the banjo hobby lol

Roger MArtin

dhergert - Posted - 02/16/2008:  11:24:49

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I'm not a frailer, but a few jam friends are and they do use the fake nails. They do sound great, too...

I don't know if they would work for bluegrass though, the basic down-stroke for clawhammer might be easier on a bonded nail than the upstroke for picking. Hard-picking bluegrass players often complain that they cannot even keep their picks on, so there might be added difficulty with keeping the fake nails on a finger...

That said, just like with the tone of a Yellowstone head, the tone of a fake nail is very nice, more like that of a regular fingernail.

In classic-banjo, fake nails would be 100% the way to go, consistent with classical guitar too.

For me, I used to be a huge nail biter and finally stopped as a kid 1) when my fingers hurt too much to play banjo and 2) I began clipping them instead. Except for my thumb nails, my fingernails are characteristically clipped short to the quick... I'd honestly be afraid I'd start biting again with fake nails, and at my age, I'd probably also end up with broken teeth. Nail biting is a very hard habit to stop.

I may try fake nails sometime though, just to hear it on my classic banjo, re-live a little history.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

roger martin - Posted - 02/16/2008:  12:16:46

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I just slapped a couple of pics of my 1st attempt at installing a "hide" head.This banjo is rough but does tell me what works well and what doesnt.
Sounds better then it looks ( thank God) lol
I seem to have this thing about wanting to make as much of a banjo in the shop as I can.It would be much easier to order parts and install,but I have to do everything the hard way.

Roger MArtin

dhergert - Posted - 02/16/2008:  18:46:23

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Re: doing it the hard way... Some might say that's what we're doing with the Yellowstone heads, but the rewards are pretty amazing. I have caught myself wondering if using a flesh hoop alone is part of what makes a difference in tone and volume. It probably contributes, but how it would do so, I couldn't guess.

Whatever the case, in my opionion the extra work to install a Yellowstone head in combination with a flesh hoop is well worth it when you listen to the tone and volume difference...

I was performing with my Ballbearing Mastertone this morning and was just loving how little effort it takes to truely penetrate a room now. And it's not just the increase in volume or just the change in tone... It's the combination of the two that makes the difference.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

mralston - Posted - 02/17/2008:  09:38:18

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A couple of people speculated whether or not the Yellowstone heads can be taken off and replaced. FYI, I tried this out on a banjo mandolin this morning. This instrument has a split (unjoined) flesh hoop, and I removed the flesh hoop from the head after I removed the tension hoop. The head had taken a set and closely conformed to the flesh hoop, but I couldn't get the head back on successfully, probably in part because the flesh hoop wasn't joined. I applied a moderate level of effort, i.e., didn't try any heroics to get the head back on.

I'm guessing that, even with a joined flesh hoop, it would be very difficult to remove the head and re-install. W.N. suggested trying some type of adhesive to bond the material to itself just above the flesh hoop. The material is pretty inert, and I don't think that it can be solvent-welded.I 'm going to get info from the vendor to see if there is an adhesive that will bond the material & try out W.N.'s idea.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

Tyri - Posted - 02/17/2008:  12:42:37

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Good morning, all. Thankyou, Mark, for the samples. Everyone likes the color, though some have made comments about pulling a head dry.

I started my first pull earlier this morning. So far, so good. This is after about an hour. I'm sure they'll get faster with the "P" word, but this wasn't bad as far as learning curves usually go. The tip sheet was clear and concise. You do good work.


One of the youngn's finally came over and fixed whatever was keeping my computer from accepting u-tube, so I took a break to watch the videos (and make some fresh coffee ).

Excellent job, Mark! You can't make it any clearer than that. Although, in my case, I had to put the ring on the floor, line everything up, and stand on the rim (and bounce, and turn ), to force the ring down about the top. Yee. Hah.

Since the others are already lined up, I figure I'll' go ahead do them all today, though the stringing, etc. will take a bit longer. I'll definitely let y'all know.

Afetr hearing Don's comments, I have to say, I'm really looking forward to hearing how this material sounds. All of this first group are kid's instruments. They all really liked the fact that it would look so much like the hides it was replacing, but stand up to late-night humidity (AND use the original flesh hoop ). So. Now I'm going to have to get more, so I can hear what it sounds like on my toys!

Y'all have a fun day! -Brywn


Gran Tyhris' favorite Scot

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Edited by - Tyri on 02/17/2008 13:23:30

Tyri - Posted - 02/17/2008:  12:47:56

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Oh! Yeah!

I tried a few glue samples on scraps (you've probably done this, too)- no joy. Wood glue, elmers, krazy, and 'poxy- it all pulled apart. Though the lightly scuffed-and-epoxied surface tore when I pulled it. Maybe with slow-set epoxy, one would have sufficient time to finish pulling. Application would be interesting.

More later.

-Brywn

Gran Tyhris' favorite Scot

dhergert - Posted - 02/17/2008:  13:53:44

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Hi Mark and all,

Mark, you may remember my first effort to rehead a banjo was my ca. 1926 Gibson UB1, a 6" pot banjo uke... I mentioned that in an effort to not use a whole sheet of head material I cut the 15"x15" sheet into quarters and used one of the quarters. In theory this would work, however given the geometry of the flesh hoop and all, it left me a little short on 2 sides as I was looking for material to pull up and tighten over the flesh hoop. Having gotten this far, I tried a few methods, none would work, except...

I tried some of the wide clear tape that is available at the US Post Offices. This tape comes on a blue plastic spool with a cutter edge attached, and is probably a thin mylar with some sort of strong adhesive. It is tough, doesn't tear easily and is made to adhere though all the rigors that the mail has to test it with. It usually does a pretty good job in the mail, so I tried it on some scraps of Yellowstone head material first and found it had an amazing abilitiy to hang on.

This adhesive bond was so good that I was able to build up the sides of the head for my little UB1 with the Postal tape and with that, was able to finish the head. When I cut the Yellowstone scraps off the edge of the head, the tape cut off too and still adhered well. There are still bits of it around parts of my flesh hoop on this banjo, hanging on like the day I put it on to finish this head.

Having seen this, I would be willing to bet that one could build up the sides of a removed Yellowstone head enough with this wide clear Postal tape to once again pull it up tight around the flesh hoop as the head is re-mounted. Alternatively, this tape might even work to adhere the Yellowstone head material around the flesh hoop and back to the top of the head to mount the head as if it were a pre-formed head. These are things I've not tried, but having seen how strong that bond was, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see it work.

Mark, you may remember we spoke of how this tape actually lifted the "hairs" in the grain of the Yellowstone material when I removed the tape, making that head look more like a real skin head. That is how strong the bond is with this clear wide Postal tape.

Anyway, these are just some ideas... If I were faced with dismounting and re-mounting an existing Yellowstone banjo head, I'd definately have this Postal tape handy.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

dhergert - Posted - 02/18/2008:  17:12:37

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Ok... I wanted to hear it. I just put a Yellowstone on my 1964 Gibson RB-180 Longneck banjo. This banjo came stock with a flathead Mastertone tone ring and since I hadn't heard Yellowstone heads on a flathead Mastertone yet, the curiosity was getting to me...

Wow, this thing growls now. Bass is turned up high, tone is skin like but louder than before. It's consistent with the way Yellowstone has affected all of my other banjos. But on this banjo, it changes it from an "ok playing banjo" to one I really want to play and hear more. I think I'll be using this lonkeck a lot more now.

My last banjo to put a Yellowstone on is my Vega Style M Tub-A-Phone... That'll probably be a week or so, I want to play my longneck for a while now...

BTW, Mark I finally understand why you like the spit flesh hoops. They are hugely easy to install that way if your instruction video is followed. Wow, Thanks!!!!

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

dhergert - Posted - 02/19/2008:  12:35:58

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And one more...

I had a friend visiting yesterday afternoon, the one I mentioned earlier who is a banjo player for a local working band. He brought his 1925 Style 5 Ballbearing Mastertone, and after listening to my 5 banjos that now wear the Yellowstone heads, decided he wanted one on his Ballbearing. I offered to install one for him; he had a few guitar lessons to go teach and could be back by 10pm.

We started the work together. I already had a Mastertone size flesh hoop made, so that part was already done. While he was still around I disassembled and examined his banjo. Everything was fine, there were few surprises. I began mounting the head and before he left had the flesh hoop installed and the head pulled up under the tension hoop. As I began tightening everything down a bit, things looked pretty good...

I tightened things down and began cutting off the excess. Unfortunately as I was doing so I nicked the head as it goes over the tone ring, leaving about a 1/4" gash. It didn't rip, but it did separate a bit as the tension pulled at the material. The special cutter blade that Mark shows in his video could not have made this kind of cut, so I highly recommend getting some of them (I know I will). Anyway, I couldn't see leaving this, so decided to start again from scratch...

This was at about 7pm, my friend would be back at around 10pm. I knew I could do it, but I also knew I had to hussle. Happily I had not reassembled the banjo yet, so really the re-do job was less involved than if I had needed to start from scratch. I disassembled again and put on a new head, pullied it up and reassembled his banjo just in time. We sat playing it and mine and comparing tone. And he loved it, he got this huge grin on his face as he played...

He also has two or three other Mastertoness, including a one or two other pretty valuable pre-wars, and he is already talking about which ones of them he also wants to have the Yellowstone heads on. Mark, I've given him one of your cards so he can contact you about acquiring Yellowstone Banjo Heads as he needs them.

After doing 3 Yellowstone banjo heads yesterday my hands and knees are very sore . But it was worth it to see that grin on his face as he played.

A few things are clear comparing the Yellowstone heads with Weatherking heads... Tone ring banjos seem to all get a significant skin-like change in tone and a noticable boost in volume with the Yellowstone banjo heads. In my experience, non-tone ring banjos get the skin-like change in tone, but more subtly, they loose some sustain and get better note separation, with noticable volume increase when the banjo is punched.

Another thing that seems clear is that there has to be a easier and more reliable way to get the dimples out without the tough muscling that we've all been doing -- the muscling takes a long time, doesn't always work and after two or three installations, the installer's hands are beat. I'm working on a simple vice-grip related lever tool for this that allows applying gentle but firm pulling pressure over the slightly loose flesh hoop to absorb the excess material in the areas of the dimples. I'll report back about this tool as soon as I've had a chance to test it more.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Tyri - Posted - 02/19/2008:  20:25:23

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Friend Don: I've been feeling your pain since Sunday.

I was determined to make a dent in the "personal" project's pile, so I pulled all five. The good news is, it does get faster with the P word. The bad part: I can't seem to get a good grip with any tool (so far), without tearing!

I have small hands, bony fingers, limited gripping stregth, and only one works consistently. On the last two heads, I started putting the hooks on- loosely- as I folded the sides up. By making a few more trips around, I was able to achieve a similar end product.

But, man!, those hoop-wrinkles are impossible! If I hadn't been in such an all-fired drive to get them done before I had to report back to the "real world", I would have taken them back apart, and started over. On mine, without the background whine of "I NEED it!", I'll go slower, and backtrack as neccessary to get it perfect.

No wrinkles on the face, but three of the five had a small "loose spot", really only noticeable if you run your finger around the rim.

Without getting into too colorful adjetivery, I must say, I love the way this material sounds! All the reviews so far have been positive. My problem with the Fyberskin is the difficulty finding a balance that still gives a good volume, and good clarity top to bottom. I've had less difficulty with the Renaisance heads (except for the whole "flesh hoop" issue), but the Yellowstone material does sound more like a really good-quality calfskin! (How's that, Mark? )

No. Really, it does sound more like hide. As Don said, much more bass, and a marked increase in volume, but more balanced than the Rens, without the sharp decay (o.k., dangit, flatness) of the Fybs. Much more importantly, to me, the clarity was decent-to-good with a variety of head-tensions! This last made the set-up a breeze. I went a bit tighter on the hollow brass tube tone ring, than on the solid 5/16" steel ring. One has a pseudo-archtop ring- I loosened this one the most, to get a good, loud, bass that could compete with the incredible upper end.

I did notice that I'm not cranking down on the material as I would if it were a Remo, although I was still aiming for the G- G# range. The taughtness and pitch are there, but without any stretch (hardly), it takes fewer turns of the nuts to get there. Set up, the bridges depressed the heads about 3/32" to 3/16". I'm really looking forward to hearing how they fare under more hostile conditions than my shop. The tool-tearing was scary- we'll see how this material stands up to kids with picks.

Regarding my dance technique to get it all started: On the second one, I put on my steel-toed workboots- the bottoms are flat and large enough to span the width of the rim.

Tip: NEVER let the owner see you dancing on their instrument with steel-toed boots.

Don: The next chance I get, I might try your idea of building up the edges with tape and re-pulling, to see if I can get the hoop-wrinkles out. Good one.

Thankyou again, Mark.

-Brywn




Gran Tyhris' favorite Scot

bluemule_77 - Posted - 02/19/2008:  20:45:19

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Great report, Brywn... but I'm wondering about the bridge depressing the head up to 3/16"? On the surface, (pun intended) that sounds like an awful lot, but maybe I've never fully studied on how much depression actually occurs across the whole head. Some measurements are on my schedule now. Anyone else have opinions on ideal tension? ("Whatever sounds good to you!")

BM

mralston - Posted - 02/19/2008:  20:48:23

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Hey Brywyn -

Yep, these heads are NOT easy to install..... definately not a drop-it-in installation. I've been compiling feedback from people who have tried different tricks to install the heads, and I think that the YouTube clips numbers 11 through 13 focus on the steps that will prevent puckers or high spots. Sixteen video clips is a lot to go through, but I think that these steps will let you get rid of the puckers & high spots.

I guess the good news is that the puckers and high spots tend not to detract from the sound, but they're definitely an aesthetic issue. With practice, it should be possible to install without any puckers or high spots. You might also want to try using the "CPR" technique...... depressing the head with the heel of your palm as you intiially tighten down the head (video clip #12). I think that this might give you more control than stepping on the head to seat the material.

Other people have noticed that you are likely to rip the material if you use tools to pull it. If you follow the steps in the clips, i.e., loosen the 4 hooks & nuts as you pull the material up under the tension hoop, you should be able to pull the material up without tools. Easy for me to say, since I've had a lot of practice, but definitely do-able without tools.

Also glad you like the sound ! ! I'm re-heading a banjo-mandolin this evening and I've just started the tightening-down process...... I tapped the head with my finger while it's still very slack, and the sound is very interesting.... will try an installation w/ very slack head to see what this sounds like.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

dhergert - Posted - 02/19/2008:  21:24:27

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I guess part of the complication for me has been with the Ballbearing banjos, mine and my friends... For them, you really never get to crank down the head that much, you never want to compress the springs to the point that the tone ring sits on the pot. On my banjo that means the bridge had significant sag in the middle, but I'm beginning to think that that is because of the way I pressed on that head. I did the pressing by hand, but I remember pressing a bit too much in the middle of the head, which may have left a tendancy for a depression right there under the bridge. It might also have something to do with the build of the bridge.

Happily my friend's Ballbearing did *not* suffer from this sagging at all. I did conciously avoid heavy pressing in the middle of the head, though, and he does use a different kind of bridge than I do.

Whatever the case, both banjos sound wonderful.

Regarding the puckers, as you have mentioned, Mark, tools will tend to rip the material. I am hoping to find a way to rubber sandwich the material between jaws of a vicegrip so no metal touches it as I leverage it up over the properly cusioned tension hoop. That may or may not work. As you know I've tried the CPR and dancing techniques, as well as the loosening of the 4 nuts and pulling up (a lot), but still have not completely controlled the puckers yet. it's getting better though, fewer puckers, so maybe I'm getting closer to it. I'll keep trying, whether or not the vice-grip with rubber padding works.

Brywn, welcome to the red-hand club. We can shake when our hands aren't so sore .

The overwelming response I'm getting from listeners, though, with or without puckers, is that the tone and volume from the Yellowstone heads is noticably improved. For non-banjo people to recognize that means that the difference has to be somewhere near dramatic. And that's what I would call it. And the look is so close to skin that most people can't tell it isn't a prime calfskin head.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Tyri - Posted - 02/21/2008:  02:01:46

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Whoops! Thanks, Blue. You're right- I was looking at the wrong end of the ruler. I meant 3/64" to 3/32".

The smaller area of the archtop had the best balance with a depression of a good 1/8". That'n was also the easiest, and cleanest, pull so far. Since the bottom of the tension hoop is just below the edge of the rim, I had an easier time spreading the wrinkles.


Friend Mark: Anything positive on the slack-head mando?

The uke crowd is a-buzz! The "standard" Nylguts RING, and an increase in volume has been noted.

Y'all have fun!

-Brywn

Gran Tyhris' favorite Scot

roger martin - Posted - 02/21/2008:  06:35:49

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The look of the head on the one banjo I've installed so far is awsome.My banjos are what I call "rustic" so this stuff just simply looks ,,right.I had planned to sell this one but, it seems I have been reaching for that one to pick on ,instead of my ALMOST new Goodtime.No slam on the Goodtime, I just like the sound of the Yellowstone.
And,,,,,,,,,,am now wondering if I could get a few more pieces from Mark .This stuff is a winner.

Roger MArtin

dhergert - Posted - 02/21/2008:  12:36:11

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My pro-banjoist friend and I jammed last night and he had me adjust his action a bit. His old Style 5 Ballbearing is sounding really good and he's very happy with it. I'm looking forward to hearing and seeing him play it in the band. Over time he will decide what if any other banjos he wants Yellowstone heads on.

When my friend was at my house on Monday we looked over and played the 5 banjos I had re-headed with Yellowstone heads for a little over an hour. It became pretty clear what to expect as far as tone and volume are concerned. The steel string banjos were all louder. The Mastertone style banjos acquired an easy punch volume response that they didn't have before. The nylon strung banjo also acquired a similar punch, but it has to be picked harder to reach that point. All of the banjos sounded dryer, brighter, with better tone separation and more like skin. This is also now consistent with my friend's Ballbearing Mastertone.

With all of these banjos I've also noticed that the sweet spots for playing have changed. I'm still re-learning those sweet spots. It seems these banjos all have better punch-response near the bridge than they did before and they don't sound as pinched there as they did before. Playing up halfway between the bridge and the neck, the sweet tone starts increasing, but it is still punchable for volume there. Sweetness and sustain increase as I get near the neck joint, but the dry skin-like tone is still present. Picking over the last frets of the fingerboard, the sustain and the sweet tone are maximized, with the tone mellow, less skin-like to my ear, more similar to what it was with the Weatherking heads at this location picking over the fingerboard.

I've got another pro-player friend I want to have hear Yellowstone heads on my banjos... I'll see if I can reach him... In the mean time, I've started hand exercises .

Mark, Roger's words are true. This stuff *is* a winner. I would never have guessed that a head by itself could improve tone and volume so dramatically.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

mralston - Posted - 02/23/2008:  05:58:22

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Has anyone tried the Yellowstone material on a tackhead installation ? A couple of people have asked me about this, and I haven't tried it out myself. I suspect that, because the material has a grain, it may be prone to ripping along the "weak" orientation. Also....... I can't think how you might obtain tension for a tackhead using a head material that, unlike animal skin, can't be made to shrink.


Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

dhergert - Posted - 02/23/2008:  07:47:05

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Hi Mark,

I've also wondered this. However, there are other synthetics that are used on tamborines, which are tackheads...

I suspect it would work as long as the stretching was done carefully, and the tacks are over the edge allowing some flowing of the material over the edge. The big question is whether it would rip from the tacks over time.



Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Tyri - Posted - 02/23/2008:  09:55:50

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Good morning, folks!

In the 70s, I used to glue dry goatskin to ceramic shells using a "press" made from two pieces of plywood and four 1/4" threaded rods. I guess I'm thinking you could use a similar set up on your bangers, then the tacks would be added after the trimming. I used to just glue a ribbon of decorative fabric over the edge.

If you need, I saw the old presses up in the attic yesterday. I can shoot a photo, or make up a sketch. Let me know.

Y'all Rock! -Brywn

Don: The sweet spots are definitely different. Close to the bridge, they're dry and LOUD. 3/4" up, and it gets really sweet. Just shy of mid way, is the new G-spot. Ooooohh. Aaaaahh. Yup. That's it.

Gran Tyhris' favorite Scot

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Edited by - Tyri on 02/23/2008 10:22:59

roger martin - Posted - 02/23/2008:  11:00:31

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I've been thinking about building a tackhead.My progress on any projects during this time of year is slow due to my shop being a "hillbilly" shack that is by no means weather proof.I build rough " hillbilly banjos so far trying to use roughly ( except for the Yellowstone) parts that the mtn folks may have used to get the job done.Both the projects I've been working on lately were supposed to get wood heads and I converted one at the last minute to the yellowstone.Because the pot was to be wood topped when the yellowstone was installed the pot came out a bit too narrow or thin.I was thinking as I installed the "skin" that the volume would not be what I was hoping for due to the narrow pot.To my surprise when I slapped the strings the 1st time after running the strings up, that little banjo screamed at me.It doesnt seem to know it has a couple of high sides and puckers here and there.And , I'm not about to try attempt to clean it up just to make it look better.
I took it to work the other day ,my boss was blown away by the volume from such a small and very lite weight banjo.That same day I was picking on it where the tourists could hear it in our mall .AN older man and his wife came by and stopped to listen for a bit.He told his wife that that was a very old banjo and ask me how old it was.Imagine his surprise when I paused a second , thought it over and then said " oh,,,, I guess its about 2 WEEKS OLD NOW" We then had a very nice conversation about building a banjo to look old on purpose.
When I get the current project on track I think I'm going to try a tackhead.
I too was wondering about the weak sides of the head splitting on install.I've been thinking this over and think it just might possibly work by attempting tack down the weak sides 1st , then tacking down the stronger sides.We'll see what works

Roger MArtin

Tyri - Posted - 02/23/2008:  12:14:13

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Friend Mark: Just a passing thought- has anyone tried a hot-air gun on it? I saw some ladies shrink-wrapping baskets yesterday. Mine's not where I left it, so I'm going to see if I can find one of the hair dryers. 'll let you know.

Happy experiments!

-Brywn

Gran Tyhris' favorite Scot

dhergert - Posted - 02/24/2008:  20:00:13

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I mounted a Yellowstone head on my '23 Vega Tub-A-Phone Style M today, just finished. So all of my banjos now have Yellowstone heads on them.

The Style M went well, the head looks great, and the tone, even at this early date, is great. Tub-A-Phones are a bit too bright and snappy to my taste with a Weatherking head on them. But the Yellowstone seems to tame that down a nicely, adding clarity of tone and volume on the way. That same skin-like tone is there now, dry and slightly muted, and my son confirms that to his hearing this banjo now is louder than it was before. It's all consistent with what we've seen and heard before..

Sooo... Here are the banjos I've installed these wonderful heads on:

1 1889 S.S. Stewart American Princess #2 5-string
1 1923 Vega Tub-A-Phone Style M Tenor
2 1925 Gibson Ballbearing Mastertones 5-string (1 mine, a Style 3, the other a friends Style 5)
1 1926 Gibson UB1 banjo-uke
1 1964 Gibson RB-180 20HFH Longneck
1 1978 Stewart MacDonald NHAT OPF RB3-copy 5-string

Clearly I'm convinced. I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending Yellowstone heads for any banjos that are similar to any of these that I have worked on.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

mralston - Posted - 03/02/2008:  08:08:44

---

Some updates -

Tyri - mixed e-mail comments on using a heat gun. One person said that a heat gun made the material much more supple & easier to work out puckers, another person said that heat didn't seem to do much. Haven't tried a heat gun myself, since I've been having pretty good luck with the installation procedure that is shown in the video clips.

Wear issues - one person reports that they mounted a small, hand-struck drum with the head material and have played 70+ hours on the drum with no apparent, adverse wear issues. From his description, this usage probably applies quite a bit more wear to the head than the wear from playing a banjo.

WHAT-IS-IT ??? A bunch of people have asked specifically what the material is. It's a form of Dupont Nomex (R), and the niche application is for archiving, crating, or shelving museum or art objects. I'm not personally going to try to make a commercial product out of the material, but I plan to keep stocked up with the material for my own use and for anyone who would like to try it out. Will decide how I want to handle this & post something on the Swap Shop here on BHO.

FYI - if you go to the Clifftop WV Festival I'll be running a booth for Yellowstone Jewelry there this year. I'll bring some restored vintage banjos set up with the Yellowstone head, if you'd like to check out installations, sound, etc.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

dhergert - Posted - 03/02/2008:  13:02:12

---

Hi Mark,

Watch for an email from me soon...

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Tyri - Posted - 03/02/2008:  20:38:01

---

Howdy, all!

Thankyou, Mark, for the new batch of head material. I haven't been able to put my hands on a heat-gun, and a hair-dryer on Hi has no discernable effect.

"Clearly I'm convinced. I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending Yellowstone heads for any banjos that are similar to any of these that I have worked on."

What he said.

Next puzzle:



On most of my z-banjos, the skin is tucked / pulled / trimmed under, instead of up. I'm going to have to study this situation a bit.

The larger photo shows the fifth-string tunnel (fretboard remnants removed). I just thought y'all might find it interesting- I always love to see how things're put together.

Here's a photo of my first pull a couple of weeks ago. You can see the "light spot" at 7:o'clock, by the back of the guard. I'm told it's been played "several" hours every day, with no wear at all, so far. She didn't tell me how, but she got various colors of make-up all over the front. I wiped it off with Windex and a rag right before I shot this photo.


The easy clean-up, the hide-like sound, and being able to play in the wee hours without the bridge settling, has everyone talking. I probably won't replace the heads on all my hide-bound 'jos, unless I can figure out how- we'll see.

A friend, who plays much better than I, borrowed a uke set up with the Yellowstone head (and Nylguts). From the first chord, she was grinning ear-to-ear. By the end of the evening, she'd decided she wasn't going to give it back- unless I promised to change out the hide on her uke tomorrow.

Happy experiments, and Rockin' jams!

-Brywn





Gran Tyhris' favorite Scot

mralston - Posted - 03/09/2008:  11:31:57

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Hey Brywn -

A couple of weeks ago you asked about a slack-head installation on a banjo-mandolin that I remarked on. That was for a friend, so I didn't want to experiment with her instrument & I set it up with a tight head. I set up a plain-Jane Stella tenor-to-5-string conversion with a slightly slack head & tuned low. Sounds OK to me... I think that the Yellowstone head does OK with slack head & low tuning. Here's a link to an example clip:

http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...?m=c&catid=4

(look for the clip "Lay Your Good Money Down" under "Banjo Lessons and Instruction")


Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

---

Edited by - mralston on 03/17/2008 06:54:53

dhergert - Posted - 03/09/2008:  14:02:07

---

Hi Mark,

I would agree about low tension sounding good with the Yellowstone heads. I am close to saying they sound better at low tension, but I still want to test more. In particular, my nylon-strung Stewart had a very nice easy to achieve resonance and volume at a lower tension. I went on to tighten it up, thinking it would get better, but at the higher tensions it takes harder picking to achieve that samem resonance and volume. I've left it at the higher tension at that time, but will probably lower it again soon to see if that brings back that easy resonance and volume again.

I theorize that nylon strung instruments will show this more easily than steel strung instruments because steel strings typically produce more vibration (and volume).

It is interesting to note that the Rennaisance heads are known for this same thing, that there is a tension point sweet spot and that beyond that point the tone and volume of the instrument is not improved, possibly even negatively effected.

Another thing that I've observed, as has my friend whose Ballbearing I also re-headed with Yellowstone, is that while stretching is slow or maybe even non-existant with this material, something, maybe settling in, does account for a pitch drop for a period of a few weeks after the Yellowstone is installed. I've seen this on all my banjos. It is not, typically, accompanied by visually observable slackening of the head, so I tend to think this is the result of disassembly and re-assembly. Has anyone else seen (or heard) this effect?

I was at the first non-camping bluegrass assication jam in this area (this year) with my Ballbearing last night. The banjo sounded good, as usual. Tone and volume were great, note separation better than ever at one of these jams. There was absolutely no problem cutting through the other instruments at solo time. We'll be going to another association jam today, I'll discuss impressions from there when I get back, too.

Mark, just to let you know, the packages I am expecting haven't arrived yet, this being the west coast I expect early this week. I'm anxious .

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

dhergert - Posted - 03/10/2008:  02:23:52

---

I've tried lowering the tension on my nylon-strung Stewart this evening. I loosened each nut about a 1/3 of a turn. It sounds better, a little tubbier, more open, sweet and more responsive. The change was definately noticable. Bass comes out a bit more and tone is a little brighter, especially picking up toward the neck, which I like. My fishing line nylon strings and 1/2" bridge apply very light pressure against this head; at this new tension the head is still tight enough that there is no dimpling around the bridge feet, but I can feel and see the difference in tension when I press down the head. I'll leave it this way I think. The tone was more muted when the head was tighter, and while I liked that effect for some songs, for for more songs I need that extra brightness, sweetness and volume with the looser head.

The jam today was great. There were about 30 players and singers. The Ballbearing held its own very nicely, absolutely no problem being heard when I wanted it to. It's very easy to be loud with it now, I have to think to hold it back some. Very pleased...

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

jmack1745 - Posted - 03/13/2008:  02:09:40

---

Hi all, I am just gettin' started and I'm liking the frailing/clawhammer style of playing. I'm thinking of starting with a Morgan Monroe MCOB-400 "Cameron" model, and wondered if this head will work on it? Thanks in advance for your input and help.
John

dhergert - Posted - 03/13/2008:  03:40:57

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Hi John,

I've just looked at the Cameron, it has a fairly standard 24 hooks and nuts on a shoe-type rim with a notched tension hoop. It looks like a Yellowstone head would work on this banjo. As has been discussed here, the Yellowstone head is not an easy drop-in installation like a regular pre-formed synthetic head is, but an experienced installer, especially someone experienced with installing skin heads over flesh hoops, could probably do this.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

mralston - Posted - 03/14/2008:  07:32:39

---

Steve S. is planning to make the most unusual Yellowstone head installation that I know of to-date ...... large dia. head on a large Snapping Turtle shell pot. I know that these heads have gone on some drums & zither banjos, and I've done a couple of unusual instruments...... I'd like to get some images of installations. If you wouldn't mind me posting your images on my website, please send me an image (or images) of your Yellowstone head installation (doesn't have to be an unusual instrument). Please keep the images under 300kb so that my in-box doesn't get indigestion ! ......... THANKS ! !

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

bluemule_77 - Posted - 03/14/2008:  10:44:20

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Hey Mark,

I've got several posted on my BHO homepage. Help yourself to any.

Brian

Tyri - Posted - 03/14/2008:  17:35:25

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Nice job, Brian! And I really like your new icon photo. Cool!

Keep on Rockin'!

-Brywn

Gran Tyhri's favorite Scot

ps. Has anyone successfully completed a tack-head installation yet? I tried to re-head a bodhran, and I was being careful, but one side tore anyway. I'd really like to hear if someone's managed it, and how, of course. Thanks in advance.

What's left is still big enough to do a uke, so it's not wasted.

---

Edited by - Tyri on 03/14/2008 17:44:56

dhergert - Posted - 03/16/2008:  00:44:02

---

It's been about 5 days since I lowered the head tension on my Stewart, long enough for the change to settle in. I have to say I really like the tone much better this way, it is much fuller sounding, better balanced, more volume, slightly brighter and less muted. It is pretty clear that the Yellowstone heads do not have to be extremely tight to sound good...

Since making this change, I've been also re-examining my Ballbearing's Yellowstone head. This banjo has sounded great after the re-heading, pretty much from day one. The Yellowstone head tension on it, mostly because I didn't want to compress the springs on this banjo too much, has always been relatively loose too.

I'm going to also go back and re-examine the tension on my other banjos. If they are not already that way, I suspect that these all will benifit from having their Yellowstone heads slightly loose.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Tyri - Posted - 03/16/2008:  01:55:14

---

Good morning, folks. Howdy, Mark.

I've noticed the pitch changing Don mentioned, but I just dismissed it as the normal movement associated with being carried around town in the back seat. As you say, friend Don, there doesn't appear to be any stretching -unlike the Ren head I just put on one of my archtops. I'm almost ready to pull a head on one of my tenors, so I'll have one I can play with.

Also unlike the Rens, the window of "acceptible tone" seems to be much wider. An archtop I did for a friend had the best balance when the nuts were only turned once, after the material was seated, of course. I saw it Thursday at a small session, and it's still flat, and apparently tight (not much deflection, maybe 3/32" ? Man! I love that archtop bass! (I know. Wierd, huh?)

So far, and without playing around with the tension, the short tenors seem to sound better with a higher tension. Though earlier, I'm sure I mentioned how, with the same "crown height", I'm not cranking near as much to get the same "apparent" tension (deflection tested with thumb against hide).

You guys have inspired me- I've an open-back Stratton 5-string that I'll set it up with Nylgut Minstrel strings and a Yellowstone head at as low a tension as I can get, while still being (mostly) flat. I'm really looking forward to playing with it.


Happy experiments and Rockin' jams!

=Brywn



Gran Tyhri's favorite Scot

dhergert - Posted - 03/16/2008:  05:54:19

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Hi Brawn,

What I can observe about the pitch changing is that it seams to have stopped with all my banjos by now. My main players, the Ballbearing and the Stewart, are both completely stable now. The last banjo I re-headed, my Style M Tub-A-Phone, is also completely stable now.

Interestingly the Yellowstone heads do have memory... My Ballbearing's Yellowstone head was put on during a period when I was still experimenting with pressuring and pre-stretching during the installation period, and I remember specifically planting the heel of my palm around the middle of the head in a CPR motion a few times. That stretching at that time has left this head with a stretch memory, such that the bridge tends to sink more on this banjo, almost like a slightly loose skin head would...

The rest of my banjos, including my Gibson-style flathead and archtop banjos and my Tub-A-Phone, have their heads completely flat with relatively little tension; additionally, the Yellowstone head on the Ballbearing that I did for my friend (the pro banjoist), which I also was careful about over-compressing springs with, has a completely flat head, so I can't attrribute this to just being a trait of Ballbearing banjos.

The dip in the middle of my Ballbearing banjo's Yellowstone head is interesting, but not threatening. It is natural looking and completely stable, and in fact I hesitate to change it because the tone and volume are so good. The tension is good and not in need of changing. I've sanded the outside feet of this banjo's bridge so that it won't go convex over the top, and the action is great. But I may one day decide to re-head this banjo again just so it "appears" more normal, or I may just leave it because it sounds so great... We'll see...

Some last musing on this... My Ballbearing seems to sound fuller and more well balanced than the friend's Ballbearing that I did a Yellowstone head on -- I have to wonder if it is because of this dip around the bridge, or if it is because his has a walnut neck compared to mine with a mahogany neck. One of those questions that I'll probably never know the answer about.

Regarding the low tension requirement for good tone on the Yellowstone heads, this makes these heads an ideal candidate for older banjos that might be stressed by another type of synthetic head. I have a mid-1930s Gibson RB3 FH OPF banjo waiting for it's Yellowstone head now, and the low-tension Yellowstone characteristics will be ideal for it -- the advantage is that these banjos have original pot-metal flanges and tension hoops that will warp if the head tension is applied too heavily. Plus, the flesh hoop on the Yellowstone head won't requre strange bending of the hooks or filing of a pre-formed head-band.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

---

Edited by - dhergert on 03/16/2008 06:18:43

mralston - Posted - 03/16/2008:  07:55:25

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Don - I saw the same memory in a head that I loosened. I had used my knuckles a little bit when I used the "CPR" technique to seat the head. The knuckle depressions disappeared when I tightened the head, but became visible again when I loosened the head. Disappeared after I tightened again.

Some observations - using just the heel of your hand (i.e., spreading out the pressure) seems to help. Also, using just 4 hooks for the initial installation means that the head will slip more readily around the flesh hoop as you seat it, you'll need less pressure to seat it, prevents dimpling. Don't put all the hooks on until you're close to the correct tension hoop position.

About using tools to pull the material between flesh hoop and tension hoop & ripping problems - I had a very difficult installation last week. The tension hoop on this banjo was fitted VERY TIGHTLY to the pot, and the hooks were fairly short. As a result, it was extremely difficult to fish the head under the tension hoop. I had made up some extra-long hooks..... I used these for the first 4 hooks, and let the tension hoop ride up as I snugged the head against the flesh hoop (and loosened the hooks a few times) until it was right at the top of the pot. If the head is still hard to draw under the tension hoop, loosen the hooks a little. This will mean that you may have further to go when you draw down the tension hoop, but it makes fishing the head do-able without using tools, since it is possible to tear the material.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

Tyri - Posted - 03/16/2008:  09:55:49

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Good morning, all.

Brother Mark: Yup. On the last couple I did, I used 4 long hooks to start, kept the tension hoop loose, and just made several more trips around ( using mostly one hand )- and they turned out fine.

While working on a friends' uke, I made a gripper using contact cement to adhere rubber pads to a small set of canvas-stretchers. They were helpful- no tearing, so far. I'll try them on a regular-sized pull, as soon as I get a chance.

After playing with a few Yellowstone heads, and most recently, setting up several instruments with 5Star, Ren, and one Fyber, heads, I have to say, I'm really disappointed at how the commercial heads are sounding. Even with the Ren heads "in the zone", they just don't have the punch, or clarity, of the Yellowstone material.

As for cpr-induced memories: Y'all might consider a variation of my dance technique (I know friend Don's tried this)- jump on 'em and dance around while wearing steel-toed boots.

No, Really. My boots are flat with just a slight curve to the bottom.This let me apply a significant , but even, pressure from one side to the other, without dimpling. One could probably get the same result using one boot, and applying pressure with your hand (for safety). Being of diminutive stature does have a few percs- like being able to dance on your banjo safely (without falling off the edge).

I also noted that the new-string "shimmer" was especially nice on the Yellowstone head- I mean, it's nice on any instrument, but it was goose-bumps-on-the-forearms nice on the 'stone.

Y'all have fun!

-Brywn

Gran Tyhri's favorite Scot

Tyri - Posted - 03/17/2008:  02:59:20

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Good morning, all.

In response to folk's emails- three points of clarification:

In side-by-side comparison, I feel, in my own opinion, that this material responds like thin, dry, good quality calfskin. Goatskin (et. al) vellum is a whole different animal.

My description of my own, admittedly humorous, attempts to adapt Mark's process was meant as simply that- a humorous description. I would certainly never advocate the foolhardy, and obviously dangerous, idea of jumping up and down, turn 45 degrees and repeat, as a serious method of musical instrument repair.

Finally. I use and / or make the tool that works best for the job. I am absolutely positive that there's a better / safer / more professional tool one might use to help seat the head, but my boot works well- for me.

It appears that just having fun talking about something you are passionate about really can get you in trouble, if you're not very careful.



Have fun, anyway!

-Brywn

Gran Tyhri's favorite Scot

mralston - Posted - 03/17/2008:  06:31:23

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Brywn - sorry that you got yourself in hot water, but maybe this is a good time for a little reality check about this head material (mostly for the benefit of those folks who may read only the last couple of pages of long BHO posts).

As far as Brywn’s joking about dancing on a banjo – those of you who have requested samples know that, in response to a request, I generally caution people that installation is not a “drop-it-in” process, and I ask if the requester has looked at the installation tips or clips and what their level of skill / confidence is for working on banjos. I do this as a reality check on whether or not a requester is likely to be capable of handling the installation, or if passing out the samples is going to result in disappointment or even damage to an instrument. I’ve had a few people who have reconsidered & cancelled their request after I do this reality check…… good for them for being realistic !

This Nomex ® material was discovered accidentally while I was researching different versions of Tyvek ® for potential use on banjo pots (check out the first post in this topic). A FedEx ® Tyvek ® envelope actually sounds good on a banjo pot, but is too stretchy. The Yellowstone heads also have a little “selective” stretch if you stress it unequally, which is what the “CPR” method of seating the head (shown in the video clips) is meant to address. The Nomex ® (Aramid) family of synthetic fibers are designed to be stretchy in one direction, which is why some forms of Nomex ® are used in fire-resistant clothing. The Yellowstone head version of Nomex is designed to archive art or museum specimens, which is why it’s also somewhat rigid, has very little stretch, & has the appearance of parchment (that’s what the vendor says about it, anyway).

I found out about the uni-directional stretch properties of the Yellowstone material last month while doing some research on what type of adhesive might work on it ….. I haven’t heard any adverse comments about long-term stretching, but I took TLG’s suggestion about orienting the head to control the “grain” by stamping a logo on the heads so that the bridge spans the strongest orientation of the material. Samples that have gone out in the last month have had a "Yellowstone" stamp that should be installed at the neck or tailpiece end, either inside the pot or else showing.

Don Hergert recently volunteered to help me keep up with requests for samples starting sometime soon. Will post new instructions on how to request samples after Don gets on his feet.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

Tyri - Posted - 03/19/2008:  17:32:41

---

Howdy, folks!

Still no stretching.
Still sounding magnificent.
Still dancing.
Works for me.

Speaking of: I think I figured a way to do an "inverted" pull on the 2-piece z-banjo frame, but I'm thinking a slow-set adhesive of some sort, would make the job a bit easier.

Friend Mark: Thanks. And thankyou for the 'check.

I've survived, so far, by adapting well, or at least half-way effectively. My variations on your process, are simply neccessary adaptations. I'm sure that some of the folks following this thread are working under similar restrictions, and will develop "their own way". Folks most often do.

End of sermon.

What was I saying? Oh, yeah! Did you have any positive results in your experiments? Mine with the sandpaper-and-epoxy tore, but still came apart.

Fire retardant. So I guess the heat-gun is straight out.

Way to go, Friend Don! Spread the word, my brother!

Yesterday afternoon, with the rain coming down in sheets, and 45mph winds, and a white-water river running a couple of feet deep where our street normally winds, I was sitting out on the porch playing banjo. Just prior to switching out the hide, I noted the humidity had caused the strings to drop all the way to the 'board.

A couple of hours later, and we're Rockin'! I'm really loving this stuff.

IMHO (see? survive and learn), new strings seem to bring out more of a "parchment-like" tone (dry, flat?), but as they're played in, the 'stones seem to gain a more "hide-like" sound (though much louder). Even out on the porch during a spring shower.

Of course, these are the observations of a confessed wonky old fart.

Have (ing) Fun!

-Brywn




Gran Tyhri's favorite Scot

---

Edited by - Tyri on 03/19/2008 17:36:48

dhergert - Posted - 03/19/2008:  19:06:15

---

I have taken for granted for years how easy life is with a synthetic head. The one skin head I've ever had, about 2 years ago, broke as a result of my twiddling with it. If I wasn't convinced of the convenience of synthetics before, I was definately convinced after.

So, for me the big improvements related to Yellowstone heads are visual and tone. And as you all probably know, I'm pretty obsessed with them now.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

bluemule_77 - Posted - 03/19/2008:  19:29:36

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dhergertAnd as you all probably know, I'm pretty obsessed with them now.

---

Um... No, Don... we... we really hadn't noticed...

Kidding aside, it really seems like something to be enthusiastic about.

I also wanted to mention that, having been tinkering with a Frankenstein banjo-from-parts project lately, I hadn't had my Yellowstone-headed banjo out for over a week. This morning, waiting for sunup, I got it out and found that I had to give the nuts 1/4 turn to get it back to tension. This is the first observable change in the head, and it has taken weeks to occur. Still sounds great.

My project banjo has a neat old skin head on it, and it sounds great, so I'm not gonna change it right away. If I do change it out for a Yellowstone head [and assuming it will be because of the desire to tinker and not because I've busted the skin head] I'll leave the skin head mounted on its square-stock hoop and bend another round-rod hoop for it.

Maybe I missed this in the discussion, but it seems to inexperienced "me" that a round flesh hoop would be easier to pull the stiff Nomex material around evenly than a square one it could bite into. Any thoughts?

BM

dhergert - Posted - 03/19/2008:  20:16:16

---

Hey Brian,

I've always used round flesh hoop wire myself. Even the original flesh hoop that came with my little banjo uke is round... I've probably mentioned it before, but I use acoustical ceiling track hanger wire for the new flesh hoops. It's inexpensive, readily available in bulk, thick enough, and resists casual bending enough to work well.

I work it around a upside-down plastic toy bucket which allows graduated roundness depending on where on the bucket I form it. That cute little bucket has made what was a tedious job of making the flesh hoop round very easy and fast.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Shamrock - Posted - 03/20/2008:  10:22:08

---

Brain,
I did them both. The round flesh hoop worked perfect. For a square hoop I used an old hoop from a torn head. It did make a hard job even harder. In my opinion there were to many corners were the head would get stuck. The round one is smooth.

Juup

Excuse my English, I think in Dutch

mralston - Posted - 03/20/2008:  10:30:57

---

Hey Brian - ditto Don & Juup... round seems to be easier. Unjoined hoop is also easier than joined hoop. Also seems to make a difference in ease of pulling if you clean up dirt & corrosion on the flesh hoop.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

dhergert - Posted - 03/21/2008:  13:08:35

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Hey Mark,

I didn't get it about the advantage of using an unjoined hoop until I saw your video. Then the lights went on. I had been muttering and sputtering while trying to muscle everything like one would with a skin head and a joined hoop. As the video shows, it's so much easier with an unjoined hoop, threading an end though the folds of the head before starting to pull it tight.

It's a great video, Mark, and these are great procedures for installing the Yellowstone heads. Thanks!!!

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.