Shamrock - Posted - 03/21/2008:  16:25:06

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Mark, I don't know what the sound would be with a modern head since I couldn't find a head that would fit the 12 3/4 pot. I can compare a skin and the Yellowstone. The Yellowstone is not far of from a natural skin. The big advantage is that once you put the head on and find the right tension for your banjo it keeps that way without the troubles that comes with the natural skin.

The Yellowstone gives a warm tone. Just enough sustain. A little on the ringy side.

Since the pot has a raised hoop the actual working size of the head is 10 1/2 inch. I'll try to upload some pictures over the weekend.
I'm still working on the ringiness. I want it lesser. Still tweaking.
I'm very pleased with the tone of the banjo. She's big in the volume department. I can keep up with an accordeon without any amplification, no problems there.

One happy customer on this side of the pond

greetings to all, Juup

Excuse my English, I think in Dutch

bluemule_77 - Posted - 03/22/2008:  13:38:46

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My experience is that this head is anything but ringy! Might, as you say, Juup, just be an issue of finding the right tension. Tweak away, I'll bet you fix it.

BM

TLG - Posted - 03/22/2008:  22:29:25

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Has anyone tried this material for a tackhead banjo ?

Tommy

roger martin - Posted - 03/23/2008:  00:59:01

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I'm going to attempt a tackhead as soon as I can get some more neck wood.We"ll see how it works.

Roger MArtin

---

Edited by - roger martin on 03/23/2008 01:08:42

Tyri - Posted - 03/23/2008:  00:59:43

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Hey there, Tommy.

've tried- no luck, so far. My latest experiment was a small bodhran frame. I used a 3/4" plywood cutout frame to tension the head, but the glue "slipped" on one side and it tore. Oh, well.

I'm hopeful that one of the fine ladies and gentlemen here will figure it out and spread the word, but until then, I'll just go with skin.

Brother Mark mentioned his adhesive experiments. Mine were all duds, so I'd certainly appreciate hearing about succesful trials. Anyone?

I don't think (IMHO) it'd have to be all that tight, just flat, to have a good tone.

Happy experiments!

-Brywn

Gran Tyhri's favorite Scot

roger martin - Posted - 03/23/2008:  02:45:35

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What kind of glue are you using to hold the hide in place?

Roger MArtin

Tyri - Posted - 03/23/2008:  04:13:53

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Good morning, all! Howdy Roger.

For hide, even the heavier conga-thickness cowhides, elmers or wood glue have always worked just fine, for me. On the bodhran, I lightly scuffed the surface of the Yellowstone material with sandpaper, and used quick-set epoxy, in a "press" cut from 3/4" plywood (to exert fast, even tension across the surface).

I had the head in place and was carefully banging the tacks in, when part of the side I'd already done came loose, and it tore.

I used what was left to head a uke, so I felt a bit better. Apparently, at least in my experience so far, epoxy doesn't seem to maintain adhesion with this head material. If anyone has different results, or a better method, please sound off!

Happy experiments and Rockin' jams!

-Brywn

Gran Tyhri's favorite Scot

dhergert - Posted - 03/23/2008:  11:47:16

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I've been experimenting too, but sort of in a different way... My son and I have thought about some custom drawings on the Yellowstone heads for people who might want some artwork on their banjo heads... This has some precedence with some old skin heads from the '20s that we've seen recently, and might turn into something marketable.

In our early tests, pen ink adheres for a short while, but then can be washed off with soap and water and some agitation. This includes some of the most common "permanent" inks. We'll keep looking, but I suspect we will never really find a permanent ink for the Yellowstone heads, and it wouldn't suprise me if the same thing holds true for glue. For the drawings we may resort to a spray on cover finish over drawings, but we're still thinking about it.

The Yellowstone material has proven itself pretty impervious, and while we have some queries out to the manufacturer for a way to adhere it to itself, for now I would be looking instead at a mechanical method to hold and mount the heads. Perhaps a couple of joined flesh hoops that hook into each other, that then have a mechanism of non-head material that can be pinned for tackheads, or pinned just above this described flesh hoop mechanism. Mechanical stretching of the Yellowstone heads has proven to work very well with no issues. This could also be used to pre-form heads for people.

I'm not that familiar with Bodhrans, how do they traditionally hold a head in place?

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

mralston - Posted - 03/23/2008:  13:16:51

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Considering whether an adhesive bond resists shear (i.e., slipping the two glued surfaces past each other) or tension (i.e., try to pull the two glued surfaces apart, esp. starting at a corner of the bonded area):

Elmer's flooring cement - poor shear, poor tension
3M Super 77 contact adhesive - fairly good shear, poor tension
Locktite Superglue gel - very good shear, poor tension,
Locktite Superglue regular - good shear, very poor tension,
Heat welding - doesn't adhere surfaces up to the temperature that the material blisters.

Someone tried a bunch of different solvents on the material and didn't find any that would dissolve or weld the material.

Don - I hope you haven't been able to scrub off the Yellowstone logos ! ! ! The "StazOn" archival solvent ink that I sent you should penetrate the material & should be permanent. If you use more than a tiny bit of the ink, it bleeds out into the head.

Speaking of which - in the future, Don Hergert will be responding to requests for the head material for EVERYWHERE except Canada & USA east of the Mississippi, which I will continue to handle. To date at least several hundred samples are out there in various hands.... it's been an interesting trial and it seems like the material has some potential, although it's still an experiment-in-progress. Thanks for volunteering to lighten my load, Don ! ! ! ! !

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

dhergert - Posted - 03/23/2008:  21:07:12

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Hi Mark,

I'm extremely glad to be a part of the progress with the Yellowstone heads. Thanks for all the work you've done to bring us to this point...

Regarding the ink, I haven't even tried to scrub the Yellowstone logos, nor do I expect to. My most recent ink experience is where I had marked bridge position on a few of my banjos where the bridge was likely to slip because of small bridge height or low string tension. The markings were with permanent ink, and since I recently changed bridges on a couple of these banjos, I wanted to get rid of the old ink location markings. They scrubbed right off with soap, water and a paper towel.

Regarding adhesives, I've mentioned it before here, but the most surprising and successful adhesive I've found so far with Yellowstone heads is with the wide clear (probably mylar) Post Office adhesive tape. This stuff held well enough that I was able to use it in hand tightening a head that was cut nearly too small around its flesh hoop. I haven't had an excuse to try it yet, but I completely expect it would be agressive enough to hold an already mounted head around its flesh hoop enough to re-mount it to another banjo.

Btw, here is what I would try with the Bodhran. Make a flesh hoop for the bodhran (probably a joined one) and wrap the head around it as you pull the flesh hoop over the rim (like a skin head over a regular banjo head). Then make a second flesh hoop (also joined) and use it like a hand-driven tension hoop, pulling the Yellowstone head material around the 2nd flesh hoop and down. Tape the remaining Yellowstone material down over the outside of the two flesh hoops, onto the rim, then tack through both the tape and the remaining Yellowstone material. Then cut away the excess tape and Yellowstone material. I would try tacking first above and right against the two flesh hoops so it holds the flesh hoops down and the tension on. If there is any tearing, I'd try again, this time tacking over the tape and Yellowstone material below the flesh hoops, where no tear could extend up beyond the flesh hoops. With this method, theoretically the tension hoops will leverage against each other, already tight around the rim as they apply tension over the rim.

I'm guessing that a bodhran didn't have metal flesh hoops traditionally. I might try making the flesh hoops out of wood or thin rope instead... Not sure what the traditional head mounting method is for these drums.

I think bringing back the use of flesh hoops is a very positive thing with Yellowstone heads. As years of pulled-up Remo heads have shown (and a lesson that Stewart MacDonald learned about 40 years ago with their very successful 5-Star heads), a mechanical tension method works better than gluing.

Best,

-- Don
Yellowstone Banjo Heads co-distributer
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

---

Edited by - dhergert on 03/23/2008 21:31:23

roger martin - Posted - 03/24/2008:  00:44:21

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AN experiment I'm trying on my current project ( if I can get back to it due to weather) is to try not using hooks.I've noticed that several people have mentioned that they had to back OFF the tension on their head after it had been on a while.If so, we'll see if in fact it can work with just a flesh hoop and tension hoop.
On the only one Ive skinned so far I cheated by using clamps to hold the tension ring in place while I pulled .So the tension was already there when I got to the stage of tightening up the hooks.
Ive got to get back out in the shop and get finished on my next one.I SOLD the only one I had a Yellowstone on during the weekend and it had turned out to be the banjo I reached for most if I had a little time to fool with it.
The guy handed me the money and instead of feelin great because I had sold my 1st banjo, I found myself almost wanting to call the deal off because I realized, I"M GONNA MISS THAT BANJO!

Roger MArtin

Rizo - Posted - 03/25/2008:  14:06:57

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I've got to try this stuff out... email sent!

Bass Lady - Posted - 03/26/2008:  19:08:09

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I would also be interested in finding out where to get this.

Bobbi
Windy Strings
Gotoh Tuning Machines, Banjo Instructional Materials, and Accessories
Bluegrass and Clawhammer banjo taught in Northern Virginia
www.windystrings.com

Shamrock - Posted - 03/26/2008:  19:59:41

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Banjoplr, Bobbi,
Just get in touch with mralston or dhergert. Both on the BHO. One of them should get you going. Its gonna be an eyeopener for sure.
Goodluck and please let us know what you think and hear and feel.

gr. Juup

Excuse my English, I think in Dutch

mralston - Posted - 04/07/2008:  06:29:05

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About a month ago or so I reported that I had taken off a Yellowstone head, removed the flesh hoop from the head, and then wasn’t successful putting the same head back on the pot. I tried remove & replace again this weekend……. took off the head, flesh hoop & tension hoop as a unit, handled it carefully, and was able to get it back on the pot fairly painlessly. This was a banjo that I headed last Summer, and the head/flesh hoop/tension hoop slipped off the pot very readily as a single unit. This banjo also had a somewhat loose-fitting flesh hoop & tension hoop, which probably made the R&R easier.

Also.... add PVC cement to the list of adhesives that won't work on this Nomex material.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

dhergert - Posted - 04/09/2008:  13:08:36

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Hi Mark and all...

Here's one that works...

3M Super Weatherstrip Adhesive, #051135-08001 (red box, red tube). From Home Depot or other home stores, it is widely known in the auto industry as Gorrilla Snot.

This is a stringy, always soft, somewhat messy compound that adheres well to Yellowstone head material but can be pulled apart if needed. While it can be pulled (hard-yanked) apart, the shear strength is what we're wanting for holding the Yellowstone material to itself or to a flesh hoop in an effort to produce a pre-formed head, and this adhesive does that well.

I haven't tried this yet, but I would sugest applying it to the flesh hoop as well as to the head as it folds over itself. I'm not sure the best way to do that yet, but once there and once the glue is set, the head should be able to be removed and put on another banjo.

To me the biggest problem is the mess. Gorilla snot is a good name for this stuff, that's what it looks and acts like.

This is sort of a contact cement. Other brands of contact cement may adhere just as well to Yellowstone material and provide a more permanent bond.

Best,

-- Don
Yellowstone Banjo Heads co-distributer
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

dhergert - Posted - 04/10/2008:  11:49:49

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Just a short footnote on this...

I've carefully examined the swatches of Yellowstone head material that I glued together yesterday morning using this adhesive. The "Gorilla Snot" adhesive itself seems to cure to a less malleable state after a day or so. It is still flexible but is firmer and less likely to pull apart. It still adheres to the Yellowstone head material extremely stubbornly.

I think this is the kind of adhesive we've been looking for.

I've got a '70s aluminum pot Asian import banjo in the garage that I've been using for parts every once in a while. I think it's time to bring it in and experiment with this adhesive.

Best,

-- Don
Yellowstone Banjo Heads co-distributer
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Tyri - Posted - 04/10/2008:  16:35:17

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Thankyou, brother Don! I'll give snot a shot on my next tackhead experiment.

Regarding cleanup: Does this stuff roll up (off) when you rub your finger across it?

Happy experiments, and Rockin' jams!

-Brywn

Gran Tyhri's favorite Scot

dhergert - Posted - 04/10/2008:  17:47:23

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Hi Brywn,

Good, have fun...

Regarding cleanup, this stuff is pernicious. I'm still wearing some of it on my fingers from applying it yesterday. It doesn't roll off of the Yellowstone head material, nor does it from my fingers...

The good news is it doesn't come off.

The bad news is it doesn't come off.



Best,

-- Don
Yellowstone Banjo Heads co-distributer
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

dhergert - Posted - 04/11/2008:  11:55:22

---

After 3 days of curing, this adhesive turns a bit darker in color and is really pretty hard. It's still flexible, but at this point it is difficult to separate the Yellowstone material from itself, especially in areas that I've not already pulled apart and pressed together again. It is a good bond.

This adhesive is available in yellow or in black. I suspect yellow will be the less ugly of the two if it gets where it doesn't belong. Great care will need to be taken to keep the adhesive where it doesn't make a mess.

One of our reasons for wanting this kind of adhesive is to create a pre-mounted head. A method I'll be trying will be to completely mount the head but not cut off the excess, then dismount it and apply the adhesive a little at a time to the flesh hoop and to the Yellowstone material near the flesh hoop. Then re-mount the head once more with low tension and let it cure for at least about 3 or 4 hours. (The reason for the low tension is that the adhesive may induce some mechanical slippage when it is wet.) Then increase the tension to make sure everything holds well and then cut off the excess. You won't need much of the adhesive as it will get squeezed up by the pressure of the tension hoop against the flesh hoop.

I'll try to test this out in the next few days.

Best,

-- Don
Yellowstone Banjo Heads co-distributer
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

---

Edited by - dhergert on 04/11/2008 12:50:03

Djypsydjazz - Posted - 04/17/2008:  04:56:23

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Tyvek is really good for a banjo head and does the job well.

I build the machines that surround hate and force it to surrender.

dhergert - Posted - 04/17/2008:  10:54:15

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I think Mark tried Tyvek and found that it sagged too much under the bridge over time... What thickness (mil) are you using?

Best,

-- Don
Yellowstone Banjo Heads co-distributer
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

dhergert - Posted - 04/21/2008:  20:01:43

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Hi All,

I finally got my camera out and took a family portrait. Here it is, all of them wearing Yellowstone heads...



From left to right in the picture, the banjos are a ca. 1926 Gibson UB1 banjo ukulele, a ca. 1923 Vega Style M Tub-A-Phone tenor banjo, a ca. 1889 S.S. Stewart American Princess #2 classic 5-string banjo, a ca. 1925 Gibson PB3 Ballbearing Mastertone 5-string-conversion banjo, a 1978 Stewart MacDonald RB3-copy 5-string banjo and a 1964 Gibson RB180 Longneck 5-string banjo.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Tyri - Posted - 04/21/2008:  20:36:47

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Wow, bud!

That's one handsome family. You're a lucky fellow.

Keep on Rockin'!

-Brywn

Gran Tyhri's favorite Scot

roger martin - Posted - 04/21/2008:  21:46:01

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I got dibs if any of em have babies,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Roger MArtin

bluemule_77 - Posted - 04/21/2008:  21:51:53

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There's one there, on the left...

BM

dhergert - Posted - 04/21/2008:  22:12:46

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I do feel very lucky to have these. They're all really just old playing banjos, none of them in true collection condition, but they play well and sound great.

Btw, I'll be getting one new banjo this year. A Gold Tone CEB-5 Cello Banjo (14" rim). I played this banjo at NAMM and have been drooling over it since then. It was the outstanding banjo of the NAMM show as far as I was concerned, and that's saying a lot because there were some tremendous banjos there this year. Here's me fumbling my way through Jesu Joy on this wonderful banjo -- my fingers weren't used to the thick strings yet, but they loved it anyway... http://youtube.com/watch?v=b1RhZ1jCr34

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

mralston - Posted - 04/22/2008:  07:26:28

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Hey Don - great picture........ I bet Mr. DuPont would be tickled to see his Nomex material in such good company ! ! !

Glad to hear that you finally convinced yourself to get the cello banjo..... I figured that you were hooked when I first saw your video clip from the NAMM show.

For everyone else who is following this thread, Don did an awesome job of tracking down information on the head material. A couple of months ago (about when Don bought himself some bulk rolls of the material) it looked as though the material might be discontinued. Don went to the manufacturer & found out that the material is definitely going to be available for the foreseeable future. Interestingly, he also found out that other applications for the material include use in speaker cones.

Don also found out that, by dumb luck, last year I stumbled across what is probably the most suitable form of the Nomex material for banjo heads, which is 7 mil in thickness and "hardened" by some manufacturing process. Don got a bunch of samples from DuPont, and the material comes from tissue-thin & pliable to about 1/8 inch & stiff as a board..........Brywn, you can feel free to dance on the 1/8 inch stuff, but that's just my opinion ;)

Don - sorry if I stole your thunder by posting this update..... I figured you were too busy making music ! !


Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

Djypsydjazz - Posted - 04/22/2008:  14:08:24

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quote:

---

Originally posted by dhergert

I think Mark tried Tyvek and found that it sagged too much under the bridge over time... What thickness (mil) are you using?

Best,

-- Don
Yellowstone Banjo Heads co-distributer
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

---

Yeah. I realize that it does take frequent replacement. I think that real skin can't be replaced that easily because it is such a unique material.

-Nate

------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahh, the brilliance of the homemade banjo.

dhergert - Posted - 04/22/2008:  14:22:04

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Hi Mark,

No thunder issue here, I'm glad you did mention it all... And you're right, the jam and festival season is starting up.

By the way, the DuPont representative was very encouraging and especially interested in new creative ways to use the Nomex products. He indicated that DuPont is currently expanding, building a new plant to support manufacturing of the Nomex we're using and other simiilar products. So we're going to be able to get this material for quite some time. Eventually this could be the defacto synthetic material to use as an alternative to sheets of real skin for banjo heads.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

adam2180 - Posted - 04/22/2008:  14:46:48

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I cant wait to get my yellowstone head, Thanks again Mark!

Adam
NS, Canada

Shamrock - Posted - 04/22/2008:  14:52:31

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Don,
'Just some old banjo's' ??????
Must be an understatement. A really nice bunch.

About the varies head thicknesses. Did you have them tested? Like wich thickness gives the best sound on aparticular banjo?
There could be a manual to make things easier.
Thickness x goes well with banjo x.
Just a thought.

gr Juup

Excuse my English, I think in Dutch

mralston - Posted - 04/22/2008:  15:22:55

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Nate - when I decided that I wanted to find a synthetic substitite for skin using tension hoop & flesh hoop, the first thing that I tried was a 9"x12" FedEx envelope slit open along one side. It sounded just great from the first moment that I thumped the head with my finger. On that first FedEx banjo the bridge sank down to the dowel in a week or two, so I started to hunt for alternatives. I started by looking for a stiffer Tyvek & found the Nomex Yellowstone material by pure luck.

Adam - welcome to BHO...... good luck in Halifax ! ! ! !

Juup - The next size thinner is 5 mil. I bet it would work, but it just feels thin to me, and I suspect it would sound "light" or "thin". The next size thicker is 10 mil.... when Don mentioned that this size was available, I thought that it might be interesting to try it out.... the swatchbook of samples convinced me that it wouldn't be feasible to install using tension hoop & flesh hoop. There is a 10 mil in a more flexible Nomex that could be installed w/ flesh & tension hoops, but it tears fairly easily and wouldn't work.



Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

Shamrock - Posted - 04/22/2008:  15:34:08

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Hi Mark,
I admit, it was just a thought.
But you got me all confused here. Might be a dumb question, but it's better to ask then to pretend.
What does'5 mil', '7mil' mean?
You know, I'm a Dutchie, and used to metrics.

gr. Juup


Excuse my English, I think in Dutch

mralston - Posted - 04/22/2008:  15:50:49

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No such thing as a dumb question ! ! A mil is a variant English unit of measurement: 1 mil = 1,000th of an inch = 0.0254 millimeter.



Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

dhergert - Posted - 04/22/2008:  15:51:00

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Hi Juup,

We've only just become aware that there are other kinds of Nomex, so no, the other sizes are untested with banjos.

The version of Nomex we're using so far with the Yellowstone head material is available from 0.05 mm to 0.76 mm (2 mil to 30 mil). We're using .018 (7 mil). 5 mil and lower are weaker and extremely flexible and would probably be too thin to stay in place with a tension hoop. 10 mil and higher are too rigid and thick to work through the flesh-hoop/tension-hoop machinery.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Shamrock - Posted - 04/22/2008:  16:07:20

---

Thanks guys for your answers.

As we say here, there are no dumb questions, just dumb answers!!!
But it's pollitical correct to say you have a 'dumb question'.

Since were writing with a time difference of nine hours, I say goodnight to you all.

We'll be in touch

gr Juup

Excuse my English, I think in Dutch

mralston - Posted - 04/24/2008:  17:34:48

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Off-topic ..............I posted a link on a thread that Adam2180 started yesterday about someone trying to scam him on eBay. Please excuse this duplicate link ..... if you've ever thought about getting back at internet & eBay scammers, check out this hilarious website:

http://www.419eater.com/

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

adam2180 - Posted - 05/02/2008:  19:05:56

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The yellowstone head kicked my butt. the problem I had was my tension hoop in old and thin, It just couldn't take all the pulling and fighting that the yellowstone head takes to get in place. I have installed skin heads with no problems but I gave up for the safety of my old banjo and my own sanity.

Adam
NS, Canada

Tyri - Posted - 05/02/2008:  19:25:24

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Howdy, friend Adam.

Sorry t' hear you had such trouble with it. You might email Don and / or Mark and see if they're in touch with any luthier-folk up there who could possibly pull it for you. I've done several pulls on (delicate) antique instruments, but being small of stature, I have to make several more trips around to get the same results as these guys. I'm not strong enough to put up much of a fight, so I have to finesse it.

The first one took a few hours.

They do get faster with practice.

Best of fortune.

-Brywn

Gran Tyhri's favorite Scot

dhergert - Posted - 05/02/2008:  20:31:26

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Hi Adam,

I am sympathetic about old banjo hardware. My oldest that I've put a Yellowstone head on is a well loved 1880s S.S. Stewart nylon strung classic banjo. It was my second banjo to mount a Yellowstone head on, and given its original brass hooks, nuts and tension hoop, I did have concerns. Mark will probably remember that I asked him about them, mostly in the context of which would break first due to extremely high head tension, the head or the hooks. He suggested, and I'm pretty sure he is right, that the hooks would break first.

I didn't have any hardware trouble with this banjo though. And since then I've done more very old banjos with no issues. But, it might be worth taking some time to clarify this point: if I'm doing a Yellowstone head installation on a vintage banjo, while I make every effort to get all of the dimples out of the head during the early mounting process, I do not apply extreme tension on the head by the banjo hardware to try to eliminate all the dimples...

This is for two reasons, the first one being that it is possible that old hardware on many of these banjos might fail before the dimples will come completely out, but also important is that we've found that Yellowstone heads actually sound better at relatively low tension. For me, once there is enough tension on the head to float a bridge, I'm done whether the dimiples are gone or not. And yes, my S.S. Stewart does have a couple of "character" dimples in the Yellowstone head that I've left in place; in my opinion and in the opinion of many other classic banjo lovers, it looks and sounds great as is. And a few of my other vintage banjos also still have dimples in their Yellowstone heads, and I intend to leave them too.

That said, more recently I've been using other methods to get the dimples out. Primarily it is as Mark has described in his installation video, a matter of gentle persuasion, using the CPR method, and very importantly, of keeping the tension hoop higher during the initial mounting process so that it remains relatively high when the head comes under tension. There are a couple of other dimple-avoidance methods I'm experimenting with that I'll talk about more once I've had more experience with them, but for the time being it's mostly following Mark's instructions as described in his videos.

So Adam, I appreciate your wisdom in stopping the process when you felt you were risking your banjo's hardware. That should always be *the* primary criteria. If you ever want to try again, though, feel free to let us know. We can always provide more Yellowstone head material for you, and we might be able to provide some more descriptive help for you and for anyone now that would make your Yellowstone experience a success.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

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Edited by - dhergert on 05/02/2008 21:27:54

mralston - Posted - 05/03/2008:  03:24:49

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Hey Adam -

Sorry about your butt getting kicked ! ! Also glad that you retreated before there was any bloodshed ! ! !

Common difficulties that people have reported are a) tension hoop is a very tight fit and can't fish the head between the flesh hoop & tension hoop, b) can fish the material through but can't pull the edges of the head up enough to flatten out the dimples. Was your problem one of these ??

I e-mailed Richard in NC last week about the tight tension hoop issue....... here's what I suggested to him:

"I think that very tight tension hoops can be one of the most challenging issues in installing the Yellowstone heads. What I sometimes wind up doing is using some extra-long hooks that I made up so that the tension hoop rests on the top of the rim (or tone ring). This lets you fish the material around the flesh hoop & up inside the tension hoop. If you do this, then a) you need to leave the material a little loose around the flesh hoop (i.e., don't snug it all the way up against the flesh hoop) and b) you need to be extra-meticulous in working out wrinkles before you draw down the tension hoop. I don't think that there's any way to predict how this will work out on a particular banjo..... I think that it's a bit of an art, and you get better at it with practice.

I've also found that you can carefully pry the tension hoop away from the rim in individual spots around the rim as you feed the material through, using a thin, blunt tool (like a thin, narrow paint scraper). You have to be careful not to cut the material if you do this. Extra emphasis on being careful."

(added caution - if you pry, extra emphasis on being careful....be gentle..... if you use too much force, you may scar the pot with the tool. Prying is a last resort).

Richard........ if you're following this post, did this work for you ?

Using long hooks and starting with the tension hoop higher (i.e., bottom of tension hoop level or close to top of pot) can also help with difficulty in drawing the head up to flatten out dimples.


Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

www.yellowstone-jewelry.com

adam2180 - Posted - 05/03/2008:  06:07:38

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The tension hoop is definitely a very tight fit on my banjo. I also got some scuffs around the edge of the head when I was trying to fit the tension hoop over it for the first time, will that hurt the head at all?

Adam
NS, Canada

TLG - Posted - 05/03/2008:  08:02:08

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I have sucsessfully mounted 2,so far, using the 3M glue for 11" rims & removed them to mount on other pots. This glue works great & I finally found it at Tractor Supply. A couple small dimples are there but they are very small. I plan on making up several banjo heads this way just for stock. A while back, I have mounted 3 others before the glue was introduced, one without dimples at all, I don't know what I did right then ??.
Adam, maby the trick could be to mount the head on a round object the size of your banjo & then transfer it to the banjo, but old banjos have odd sizes heads & you would have to make a new pot form for every size.
I also had trouble with the hoop being very close to the pot on an old one. I think the glue makes things a little slicker & helps get the ends in place.
Tommy

Tyri - Posted - 05/03/2008:  08:57:47

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Friend Tommy: Howdy!

I'm pleased and excited to hear your experiments were succesful! Congratulations, bud!

Would you please describe how and where (and an idea of how much)you applied the adhesive? Brother Don's description of this stuff as pernicious, has me a touch skittish, but I haven't had a chance to play with it yet.

Did you have any trouble with squeeze-out?

Happy experiments and Rockin' jams!

-Brywn

Gran Tyhri's favorite Scot

roger martin - Posted - 05/03/2008:  09:25:12

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The last one I mounted was a bit easier,. What I did was mount the skin with the tension hoop in place and then walked away for a while to let it set a bit.
In a bit I came back and worked on it,when It wanted to whip me I walked away again for a few minutes, then went back and finished the job.
Yellowstone can be a bit tough to mount but I think its very much worth every bit of time it takes.
As mentioned before the fact that it doesnt have to be mounted as tight on and older banjo is in itself worth the effort.

Roger MArtin

TLG - Posted - 05/03/2008:  10:29:01

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Tyri, The 2 I mounted with the glue was eaiser for me.
I put the material on a pot & put the hoop on & off a couple times & started pulling the longer ends in & under the hoop as described by Mark,& ran a flesh hoop around squirting glue in the open spaces & on the flesh hoop continuing to push the hoop around, experminting with how much glue & yes, squeeze out in emanate just clean it up ASAP or it'll stick to the outside of the head. Maby I used too much ??
Roger, Before I got the glue, it whooped me also & I destroyed 2 other heads before I walked away.
Glueing seems eaiser for me so far.
Tommy

bluemule_77 - Posted - 05/04/2008:  06:52:26

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These are very interesting developments...

Brian

roger martin - Posted - 05/04/2008:  08:11:34

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If I understand you, what your doing is making , in a way , your own pre built head with the hoop and skin as one piece when your done?So you end up with something akin to a factory made head? INTERESTING way to do it.

Roger MArtin