mralston - Posted - 01/29/2008:  09:50:18

Hey Brian -

Nope, she's playing clawhammer style and I'm encouraging her to keep her right hand up over the frailing scoop. Previous user was also a frailer. This banjo is strung w/ steel strings, but I don't think that makes a difference. The amount of fiber separation is small..... I had to look very closely to see it. She's coming over for a lesson on Thursday, will take some pictures & post.

Don Hergert noticed this separation on an installation where he applied some tape to help him fish the head between the flesh hoop & tension hoop. He commented that it gave the head a more skin-like appearance and was going to try to recreate the effect using tape. From 2 feet away, the fiber separation seems to soften the appearance of the skin, which is very flat when new.

Sound doesn't seem to have suffered...... this is the banjo that I used to make the instructional clips of "Boatman" for my stepdaughter, links here on BHO.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

bluemule_77 - Posted - 01/29/2008:  09:57:14

I am getting more pleased with my new Yellowstone head every day. I really think it did take a couple of days to settle and maybe, on some micro-scale, achieve balance across the head. It is wonderful. Dan Levenson did say he already has some of the material, and two other local clawhammerers have expressed interest (though they haven't got to witness my new setup yet -- once they do I'm sure they'll want to try it). I still have those extra sheets that I may share with them... but if I do, I may be ordering more!

BM

dhergert - Posted - 01/29/2008:  11:49:24

Hi Brian,

I agree about the balance across the head. In fact, maybe I've been working with too many flesh hoops lately, but I think I've observed the material actually tighten slightly over a period of days, possibly a part of this "balance" we're talking about.

I got the Ballbearing out this morning before going into the office to see if "it still sounds great". It does. I'm very pleased. Tuning had dropped about a half step, so the head and other parts must still be adjusting. I'll probaby tighten the head tonight to keep the bridge straight, if I can do so without compressing the springs too much. Otherwise I'll pull the head up enough to relax the springs and then re-tighten. This is a normal routine with Ballbearing banjos and synthetic heads, a part of finding balance with them.

Update #1 (1/29/08 18:00PST): I got home tonight and played this banjo for a bit, it sounded great. Then I tightened the Yellowstone head about 1/6th of a turn per nut. I also slightly tightened the tailpiece down. Wow, it opened up. Even my wife and kids said it is louder now. I sponsor a jam tonight, we'll see if I get any comments there.

I also got my StewMac archtop out to compare it with my Ballbearing. These banjos are both hosses now. Happily, the Ballbearing still has that sweet vibrance I like this banjo so much for. The StewMac archtop is just plain punchy, it's starting to peel the paint now.

If there was ever any question about if the Yellowstone banjo heads were going to work well with bluegrass banjos, it looks from here like the answer is a resounding yes.

Film at 11... (still)

Update #2 (1/30/08 08:44PST): The jam was interesting last night. This is a weekly large circle-jam (about 20 people last night), playing and singing mixed-genre Americana music. There were about 4 banjos, 2 mandolins, a fiddle and about a dozen guitars. The Ballbearing was loud, louder than any of the other banjos there (some other Mastertones and a couple of Deerings). And its tone was more like a skin head than any of the others. The people at the opposite end of the circle reported that I had no trouble being heard with this banjo.

Tonight is a free night for me, I hope to finally sit down with these four banjos and play some songs in front of the camera. I'll post links to this as a YouTube here.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Edited by - dhergert on 01/30/2008 11:48:25

mralston - Posted - 01/30/2008:  21:09:52

FYI, I took some photos of the head wear areas on a banjo that has had a Yellowstone head for about 6 months and a moderate amount of use. I see that the wear areas are where the tension hoop is slightly lower than the skin, so the skin was exposed to more wear than if it was protected by the tension hoop. I also took a close-up picture of one of the "puckers" or wrinkles that we've been talking about. More pictures on my homepage under the "fiber separation and pucker" folder.



Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

nittio - Posted - 01/30/2008:  21:33:46

Mark,

First I'd like to thank you for sending me the materials I proceeded today to put them on a banjo I have this took slightly longer
than normal but the results so far have been great. I also put one on a small middle eastern drum which I play called the Dumbeg.
I have not gotten such a wonderful tone out of that drum since I used to put timpany heads on it 35 years ago I can't thank you
enough. The tone on the banjo is very well also I imagine it will only get better. Expect me to order some more from you .I would like
to speak with you . If you could email your phone number it would be greatly appreciated Thanks

May all your picking be true!!

RK-R20
Williams Kenny Ingram #14 (March 2008)

Frank (nittio) O.

dhergert - Posted - 01/31/2008:  12:13:01

Ok...

After a fair amount of work, the video is ready. It is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdzIg61hh1M . It is in 4 parts, about 20 minutes long altogether, each video segment has a reference in its "About This Video" description to the next video in the series... Alternatively, if you want to take the time, you can download (Save Target As...) the complete video from http://mysite.verizon.net/don_herge...ne_movie.wav .

The video is nothing fancy, I just wanted to casually show the banjos I've put the Yellowstone heads on and provide some sound samples. My playing is unrehersed and a bit buggy at times. If you have any questions about the videos, let me know.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Edited by - dhergert on 01/31/2008 12:23:35

Emiel - Posted - 01/31/2008:  14:14:44

Thank you, Don, you sure put a lot of effort in that. Nice demonstration, nice to see. Sounds like that's a material that may be worth trying. To finally judge, you'll have to hear it in person, like always… But this really looks promising.

Emiel

http://www.flickr.com/photos/emieldk/
http://www.bluerounders.com

dhergert - Posted - 02/01/2008:  19:36:11

Thank you Emiel,

The movie was easy enough to take, but getting it saved properly and split up into YouTube size chunks was difficult and it took forever to upload. Also, I'm a bit disappointed with some of the out of focus closeup shots, I evidently got too close for this particular camera. But the concepts are there and the tone is pretty accurate.

I went jamming with my Ballbearing last night after Jazz class and it got a lot of positive feedback. It is definately louder than before and people both notice and like the new, more skin-like tone characteristics. This jam is in a Donut House and there is a permanent echo because of the windows and the tile floor. It can get pretty muddy with all the instruments there, but I've heard that my Ballbearing was clear, loud and very recognizable throughout the night.

I've made a few minor adjustments, but for the most part this banjo is ready to roll now. I can hear that sweet vibrance in that we've gotten used to with the Ballbearings, the Yellowstone head doesn't take that away. But it has re-vitalized bass and body and it's definately louder.

Emiel and anyone else considering a Yellowstone head for your Ballbearing Mastertone banjo, in my experience the banjo's springs begin to compress before the Yellowstone material really makes a very solid foundation for the bridge. I hesitate to tighten the head more as I want to leave appreciable (at least a nickel's thickness) space between the tone ring and the pot. As a result, my bridge was beginning to go convex, so I've corrected for that by sanding down the outer feet of the bridge, allowing the top of the bridge to flaten out nicely. I did that last night, the sound quaility remains wonderful today.

I've seen this same thing happen with other heads and Ballbearing Mastertones, so this isn't anything new, but it's just something to be aware of. I would certainly not let this discourage anyone from using a Yellowstone head on a Ballbearing Mastertone. Mine sounds much better with this head than it did with even a nice vintage Weatherking.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

roger martin - Posted - 02/02/2008:  00:43:33

I wanted to let you know my heads arrived while we were at work today and I'm tickled to death!
I cant work on the banjo's until possibly Sunday afternoon,so it's going to be a long couple of days.Work tends to get in the way of the really important stuff you know lol
Thanks again , I really appreciate all the affort your making for us all.
Watch your snail mail BTW.

Roger MArtin

Emiel - Posted - 02/02/2008:  07:35:11

Don, thank you for your comment. Presently though, I very satisfied with the Taiwan top-frosted Remo on my ball-bearing (the Five Star top-frosted in nice too). I was thinking more about my Prucha flathead Masterclone. I found out that real skin really sounds best on this one, so the Yellowstone may be a good alternative. Also maybe the openback Tubaphone (presently Renaissance head).

Emiel

http://www.flickr.com/photos/emieldk/
http://www.bluerounders.com

bluemule_77 - Posted - 02/02/2008:  10:49:23

I predict that owners of multiple banjos may not intend to install the Yellowstone on all of them... but they will. ;)

BM

dix_fix - Posted - 02/03/2008:  04:11:09

laminating sheet like used in laminating posters etc.

Richard

Veni Vidi Vici

mralston - Posted - 02/03/2008:  06:55:17

Some catchup -

* Frank - what size is the head on your Dumbeg? Check your e-mail for my phone #.

* Don - great videos ! ! I've got a few banjos w/ simple tone rings.....BHO is a great forum to experiment with how the heads perform on more complex instruments.

* Emil - Yep, videos are a good, hi-tech way to share sound over the internet, but no substitute for hearing a banjo in person.

* Roger - good luck with your fist installation.

* Brian - I'm really glad you like the sound on your Reiter banjo. I've got a couple of old banjos with skin heads that I'll probably never change until the heads rip. I'm very lucky.... I've got enough player banjos that I can enjoy listening to the differences in sound with calfskin, goatskin, (Yellowstone head), Fyberskin, Weather King, steel strings, gut strings, fretted, fretless, etc.

* Richard - Nice head installation, great-looking banjo ! ! How is the sound ??

* A breakthrough in head installation yesterday, thanks to input from a number of folks. I'm pretty sure I can replicate the couple of simple modifications to the process that I used to get a truly flawless head installation (in under an hour elapsed time). I'll update the installation tip sheet. I'm also putting a head on a Stewart Thoroughbred banjo-mando for a friend today... will try to make some video clips of the installation process & post on YouTube.



Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

bluemule_77 - Posted - 02/03/2008:  10:03:19

Can't wait to see the updated installation! If it is that much easier to get a flawless install, I may have to put a new one on. Though now, the puckers bother me so very little, since the sound has warmed up so well. Might not tinker with it -- THIS may be "flawless"... ;)

dhergert - Posted - 02/03/2008:  12:32:41

My Ballbearing Mastertone with the Yellowstone head is getting a lot of exposure. Some very good tone related comments are coming from some very experienced banjo players, both bluegrass and clawhammer. Volume is still pretty amazing, I barely have to touch to be heard, which is great for me as I've always preferred a light touch in playing.

I have to agree about the puckers so far... The sound of the instruments I've installed Yellowstone heads on is so much improved that the puckers are really not a serious concern. To me at least so far they are along the lines of the inconsistency of skin for skin banjo heads, something noticable if checked carefully, not affecting tone negatively, adding character...

Mark, I'll also look forward to seeing the new technique with installation, both for eliminating the puckers and for the elapsed time... While I'm not at this time sure I'll re-head all of my banjos that already wear the Yellowstone heads, I still have at least one more, in particular an old Vega Tub-A-Phone, that your breakthrough will probably be very handy for.

This is superb material Mark. I really appreciate your willingness to make it available for banjos. I hope the time and energy you are putting into it are well rewarded now and in the future.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

roger martin - Posted - 02/04/2008:  01:01:57

Am I correct in assuming we dont wet this material like we would a normal skin?

Roger MArtin

bluemule_77 - Posted - 02/04/2008:  01:09:11

You, sir, are correct. But you can if you want!

BM

dhergert - Posted - 02/04/2008:  01:11:31

Hi Roger,

Mark may have more recommendations, but essentially, yes, this is done dry. In fact, Mark has reported that he sent some of the material through the washer to see if it might soften or become more plyable. It was unaffected.

It is really interesting how during the "pulling" stage when you pull the head material tight around the flesh hoop and up through the inside of the tension hoop, how cleanly it pulls through. It will look just about as good around the flesh hoop as a skin head would when you're done.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Edited by - dhergert on 02/04/2008 02:48:53

Buddur - Posted - 02/04/2008:  07:17:49

Mark, I sent you a BHO Email >a week ago inquireing about purchasing one of the Yellowstone heads. I'm still interested.

btw - I see you live in State College, PA, and am wondering if you will be at the DuBois Bluegrass Festival the weekend of March 7-9? If so , and if you don't mind, I'd be interested in having you install a Yellowstone head for me at sometime during the event.


Buddur
http://entertainment.webshots.com/a...529239dcXquN

mralston - Posted - 02/04/2008:  07:40:15

Hey Tom (Buddur) -

You're the last person on my "pending list" from last week... I'll shoot you another e-mail.... give you details about the heads, request your home mailing address.

Nope, wasn't planning to hit the Dubois Bluegrass Festival. Also - I've got my hands pretty full with mailing out samples, let alone my day job, etc. Thanks for asking, but I'm not planning to start doing head installations on the open market. I've talked about a couple installs on this topic.... these were for local friends or else banjos that I'm fixing up for sale.

I did finish a pretty clean head installation yesterday on a banjo-mandolin & got sixteen 5-minute video clips of the process. I'm going to post them on my personal website, because a) YouTube doesn't let people save clips and b) about half of the content covers other topics, like checking overall integrity of an old instrument, comments on old banjo technology, making a flesh hoop, etc. which not everyone is going to want to see.... I'll put up a table of contents for the clips on my website.

Hopefully the video clips will give you (and other people) a better idea of what's involved in installing the heads and also help you decide whether or not you want to tackle the installation yourself. Thanks for asking, though.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

vernob - Posted - 02/04/2008:  15:38:44

I'm in the midst of a wrestling match with one of my test banjos. So far, I haven't mounted the head successfully. I've been trying tape to help hold the material in place while I'm folding it up through the tension hoop. I've decided I need four hands!

Bruce Vernon

"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the banjo, but chooses not to." - Mark Twain

"Don't worry about mistakes. There aren't any." - Miles Davis

bluemule_77 - Posted - 02/04/2008:  15:45:20

Do you have your four hooks on? How are you taping it?

dhergert - Posted - 02/04/2008:  16:45:47

Bruce, I typically use an open flesh hoop, so I don't put it into place until I've pressed the tension hoop over the head and "worn it in" for at least a few minutes. Typically I'll have the rim on the floor and use my knees and my hands to hold the tension hoop in place while pressing down to "fit" the head over the rim. I'll take it off, then press it on, then take it off and press it on a number of times to "worry it" enough to keep some shape. I'll actually get the first 4 folds initially folded where they will eventually be under the tension hoop at this time.

Then I'll get my four hook and nut sets ready (I've not yet needed to make the "extensions" that Mark has made, but they also look very handy) and put them into place on the floor next to where I'm going to be using them, and I'll put the flesh hoop in place. I'll do the first fold over, then put the tension hoop on, then put the first hook and nut set onto the rim and the tension hoop to lock it in place over the flesh hoop and that first fold. Then one by one I'll do the other three folds, starting first with the opposite corner, then the others, each time locking it into place with the hook and nut set.

By this time there is minor tension holding the tension hoop over the four folded corners of the Yellowstone head and starting down over the rim. The open flesh hoop sometimes comes up at this point, if it does, I press it back into place and apply more tension on that corner to keep things where they belong. Once things are stable with the flesh hoop I begin doing the new folds of material opposite the initial four corners so they pop through under the tension hoop.

When these new folds are done I apply more tension and begin seriously pulling the tension hoop down, initially with the 4 hooks, but soon adding another hook next to the existing hooks, then other pairs of hooks at opposite open locations. Before applying any serious pressure, but while the hooks are holding things in place, I go around and pull up the material so it starts to snug well around the flesh hoop, being careful at this loose state not to pull the flesh hoop up between the rim and the tension hoop where it doesn't belong...

As I pull the head material up, it does an amazing thing around the flesh hoop. It forms to it, and as I jockey the material back and forth, the folds come out, like it is forming to the shape of the rim and the inside of the tension hoop. The Yellowstone head material is so resiliant that you can literally pull it into place with raw muscle power. It can rip, so I do pull it up as straight as possible, but it takes a huge amount of tension without showing any signs of fatigue. Eventually the folds will either come out completely or they will lie flat against the flesh hoop as the head material shapes into it's final form.

Then I apply pressure to pull the tension hoop well over the rim, and at the same time pull the material tight again, and repeat this process as I get more hooks and nuts in place. Once everything is in place, I'll begin locating the puckers and either pressing or doing pushups on the head, or dancing on it, until I can first loosen the tension hoop and then pull the head material up more, and then finally tighten the head and see the puckers disappear.

Eventually everything is well seated and in place and the head is taking on tension and the puckers are going away nicely. At this time I walk away and have a nice cold orange juice for about 20 minutes.

I have learned to cut my flesh hoops so there is some overlap. I use accoustical ceiling hangar wire for the flesh hoop (unless I happen to be lucky enough to have an original one), it is thick enough under the tension hoop to do the job well, and is very stable, yet it can be formed round pretty easily around the rim. I form it so it fits tightly around the rim, so when I put it on it stays in place and doesn't flop out. The overlap in the open flesh hoop eventually has to be removed so it doesn't tear the head material, but it is more stable to have an overlap than to have a large gap, and large flesh hoop gaps tend to be places where puckers form. So, after my orange juice, I go back and remove the hooks first (at this time I can leave them on the rim), then I remove the head, tension hoop and flesh hoop all up in one assembly. Then I find the overlap in the flesh hoop and cut it off so there is a small finished gap not more than 1/8th of an inch. That much will usually disappear as the head is finally tightened.

Then I put everything back together. In the best circumstances this is the last re-seating of the head, so this is when I line everything up properly, including the flesh hoop gap under the neck joint, the final alignment of the tension hoop neck notch and the alignment of the grain of the Yellowstone head (which I try to keep running pretty straight up and down from the tailpiece location to the neck location), etc.

Then I re-apply the 4 first hooks and nuts, then add more of them and apply tension as I once again pull the material tight around the flesh hoop.

Eventually all the hooks are on and the head is taking tension nicely and everything is seated properly and alligned properly. And of course, by this time there are either no puckers, or they are going to be under the tailpiece or armrest or headguard, or I'm just too tired of muscling everything to care about them anymore :D .

If in fact everything is looking good -- and usually it is by now -- I'll apply serious tension to the head, examining everything as I do. I'll keep going either until the tension hoop is near the top of the head where I like it for tone, or until I see something wrong and go back and loosen everything up to reseat the head once more.

At this point where I'm conviinced everything is right, or is as right as it is going to get, I'll typically cut away the excess material. Then it's time to re-assemble the rest of the banjo and try it out.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Edited by - dhergert on 02/04/2008 19:42:42

mralston - Posted - 02/04/2008:  20:07:32

Hey Bruce -

Sorry you're having difficulty, glad others have given you some comments. The video clips that I made during an installation yesterday turned out pretty well..... I'm about halfway through processing them for uploading to YouTube, hope to have them up starting in an hour or so. If you want to get a headstart, I'm uploading them under the name "5000eclipse", which you can search..... I'll probably have most of them up before I post again tonight on this topic.

edited 02-05-08; added YouTube links.

Table of Contents

Clip 01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1nst8EaA-I
• Check on general condition of glue, hardware
• Remove old head.
• Comments about flesh hoop and tension hoop construction.

Clip 02
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8alqL73xWk
• Check & clean old tone ring
• About tone rings and old banjos
• Light versus intensive cleaning

Clip 03
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T84uY_2_cY
• Check & tighten shoes
• Clean tone ring seat
• Make a flesh hoop Part 1

Clip 04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6M2olyaGWk
• Flesh hoop Part 2
• Bending metal

Clip 05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNzX-TBQxbU
• Flesh hoop Part 3
• Size Yellowstone banjo heads.

Clip 06
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcN7IAQo0Lg
• Seat the head
• Press on tension hoop, remove, repeat
• Grain, tear direction orientation

Clip 07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWj3ScUdKcM
• Secure tension hoop with 4 hooks
• Manage height of tension hoop above pot

Clip 08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXyEzyAZuRI
• Place flesh hoop
• Work material to spread out folds below the flesh hoop

Clip 09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VekzqPifKhE
• Loosen hooks, allow tension hoop to rise.
• Feed corners of head above flesh hoop and inside the tension hoop.
• Work out wrinkles.

Clip 10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQNRHHzD1vE
• Continue feeding head
• Work out wrinkles

Clip 11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-j2BFvGoZs
• Continue feeding head & working out wrinkles
• Look for puckers on top
• Move hooks 45 degrees
• Continue feeding head & working out wrinkles

Clip 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWlHFyv3Ceo
• Continue feeding head & working out wrinkles
• Check height of tension hoop above pot
• Apply pressure to head w/ heel of palm

Clip 13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-woYeK2G2gM
• Continue pressing w/ heel begin tightening nuts.

Clip 14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdlwVO2xwhg
• Continue pressing w/ heel, continue tightening nuts

Clip 15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SzpE6RukzM
• Continue pressing w/ heel
• Place remaining hooks and nuts

Clip 16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjn1JNJuPsI
• Finish tightening nuts
• Trim excess head


Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

Edited by - mralston on 02/05/2008 06:03:01

dhergert - Posted - 02/05/2008:  12:39:44

Hi Mark,

Great video, I just watched it all, and learned a few good pointers that I hadn't picked up in my own work, so I'll try them out on my old Vega Tub-A-Phone Style M. I'm not yet sure when I'll do this banjo, but it's definate that I'll be doing it. I'm still undecided about doing my '64 Gibson RB180 longneck, but it's still in the running. There's no question in my mind that a Yellowstone head on this or any banjo will improve the tone. As Brian (BlueMule) has suggested, I do suspect that before long all of my banjos will have Yellowstone heads.

My other banjos continue to thrive with the Yellowstone heads. I'll be jamming with my Ballbearing, my Stewart and my UB1 tonight. The Ballbearing's tone and volume has improved even since last week's Tuesday night jam, so we'll see if we get any new unsolicited comments.

Btw, has anyone tried the Yellowstone heads on a tack-head banjo? Or on a zither banjo? I'm wondering if the Yellowstone material will tolerate perferations without ripping. I don't have such banjos, but have friends that do who are interested.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Edited by - dhergert on 02/05/2008 12:43:08

Shamrock - Posted - 02/05/2008:  13:05:48

First of all. Hello to you all. I'm wandering the halls of the Hangout for some time now. I'm the guy from the Netherlands Mark send some heads to. While waiting for the heads to arrive I tried to learn as much as there is about these heads.
Mark, great video's, liked the whole series.
By reading all of your posts I think I will master putting the head on.
The head will be going on a 12 3/4 pot with a wire archtop.
Don't know anything about its origin. It's a big pot with a tenor neck. No tonering.
I'll get back to you when I receive and install the heads.

greeting Juup

mralston - Posted - 02/05/2008:  13:19:33

Don - glad the videos were helpful. In spite of being obviously not very professional, I hope they are more useful than the tip sheet. Using the heel of your hand to seat the head worked extremely well on the last 2 heads that I installed. Yes, samples of the head material have gone to people w/ tackheads, grain measure, other primitive banjos, and zither banjos..... hopefully we'll hear about their experience.

Juup - glad you like the videos...... the installation process is definitely more difficult than dropping in a formed head, but I think the results (and versatility, etc.) have merit. Unless Customs does something goofy, you should be seeing your large heads shortly. You e-mailed about flesh hoops....did the video section on flesh hoop usage make sense? Welcome to Banjo Hangout ! ! .... I've only been a member for about a month, but I'm finding it to be a very useful resource & an entertaining Forum.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

Shamrock - Posted - 02/05/2008:  13:27:19

Hello Mark,
Yesterday I did a test drive with some stuff I had from work. Just a trial. When I saw your video I recongnized the way you made your fleshhoop. The original one is too small so I made a new one. Just the way you did. So I confidenend I will get there.

gr Juup

vernob - Posted - 02/05/2008:  15:02:09

Thanks for the tips, Mark and Don. I did get the head mounted. The trick for me was to use the tension hoop to 'form' the material before installing the flesh. I had not considered that. It seemed "out of order" from the method I had used in installing skin heads. Obviously, you can't wet this stuff to make it pliable. So, that was a good tip.

Bruce Vernon

"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the banjo, but chooses not to." - Mark Twain

"Don't worry about mistakes. There aren't any." - Miles Davis

bluemule_77 - Posted - 02/06/2008:  00:58:41

I've begun watching the videos (I'm on 7 now). My first notable observation is that in my installation, I could not get the tension hoop to stay down in position over the material the way it did in the video. Maybe it's just that the featured banjo has a better fit of tension hoop to pot? I stacked some books on top of the whole works while I attached my four hooks.

As I watch more tomorrow I'll post any comments I might have.

BM

vernob - Posted - 02/06/2008:  06:28:49

The material does have a bounce back type of stiffness when you start working with it, I'm impressed with the idea Mark had to try it on a banjo.

Bruce Vernon

"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the banjo, but chooses not to." - Mark Twain

"Don't worry about mistakes. There aren't any." - Miles Davis

bluemule_77 - Posted - 02/06/2008:  08:39:47

It really is a great discovery on Mark's part. I hope Remo and Elite aren't reading this before the patents get drawn up. I am glad I found this discussion -- my banjo is better for it.

BM

dhergert - Posted - 02/06/2008:  13:42:30

I'm not a patent attorney, but it could be that a new patent with this material as a banjo head couldn't be done, because the material itself is probably already patented and trademarked by its producer (whoever that is). That would be good in a way, as it would also mean that Remo (Weatherking, Fiberskin, Renaissance) and StewMac (5-star) can't patent it either.

Probably for us, a more interesting study is what the market is for this material in the music industry. This is pretty much a fledgling market, too -- Custom Heads. It would apply to banjos and drums, tamborines, etc... For banjos, I would think the custom head market would be similar to the custom bridge industry, a very small sector of the market, but one that is of interest to many banjo owners. Additionally, there is a possibility of an installer market developing.

Custom banjo heads will always appeal to owners of banjos with non-standard size rims, but they will appeal as well to banjo owners who are looking for just a certain sound and/or installation method and/or appearance. I know in my case my interest started because I have a 6" rim UB1 (banjo uke); I had put a cut-up piece of a Weatherking head on it some years ago, but had always wanted a synthetic head that looked and sounded more like skin. When I heard how good that banjo sounded and saw how good it looked with the Yellowstone head on it, I had to try it on some of my other banjos. At this time I've got Yellowstone heads on 4 of my 6 vintage banjos, including my two main playing banjos, and I'll probably install Yellowstone heads on all of my banjos eventually.

While I'm fully convinced that Yellowstone banjo heads are the answer for me, there are still some questions about how well they last. It's not unusual for a Weatherking head to last for three to five decades, and as well, skin heads can also last for decades if cared for properly (I think there are actually still some late ca. 1800s banjos around with original skin heads). On the other hand, Fiberskin heads tend to degrade pretty fast due to abrasion wear and Renaissance heads have no track record yet...

I have no doubt that Yellowstone heads will last for a long time, but exactly how they last under constant tension and with different abrasion patterns is something that we can only know after they've been out for a while. For me, considering the improvement in tone and volume, I'll consider the Yellowstone heads a success if they last on my banjos for a few years. Although I'd love for them to last for decades, I'd be very willing to replace them every 3 to 5 years with the same Yellowstone material if that was necessary.

The first users of plastic heads undoubtedly faced some of the same questions. This is a fresh new world.

Whatever the marketing aspects of Yellowstone heads, I hope Mark can realize whatever goals he has with them. He's done all the research and has basically made the Yellowstone material available for all of us, along with providing instructional information, through his own expenses and energies. I'd very much like to see his efforts rewarded, and if he wants to make a business of this, I will support that business in whatever ways I can.

Many thanks, Mark!

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Shamrock - Posted - 02/06/2008:  16:34:50

The Yellowstone heads arrived in the mail today. The tutorial on Youtube an everything put in the posts helped much with the installation. I got it done in about just over two hours. Empty pot to complete strung banjo.

The wife thought I was wrapping gifts. Yea, for myself……

The instructions and info from all members where so good I managed it on the spot. No puckers just one little high spot. Since there are so many testers in the States I will not actively search for testers in Europe. However I will point some folks to the BHO so they can make up their own mind.
I will get back to you when the head settles in.
Please read over my mistakes in English. I don’t do this everyday.

greetings Juup

switzforge - Posted - 02/06/2008:  16:58:26

These heads look great. Probably be awhile before i get one put on, but I will use it on my next project, whatever that is.

Will play Banjo for food, will stop playing banjo for money.

John Switzer
Beulah, Colorado
www.blackbearforge.com

roger martin - Posted - 02/06/2008:  22:07:05

So far I've been able to get a flash hoop and a tension hoop built and test fit on the banjo.I havent had time to get any further along.
I too had built a flesh hoop that would have been too short,the vid showed me that I needed to go back to the drawing board and do another one.Cant wait to get it all set up and hear those 1st notes!

Roger MArtin

Edited by - roger martin on 02/14/2008 23:23:00

vernob - Posted - 02/08/2008:  15:01:03

I'm going to try the Yellowstone on another banjo. I have it on an old no-name, a fretless. Gut strings. I have another no-name with a spunover rim, fretted, with Nylguts. I want to hear how that one will sound.

Bruce Vernon

"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the banjo, but chooses not to." - Mark Twain

"Don't worry about mistakes. There aren't any." - Miles Davis

dhergert - Posted - 02/08/2008:  18:51:57

Hi Bruce,

Configuration wise this sounds generally siimilar to my old Stewart AP2, a 10" spunover pot, 24.5" scale length with nylon strings. It sounds wonderful with the Yellowstone head. I suspect your spunover will also sound great.

I've come to the conclusion that I'll probably also rehead my two remaining banjos with Yellowstones when I get some free time... If I don't I'll always wonder what they would sound like. They're both open back tone ring banjos, a '23 Vega Style M and a '64 Gibson RB180. Judging from my other banjos that now wear Yellowstone, I expect great results.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

roger martin - Posted - 02/14/2008:  09:02:22

Well, I finally got time to mount the material on the 1st banjo,the vid was a great help.Tho this banjo was originally designed to get a wood head and the addition of a flesh hoop and tension band caused the pot to be a bit narrow it SOUNDS FINE.I'm very pleased with the material, and definitely plan to use it on future banjos.
I must have looked like an idiot down on the floor with one knee holding down one side while wrestling with the other side.I cheated a bit by using clamps here and there to hold a side while I worked in another area.Made it much easier to handle,as I quickly ran out of hands LOL.
Thanks Mark for all your hard work in finding this stuff and letting us know its available.
BTW, I sent a bit more for the material then what you quoted as I felt like I was STEALING by paying what you had said you wanted for them.

Roger MArtin

bluemule_77 - Posted - 02/14/2008:  09:46:30

Ack! Thank for the reminder Roger. If I don't send compensation pretty quick, Mark will think I *am* stealing them. Sorry, Mark! It's comin'.

BM

dhergert - Posted - 02/14/2008:  12:00:05

I was at a jam last night, this one frequented often by a number of pro musicians... One there last night is a banjo/dobro/mando/guitar player for a local, long-standing pro bluegrass band that does performances in a wide area in Southern California. He has heard my Ballbearing banjo before and as of last night, after the Yellowstone head installation.

I noticed him concentrating on my banjo as we jammed. We talked quite a bit about the Yellowstone heads after the jam and he's very interested in trying it out. I invited him to drop by sometime and play my Yellowstone-headed banjos to help decide about it. He's also got a Ballbearing Mastertone, this may be the banjo he will want re-headed.

His observations were interesting. Related to the tone of my Ballbearing with the Yellowstone, he said that either I was picking harder or my banjo is lots brigher and louder. I explained that I was actually working to hold it back so I wouldn't drown everyone else out, he became even more interested. He also commented that it sounded more like a skin head, and that it looked like a nice, brand new skin head, even more so than the FibreSkin heads. He likes that it uses a flesh hoop and looks from the mount standpoint like a skin head.

He has a few other *very valuable* Mastertones that he also uses for performaces. I suspect if he does try a Yellowstone head on one, he will eventually want Yellowstones on all of them.

Mark, if he does decide to go for it, I'll refer him to you for the Yellowstone heads, that way he'll get to meet you and talk with you. I'll probably either install them myself or assist him with installation so he'll have some in-person help. He is a well known performer in the area so it will be good exposure for Yellowstone Banjo Heads. I'll see him again at least at the jam next Wednesday night and I'll bring other banjos for him to try after the jam.

This should be exciting...

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

mralston - Posted - 02/15/2008:  07:55:22

Some catchup –

* development – yep, this is definitely an experimental material. BHO has been a great venue to see what other people think of the material. So far the feedback on BHO & by e-mail has been positive. Still unknown are a) how does the material wear over time ?, b) can the material be taken off and then re-installed ?, c) can the material be glued or otherwise bonded to a flesh hoop to make a “formed” head?

* commercial potential – yep, it’s beginning to look as though there may be a commercial potential for this material. I did check in with a patent attorney this week. He told me that the material itself couldn’t be patented. Interestingly, he asked if there was any special process to install the head. I told him yes, I (and the other BHO experimenters) had been developing a set of steps to install the material. I told him that I put up some YouTube clips of how to install the material, told him that the clips were getting a fair number of hits, and he said that publicizing the installation process took away any potential for patenting the installation process. So, ultimately, if the material does have potential for use as banjo head, it will likely stay in the public domain. It’s supplied in long, 60” wide rolls, so it’s not presently practical for someone who has only one or two heads to install.

* thanks for the compliments about finding the material…… I did so because I was faced with the prospect of putting heads on 8 banjos that I bought from a collector….. check the first post in this topic. In the 6 weeks since I started this topic, I’ve sent out a few hundred samples. Hopefully we’ll be getting more comments about people’s experience with this material used as a banjo head via BHO.

* Roger – thanks for the “extra” $ for the heads. Brian - you’re OK being slow in sending back a swap…. I wasn’t going to send Tony and Pauli to repo your banjo until sometime next week.

* I decided to make it easier for people to orient the “grain” of the material by stamping the heads with my dowel brand logo. The Yellowstone logo should be installed at the tailpiece or neck (either showing or inside the pot), so that the bridge spans the strongest “grain” of the material.

* Don – I think you’re having almost as much fun with this material as I am ! ! ! !


Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

vernob - Posted - 02/15/2008:  08:42:23

I installed the Yellowstone head on an old banjo, a no-name, that probably was a cheap one when new. When I first got the banjo, I pulled off the frets and strung it with gut strings with a goatskin head. It sounded thumpy and warm, but with very little volume. I thought the new head might improve projection and volume. So far, it's brighter but not much louder. I put on Nylguts. That made a bigger difference right there. Then I tried a different bridge. All this fooling around has yielded a different tone, a different character. I didn't get the volume uptick. More later. I do plan to try it on another banjo. This one may not be the best test case.

Bruce Vernon

"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the banjo, but chooses not to." - Mark Twain

"Don't worry about mistakes. There aren't any." - Miles Davis

bluemule_77 - Posted - 02/15/2008:  09:00:14

Mark,

Thanks for that update. I'm a little disappointed that you have no option for retaining rights to the idea. I'm no attorney, not even a little bit, but couldn't this thread with its third-party date stamps and all be submitted as proof that this use of the material and the installation process are indeed your intellectual property? Could you pull the videos, for now, or move them to a private site? Maybe youtube could host a video where you show the material and the finished product but not a full tutorial... "Contact me at this e-mail address for more information..." "For a limited time, I'm offering this material at-cost. Video installation instruction is available for those who participate..." I dunno. It just seems that this product has the potential to rival the other head-makers and even fills a niche that they don't cater to -- the odd-sized skin-headed old banjo niche.

Thanks!
Brian

roger martin - Posted - 02/15/2008:  09:24:14

You mean the check cleared???? lol
Anyway to "sell" the product as a "service" as opposed to a product?I'm thinking that most that would use Yellowstone would be more then willing to pay a bit more for it in order to make it worth your time invested Possibly pull the you tube and include a copy as part of the sale on the 1st purchase?There must be SOME way to make it available yet actually make a buck or 2 on it.

Roger MArtin

dhergert - Posted - 02/15/2008:  10:45:52

Hi Mark,

I know in Europe people are able to patent business processes. Would your attorney know if this type of patent exists in the USA, or if your "business process" applies here? I would think there are enough of us here that would officially stand by your efforts to do so, if it is possible.

Of course, if it is possible to patent, that's a double edged sword... If you were able to get exclusive rights, that's great, but if some big company fought for the rights, they could mess things up quite badly.

It might just be that the best way to make a business out of this is to leave the process in the public domain and then be in the custom head service sector with it.

Whatever direction you choose go, though, you've got my support.

Best,

-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert

"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

Edited by - dhergert on 02/15/2008 10:52:08

vernob - Posted - 02/15/2008:  13:18:45

Mark,

OK, so you can't patent the material. I think right where you are is the best place to be. You should definitely charge more for the material than you are. Ten bucks, or equivalent trade is a good deal for those of us who like to mess around with setup ourselves. It should be twice that, really. If you could form the material on standard 11" flesh hoops, you'd have a modular product that you could easily market, if only to the BHO. People are getting really good results, so the word will spread.

Bruce Vernon

"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the banjo, but chooses not to." - Mark Twain

"Don't worry about mistakes. There aren't any." - Miles Davis

mralston - Posted - 02/15/2008:  20:15:07

OK - I appreciate the comments about commercial potential...... I did what anyone else might do & checked in with a patent attorney, and I have absolutely no regrets. Even if I do manage to keep the source under my hat, the material still has a way to go before it really proves itself. Enough about making a buck.... I'm enjoying sharing the material around & glad that other people like it as much as I did when I first found it. The good news is that, even if I do try to turn this into a commercial effort, the heads don't need to cost much more than what I'm asking for samples during this "try-out" period. Enough about that.

Bruce - you're using Nylguts..... are you using your natural fingernail? I found that I was wearing down my fingernail when I first started using Nylguts. I tried a fake fingernail, and now I use a fake fingernail all the time (actually, I use 2 of Walmart's Kiss Salon PRO'S Choice fingernails, cost ~ $5 per box). Gives better attack than natural fingernail, and it's definitely improved my overall enjoyment of playing Nylgut on fretless.

Mark Ralston

A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon

roger martin - Posted - 02/16/2008:  01:13:22

Is it true that your required to wear panty hose when you play with those fake nails? or did somebody shine me on? lol

Roger MArtin