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roger martin - Posted - 05/04/2008: 23:02:29
By George!!!!!!!!!!!!! It makes sense!
Why didnt we think of it before?
Another progression as we learn more about Yellowstone.
Roger MArtin
dhergert - Posted - 05/05/2008: 00:50:15
Tommy, great work and great news about the glue and the pre-formed 11" Yellowstones. Thanks for reporting about them. I'm also glad to hear you were able to find the 3M glue and that it adhered as well for you as it had for me.
I think there are going to be some very standard Yellowstone head sizes that will be handy and we'll probably all end up putting some together like that. 11" medium height crown is pretty standard for flathead and archtop Gibson Mastertone style banjos as well as many of the newer Stellings and Deering/Vega Tub-A-Phone style banjos. Having a half dozen of these lying around and ready to go would greatly simplify demand for Yellowstone heads for these banjos.
I just mounted a Yellowstone head for one of the recent Deering/Vega TBP banjos this afternoon. It went beautifully, mostly because these banjos are so well made. Everything came apart and went back together perfectly, no surprises, no disappointments. And like my 1923 Vega Style M TBP, this banjo sounded great right away. I was very pleased with this mounting.
I also mounted a Yellowstone head an old 1976 Stelling Calico this morning, but I'm going to re-do it. This model had an early multi-ply rim, and this particular one was not sounding very good; it has been played hard and is starting to show its age. The head started to go on right, but then, of all things, the flesh hoop pulled up underneath the old, somewhat sloppy tension hoop, so I'm going to re-do this head after I find some wider flesh hoop material -- I've got an old cut-up 11" Weatherking head that I'll probably canibalize the flesh hoop off of for this Yellowstone re-do. Also, the bridge and strings on this old Stelling are spent and I'll probably also replace them just to make sure it sounds right. Setup is pretty iimportant; usually I like to leave bridges and strings as-is so the banjo will have only the new Yellowstone head on it and the sound difference will reflect only that change. I don't think that will be possible with this banjo.
The sloppy tension hoop on this banjo points to one thing. If we make a pre-fab head, we need to make sure the flesh hoop will work on any banjo we put it on. I had never dreamed I'd have a flesh hoop pull up under a sloppy tension hoop, but clearly it's a possibility we need to allow for, especially with pre-fab heads.
I mentioned earlier that I was trying some things that may be of interest during the mounting process...
First, during the initial mounting stage I'm cutting a short slit down the Yellowstone material for the original 4 hooks to pass through. This allows the Yellowstone material to remain fairly straight and it is *much* easier to fold and route Yellowstone material around, to apply hand tension and to keep the tension hoop higher during the mounting process. This slit stops at least 1/4" before the tension hoop in it's initial stages and as such doesn't cause any weakness under tension. The only special precaution I use is being careful not to tear the material while I'm hand tensioning it.
Secondly, as mentioned, this makes the hand tensioning the head and keeping the tension hoop high *much* easier. Easier enough that the last two heads have mounted without major dimples *without doing* the CPR process at all. The advantage of not doing the CPR process is that the resulting Yellowstone heads are *very* stiff, un-stretched and they remain very flat even under high steel string and long-tailpiece tension. This can create a need to sand the outer feet of the bridge to keep it flat on the top, not a major problem but one that I'd prefer not to pass on to a banjo owner. I've found that on many of my banjos where I did the CPR process -- and did it correctly near the sides and not near the middle of the head -- the bridges still tended to sag a bit more than desirable under steel string and long-tailpiece tension. Not having to do CPR at all seems to avoid that sagging completely.
Thirdly, I'm now cutting off the excess of the Yellowstone heads before applying final head tension so that most of the "ragged edge" of the Yellowstone mount sits below the top of the head when completed. This makes the Yellowstone installation a bit cleaner looking. I've been doing this for a while now and have yet to see any slippage around the flesh hoop, so it's looking like a pretty positive direction.
I have yet to use the Gorilla Snot 3M glue in mounting a Yellowstone head yet myself. I mostly was planning to use it if I need to remove an existing Yellowstone head, to make sure I can re-mount that same head as needed. However the idea of pre-fabbing some 11" medium crown Yellowstone heads is *very* appealing, especially with the thought of dealing with some valuable vintage banjos that I'm being asked to do in the future. The thought of possibly not having to completely disassemble these valuable old banjos -- completely avoiding the risk of possible failure of some of their original old parts during re-assembly -- is very appealing.
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
Edited by - dhergert on 05/05/2008 01:04:23
dhergert - Posted - 05/05/2008: 03:36:21
An added footnote...
The experience with the old Stelling loose tension hoop has afforded me a nice opportunity to test using the Gorilla Snot 3M glue for re-mounting a Yellowstone head. I removed the original Yellowstone head and flesh hoop (together) from the Stelling (the head and flesh hoop are basically new and very usable for another banjo) and glued the edges of this already mounted head around the flesh hoop and to the crown of the head. It has adhered nicely, so now I have a nice 11" pre-fab Yellowstone head waiting for a banjo to use it on. And it's actually perfect timing, as I've got a friend's original 1930s RB3 waiting for a Yellowstone head. We'll try this pre-fab Yellowstone first and if it works, we're done, otherwise I'll install one from scratch for him.
Also, for the Stelling, I've dug up that Weatherking fleshhoop and cleaned it up, it will be a very nice, thick flesh hoop that will work nicely with this banjo's fairly loose tension hoop.
Lemons provided, lemonade is made!
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
TLG - Posted - 05/05/2008: 05:43:50
Thanks Don. All this is R & D I guess.
I have used a 12" ring from Hobby Lobby for the flesh hoop. It's already round & I cut it to size. I also have some square hoops to use. The hoop from a weather king sounds like a good idea too.
I have also ripped a couple heads pulling them in place.
Tommy
roger martin - Posted - 05/05/2008: 07:14:59
I'm going to have to break down and start buying flesh hoop material.All the old lamps my wife had "stored" are now missing all the lampshades.Which means I actually have to BUY stuff to finish the 2 banjo's I'm building now.DRAT! lol
The other night I was messing around in the shop , not building but not wanting to come in for the night yet.
I noticed a spoke from one of those lampshades laying on the floor.It struck me that it looked familiar.It dawned on me that it looked a little like a banjo hook.... hmmm
I grabbed the new die set I bought last week and threaded that piece and Now I can use the rest of the lampshade material for hooks.......
Roger MArtin
Hobbyhorse - Posted - 05/05/2008: 09:28:23
Loose tension hoops! God I hate those. I've mounted a couple of skin heads pretty nicely before and then found... zing! After a week at low tension it slid right up past the hoop because the original flesh hoop wasn't thick enough. I find this happens more on older (c.1800s) banjos because they've changed shape over time or have more primitive, thinner tension hoops.
That aside, I can't wait to receive and try out the Yellowstone material! The testbeds are going to be:
(1) a Lange-built spunover Supertone 5-string c.1920s (10 7/8") - no tone ring
(2) a spunover banjo-mandolin c.1900s (7 1/8") - no tone ring
(3) a Concertone (Slingerland) banjo-mandolin c.1920s (10 3/4") - lead ring
Jake in Vermont
http://www.myspace.com/jakewildwood
dhergert - Posted - 05/05/2008: 10:49:13
Well, as mentioned, I glued this head to it's flesh hoop last night, today, being home with a cold, I decided to try it again on the Stelling. It worked fine this time, so perhaps the extra thickness of the glue spaced things out a bit better. And the Stelling sounds really good now, so the tension difference with the flesh hoop in the right position must have made a difference.
It strkes me that this may happen again on this banjo since the tension hoop is sort of sloppy in one area. Now that its head is glued to the flesh hoop I'll have more freedom to work with it; I think if it does happen again I'll simply glue a few surfaces of Yellowstone material underneath the area where it doesn't follow the contour of the loose tension hoop to wedge it out. I have that old Weatherking flesh hoop ready to use, but I'm now thinking that big of a hoop is not necessary to correct this problem.
Jake, I'm really glad to hear someone else has had this problem with loose tension hoops, thanks for speaking up about it.
Man, I like these heads on these heavy tone ring banjos. The old Stelling is really waking up now. I may not need to change its bridge and strings after all. Thicker tone, greater tone separation and clarity of notes, noticably better volume. These qualities are consistently what I'm hearing as I install Yellowstones more and more.
And the same goes for non-tone ring banjos, only slightly more subtle. My nylon strung Stewart just sings.
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
Hobbyhorse - Posted - 05/05/2008: 12:37:00
Excellent!
I'm getting excited to see what it'll do on the non-tonering spunover rims. I don't like installing skin on banjos simply because I prefer the practicality of synthetics... and I don't like the idea of installing Remo heads on older banjos where I may need to modify the heel. I think of that as a no-no unless it's absolutely necessary because of poor prior repairs.
Which leads me to retaining the original skin heads (or replacing them with skin) because I don't want to alter the banjo when I'm restoring it... and then when I'm done with everything I have a nicely spruced-up old banjo, shining like it came from the factory a month ago, wood gleaming and enriched with luster, with a tarnished old head... call me a perfectionist but I'd like to have it also "sound" fresh when I'm done. :)
Jake in Vermont
http://www.myspace.com/jakewildwood
mralston - Posted - 05/05/2008: 18:42:37
Adam - you asked about whether or not scuffing the heads might hurt your installation..... so long as you don't poke a hole in the material, you should be OK. I've nicked the heads with a razor (when trimming) on a couple of banjos. Nicks didn't seem to get worse, although I eventually decided to re-head because the nicks looked like sloppy workmanship.
Tommy & Don - if you can figure out a way to 'pre-mount" heads reliably & repeatably, you'll really have something ! ! Probably want to mark the heads some way so that you can keep track of the grain in the material. Keep us posted.
Roger - check the hardware section in Tractor Supply when you go to get some of the 3M glue..... they have 1/8" brass & iron rods that should work for flesh hoops. I use the brass ones to make up hooks, too. Wonder what size the metal rods are in those political yard signs ??????
TYRI DISCLAIMER - POLITICAL YARD SIGNS ARE THE PROPERTY OF THE CANDIDATE OR PARTY COMMITTEE. THEY ARE PLACED WITH THE PROPERTY OWNER'S CONSENT AND THEN PROMPTLY REMOVED. THEY ARE PRIVATE PROPERTY AND SHOULD NOT BE DISTURBED.
Mark Ralston
A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon
www.yellowstone-jewelry.com
roger martin - Posted - 05/05/2008: 23:21:42
Yep, my problem with hooks is solved,now I'm trying to find brass stock to make tension hoops. I want to see how one of my banjos look with all brass just for a change of pace.
I checked Lowes here but they dont carry flat brass stock of any sort.My options are limited around here.
Anybody got any ideas on something i can use for a tension hoop in brass?
Roger MArtin
mralston - Posted - 05/06/2008: 04:10:57
Hey Roger -
I've been making tension hoops out of 1/4" x 1/2" brass flat bar. It works pretty well, but you're going to deviate from your:principle of fixing up banjos as cheaply as possible. I think that I paid around $10 ea. for 3-ft pieces of the brass stock, bought a supply of them from "HighDesertMartin" on eBay. It's too stiff to bend by hand... this was what made me decide to buy a metal bender, which I've never regretted. The 1/4" x 1/2" hoops are heavy, but so far, the banjos that I've made tension hoops for have sounded & looked pretty good.... maybe the extra weight & brass added something to the sound, definitely improved appearance & "solidness".
You're also going to need to use high-temperature brazing... acetylene or MAPP gas to join the brass. Mike Turner started a thread on this topic: http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=103647
More pix of banjo, working brass, etc. in the "forming and joining brass" photo folder on my home page.
Mark Ralston
A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon
www.yellowstone-jewelry.com
dbrooks - Posted - 05/06/2008: 06:07:28
Mark, your brass hooks and tension hoops look amazing. Great work!
David
roger martin - Posted - 05/06/2008: 21:04:31
It is pretty work a lot like what I have in mind if I can get enough to make one hoop.
Roger MArtin
Hobbyhorse - Posted - 05/11/2008: 08:15:02
Got the roll of Yellowstone in the mail yesterday... and though I've been busy painting a whole set of tables for our store's porch, I got started with it on the 7 1/2" banjo mandolin last night. I haven't finished cutting the remnants off it yet, but I did manage to get it all tucked in and up to a bit of tension.
First impressions? Just from tapping I can tell that it's going to sound great! It also looks awesome (the parchment-like texture is very close to quality new skin and it feels like it too) and is (in my opinion) a helluva lot less work than skin to install. I'm so glad I don't have to wait around for it to dry!
Jake in Vermont
http://www.myspace.com/jakewildwood
mralston - Posted - 05/15/2008: 07:37:01
Add a new glue to the list of glues that will bond Yellowstone material - Loctite Sumo Glue. It's a new, polyurethane-type glue, cures pretty quickly, swells less than other polyurethanes. By hand, I couldn't get two, glued pieces of the material to fail by shear (pull the 2 pieces parallel to the bond surface), could just barely get the two pieces to pull apart if I pulled one piece @ 90° to the bond surface. The cured glue is hard. Lowe's sells it.
Mark Ralston
A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon
www.yellowstone-jewelry.com
dhergert - Posted - 05/15/2008: 08:30:49
Great, thanks Mark. I'll have to try it. Is this a 1-part glue? How long does it take to cure?
Hmmm, here are some answers:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/prod...184&plid=722
Good, so it is a 1-part glue. It looks more convenient to apply than the 3M Gorilla Snot product. Cure time is still not documented, but it's 3x faster than something .
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
Edited by - dhergert on 05/15/2008 08:40:23
timmo_1949 - Posted - 05/15/2008: 09:28:01
I often use flesh hoops made of 1/8" brass rod. It is fairly widely available. A few places carry 5/32" brass round which also is the closest fractional equivalent to Number 8 rod and hence is great for making your own hooks.
By the way, I sometimes use 1/8" square brass for flesh hoops. Nice for skin but not so good for Yellowstone material. The sharpish edges of the square hoop make it really hard to pull the material up tight around the flesh hoop. This is even on a rim with a loose-fitting tension hoop. So, stick with round stock, says I.
Timmo
"Bother Yum-Yum!"
http://savethebanjos.com
dhergert - Posted - 05/15/2008: 11:10:58
Good recommendation...
I'm using slightly smaller 3/32" diameter accoustical ceiling hanger wire, it's pretty stiff and works nicely *most of the time*...
I did run into an especially loose tension hoop on a Stelling which allowed this flesh hoop wire to get sucked up between the tension hoop and the rim. I was going to replace this Yellowstone head and flesh hoop, and prepared this original head/flesh-hoop combination for use on a future banjo by gluing them together...
After gluing, just on a fluke, I re-tried this head on the Stelling and the glue had made the difference by taking up some of the slack tension hoop space; that glued Yellowstone head/flesh-hoop combination continues to work properly on this Stelling now a week later.
Timmo, what banjo(s) have you put Yellowstone head(s) on so far?
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
roger martin - Posted - 05/15/2008: 11:19:02
Yesterday the wife and I was in Hobby Lobby, I happened to go back in the craft area and found brass hoops in different sizes.I'll have to cut and resize but it beats ripping off any more of the wifes lampshades,safer you see,
I doubt that their solid brass at the cheap price but I dont care.So I bought enough to do 4 or 5 banjos before I have to stock up.Wife seemed to be all for this purchase,,,, I dont know why.
Roger MArtin
dhergert - Posted - 05/15/2008: 11:23:01
I'm wondering if it might be nice to get an inventory of what kinds of banjos have had Yellowstone banjo heads successfully mounted on them...
We're a pretty small group of banjo builders/repair/setup people, doing custom mounts of a very unique banjo head material. A number of the banjos I've done are probably the first of their kind in the banjo industry to have Yellowstone heads on them. I'm sure many others among us here have also done equally unique mountings.
Here's what I've done so far:
1 ca. 1889 S.S. Stewart American Princess #2 (10" head)
1 ca. 1923 Vega Style M Tub-A-Phone Tenor
2 ca. 1925 Gibson Ballbearing Mastertones (1 Style 3, 1 Style 5, both 5-string conversions)
1 ca. 1926 Gibson UB1 Banjo Uke (6" head)
1 1964 Gibson RB-180 Longneck (flathead)
1 1976 Stelling Golden Cross
1 1978 Stewart MacDonald RB3-copy (archtop)
1 2006 Deering/Vega Tub-A-Phone
I have two waiting for when the owners can spare their instruments, an original 1934 Gibson RB3 (with a 3rd party flathead tone ring) and a new Deering Calico, so anyone who has mounted Yellowstone heads on this kind of instruments, I'd be especially interested in your experiences.
Next?
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
roger martin - Posted - 05/15/2008: 11:26:29
So far all my installations have been on banjos I built.But the 1st chance I get I'm going to try one on a "good" banjo.
Roger MArtin
dhergert - Posted - 05/15/2008: 11:49:10
Hmmm, I think you've already done some good banjos Roger 
.
quote:
Originally posted by roger martin
So far all my installations have been on banjos I built...
Roger MArtin
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergerthttp://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
timmo_1949 - Posted - 05/15/2008: 16:09:39
Don;
Let's see, I've put Yellostone heads on a 38-bracket Lyon & Healy ca. 1890, a 38-bracket no name (also ca. 1890, for sale in the classifieds, by the way), a 1930s (?) no name short-scale tenor (not finished yet), and maybe one other that I can't recall.
The 38 bracket no name is really nice, plunky as you could ever want with Nylguts.
I have not tried it yet on a modern banjo.
Timmo
"Bother Yum-Yum!"
http://savethebanjos.com
roger martin - Posted - 05/15/2008: 18:28:27
Just so you guys know, your comments regarding my banjos keep me on my toes,and quite possibly force me to do better.Every time I see what you are capable of doing it makes me want to build that perfect,yet inexpensive banjo that anyone can afford.I'm not there yet, but with your help I may get there.
The inventiveness you show is inspiring.
I have 2 pots ready for skins which I had planned to do tonite but find myself too tired to do.With just 2 days off and trying to catch up with "home" stuff I havent had the time to get both done.
In the morning I may be able to at least start the "skiinning" of both.I cant wait to see skins on them both.So far I think their the best pots I've been able to turn out.One was planned, the other I built from scratch with SCRAPS left over from other projects.A "scrappot"
Roger MArtin
bluemule_77 - Posted - 05/16/2008: 13:28:16
I have done only this:
1 Bart Reiter Professional, Internal Resonator model w/ rolled brass tone ring.
Brian
Hobbyhorse - Posted - 05/17/2008: 09:00:41
Hello everyone (again)! Just wanted to share a little trick that helped me with the installation of the heads...
I tried making new flesh hoops as one would normally do... grab some new wire and bend it out until it's circular enough to 'do the job.' Well, I didn't like how the Yellowstone was slipping out from under the hoop while I was pushing down with the tension hoop on top of it... so!
I found a new use for duct tape. If you wrap a thin layer of duct tape onto your ex-coat hanger, wire, what have you, around the entire surface... it'll actually help to 'hold' the head just a little bit while you get the rest of the job done. That extra friction turned what would've been an hour-long job getting a new head on a tenor into a half-hour-long job.
But as for the 'body count' on the banjos?
(1) Concertone Banjo Mando
(1) 1920s Unmarked 17-fret Tenor
And over the weekend? Another tenor... and then possibly a Lange-built Supertone 5er.
Jake in Vermont
http://www.myspace.com/jakewildwood
Edited by - Hobbyhorse on 05/17/2008 09:01:12
dhergert - Posted - 05/22/2008: 08:50:20
Jake, it looks great... How's the tone?
I continue to get good reports from the folks I've installed for. I think these are keepers.
Mark, do we have any banjos around that have worn Yellowstone heads for a year yet? How's everyone doing with wear-and-tear?
My main steel string player is getting a lot of exposure. I've washed its Yellowstone head a few times now. While there's no noticable wear yet, I notice that perhaps with the washing, the little hairs are raised up on it enough to be visible as I look across its surface, which is really interesting for a synthetic head that looks so much like skin... Anyone else noticed hairs yet?
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don''t wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
dhergert - Posted - 05/28/2008: 07:52:25
Just got back from a local festival. Nearly got rained out, and it was cold, with hail and new snow in the local mountains just 1000 feet above us. Jams were very limited due to the weather, but we did have a couple in our trailer which was fun.
I like the sound of my banjo better when it is relatively warm, ie: above 45 degrees (F). My fingers work better then too. Yellowstone heads remain solid as a rock no matter the temps and rain, though, so I don't think there's an issue there.
BTW, Mark, we've been playing email tag. I've been getting a few emails from you (last week) but I'm not sure you've received my responses. Let me know if you haven't gotten my responses, ok?
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don''t wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
roger martin - Posted - 05/30/2008: 07:12:27
I have noticed the "hairs" come up on the last 2 I built.I dont know about the 1st one as it sold before I could play it enough for it to " get hairy" LOL
BTW, maybe I missed it , but has anybody been successful with a tackhead set up with Yellowstone?
If so I laid up an 11 inch pot last nite that I think would make a nice tack set up.I did see where someone tried Sumo glue, and I picked some up the other day.I also had time to start a neck using some Oak I got out of the trash at work.It glued up great, but BOY is THIS gonna be a beefy neck!
If this glue does work, what was your method for the installation?
Roger MArtin
mralston - Posted - 05/30/2008: 07:24:59
Hey Roger -
Yep, fine hairs show up w/ wear. I put some close-up pictures on my homepage for anyone who's interested.
I experimented w/ Locktite Sumo glue.... glued two pieces of head together. VERY good adhesion, but I haven't tried to use this to mount a head yet. Still not sure about how this would work, since you can't wet the material & shrink it once you mount w/ tacks. Maybe someone else knows a way to make a tight dry-mount ??????
Mark Ralston
A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon
www.yellowstone-jewelry.com
roger martin - Posted - 05/30/2008: 07:47:51
I've run out of material to use as a band, forgot to pick it up when we was at Lowes the other day buying wood.I think I'm going to try using one of my "adjustable bands" to install a tackhead. Using the band lower then where the tacks go to help hold the tension steady while the tacks and glue are done and dry.With the adjustable band I can ( I think) hold good steady tension on the head while it cures.( MAybe) If it doesnt work I can always fall back and redo it as a "regular" setup.
Nothin to lose and everything to gain here.
Roger MArtin
roger martin - Posted - 05/30/2008: 08:01:02
Nother thing,
I took the just completed banjo to work yesterday so I could finish the set up, when the boss saw it and picked it up ,he wouldnt give it back.He wrote a check and took it home with the ugly test bridge still on it.I did make up a couple of bridges yesterday, out of maple and African Blackwood I member kindly sent me,so the only way I would agree to let him take the banjo with him was with the understanding that I would give him a good bridge as soon as I had time to make one up.
This one sold before I could get pics of it.The boss agreed to take a few and e mail em to me so I can post.But he tends to be a little slow on action sometimes.Good guy tho, I have to say that because I gave him the link to this forum the other day,,,,,,,,,,,
Roger MArtin
dhergert - Posted - 05/30/2008: 08:17:05
We welcome bosses here too.
Regarding the tackhead, I've not done one yet but can envision a double flesh hoop arrangement where the head does a S around the flesh hoops, the outside edge of the head covering the upper flesh hoop, and the tacks are below both of the two hoops. I hadn't thought about glue, so was hoping this double flesh hoop arrangement might work without gluing at all and that the hoops would protect the above-flesh-hoop area of the head from tearing with the tack perferations. I was thinking the flesh hoops would work better if soldered at the ends, but there might be some clever way around that.
Roger, whatever direction you take with the tackhead, I'm very interested. The other side of this is mountain banjos, which I believe also usually use perforations to hold the head in place. Both of these would probably sound very good with Yellowstone heads if we can figure out a mechanical method for mounting them without perforations in the tension range of the head.
Mark's point about tensioning is also good to note, however I suspect that hand tensioning with the double flesh hoop arrangment mentioned above should be sufficient for a tackhead
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don''t wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
roger martin - Posted - 05/30/2008: 08:31:54
I like the look of the heads "hairy" .Maybe somebody will figure out a way to shave the head if they dont like it LOL
I can see it now,wife outside the bathroom door asking what hubby is doing and hubby says,, of course,,,,
"shaving my head",,,,,,,,
Roger MArtin
Tyri - Posted - 05/30/2008: 17:25:15
Howdy. folks.
"We welcome bosses here too. "
He plays the banjo, and he knows what he likes. 
"..wouldnt give it back."
I had a similar experience a few weeks ago! The Yellowstone material is its own advertisement. I think, though, that it may be more of a dilemma if it's one of your favorites. 
I didn't notice the stubble on my evryday banjos, until the cat/dog hair started sticking to it like velcro. I wipe the heads down about once a week, to remove the dirt, or whatever else manages to get on there. The fuzz doesn't really stand out, unless I'm right up on it. Then again, my vision's not precisely 20/20. I considered that using windex might be causing damage, but y'all're reporting the same kind of thing. We'll see.
My one 'stone tackhead experiment was a bust (
), so I'm really looking forward to the results of friend Roger's experiments. I'm thinking, if one can glue this material to a shell, and have it hold, why, there'd be no reason for the shell to neccessarily be wood. 'twas just a thought. 
"shaving my head",,,,,,,,
She'd more likely believe, "shaving the cat!"
Happy experiments and Rockin' jams!
-Brywn
Gran Tyhri''s favorite Scot
roger martin - Posted - 05/31/2008: 07:40:05
Whooooooooo Hooooooooooooooooooo!
Last night at work I wrestled with installing yellowstone on a pot .It's always a wrestling match between me and the skin you see LOl
HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After I got home from work last night I went out to the shop and built this "installer fixture thingy"
The clamps are a temporary item , as soon as I can get to Lowes it will have 4 threaded rods in place of the clamps so I can set the height of the band right where I want it.
It works like this.You set the height of the band so you have plenty of play for pulling the stone thru, BUT the fixture firmly holds the band in place so it can not pop up and get away from you,forcing you to start over (BEEN THERE? LOL
No wrestling with hooks while you try to do 2 things at once.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think something like this is our answer to the wrestling match.
I still cant post pics here but a quick pic is in my homepage.
I wanted to share this with you guys as soon as I could as I think this is the way to go.
Dimples are a snap to work out with this little tool
After you get the head like you want it THEN if your using hooks you add them and your done.No more sweating and cussing while your installing.Pull your 1st four corners thru and carefully turn the pot.Then continue pulling and adjusting as you go.The pot cant move, the band stays where YOU WANT IT instead of having a mind of its own.And yet you have the play there so you can get every last dimple or uneven spot out before you give up and say,,, " ok I'm tired, its good nuff".
What do you guys think,am I on to something here?
Roger MArtin
Edited by - roger martin on 05/31/2008 07:48:21
bluemule_77 - Posted - 05/31/2008: 09:17:18
Here's Roger's photo:
Brian
DrMont - Posted - 05/31/2008: 11:48:20
I just got 2 samples from Mark and I'm about to replace the head on my Orpheum Brass Band (13 1/4" drum). There are two things that I need some help with. A number of people have posted that you should "set the height of the band so as Roger put it "you have plenty of play for pulling the stone through." How do you do this and get the tension hoop to end up at the correct height? I don't think this stuff will stretch very much. Do I leave some slack around the flesh hoop? What do I do if the tension hoop is too high?
Second question- I'd like to get some stock of 1/8" square brass for flesh hoops. Anyone have a source? Any opinions about flesh hoops and tone? Does a brass hoop sound better than a coat hanger?
mralston - Posted - 05/31/2008: 12:53:45
Hey Monty -
It helps if you push the tension hoop down onto the head on the pot.... this works the material and loosens it up a little bit. You should definitely check the video clips (earlier in this thread, also on my website) ..... you want to have the tension hoop maybe a few millimeters higher than where it will sit when the installation is done. If this position makes the clearance too tight to fish the material around the flesh hoop & under the tension hoop, then you may need to raise the tension hoop and then use the heel of your palm to press down on the material as you snug up the nuts..... this slides the material past the flesh hoop.
Also (per the videos)..... do your installation using 4 hooks, then put the rest of the hooks on after you've drawn the tension hoop down and worked out the puckers.
I buy brass stock from Marty Hestrin of Trinity Metals. His e-mail is mdhestrin-co@msn.com. I found him via eBay, and he's a great supplier.
Not sure about the sound contributiuon of flesh hoops. Many of the good banjos that I've worked on had brass flesh hoops, so I figure that you can't go wrong with brass. Also per the videos.... I prefer to use unjoined flesh hoops (i.e., ends aren't welded or brazed together). This lets you slip the flesh hoop under the tension hoop after you secure the tension hoop w/ 4 hooks (also on video clips).
Hope this helps ! ! ! !! e-mail me if you need some backup.
Mark Ralston
A man comes to this world naked and bare; He goes through life with troubles and care; He departs this life and goes we don’t know where; But he’ll be all right there if he lives all right here ............................................... Uncle Dave Macon
www.yellowstone-jewelry.com
roger martin - Posted - 05/31/2008: 13:03:02
What I really like about this fixture is you have easy control of the band height from start to finish.I.ve been having a problem with the band wanting to be too low after I got it done.But last nite I easily had the band where I wanted it AND could adjust the skin as needed by simply feeling around the top of the band every few minutes to make sure the height was right as I worked .I had the band tightened and done in short order no runs no drips no errors,and no puckers!!!!!!!!!
Roger MArtin
roger martin - Posted - 05/31/2008: 13:03:05
What I really like about this fixture is you have easy control of the band height from start to finish.I.ve been having a problem with the band wanting to be too low after I got it done.But last nite I easily had the band where I wanted it AND could adjust the skin as needed by simply feeling around the top of the band every few minutes to make sure the height was right as I worked .I had the band tightened and done in short order no runs no drips no errors,and no puckers!!!!!!!!!
Roger MArtin
dhergert - Posted - 05/31/2008: 18:19:07
Hi Jake,
Great!! As we've discussed, that's my experience too. I think we've got a winner here.
Enjoy, Jake!!
Best,
-- Don
http://home.att.net/~dhergert
http://mysite.verizon.net/don_hergert
"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don''t wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.
Edited by - dhergert on 05/31/2008 18:19:40
DrMont - Posted - 05/31/2008: 21:04:24
well, I see Roger's point. I have ween wrestling with this stuff for a few hours, and it is tough. The Orpheum does not have a lot of room between the tension hoop and the drum so it is very hard to fish through the head. I need more room and only one of those jigs is going to let me do it.
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