Lew H - Posted - 07/29/2014:  06:45:03

Steve, I'm glad that you stand behind your bridges. Here is some irrelevant humor that sprang to mind. Your statement reminds me of the joke that was old even when I was a kid: John Deere will stand behind any of its products except its manure spreader. ;)

rudy - Posted - 07/29/2014:  06:54:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I offer a free trial period for my products.Where's the rolling of your dice in that? 

---

I'm not singling you out.

I'm merely stating that it's a bit less risky for someone who is brand new to the banjo world to rely on the judgment of reputable retail shops that have something at stake rather than playing pin the tail on the donkey.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/29/2014:  08:15:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lew H

Steve, I'm glad that you stand behind your bridges. Here is some irrelevant humor that sprang to mind. Your statement reminds me of the joke that was old even when I was a kid: John Deere will stand behind any of its products except its manure spreader. ;)

---

If there is one thing any banjo forum does not need, it's a manure spreader!

steve davis - Posted - 07/29/2014:  09:46:09

I'd trade a manure spreader for a Farmi winch any day of the week.

John at Woodsound Studio is gathering some intonation/tempering info for me.

We just had an interesting conversation at the shop about the difference between open and harmonics not quite matching and other stuff.

steve davis - Posted - 07/29/2014:  09:52:22

I don't get the pin the tail on the donkey reference,Rudy.There's no guesswork here as I am very experienced in these matters.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/29/2014:  09:52:48

Odd thing yesterday in teh shop I took in an early 70s Gibson 250 that had a compensated bridge. The owner complained of intonation issues after installing the bridge, which baffled him. I told him not all banjos need a comp bridge. We then tried about 5-6 well known comp bridges besides his,and i set  intonation each time with the strobe and to check what was happening. No comp bridge would work on this banjo. 

So, we started trying straight bridges and without fail, the intonation improved dramatically with them. This is not a rare occurrence in the shop either. 

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/29/2014:  09:56:08

That's a very interesting post, John. 

DD

steve davis - Posted - 07/29/2014:  09:57:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

Odd thing yesterday in teh shop I took in an early 70s Gibson 250 that had a compensated bridge. The owner complained of intonation issues after installing the bridge, which baffled him. I told him not all banjos need a comp bridge. We then tried about 5-6 well known comp bridges besides his,and i set  intonation each time with the strobe and to check what was happening. No comp bridge would work on this banjo. 

So, we started trying straight bridges and without fail, the intonation improved dramatically with them. This is not a rare occurrence in the shop either. 

---

How much string clearance does he have over the first fret?

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/29/2014:  10:09:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

Odd thing yesterday in teh shop I took in an early 70s Gibson 250 that had a compensated bridge. The owner complained of intonation issues after installing the bridge, which baffled him. I told him not all banjos need a comp bridge. We then tried about 5-6 well known comp bridges besides his,and i set  intonation each time with the strobe and to check what was happening. No comp bridge would work on this banjo. 

So, we started trying straight bridges and without fail, the intonation improved dramatically with them. This is not a rare occurrence in the shop either. 

---

How much string clearance does he have over the first fret?

---

String clearance there was 'normal' (around .10-.12) ...that wasn't the issue. The scale is properly laid out and the fret work was correct. The overall action wasn't excessive, the truss setting was just about right, the set up was good with proper head tension,etc. This is just another case of a banjo not needing any comping. What was odd was how much the banjo went out of good intonation with the comp bridges. 

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 07/29/2014:  10:17:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

Odd thing yesterday in teh shop I took in an early 70s Gibson 250 that had a compensated bridge. The owner complained of intonation issues after installing the bridge, which baffled him. I told him not all banjos need a comp bridge. We then tried about 5-6 well known comp bridges besides his,and i set  intonation each time with the strobe and to check what was happening. No comp bridge would work on this banjo. 

So, we started trying straight bridges and without fail, the intonation improved dramatically with them. This is not a rare occurrence in the shop either. 

---

John, would you care to tell us what kind of neck it was?

Ken

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/29/2014:  10:29:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

Odd thing yesterday in teh shop I took in an early 70s Gibson 250 that had a compensated bridge. The owner complained of intonation issues after installing the bridge, which baffled him. I told him not all banjos need a comp bridge. We then tried about 5-6 well known comp bridges besides his,and i set  intonation each time with the strobe and to check what was happening. No comp bridge would work on this banjo. 

So, we started trying straight bridges and without fail, the intonation improved dramatically with them. This is not a rare occurrence in the shop either. 

---

John, would you care to tell us what kind of neck it was?

Ken

---

OEM Gibson mahogany neck form that time period, The banjo is all original.

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/29/2014:  10:44:37

Are the frets in the "right" places?

Yeah, it's been known to happen...

steve davis - Posted - 07/29/2014:  10:54:39

Nuts can be out,too.

John Blodgett at Woodsound told me today that matching the open and 12th fret comparisons (maybe on a strobe rather than the dt-2) for the strings' individual lengths was the "right" way for getting the most accurate noting aside from slanted frets.

I'll be talking with him more in the next few days.

And he agrees with me in that a banjo sounds good with either a straight bridge or comped one and he also mentioned how players adjust the intonation on the fly.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/29/2014 11:03:33

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/29/2014:  11:02:32

If the frets were that off, it wouldn't matter what bridge one used. The comp bridges just don't work well on this banjo. I have seen this many many times. Noting wrong with the bridges at all..they just don't work on some banjos. But the odd thing is how far off the intonation becomes. 

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/29/2014:  11:04:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Nuts can be out,too.

John Blodgett at Woodsound told me today that matching the open and 12th fret comparisons (maybe on a strobe rather than the dt-2) for the strings' individual lengths was the "right" way for getting the most accurate noting aside from slanted frets.

I'll be talking with him more in the next few days.

And he agrees with me in that a banjo sounds good with either a straight bridge or comped one and he also mentioned how players adjust the intonation on the fly.

 

 

 

 

M

---

He is just telling you what many have said on these forums over and over again.  It's the "real world" of banjo playing. 

steve davis - Posted - 07/29/2014:  11:13:22

He mentioned the fact that what we are discussing here is taking place throughout musical gengres,today.

Quite common debate material,I guess.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 07/29/2014:  11:24:20

YAE..Very interesting John... Just happen to have an RB 250..00201368, from that time period.. One of the most accurate necks I've ever encountered... When I was playing the ring around the bridges game (bout 3/4 years worth) It was (still is,my experimental banjo).... The best sound and intonation after odles of bridges.............................

You guessed it.......... The old 2.00 Grover............... The comp bridges (and my own version) added nothing and didn't intonate nearly as accurately...

What did I learn after all that go round?........"Its more in the mind and ears than any  "special" bridge"..  I use Snuffy's on everything today (although I do "adapt" them a little) and I have related the Story of the First one that I tryed for Bill S.. It took some doing on his part.. Other than that... ANY good quality straight bridge.. A well settup good quality banjo just doesn't need anything else for the average picker..

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 07/29/2014 11:37:32

Aradobanjo - Posted - 07/29/2014:  12:31:09

Hello,

Open D3 as compared to harmonic D4 could mean the bridge is too far forward. A fretted D4 to harmonic D4 is a better placement. String stretch does occur.

For me, a compensated bridge where all strings are compensated seems too complicated. Finding the harmonic placement seems challenging. If one plays open and barred songs, an errant note may not show up. 

Playing melodic scales may show the problem. I noticed the problem while practicing Pat Cloud exercises.  Pat has a CD of each exercise to compare. Some notes sounded sharp and others flat. That lead me to consider that a compensated bridge should be paired to the needs of the banjo, no one size fits all. 

I am back to a straight bridge. I do have a custom compensated bridge for two strings(3rd and 4th). Both work well and the problem notes were gone. Now, I use an IPad Air to place a bridge.

lazyarcher - Posted - 07/29/2014:  13:26:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

If the frets were that off, it wouldn't matter what bridge one used. The comp bridges just don't work well on this banjo. I have seen this many many times. Noting wrong with the bridges at all..they just don't work on some banjos. But the odd thing is how far off the intonation becomes. 

---

John..thank you thank you thank you.

I've been asking this question since this whole comp bridge tsunami thing hit the mainland...why do some necks require a radical comp bridge and some don't?

I have two examples sitting in my den..a Hatfield neck that needs NO compensation, and an RK neck that likes a bit.

The answer is...a banjo neck that requires a lot of compensation is a bit off..or inaccurate..or whatever you want to call it.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/29/2014:  14:01:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

He mentioned the fact that what we are discussing here is taking place throughout musical gengres,today.

Quite common debate material,I guess.

---

Steve, I think the word you're wanting here is  "genres".

Genre is just a fancy French word for category or style.

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 07/29/2014 14:06:53

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/29/2014:  14:15:07

Gangrene?

Nah....

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 07/29/2014:  14:39:27

Some of the most knowledgeable people in the banjo world are responding here... That shouldn't be hard to understand...

Do you mean Rap Gang Rick?.. They surely would be the people to quote about banjos, as much as any other Genre.... Personally I prefer the Bluegrass Gang...

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 07/29/2014 14:40:34

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/29/2014:  17:36:04

I just posted a musing on the effect of "afterlength" of strings on intonation on another thread, but it's certainly relevant here. When you press down on a string, the added tension stretches the string's entire length from tailpiece to tuner post, assuming minimum friction at the bridge and the nut. Longer string total length will result in the stretch having less of an effect. Thus, in theory, the G and B will be pushed less sharp than the two D strings, and the 5th string is a wild card. This may partially explain why some banjos need less compensation than others. One might even be able to design a certain degree of "stretch compensation" into a tailpiece and peghead tuner array.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/29/2014:  17:45:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

I just posted a musing on the effect of "afterlength" of strings on intonation on another thread, but it's certainly relevant here. When you press down on a string, the added tension stretches the string's entire length from tailpiece to tuner post, assuming minimum friction at the bridge and the nut. Longer string total length will result in the stretch having less of an effect. Thus, in theory, the G and B will be pushed less sharp than the two D strings, and the 5th string is a wild card. This may partially explain why some banjos need less compensation than others. One might even be able to design a certain degree of "stretch compensation" into a tailpiece and peghead tuner array.

---

Rick, that lower tension may be negated by the higher tension necessary to bring a longer string up to pitch. 

Speaking of friction at the nut. I wonder if a teflon nut would be of benefit. I suppose one could also use a teflon bridge top, if you could figure out a way to glue it. And teflon may be a poor sound transmitter. Maybe just a teflon coated bridge top. So many experiments--so little time. :->

DD

grm405 - Posted - 07/29/2014:  18:24:56

"Open D3 as compared to harmonic D4 could mean the bridge is too far forward."

Not sure what you mean by this.  Open D3 and its harmonic D4 are always going to be in tune (2 x multiple) regardless of bridge position.  It is simple physics of string vibration.  It has nothing to do with bridge placement and moving the bridge does not change anything.

Gerry

Edited by - grm405 on 07/29/2014 18:25:15

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/29/2014:  18:58:55

Dan, No... it's not about string tension; it's about overall distributed stretch.

It takes exactly the same tension to bring a string of any overall length up to pitch with a given scale length or playing length. You could have a 30' string on a banjo, and an open note of the scale...call it 27" would have the same tension as if you had a 29" string. They'd feel different, but feel is NOT absolute string tension. There is a difference between overall string stretch which is tailpiece to tuner post and tension which is determined by scale length (or speaking length, if you prefer that term" and linear density of the string.

The feel is a combination of absolute tension and the overall stretchiness (would that work in Scrabble?) of the entire string length. These factors are related, but they are not the same.

This is one of the reasons a reverse headstock on a Strat (rare, but it's been done) results in a different string feel than a standard 6 on the "bass" side peghead. Yet the tension is exactly the same with a given string set at a given pitch.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/29/2014:  19:30:19

OK, I think I understand. I was thinking about flat top guitars, where the string ends at the bridge. A flat top with a 26" scale is going to have greater string tension than one with a 25" scale. But in that case not only the string is longer, but the scale length is longer. Whereas a banjo or arch top guitar can have a given scale length, but can have any string length. What matters is the distance between the nut and the saddle. 

DD

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/29/2014:  20:04:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

I just posted a musing on the effect of "afterlength" of strings on intonation on another thread, but it's certainly relevant here. When you press down on a string, the added tension stretches the string's entire length from tailpiece to tuner post, assuming minimum friction at the bridge and the nut. Longer string total length will result in the stretch having less of an effect. Thus, in theory, the G and B will be pushed less sharp than the two D strings, and the 5th string is a wild card. This may partially explain why some banjos need less compensation than others. One might even be able to design a certain degree of "stretch compensation" into a tailpiece and peghead tuner array.

---

I read both posts and am now myself intrigued by the "afterlength" concept.  Thanks, Rick!

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/29/2014:  21:11:38

Calling Roger Siminoff!

Boy, I hope I can spend some time in a lab over at Stanford looking into some of this stuff with some of the professors I've met there. World class smart dudes! And they're totally fascinated with music and understanding instruments.

overhere - Posted - 07/30/2014:  04:07:38

most guitars or at least the better accoustics have slanted bridges. my sons bass has a slanted bridge. I googled the reasons why and it seems that the fatter strings need longer length. got me thinking. did all my harmonic thing at the 12th and found G string a tad sharp. so I slanted bridge a tidbit.... brought that G string on the 12th right on the button and it didn't effect any other string. usually G string at the 12 hardly ever gets played but just knowing it was off drove me batty. Any way i'd like to say, Steve knows his sh*t and any one can google this problem and get a wealth of knowledge about intonation.

steve davis - Posted - 07/30/2014:  04:29:38

We can learn a lot talking to experienced luthiers. 

Aradobanjo - Posted - 07/30/2014:  05:45:51

Hello Jerry,

That is correct for a single string. But the banjo is a 5 stringed instrument with frets and graduated incline for the string. String stretch occurs all along the fret board. In an ideal condition where friction is 0, we may consider the string to be completely elastic from post to the anchor hitch of length L. 

In a real condition, where friction is > 0, the length maybe L', therefore L' < L. L' is the length that will yield to stretch. 

Consider L". L" is the distance from the nut to the bridge. Then, L > L' >= L".  If friction is high, L'  is constant and L" is variable. 

When a string is pressed and given a high friction value, dL" is the deformation length. L" + dL" is the length of string needed to make a note at a fret. 

When fretting the 4th and 1st string at the 12th fret and comparing the harmonic, the Bridge is set to mark L"+dL". 

When comparing an open 4th to the octave harmonic, the Bridge is set to L". 

This is why I said the bridge is too far forward. 

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/30/2014:  05:59:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

Calling Roger Siminoff!



Boy, I hope I can spend some time in a lab over at Stanford looking into some of this stuff with some of the professors I've met there. World class smart dudes! And they're totally fascinated with music and understanding instruments.

---

Let's call David Politzer, too!

steve davis - Posted - 07/30/2014:  07:22:51

The more the merrier.

There is knowledge in numbers.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/30/2014:  18:12:50

steve

I received the bridge today..thanks.  As soon as I have any down time in the shop, I will test it on various banjos here and report back. I can put the info here or in a new thread. 

steve davis - Posted - 07/30/2014:  18:28:39

Yes.Either way is fine,John.

rudy - Posted - 07/30/2014:  18:31:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

The more the merrier.

There is knowledge in numbers.

---

Only if there are knowledgeable among the numbers.

I'm sure you can think of a few instances in history where sheer numbers didn't result in what we would consider to be either knowledge or enlightenment.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/30/2014:  19:13:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

The more the merrier.

There is knowledge in numbers.

---

Only if there are knowledgeable among the numbers.

I'm sure you can think of a few instances in history where sheer numbers didn't result in what we would consider to be either knowledge or enlightenment.

---

Reminds me of one of the seminars I took in graduate school so many years ago.

The professor had to interrupt us at one point, saying, "Ladies and gentlemen, this may be a seminar, but it is not an exchange of ignorance.  Please put your opinions and prejudices aside and try to learn​ something."

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/30/2014:  19:55:44

You know, given how few keys most banjo players play in, it wouldn't be unreasonable to fret to just intonation and have a "G" banjo, a "C" banjo, and a "D" banjo.

Or do a triple neck with the necks radiating out like wheel spokes with a pivot in the center of the resonator. I ran that by Greg Rich when he visited yesterday, and he almost lost it. Well, Greg lost it years ago, but...

etparadox - Posted - 07/30/2014:  19:56:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

The more the merrier.

There is knowledge in numbers.

---

Only if there are knowledgeable among the numbers.

I'm sure you can think of a few instances in history where sheer numbers didn't result in what we would consider to be either knowledge or enlightenment.

---

Reminds me of one of the seminars I took in graduate school so many years ago.

The professor had to interrupt us at one point, saying, "Ladies and gentlemen, this may be a seminar, but it is not an exchange of ignorance.  Please put your opinions and prejudices aside and try to learn​ something."

---

There was a wonderful bit on CarTalk the other weekend, where a view wrote in to thank the brothers for settling a debate he had been having with his friend. cartalk.com/content/andy-scale-0

The question at hand was simple: "Do two people who don't know what they are talking about know more or less than one person who doesn't know what he's talking about?" 

Based on an earlier attempt by the brothers to guess how electric breaks worked (at which they struck out) he concluded that two badly informed people do, in fact, know less than one. 

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/30/2014:  20:24:20

That's what you all get for me picking up etparadox at the San Jose Airport a couple of hours ago.

Hey, ET, it's "brakes"...

But thems the breaks, innit?

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/30/2014:  21:40:51

Wal Rick, thats wut ya get for fillin the boys head wit all that fancy collage edgycayshun.

DD

etparadox - Posted - 07/30/2014:  23:22:12

And that's what I get for typing this on my phone. For all the wonders of technology, you think autocorrect would be better than it is. Maybe someone should try to compensate that. 

steve davis - Posted - 07/31/2014:  06:15:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

The more the merrier.

There is knowledge in numbers.

---

Only if there are knowledgeable among the numbers.

I'm sure you can think of a few instances in history where sheer numbers didn't result in what we would consider to be either knowledge or enlightenment.

---

I flunked American History twice in high school,Rudy so I have no idea what you are talking about.

What I'm talking about is the more heads getting together on intonation, the better sampling of ideas and outcomes will be closer to the "truth".

I think in rather simple terms about this stuff as in how it strikes one's ear.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/31/2014 06:16:47

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/31/2014:  20:42:24

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”

--Daniel J. Boorstin, The Discoverers: A History of Man's Search to Know His World and Himself

(I discovered Boorstin when his 1961 book, The Image: A Guide to Pseudo-Events in America was required reading in my freshman college honors English class in 1967.)  

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 07/31/2014 20:48:25