xnavyguy - Posted - 07/24/2014:  09:30:12

Matt's comments about the Davis bridge footprint affecting tone are certainly worth considering.

I've tested all manner of foot contact parameters with bridges and anything different that your standard 3 foot straight bridge has some effect on focus, note attack, & clarity, either for the good or the bad.

The Davis bridges that I've encountered have all been responsive, clear, & focused.

If you want to hear some sound files comparing a Davis bridge footprint to a straight bridge footprint, go to Roll Player's home page and play back the 2 Blue Moon Of Kentucky files. One is with a Sullivan roasted (straight) bridge. The other is a Davis footprint bridge, of the exact same weight and made out of the same roasted maple.

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  09:46:08

It is entirely possible to carve an intonated bridge that has the same footprint as a "normal" straight bridge, has the right wiggle for good compensation, and has the right weight. It's amazing what we can carve with CNC machines these days. I'll talk to Eli about CAD'ing something up. We've got the machine for it.

I'd also suggest that one might want to consider gluing the top "saddle" to the bridge with something less rubbery than Titebond. Hot hide glue would be the "pre-war" answer, for instance. Dries like glass. Great vibration transfer. Some one of these days I'm going to attempt to actually measure the effects of different glues with regard to acoustical response.

pickNgrin - Posted - 07/24/2014:  10:19:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

It is entirely possible to carve an intonated bridge that has the same footprint as a "normal" straight bridge, 

---

There are actually some straight-footed compensated bridges on the market. The footprint is not the only thing... a compensated bridge necessarily has a different shape to it, and since all of the string energy has to pass through the bridge to get to the head, there is going to be a difference in the way it couples to the head.

Edited by - pickNgrin on 07/24/2014 10:24:14

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  10:25:28

Eli is CAD'ing one up today just for a look-see. Fully understood re. the path from top to bottom; he's averaging that.

Roll Player - Posted - 07/24/2014:  10:40:05

I used one of those stairstep bridges for a while years ago. I never could get the sound from it that I was looking for. I even tried filing and sanding the sharp corners of the stairsteps but it still didn't cut it. I also don't think the 2nd string compensation is necessary. I agree with Arthur Hatfield and Steve Davis that the 2nd does not go sharp up the neck.

I think the 1st comper that had a good reputation for tone was the Moon. Then Arthur's and Steve's bridges came along and they've been received well by a lot of pickers. I use Steve's bridges on my RKs because I like both the tone and the intonation.

What effect do you all think the "fanning" of the strings has on intonation?  What I mean is that the strings are closer together at the nut than at the bridge, so the outer strings will have a slightly longer scale length than the 3rd. I doubt it has as much effect as the stiffness difference, but, in theory, it still should have a little effect.

Edited by - Roll Player on 07/24/2014 10:47:46

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  10:52:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

 . . .

I'd also suggest that one might want to consider gluing the top "saddle" to the bridge with something less rubbery than Titebond. Hot hide glue would be the "pre-war" answer, for instance. Dries like glass. Great vibration transfer. Some one of these days I'm going to attempt to actually measure the effects of different glues with regard to acoustical response.

---

I can't speak for everyone, but I can assure you that, on my bowed strings, nothing but hot hide glue was ever used.  On my 1784 Franz Xavier Seitz, I actually had a broken bridge repaired with HHG and it was fine ever after.

grm405 - Posted - 07/24/2014:  11:11:45

"What effect do you all think the "fanning" of the strings has on intonation?  What I mean is that the strings are closer together at the nut than at the bridge, so the outer strings will have a slightly longer scale length than the 3rd."

The fanning has an immeasurably small effect on the length of the string.  I just tried to calculate it for my Stelling and ended with a shorter length for the outer string because of rounding errors in my data entry and calculator (square and square root functions) (only entered 6 significant figures).  In fact the difference was 0.000005" shorter.  The actual string length would be slightly longer, but likely in the range of 0.0001".  Or less.

The square of the scale length is 18347.5.  The square of the difference in the nut and bridge spacing is 0.0093.  Add them together and take the square root.

Just redid it using the memory buffer vs manual entry and came up with a length difference of .0000055" for a 26 3/8" scale

Don't worry about it.

Gerry

Edited by - grm405 on 07/24/2014 11:16:39

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  11:41:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by grm405

"What effect do you all think the "fanning" of the strings has on intonation?  What I mean is that the strings are closer together at the nut than at the bridge, so the outer strings will have a slightly longer scale length than the 3rd."

The fanning has an immeasurably small effect on the length of the string.  I just tried to calculate it for my Stelling and ended with a shorter length for the outer string because of rounding errors in my data entry and calculator (square and square root functions) (only entered 6 significant figures).  In fact the difference was 0.000005" shorter.  The actual string length would be slightly longer, but likely in the range of 0.0001".  Or less.

The square of the scale length is 18347.5.  The square of the difference in the nut and bridge spacing is 0.0093.  Add them together and take the square root.

Just redid it using the memory buffer vs manual entry and came up with a length difference of .0000055" for a 26 3/8" scale

Don't worry about it.

Gerry

---

I was going to run the numbers later today, Gerry, but I knew just by running orders of magnitude in my head that it would be tiny to the point of insignificance.  Thanks for doing the work.  Five and a half millionths of an inch!

Another step forward in banjo science.  (I'm not kidding here . . . )

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 07/24/2014 11:43:19

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  11:48:54

There's a lot of debate in the acoustic guitar world re. hot hide glue. I use it for all plate center seam joints...as much because it doesn't gum up the wide belt sander belts as for any other reason! But it may sound better, too, and so we glue on top and back braces with it as well, and I'm fast enough with it to glue on tops and backs.

I don't see why anyone would use anything else for as important a glue joint as the saddle top on a banjo bridge. If that doesn't need absolute sonic transparency, nothing does.

steve davis - Posted - 07/24/2014:  12:04:11

I use Titebond in a bridge because the banjo sounds fine when I do.

Jimmy Cox uses Titebond II equivalent in his rims.

I heard him say one time that glue has come a long way since hide.

steve davis - Posted - 07/24/2014:  12:06:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by pickNgrin

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

It is entirely possible to carve an intonated bridge that has the same footprint as a "normal" straight bridge, 

---

There are actually some straight-footed compensated bridges on the market. The footprint is not the only thing... a compensated bridge necessarily has a different shape to it, and since all of the string energy has to pass through the bridge to get to the head, there is going to be a difference in the way it couples to the head.

 

---

My first efforts were on straight feet,but I found more stability when I went concentric.

Roll Player - Posted - 07/24/2014:  12:48:46

Thanks for running the numbers on the string length "fanning," Gerry. I didn't think it would be much, but that's really an insignificant difference!

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/24/2014:  13:00:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

There's a lot of debate in the acoustic guitar world re. hot hide glue. I use it for all plate center seam joints...as much because it doesn't gum up the wide belt sander belts as for any other reason! But it may sound better, too, and so we glue on top and back braces with it as well, and I'm fast enough with it to glue on tops and backs.



I don't see why anyone would use anything else for as important a glue joint as the saddle top on a

banjo bridge. If that doesn't need absolute sonic transparency, nothing does.

Rick

My guess would be that you could test that theory with 10 bridges..5 glued with a modern adhesive and the other 5 with hide and see how many trained ears could hear a difference, my guess would be zero and if they did get a few right, it would be them just guessing correctly.

Edited by - Banjophobic on 07/24/2014 13:01:54

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  13:15:38

Titebond II is rubber cement, for all intents and purposes. The only...only advantage to it is that it's waterproof. But then, you might as well use a nice hard epoxy. Titebonds all have pretty low temperature resistance, too. Hot car trunks are the luthier's friend...nice job security with those Titebond bridge and brace reglues in the summer time!

I'm once again going to suggest that you go look at Frank Ford's research on HHG.

I have access to a Lucchi meter, and that should do the trick on some tests.

And Steve, just try some HHG rather than saying your bridge sound fine as they are. I'm sure they sound fine; what if they could sound finer? You don't test, you don't know. Simple as that.

With "pre-war" being all the rage, I'd think that pre-war glue might be at least a consideration. No, it's not the best anymore for everything, but I like it for acoustically critical glue joints.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/24/2014:  13:40:34

Rick

i don't use Titebond  at all in the shop. I make HHG from pellets when needed for some repairs and LMI white for others and sometimes CA for  others applications. 

I don't think that thin seam between bridge top and body is enough for anyone to hear an difference in good LMI  or CA or Titebond, as long as the glue is minimum and the joint itself is very tightly fitted. I can kick Titebond out of any equation for myself as I don't use it, period, for instruments.  

All experienced luthiers know about the wonderful qualities of HHG and if they do t they need to get out more,haha. But for bridge tops as I described, I think the differences in "tone" transmission are negligible. 

steve davis - Posted - 07/24/2014:  13:50:48

I've never had one returned lack of tone (it's what I perform and record with) or falling apart so I'm not likely to change gluing habits.

Cox rims seem "adequate" using what he describes as Titebond II and he's got quite a good reputation.

Whichever glue you use,there isn't very much of it in a good glue joint.I'm going to make one with white Elmer's glue and see how that works.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/24/2014 13:55:09

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  15:47:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

 . . .  Titebonds all have pretty low temperature resistance, too. Hot car trunks are the luthier's friend...nice job security with those Titebond bridge and brace reglues in the summer time!  . . .

 

---

I can't believe there are people who would leave any instrument (even one secured with HHG) in the trunk of a car, summer or winter!  I've lived on the West Coast, in the Rockies, and the Midwest--I've never done that for any reason whatsoever.  If I have an instrument with me and have to make a stop, the instrument goes in with me.  Period.

I remember when Costco first opened in Kansas City.  I heard someone exclaim, "What is that guy carrying?"  I looked around and it was a musical colleague, violinist Babken Heroyan, carrying his violin case as he came in to shop.

My son certainly would not leave his oboe in the trunk.  

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  15:51:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

I don't see why anyone would use anything else for as important a glue joint as the saddle top on a banjo bridge. If that doesn't need absolute sonic transparency, nothing does.

---

Rick, how do you feel about the acoustic merit of having little posts between the saddle and the bridge itself?  I can see arguments both ways, but it seems so frou-frou to me.  (Bear in mind, though, that playing bowed strings means I spent a lot of time with bridges that have no saddle at all--the bridge is all maple, all of the time.)

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  16:19:34

Hah! Amazing, Steve. If you've never tried HHG, then how can you have an opinion on it for or against? Yeah, I know, that one glue line probably doesn't mean much, but it could mean something, and for such an easy thing to do, wouldn't it be worth it to at least try it? No, that's way too radical. Steve, I'd reconsider the closed mind as not being good for lutherie moving forward. Your mind must have been partially open at one point for you to consider intonated banjo bridges...which are a good idea.

Blows my little mind here how resistant some folks can be to just trying something as easy as "pre-war" glue. And that war would be the Korean War, not WWII.

When I was last at the Martin factory and played an incredible D-18 Authentic...all HHG assembled...I had lunch with Chris Martin, Dick Boak, and Tim Teel of the R&D department; it was he who developed the Authentic series. Tim told me that of all the things he tried, the one that seemed to have the greatest improvement effect was building the guitars with HHG instead of Titebond. If there's anyone I know who is in a position to judge something like this, it's Tim, and this was at a no-bulls..t get together. We also discussed issues like neck resets...very interesting as his take was exactly what I've observed...it's not the bellying of the tops so much; it's an overall change in the geometry of the guitar body with the back flattening out and the neck block rotating...the neck going with it. He said that if they could get away with making the backs flat, the guitars would never need resets...though other problems would happen....like the backs cracking and minor stuff like that!

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  16:32:13

There are people who leave their babies in the car. You hear about them on the news regularly. I'm sure there are many more that do the same with their instruments, but it's not particularly news-worthy.

I use hot hide glue when I want a joint that is as invisible as possible, and least likely to creep under heat and stress. I have no data to confirm or deny whether it affects tone quality positively or negatively. Only opinions, and the fact that some very respected luthiers offer it as an expensive option on their better instruments. 

I also use liquid hide glue, when I want similar characteristics, but a lot more working time, and the opportunity to clean up a messy gluing job. (like rosette making) I know that a lot of folks sneer at liquid hide glue, but it's worked well for me. Knox gelatin is one of the strongest hide glues, but has a very short working time. Might be something to try on a bridge top.

Something about hide glue that has always amused me is whether strict vegetarians and vegans ever lick stamps or the seals on envelopes, or eat Jello or marshmallows. 

DD

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  16:37:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Drabek

Something about hide glue that has always amused me is whether strict vegetarians and vegans ever lick stamps or the seals on envelopes, or eat Jello or marshmallows. 

---

 . . . not to mention the kosher considerations.

Tim Purcell - Posted - 07/24/2014:  17:33:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Drabek

There are people who leave their babies in the car. You hear about them on the news regularly. I'm sure there are many more that do the same with their instruments, but it's not particularly news-worthy.

I use hot hide glue when I want a joint that is as invisible as possible, and least likely to creep under heat and stress. I have no data to confirm or deny whether it affects tone quality positively or negatively. Only opinions, and the fact that some very respected luthiers offer it as an expensive option on their better instruments. 

I also use liquid hide glue, when I want similar characteristics, but a lot more working time, and the opportunity to clean up a messy gluing job. (like rosette making) I know that a lot of folks sneer at liquid hide glue, but it's worked well for me. Knox gelatin is one of the strongest hide glues, but has a very short working time. Might be something to try on a bridge top.

Something about hide glue that has always amused me is whether strict vegetarians and vegans ever lick stamps or the seals on envelopes, or eat Jello or marshmallows. 

DD

---

Also used as a fining agent for homebrewers....

Tim

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  17:53:27

Well, the very history of banjos is not very vegan. OK, a gourd and a stick. But then a skin head and gut strings!

Roger S. knows more about bridge design and string to head or top path than anyone I know. I know there is a bridge builder doing no-glue bridge tops pinning them on, but that doesn't seem to me to be as solid a system as doing a really good glue joint which will give 100% surface to surface contact between top saddle and lower bridge.

What I find curious is how folks can have such strong opinions on things they haven't tried. If you've tried HHG vs. Titebond and come up on one side or the other, that makes sense, but to advocate one over the other without trying... I'm merely suggesting that trying is a good idea, and it makes sense to me given my experience with other glue joints in acoustic instruments.

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  18:02:10

And Dan, pig hide glue (yes, it's available...) and rabbit hide glue...not Kosher. Cow hide glue...maybe...it probably depends on the method of dispatching the beast and who did it. Sheep gut strings can be OK, too. And yes, Tim, watch the brewski!

Anyone who has been in the front lines of instrument repair in a retail environment can tell you that a lot of people leave instruments in cars in the summer time, and yes, all hell breaks loose. We're talking job security for luthiers here. And black faced instruments on summer stages...not good! Titebond starts to go soft at about 130 F.; by 140 it's lost all it's tensile strength. Car trunks and even the regular interior can easily hit 150 F. on a hot day in the sun. HHG is good for about 10 degrees F. warmer than Titebond, and really only lets go easily with moist heat. That's why we use a cappuccio frother to make steam to get necks off of guitar bodies.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  18:05:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim Purcell

Also used as a fining agent for homebrewers....

---

 . . . and by winemakers!

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  18:09:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

And Dan, pig hide glue (yes, it's available...) and rabbit hide glue...not Kosher. Cow hide glue...maybe...it probably depends on the method of dispatching the beast and who did it. Sheep gut strings can be OK, too.   . . .

---

I raised the kosher queston (I'm the Jewish boy here).  I wasn't thinking of nonkosher animal hides; I was thinking of the prohibition of mixing meat and dairy.

BanjoLink - Posted - 07/24/2014:  18:35:50

I'd be shocked if Jimmy Cox uses Titebond II on his banjo rims!

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  19:18:05

Dan, just don't spill coffee with half and half on your skin headed banjo.

I have found WEST epoxy to be very hard upon full cure. I use it for laminating cylindrically curved thin bookmatched tops onto cylinder arched tops and backs on electric guitars.

The trick with HHG is to decant it into small plastic squeeze bottles (3 oz) with some stainless steel nuts and bolts in the bottom of the bottle to act as weights and also heat sinks. Then I drop the bottles into a traditional glue pot with water in it instead of the glue. Dispensing the glue is just as easy as with a Titebond-style glue. If you want a bit more open time, heat the parts either in a cabinet with a small electric heater or use a heat gun or infrared heat lamp. You can extend open time with urea (yeah, the old trick was to pee into the glue...a little bit), but I don't want stinky glue.

I've wound up with a list of about seven glues/adhesives that I use in lutherie, each chosen for particular jobs based on a list of characteristics and qualities. I'll dig up the list and post it. Hmmm, maybe it's eight or nine now! With some more "off-stage" waiting to be tried... I have no problem using whatever the latest adhesive technology might be...as I find it appropriate and without more negatives than positives for a particular application (no pun intended...).

I have noticed a distinct prejudice against hot hide glue...from people who don't know how to use it, from people who are afraid to learn how to use it, and from people whose prejudice against it is based on bad experiences with badly made vintage instruments slapped together with funky HHG. I came up as an apprentice luthier with HHG (1963), then again it was the glue of choice at Satterly and Chapin Music in SF in 1969. Then I discovered Titebond...and a lot of the problems with it (and some other techniques) in the early 1970s. I was too pigheaded to understand some of the issues I was running into until I left Alembic and started Turner Guitars, which gave me a chance to completely retool a new small factory and really think over problems and solutions.

Now I don't use any water bearing glue in any glue joint that will be negatively affected by moisture in the glue line. A big "no water based glue" joint in my book is fingerboard to neck. Epoxy all the way. Ditto with any multiple layer peghead face overlays and backstrap overlays. I would never laminate or glue up a banjo rim with a glue I know to be rubbery, and I would think that epoxy might be a great choice for a bunch of reasons, tone possibly being one.

Just because a glue sticks doesn't make it the best choice, and I think in building and repairing, we should constantly be seeking the best choice, not what we're used to or what we can get at the nearest hardware store. Ask yourself what the characteristics might be for best choice. Then try several possibilities. And be ready to eat it when something doesn't work out.

Sorry for thread drift, but...this is lutherie.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  19:25:44

There is always fish glue for those who are OK with non-mammals. (whoever that might be)

I used to think that epoxy was the strongest bonding agent. Until a friend built a large fantail launch and glued on the sheer strakes with West System epoxy. He figured there was no need for the traditional screw fasteners, since epoxy is stronger than the wood itself...right?

A day sitting in the boat yard in the hot sun and the epoxy joints failed and the strakes began popping away from the hull. He re-glued and re-fastened with screws. Epoxy is strong, and waterproof, and a good gap filler, but it creeps just like Titebond.

DD

Tim Purcell - Posted - 07/24/2014:  19:26:53

Rick, hope you don't mind.....great video..... youtube.com/watch?v=o5D0BThSZIk

Tim

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  19:29:31

Dan, I've not found it to creep unless exposed to heat. We have no issue with fingerboard or top lamination joints. Epoxies are very mix sensitive, though. We do have to apply more heat to remove a fingerboard that is epoxied than if it were Titebonded. Actually, I like being able to do this. Every now and then we have to replace a truss rod, and it's nice not to have to completely waste a fingerboard.

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  19:31:47

Thanks, Tim! I forgot that one! Hmmm, better clean up the shop.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  19:36:40

Rick, I assume you've tried Urea Formaldehyde glue? (Weldwood brand) Very hard setting, very strong, completely waterproof and zero creep. It's my glue of choice for things like rims, laminations or items that will be under tension. I wouldn't use it on a guitar bridge, because there is no way to make it release if you need to do repair. 

And, of course there's resorcinol glue. I've only used it a couple of times, because it makes for a damn ugly joint. But it's as waterproof as you can get. 

No idea about the acoustics of the above glues.

DD

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  19:49:07

I've used both urea formaldehyde glue (building interior doors...mortise and tenon or Lamello biscuits) and resorcinol for boat repair back when I was a kid. Both make for very visible glue lines. Both are very good glues in their place. I might have to try Weldwood again for something, but it is water-bearing...and I don't like adding water to a neck lamination layup. I don't want to build in any tension, hence epoxy.

steve davis - Posted - 07/24/2014:  19:54:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by BanjoLink

I'd be shocked if Jimmy Cox uses Titebond II on his banjo rims!

---

He has fresh glue made up for every batch and says himself it's the same thing as Titebond II.

What's shocking about that?

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  20:39:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim Purcell

Rick, hope you don't mind.....great video..... youtube.com/watch?v=o5D0BThSZIk

 

Tim

---

Tim, thanks for that link. Just spent an enjoyable hour watching it. 

DD

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  21:24:40

Steve, what's shocking is that Titebond II cures like barely hard rubber, and it can't handle heat worth a damn. The only advantage is that it cures slowly and is fairly water resistant.

But maybe rubber is what one wants in a banjo rim, innit?

Kind of weird how some folks can go all starry eyed about wood or roasting and not give a damn about the glue that holds it all together. And then people get all weird about finishes...shellac, French polished shellac, varnish, nitro lacquer, polyurethane, polyester...Big deal, right? Glue...the interface between layers of wood that are the heart of the instrument...might be worth a look-see, eh? The selective OCD kind of blows my mind here and on other lutherie forums. I choose to obsess over THIS, but THAT is totally beneath my dignity. (And maybe I'm too lazy to check it out anyway...) Then there's the pre-war obsessives...with all the changed out parts...and new convenient glue is great...and they don't build 'em like they used to...

Naaaahhh, couldn't possibly make a difference, could it...or...

And you won't know until you try, but if it's NIH (Not Invented Here...a classic syndrome of industry that squelches any ideas from the outside as being unworthy), then it must not be worth trying. The NIH attitude kills companies like Gibson and Fender at which designers and engineers are incentivized not to accept and develop outside designs or ideas because it calls into question their very existence. When I worked for Gibson, I could not even get ideas accepted in Nashville working from a West Coast office...too threatening to the status quo.

And Steve, I'd suggest that you question your own status quo and just try four or five other glues. You may...or may not...find a difference. But right now you have no idea whether or not such a difference may exist. You do what you do, and you're self-satisfied. Being self-satisfied kills further learning and innovation. If I were you, I'd want to be able to say to my customers, "I've done the work; I've done the experiments; this is the best, and here's why."

And this may not mean s..t, but, you've got three components of a bridge. Wood "A", wood "B", and some stickum...part "C"; maybe "D"...tung oil. You obviously think a lot about A and B and you've mentioned D. So what about C? Does it count? And how do you know?

I can recite chapter and verse of every examined failure and success in my choices of adhesives. And I'm still open to the next big thing. Cautious, but open.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  22:09:07

When they came out with the pre-mixed yellow carpenter's glue, I think many woodworkers flocked to it for the reason of convenience of use rather than superiority. It also required no learning process to achieve a good bond, and it was a bit more forgiving of gaps in the fit. Once it was accepted, the users, and makers of the glue were quick to point out all the flaws of the "old fashioned" hide glues. And once the claims were made, it quickly became "common knowledge" that hide glue was obsolete. I'm sure it's more profitable to manufacture and package a glue that is composed mostly of water. It's surprising how long it has taken for some of us to start re-evaluating hide glue, and exploring the ways in which it excels. 

The same thing happened with shellac as a finish. It's also experiencing a rebirth in the instrument trade, where you don't set your wet glass down on your guitar.

Similarly, for many years the paint industry has tried to convince us that polyurethane varnish was superior to oil varnish--especially in it's quicker drying properties. When in reality, it was simply less expensive to manufacture. Same with latex vs oil based paint. Water is a far cheaper ingredient than thinner, and you can charge the same price for a can of it. Plus, it's SO convenient to use. 

I doubted seriously that hide glue would ever find its way back into the large factories, but as Rick noted, even Martin is using it again in some of their highest priced instruments. And some very discriminating customers are willing to shell out the cash to pay for the extra labor. Whether the trend continues remains to be seen. I can't imagine that the furniture trade would ever use it again, but you never know. 

DD

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/24/2014:  22:41:33

Dan, I think our butts will be supported by Titebond-like glues for wooden furniture from now on, but...yes, the upcharge from the Martin Custom shop for an all-HHG constructed guitar is...drum roll please...$1,500.00.

rstevens - Posted - 07/24/2014:  23:18:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Hey,rstevens...my bridges cost $33 because they take a long time to carve.When I go cnc production maybe I can get that price down,but that's all speculation at this time.

I don't work for $5 an hour.

 

---

I'm not implying your bridges are expensive at $33 but I am wondering why you have to "dream" about getting a Peterson strobe tuner when the digital version is $12.99 and similar technology is available for as little as $5. 

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  23:37:14

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

 . . . the upcharge from the Martin Custom shop for an all-HHG constructed guitar is . . . drum roll please . . . $1,500.00.

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Wow!  Impressive indirect endorsement!

steve davis - Posted - 07/25/2014:  05:10:32

I ain't starry eyed about nothing...I just pay real close attention when Jimmy Cox speaks.

rstevens - Posted - 07/25/2014:  10:47:54

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

I ain't starry eyed about nothing...I just pay real close attention when Jimmy Cox speaks.

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I notice on his website that new Cox banjos are set up with straight bridges.

rudy - Posted - 07/25/2014:  11:23:01

quote:

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Originally posted by rstevens

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

I ain't starry eyed about nothing...I just pay real close attention when Jimmy Cox speaks.

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I notice on his website that new Cox banjos are set up with straight bridges.

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He knows it needs something to hold up the strings until the purchaser buys a real bridge.

xnavyguy - Posted - 07/25/2014:  11:45:50

Maybe it's just me but I'm wondering about the connection between glue and intonation, the original subject of this thread. :-)

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/25/2014:  12:12:01

quote:

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Originally posted by xnavyguy

Maybe it's just me but I'm wondering about the connection between glue and intonation, the original subject of this thread. :-)

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Jerry, those of us who had a life with the bowed strings know that everything affects intonation--the glue, the wood, the stain, the varnish, the phase of the moon, the river stage . . .  I could go on and on.

steve davis - Posted - 07/25/2014:  12:45:22

quote:

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Originally posted by rstevens

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

I ain't starry eyed about nothing...I just pay real close attention when Jimmy Cox speaks.

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I notice on his website that new Cox banjos are set up with straight bridges.

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And your point is that you aren't a fan of my bridge? Oh...I wouldn't have known.

I've never delved into a note by note study on my bridge,before.It was simply based on whatever happens after 0ing the 12th fret fretted notes.

I see there is more to it than proximity to each string to 0.

I'm going to be talking to a piano tuner soon and hope to gain more perspective concerning intonation and the relative sonic position of the fretted notes.

I'll have more accurate numbers(cents) after I borrow the Korg rack tuner.This will be interesting and may even produce an improvement if I concentrate on chasing more ideal tempering.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/25/2014 12:50:48

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/25/2014:  13:21:45

Dan, a $1,500.00 up-charge for all HHG is a bit much, but what it shows is that there is, at the very least, a high perceived value in using the stuff and being able to claim "pre-war" specs. OK, so they can't use Brazilian rosewood much, but...

CliffK - Posted - 07/25/2014:  14:49:00

Any thoughts on why compensated bridges have been the universal norm for years on electric guitars and basses, yet are unconventional on acoustic instruments (indeed controversial on banjos)?