steve davis - Posted - 07/21/2014:  14:20:54

It's not like like my bridge idea needs anyone's approval.

Very talented carvers ,instrument builders and recording engineers (along with my own tastes and sensibilities in these matters and lots of repeat customers) tell me that me and my little bridge have paid our dues and passed all "C" trials.

Anything else is just somebody else's opinion.

I know good when I hear and I know how to find it.Opinions have no affect on that,either.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/21/2014 14:22:26

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 07/21/2014:  15:24:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

As far as John evaluating my bridge,he has agreed with very little if anything I've ever said about it and would be very happy to prove to the world that my design is faulty or some kind of unsubstantiated dream.

Hardly an unbiased look by someone merely curious.

There is an agenda here,imo.

---

Steve,

Are you not biased? Do you not have an agenda?

I have dealt with John and trust him 100%. Remember when he left some of the forums a few years back for certain reasons and then reversed himself?

Ken

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/21/2014:  15:39:24

It was a great pleasure hearing David Lindley play several cumbus instruments at the Museum of Making Music in Carlsbad. They are basically Turkish banjos, if you will...a spun aluminum pot and adjustable angle necks. One was strung as a 12 string oud, one a saz, and one a very long necked tanbur. The saz and tanbur had tied on nylon frets and the fret spacing was NOT Western at all...these were "fretted" to Middle Eastern scales...and they sounded wonderful. Not normal, but wonderful.

Straight bridges on all of them... No problems with intonation...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BCm...%BC%C5%9F

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/21/2014:  15:51:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

It's not like like my bridge idea needs anyone's approval.

Very talented carvers ,instrument builders and recording engineers (along with my own tastes and sensibilities in these matters and lots of repeat customers) tell me that me and my little bridge have paid our dues and passed all "C" trials.

Anything else is just somebody else's opinion.

I know good when I hear and I know how to find it.Opinions have no affect on that,either

So I take it this means you are not going to send me a bridge to try, although you offered one previously, based on your assessment that , what, I am not qualified to test it? Haha, ok then no problem. I was genuinely interested in trying it and giving it a fair shake but guess I am not a talented enough repair and set up man to deserve it. 

Oh well can't any I didn't offer to take you up on your offer that you recanted...

Edited by - Banjophobic on 07/21/2014 15:52:56

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/21/2014:  16:50:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

It was a great pleasure hearing David Lindley play several cumbus instruments at the Museum of Making Music in Carlsbad. They are basically Turkish banjos, if you will...a spun aluminum pot and adjustable angle necks. One was strung as a 12 string oud, one a saz, and one a very long necked tanbur. The saz and tanbur had tied on nylon frets and the fret spacing was NOT Western at all...these were "fretted" to Middle Eastern scales...and they sounded wonderful. Not normal, but wonderful.



Straight bridges on all of them... No problems with intonation...



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BCm...%BC%C5%9F

 

---

I am jealous. Wish I were there.

DD

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/21/2014:  16:56:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

So I take it this means you are not going to send me a bridge to try, although you offered one previously, based on your assessment that , what, I am not qualified to test it? Haha, ok then no problem. I was genuinely interested in trying it and giving it a fair shake but guess I am not a talented enough repair and set up man to deserve it. 

Oh well can't any I didn't offer to take you up on your offer that you recanted...

---

No John. The danger is that you are knowledgeable and honest. I have no doubt that if you found the bridge to be exactly as claimed, you would happily eat crow. You have no horse in this race, unless it would be pure egotism. And if so, I have yet to see it..

DD

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/21/2014:  18:58:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Drabek

 

No John. The danger is that you are knowledgeable and honest. I have no doubt that if you found the bridge to be exactly as claimed, you would happily eat crow. You have no horse in this race, unless it would be pure egotism. And if so, I have yet to see it..

DD

---

I am wondering who these 'very talented carvers, builders and recording engineers' are and if they will join this discussion. And yes, i would be very fair and unbiased in a test situation, else it is not a 'test'. If Steve's bridge sounded great and really helped a banjos intonation I would be more than happy to report it here. I don't think theres any 'crow' to eat since I have never said that a compensated bridge wont help someone's banjo. If they hear that it has, then that is great. 

My main disagreements have been over some pretty outlandish claims about his bridges and pseudoscientific stuff  that go beyond just 'intonation', among other things. 

Edited by - Banjophobic on 07/21/2014 19:05:51

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/21/2014:  19:57:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

As far as John evaluating my bridge,he has agreed with very little if anything I've ever said about it and would be very happy to prove to the world that my design is faulty or some kind of unsubstantiated dream.

Hardly an unbiased look by someone merely curious.

There is an agenda here,imo.

---

Steve and John:

Maybe you should both stand down and create a DMZ, at least for as long as it takes for Steve to provide an example bridge to John, and for John to evaluate it and report back to Steve and the forum.

Steve:  John can't prove anything about your bridge that isn't true.  Neither can I.

John:  As an old buddy of mine in Wyoming always says, "Let's follow this and see what it eats . . . "

lazyarcher - Posted - 07/22/2014:  06:12:58

Johns offer to take the time to put Steves bridge through a series of professional trials is for sure a generous offer.

You don't get to continuously push a product on this site then disrespect a professional like John Boulding by attacking his integrity.

Performance talks, BS walks. Time to put rubber to the road.

I will gladly send the $30 for the bridge...non-refundable.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/22/2014:  06:13:12

Well the thread really wasn't about  certain bridges , but about obsessing over intonation. Thanks to everyone, including  Steve, for the discussion. Even thought things can get heated on forums, opinions and comments on them usually yield some good insights. 

For me the whole "bridge debate" is tiresome and I'm pretty much done with them. If I wasn't so busy playing banjo, I could one day figure out how to play one in tune..;). 

Edited by - Banjophobic on 07/22/2014 06:20:06

lazyarcher - Posted - 07/22/2014:  06:32:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

Well the thread really wasn't about  certain bridges , but about obsessing over intonation. Thanks to everyone, including  Steve, for the discussion. Even thought things can get heated on forums, opinions and comments on them usually yield some good insights. 

For me the whole "bridge debate" is tiresome and I'm pretty much done with them. If I wasn't so busy playing banjo, I could one day figure out how to play one in tune..;). 

---

I'm with you here.

My last few responses have been to stop worrying about the bridges and tone rings and newest gizmos and just learn to play the banjo.

Learn to play the banjo.

What a novel idea.

gospelman97 - Posted - 07/22/2014:  07:04:29

I think one of the reasons that these types of discussions often take the downhill spiral down the toilet bowl is that there are folks in two different camps that are speaking two different languages: 

1) We have the technical folks who are well versed in math and physics and understand many different aspects of the oddities of stringed instruments.  They use words like equal temperment, intonation, compensation, tensile strength, etc..  Their knowledge base is often very broad and can apply these ideas to a variety of instruments.  Generally speaking in the math and science world,  there is very little gray area when speaking about proven mathematical facts.

2) We have folks who are absolutely experts in playing or working on banjos (sometimes other instruments) and have many years of experience and a plethora of anecdotal data that supports their methods and ideas. When speaking about these ideas, it is sometimes difficult to express in a way that may be technically accurate and appropriate scientific vocabulary is not always used.

Combine this with individual personalities which can be very laid back or have a tendency to take every reply as a personal challenge, then the downhill spiral begins.  Group #1 can get frustrated because of the inaccurate replies from Group #2 and Group #2 folks get frustrated because they can't convey their thoughts to Group #1 in a satisfactory way.  So we get things like "Because it sounds better!" which would not be found in any scientific research...and so it goes on and on...and on...

I know that we all don't fit neatly into one of the two groups I mentioned.  I'm in the middle because of my math background. I can enjoy and appreciate some of the technical discussions, but when it comes down to it, I just want to play and it sound good.  All of these discussions won't make me sound any more like JD Crowe, so I'll keep on practicing.

I believe that these types of discussions have been in the Music Theory forum for a while, and now have shown up in the Setup forum when dealing with bridges and intonation.  Maybe we should take it to the TECH TALK forum next and talk about microphone cardiod patterns!  Lots of good math and physics there too! 

Edited by - gospelman97 on 07/22/2014 07:13:48

steve davis - Posted - 07/22/2014:  07:52:26

First of all this isn't a trial and you aren't the judge and jury,John.

If I say something it's automatically the truth.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/22/2014:  07:57:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

First of all this isn't a trial and you aren't the judge and jury,John.

If I say something it's automatically the truth.

---

Of course I am..everything I judge is automatically right or wrong..haha. Oh lord you are a piece of work and thanks for the chocolate milk that is now splattered all across my IPad. You can't buy this kind of stuff!  Oh well, I'm talking my leave now as there's a big case coming up and I need my robes dry cleaned...

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 07/22/2014:  07:57:59

Good post... Then you have those on the lower beginner level step, That "discovers" something that has been known and done for thousands of times... and claims/misrepresents it as their own "genius" invention..

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 07/22/2014 08:01:55

steve davis - Posted - 07/22/2014:  07:59:00

We all do as we please,John.

I'm just as much a piece of play as work.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 07/22/2014:  08:08:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

First of all this isn't a trial and you aren't the judge and jury,John.

If I say something it's automatically the truth.

---

Steve,

It is not about you telling the truth, but it seems you don't make allowances for the possibility of being wrong when you really believe you are right. It happens to all of us.

Ask  any guy that is married.

ken

rudy - Posted - 07/22/2014:  08:55:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by gospelman97

I think one of the reasons that these types of discussions often take the downhill spiral down the toilet bowl is that there are folks in two different camps that are speaking two different languages: 

1) We have the technical folks who are well versed in math and physics and understand many different aspects of the oddities of stringed instruments.  They use words like equal temperment, intonation, compensation, tensile strength, etc..  Their knowledge base is often very broad and can apply these ideas to a variety of instruments.  Generally speaking in the math and science world,  there is very little gray area when speaking about proven mathematical facts.

2) We have folks who are absolutely experts in playing or working on banjos (sometimes other instruments) and have many years of experience and a plethora of anecdotal data that supports their methods and ideas. When speaking about these ideas, it is sometimes difficult to express in a way that may be technically accurate and appropriate scientific vocabulary is not always used.

Combine this with individual personalities which can be very laid back or have a tendency to take every reply as a personal challenge, then the downhill spiral begins.  Group #1 can get frustrated because of the inaccurate replies from Group #2 and Group #2 folks get frustrated because they can't convey their thoughts to Group #1 in a satisfactory way.  So we get things like "Because it sounds better!" which would not be found in any scientific research...and so it goes on and on...and on...

I know that we all don't fit neatly into one of the two groups I mentioned.  I'm in the middle because of my math background. I can enjoy and appreciate some of the technical discussions, but when it comes down to it, I just want to play and it sound good.  All of these discussions won't make me sound any more like JD Crowe, so I'll keep on practicing.

I believe that these types of discussions have been in the Music Theory forum for a while, and now have shown up in the Setup forum when dealing with bridges and intonation.  Maybe we should take it to the TECH TALK forum next and talk about microphone cardiod patterns!  Lots of good math and physics there too!  

---

Thank you for that.  I believe there's a lot of honest truth in your analysis of the postings here.

I respect myself too much to participate in a public forum and make seat-of-the-pants statements about things I'm not thoroughly sure are true AND supported by scientific fact.  I did not come across the ability to understand these concepts and the science behind them easily, but I spent a LOT of time pouring over the details until I completely understood them because I care about music so much.

It does pain me to see anyone who doesn't give it the amount of careful study it deserves.  If someone is more interested in a sales pitch than understanding the basic laws of nature there's not much I can do to change that.  As I've stated before, most of our participants know how to separate the wheat from the chaff, and THAT'S "where the rubber hits the road".

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/22/2014:  12:00:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 . . .

If I say something it's automatically the truth.

---

If that is indeed the case, Steve, then I expect you to honor your offer to have John evaluate one of your bridges, just as I expect him to report back accurately and honestly.

And I will do likewise.

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 07/22/2014 12:01:23

pickNgrin - Posted - 07/23/2014:  12:49:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by gospelman97

[...] there are folks in two different camps that are speaking two different languages: 

1) We have the technical folks who are well versed in math and physics and understand many different aspects of the oddities of stringed instruments.  

2) We have folks who are absolutely experts in playing or working on banjos  

---

Well said. The folks in camp 1 tend to be good at winning internet arguments. But when it comes time to get up on a stage and play into a mic to 100 people, the advice coming from camp 2 suddenly makes a lot of sense. Booklearnin' vs. experience. 

Edited by - pickNgrin on 07/23/2014 12:51:10

banjoak - Posted - 07/23/2014:  15:14:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

Pure Pythagorean intervals is what the vast majority of folks listening to western music perceive as pleasing to the ear, and "perfect" ET is more than slightly off.  As I stated before, the third of the major triad is 14 cents sharp in ET, with the average listener being able to easily detect 3 cents of error.

---

Pythagorean tuning is much different scheme than Just intonation. The major thirds in PT are 408 cents; ET 400 cents, JI 386 cents. But more importantly on the perspective of intonation -

"what the vast majority of folks listening to western music perceive as pleasing to the ear" and

"the average listener being able to easily detect 3 cents of error"

These statements, IMO, points to a slight issue with these discussions.

The science, physics and even the music theory is quite fascinating - certainly can mathematically provide pretty solid answers, (it isn't that hard to follow, and will point to compensation) - but the one thing that the physics, math (as well as violin teachers)  tend to try and include is a quantitative theory (more hypothesis) prediction about human perception and cognition - about what they are supposed to notice; and find good or bad.

What it seems to ignore (or just get wrong) - it is not actually how or what the vast vast majority of people actually listen to in music. They listen to, perceive, music qualitative, holistically, the whole thing in context. There is this whole aspect of perception and COGNITION; which can be easily noticed that seem to defy the quantitative models. It includes what the amazing things the brain does (as well as what it can't do well) -

1. Folks don't evaluate the quantitative "in-tune" - rather just use qualitative perception; they might find a point they notice "out-of-tune" - so leaving a window of "in-tune"

2. that window size changes, is affected by context, in multiple ways. Actual notes produced, shape, duration, speed, amplitude; and each note's role in the music.

3. what else is happening with the music, other instruments, rhythm, construction of the music, and spirit/feel; as well as the environment, room, audience - to which the focus of intonation can get lowered; or that intonation issues get masked.

4. what folks perceive isn't always dichotomy of  in or out, nor just good or bad; and certainly it is the sum of the whole (to which some aspects are more important than others)

Music cognition studies points to the above, that folks don't really focus on that nth intonation (ET depends on it). But also interestingly point to that sometimes "tone/timbre" seems to play a very important role in what folks focus on. Supports what John and other pointed out - the tonal qualities of the bridge might outweigh theoretical intonation perfection.

So in the real world experience, (not some lab) does the set up seem to be capable of achieving all that is necessary for perception and cognition of how folks actually experience music?

chief3 - Posted - 07/23/2014:  15:53:29

Regarding the attention to intonation as it pertains to the banjo, I believe a banjo by the nature of it's design does not lend itself well to being played with good intonation. It is what it is. In some ways, but perhaps not to the same extent, I think the 5-string banjo falls into the same category as the honky-tonk piano where tuning, missing keys and other movable parts were not serious issues when producing some good sounding music. With all things considered, sometimes close enough can actually be good enough.

steve davis - Posted - 07/23/2014:  15:59:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 . . .

If I say something it's automatically the truth.

---

If that is indeed the case, Steve, then I expect you to honor your offer to have John evaluate one of your bridges, just as I expect him to report back accurately and honestly.

And I will do likewise.

---

I've sent one to you,Russ.

I'm waiting to see how that goes.

steve davis - Posted - 07/23/2014:  16:01:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

quote:

---

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

 . . .

If I say something it's automatically the truth.

---

If that is indeed the case, Steve, then I expect you to honor your offer to have John evaluate one of your bridges, just as I expect him to report back accurately and honestly.

And I will do likewise.

---

I've sent one to you,Russ.

I'm waiting to see how that goes.

I'm having misgivings of offering one to John.

He and I have a past.

---

I recorded each fret and strings' notes after locating the prime spot and will keep those results to compare with your findings,Russ.

I've always thought of it as proximity to 0 but now I'm looking into proximities to the well-tempered scale as I believe this may be where the sweet harmonies are coming from.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/23/2014 16:18:36

steve davis - Posted - 07/23/2014:  16:30:49

Here's a thought.

When you are done with it send it to John and that way we're all talking about the same bridge.

The Pope - Posted - 07/23/2014:  16:37:20

Good idea...

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/23/2014:  16:43:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Here's a thought.

When you are done with it send it to John and that way we're all talking about the same bridge.

---

A good idea indeed!

John, are you on board with that approach?

If so, then (at your convenience) please PM me your mailing address.

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 07/23/2014 16:44:39

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/23/2014:  16:49:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I recorded each fret and strings' notes after locating the prime spot and will keep those results to compare with your findings,Russ.

I've always thought of it as proximity to 0 but now I'm looking into proximities to the well-tempered scale as I believe this may be where the sweet harmonies are coming from.

---

At your convenience, please send a copy of your results.  (A scan is fine.)  I'll drop your data and mine (and John's, if he agrees) into a spreadsheet and even work up some graphs.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/23/2014:  16:55:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis on July 21

 

You are however welcome to try out one of my bridges to do with as you please...just like anybody else you will have your opinion which won't have any affect on how the bridge performs as it already does.

Just send me your address.

 . . .

I don't expect rave reviews from you,John,but try and stay with just the facts and an unbiased point of view(as much as possible).

I'll be able to replicate any situation you may come up with to answer any questions. 

---

Just a reminder, Steve; "misgivings" or no, "a past" or not, you did make these statements to John in a public forum.

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 07/23/2014 17:02:08

steve davis - Posted - 07/23/2014:  17:01:24

What I'm really interested in is "overlaying" the results on a tempered set of notes.I'm not sure of nomenclature,but I want to know how related they are.

I didn't record the cents flat or sharp.I checked for departure from 0 in general and found less than 5 cents on the few worst ones on 2 and 3 and found up to 10 cents deviation with a 5/8 Grover.

The thing of that is taking into account which side of 0 a note falls.

A 4 cent sharp Grover note compared to a 4 cent flat Davis note is 8 cents difference.

The G struggles in places to keep within a nickel.I'm starting a study on this tempered deal.My band has a rack mount korg tuner and I need to get that for a month and work on more accurate "pennies" than my 30 year old korg dt-2 can provide.

I've made the journey thusfar with that old korg.

I dream of a strobe(Peterson?) for even more accuracy.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/23/2014 17:03:04

steve davis - Posted - 07/23/2014:  17:05:17

I don't know about that,Russ.

The things said between me and John in the past were all said right here...no mystery.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/23/2014:  19:33:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Here's a thought.

When you are done with it send it to John and that way we're all talking about the same bridge.

---

A good idea indeed!

John, are you on board with that approach?

If so, then (at your convenience) please PM me your mailing address.

---

Sure, once you are done with the bridge send it my way. I will provide my address here. Send it to John  Boulding C/O NoteAble Repair, 148 Tulip Lane Mount Airy NC, 27030.

Steve I will gladly report on your bridges intonation characteristics on any and every banjo available in the shop, including my own, will all the set ups. I will aslo take note of tone changes with your bridge and compare the tone and intonation with the many brand name straight bridges in stock. You can be sure I will be unbiased and report what I find.  When dealing with banjo 'stuff', I am all business... 

Edited by - Banjophobic on 07/23/2014 19:34:22

rstevens - Posted - 07/23/2014:  19:40:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I dream of a strobe(Peterson?) for even more accuracy.

 

---

Get it on your phone or iPad for less than 1/2 the cost of one of your bridges.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 07/23/2014:  20:24:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Here's a thought.

When you are done with it send it to John and that way we're all talking about the same bridge.

---

A good idea indeed!

John, are you on board with that approach?

If so, then (at your convenience) please PM me your mailing address.

---

Russ & John,

I may be in way over my head and will respect your telling me so if this is true, but I don't see the importance that Steve puts on, and that you all agree to, in wanting the same bridge tested. If the purpose of Steve's bridges is to insure a certain accuracy, how can the bridge be judged effective if there is fluctuation between different bridges?

Thanks,

ken

HarleyQ - Posted - 07/23/2014:  21:04:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Here's a thought.

When you are done with it send it to John and that way we're all talking about the same bridge.

---

A good idea indeed!

John, are you on board with that approach?

If so, then (at your convenience) please PM me your mailing address.

---

Russ & John,

I may be in way over my head and will respect your telling me so if this is true, but I don't see the importance that Steve puts on, and that you all agree to, in wanting the same bridge tested. If the purpose of Steve's bridges is to insure a certain accuracy, how can the bridge be judged effective if there is fluctuation between different bridges?

Thanks,

ken

---

 I agree!!

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/23/2014:  21:29:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

Russ & John,

I may be in way over my head and will respect your telling me so if this is true, but I don't see the importance that Steve puts on, and that you all agree to, in wanting the same bridge tested. If the purpose of Steve's bridges is to insure a certain accuracy, how can the bridge be judged effective if there is fluctuation between different bridges?

Thanks,

ken

---

Ken and Hoyt--

Thanks to both of you for chiming in.  Ken, I think you are addressing "consistency of product" and that is certainly a valid concern.  However:

What has happened--you can roll back the thread to July 21, then read forward--is that Steve offered to provide John with a bridge for evaluation, review, and comment.  Steve and I struck a separate but similar agreement.

As you will see in the thread, Steve subsequently reconsidered.  He recanted his offer to provide John with a bridge and now suggests that I forward the exemplar he sends me to John after I have finished with it.  

This precludes me doing as extensive an evaluation as I had hoped (I am after all an engineer), but we work with what we get.  It also precludes me from going ahead and purchasing the bridge if I like it and want to keep it--although I suppose I could, some weeks down the road, get it back from John when he has finished with it.

I don't think there is an enormous advantage in it being the same bridge, either; in fact, I'd much prefer that John work with a different piece so that, together, we can have more data points.  I'm disappointed, of course, but it's Steve's bridge and he's making the rules in terms of what he is willing to provide, and how, and to whom.

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 07/23/2014 21:44:37

Aradobanjo - Posted - 07/24/2014:  04:29:49

Hello, 

I would prefer N-Track Tuner as the iOS app. This was recommended here in another forum. Much cheaper too.  

steve davis - Posted - 07/24/2014:  05:53:35

Until I go cnc production all my bridges will vary by a certain number of thousandths in their correction because each one is hand carved until I think it's done.

I dream of the day I go cnc and make every bridge's compensation identical.I believe I can make a jig in the form of a router template for more precise repeatability(time saver,too).

I'll grab a different one out of inventory and do the real numbers flat/on/sharp on that one and compare with John's and Russ's on that one.

Hey,rstevens...my bridges cost $33 because they take a long time to carve.When I go cnc production maybe I can get that price down,but that's all speculation at this time.

I don't work for $5 an hour.

Your bridge weighs 2.22 grams,Russ.

I'll send John as identical a one to your(Grizzly ebony/St George High School schoolteacher's maple desk base) 5/8 x 1 11/16 as possible so don't send that first one to John.You might consider swapping them after your done with the tests to check their consistency.

I'll make mine the same way,then there'll be three of that iteration.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/24/2014 06:07:23

Aradobanjo - Posted - 07/24/2014:  06:13:25

Hello,

Hopefully, no one gets that pay as regular pay. 

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  06:17:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aradobanjo

Hello, 

I would prefer N-Track Tuner as the iOS app. This was recommended here in another forum. Much cheaper too.  

---

I got the insTuner​ for my iPad Air--there is a free version, too, but I bought the full-featured one and it is indeed full-featured.  I tested it in my shop against a digital frequency synthesizer, measuring with both a frequency counter and an oscilloscope.  The accuracy is amazing and it cost less than $5.

steve davis - Posted - 07/24/2014:  06:21:06

Wow,and I make the things with a 25 cent protractor with 5 holes drilled in it.The formula was figured out with a piece of maple from the woodpile and a hog-ring.

I don't know how we're gonna fair under microscopes,but I'm sure I'll learn something,too.

xnavyguy - Posted - 07/24/2014:  06:42:36

For what it's worth and I can't remember all the hairy details because we didn't write anything down.



Some time back, my friend and fellow bridge junkie, Art Horan (Roll Player) got one of Steve's compensated bridges and, together, we checked the intonation on 13 different banjos with scale lengths that varied between 26 and 27 1/2 inches. In all cases, the fretted notes, measured with an electronic tuner were much more accurate with Steve's bridge than with a straight bridge. Now that, to me, sounds like a good thing.



I, for one, don't like to have to constantly re-tune during a gig, every time there is a key change and I have to capo because of it. Steve's bridge pretty much eliminates that problem except for slight tweaks on the 5th string when it is spiked.



The only other thing my oldtimer's disease lets me remember is that Art made the comment that he didn't think the 2nd string needed as much compensation as Steve's bridge allows.



All of the banjos we used in our "test" were fitted with light gauge strings and very low string clearance at the nut.

We play regular gigs every month.  Sometimes Art plays a banjo with a straight bridge.  Other times he plays a banjo with one of Steve's bridges.  During our gigs when Art is using one of Steve's bridges, he rarely has to do any re-tuning.

Edited by - xnavyguy on 07/24/2014 06:47:50

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 07/24/2014:  07:01:09

BINGO!! Now we know whats happening.... Steve your post illustrates the classic symptoms & readings of a bridge out of place..
The common beginner misconception is that measuring 1/2 each way and or O on the harmonics is the correct bridge placement... It works for a start but not for the final adjustment... You can have the bridge out 1/8 in either direction and it will still chime or zero at the 12..

No wonder your having intonation woes and your banjo doesn't sound quite right on your soundfiles..

The easiest way to get correct (or very close).. First make sure you have the G center on the neck.. and tail piece also...
Tune the high and low D strings... and then.. Move the bridge until it is dead on at the" 17th fret"for those two strings..
Even with the Korg tuner, this should be pretty close to having the bridge in the correct position...

Now do your readings again and you will see quite a difference..

steve davis - Posted - 07/24/2014:  07:17:09

I have no idea what you are going on about,Ken.I know exactly where my bridges are and if they could speak they'd tell you that they feel right at home.

I can't relate to you.

I'm kinda busy,here if you don't mind.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/24/2014 07:18:38

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 07/24/2014:  07:25:51

?????No idea... Of basic settup procedures???????????????

Give it up guys...

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/24/2014:  07:45:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I'll grab a different one out of inventory and do the real numbers flat/on/sharp on that one and compare with John's and Russ's on that one.

 . . .

I'll send John as identical a one to your(Grizzly ebony/St George High School schoolteacher's maple desk base) 5/8 x 1 11/16 as possible so don't send that first one to John.You might consider swapping them after your done with the tests to check their consistency.

I'll make mine the same way,then there'll be three of that iteration.

---

Thanks, Steve.  That sounds like a much better plan, one that serves our mutual intentions much more effectively!

Jerry, thanks for contributing Art's and your experience to the conversation.  I know there are others who have a Davis bridge out there--maybe just lurking?--and I, for one, would certainly like to hear from them as well.

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 07/24/2014 07:57:25

steve davis - Posted - 07/24/2014:  07:54:09

I hear from them all the time and get nice thank you letters from them.

pickNgrin - Posted - 07/24/2014:  08:33:32

It seems obvious to me that a properly made compensated bridge will intonate better than a straight bridge (according to a tuner). Steve is not the only one who makes a compensated bridge... there is nothing new there in concept. Grover, Stew-Mac, Golden Gate, Moon, Hatfield, etc all make compensated bridges. I have no doubt that Steve's will test better than a straight bridge in this regard. A better intonated bridge will naturally be less prone to having one or more strings going out of tune when you put on a capo.

Steve's design has a weird "footprint" on the head... therefore it is going to drive the head differently than a straight bridge. Maybe for better, maybe for worse, but it will have an impact on tone and response. Unfortunately (or fortunately), tone is subjective, so that aspect of the bridge can't really be tested. For my money, that is what will make or break a bridge, not intonation. Most hardcore bluegrass players use a straight bridge because they feel it gives them better tone and "pop". Compensated bridges have been around for 30+ years, yet most pro bluegrass pickers do not use them.

I am not trying to downplay Steve's (or any one else's bridge). The original point of this thread was that intonation is not that big of a deal. If you have to sacrifice tone and response to get it, many people do not feel that it is a good trade. All of those compensated bridges that I mentioned exist for a reason... because some people feel that they are worth it. It comes down to each person's subjective opinion, and no bench test is going to help with that.

Edited by - pickNgrin on 07/24/2014 08:40:14

steve davis - Posted - 07/24/2014:  08:39:33

As much alike as all banjos are there are a million ways to set one up to what we want.