banjopickingman - Posted - 07/25/2014:  15:06:57

quote:

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Originally posted by CliffK

Any thoughts on why compensated bridges have been the universal norm for years on electric guitars and basses, yet are unconventional on acoustic instruments (indeed controversial on banjos)?

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A few possible reasons:

1. Fewer players = less research

2. Banjo builder/player's greater adherence to tradition

3. Less standardization of tuning, scale length, string materials

grm405 - Posted - 07/25/2014:  15:36:30

4.  Banjos have far less need for compensation as there is a much smaller difference between the smallest and largest strings compared to a guitar.  So small in fact that most players live with small flaws for the ability to switch between various bridges.

5.  Weight is a highly critical  parameter of banjo bridge construction and compensated bridges, in general, weigh more than straight bridges.  Especially the old stair-step ones which weigh about twice the weight of a normal banjo bridge.

6.  Slanting the bridge is often used on banjos also, if needed or desired by the player.

7.  It is not the shift between solid and wrapped strings which is critical, but the string stiffness.  It turns out that most wrapped banjo strings have about the same stiffness as the unwound banjo strings as that is the diameter of the core of the string.

Gerry

Edited by - grm405 on 07/25/2014 15:37:12

Alex Z - Posted - 07/25/2014:  15:48:45

All banjo bridges, except those on fretless banjos, end up "compensated," meaning that they are not set exactly to the scale length, but longer.  If a straight bridge were set exactly to the scale length, then all the fretted notes would end up sharp because the stiffness of the strings in effect reduces the vibrating length of the strings.

Slanting a straight bridge -- as is done on an steel string guitar --  imposes a second type of compensation.

So the issue under discussion is "differentially compensated" bridges -- a third type of compensation -- and (a) whether or not the differential compensation improves the intonation relative to the tempered scale of the frets (a no brainer), and (b) whether or not the differential compensation improves a player's personal preference for the overall sound and/or intonation of the banjo (likely unsolvable).

We can get used to a lot, and then it sounds "right" -- like the E major chord that Mr. Flatt played on the original recording of Foggy Mountain Breakdown.  To me, that's the way the tune is supposed to be played, and an E minor always sounds little uptown to me.  

Edited by - Alex Z on 07/25/2014 15:49:50

CliffK - Posted - 07/25/2014:  15:49:55

Stiffness is the same as string tension?
I remember seeing a string tension chart for string gauges (by D'Adario, I think), so one could assemble a set to create a desirable total tension.

banjoak - Posted - 07/25/2014:  15:57:34

Stiffness and tension are not the same thing.

etparadox - Posted - 07/25/2014:  16:17:05

To elaborate on stiffness vs tension, The stiffness of a string is it's resistance to bending. The tension is the force pulling on the string. They work together, but are separate entities. 

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/25/2014:  16:27:14

quote:

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Originally posted by CliffK

Any thoughts on why compensated bridges have been the universal norm for years on electric guitars and basses, yet are unconventional on acoustic instruments (indeed controversial on banjos)?

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I assume you refer here to fretted instruments.  

Compensated bridges aren't necessary, for instance, on the unfretted bowed strings.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/25/2014:  16:32:26

quote:

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Originally posted by CliffK

Stiffness is the same as string tension?

I remember seeing a string tension chart for string gauges (by D'Adario, I think), so one could assemble a set to create a desirable total tension.

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I think this is the d'Addario document (it's 14 pages long--much more than a chart!) to which you are referring:

daddario.com/upload/tension_ch...13934.pdf

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/25/2014:  16:53:47

quote:

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Originally posted by xnavyguy

Maybe it's just me but I'm wondering about the connection between glue and intonation, the original subject of this thread. :-)

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Some threads are fortunate enough to grow beyond the original topic, rather than fall in lock step and die an early death. I like to sit back and enjoy the flow of information. It's all good.

DD

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/25/2014:  17:00:36

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

Dan, a $1,500.00 up-charge for all HHG is a bit much, but what it shows is that there is, at the very least, a high perceived value in using the stuff and being able to claim "pre-war" specs. OK, so they can't use Brazilian rosewood much, but...

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Last time I looked, the upcharge for Brazilian was on the order of $6K to $12K depending on the status of the builder, and the quality of the BR. Hide glue construction may well be a bargain if you're simply after sound quality. If you're after looks, I'm happy to settle for Mad Rose. But in the near future we'll probably all be playing maple. Unless somebody starts cloning Brazilian.

DD

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/25/2014:  17:04:51

quote:

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Originally posted by CliffK

Any thoughts on why compensated bridges have been the universal norm for years on electric guitars and basses, yet are unconventional on acoustic instruments (indeed controversial on banjos)?

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If you're talking about non-adjustable compensated bridges, most of the better SS acoustic guitars have them. If you're talking about adjustable compensated bridges, they're too heavy for acoustic. Gibson made action-adjustable saddles for a while, and they were a dismal failure.

DD

CliffK - Posted - 07/25/2014:  18:56:48

I guess I'm out of touch with the better guitars, I am thinking of straight saddles on fretted guitars. Didn't consider slanted saddles as a compensation, but I see that it is. Fwiw, I have heard more than once that the violin is one of the hardest instruments to master because of intonation. I have read that a lot of critics hated John Coltrane because he played sharp.

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/25/2014:  19:15:12

The norm these days on steel string acoustic guitars is to do an overall slant to the saddle and then a zig-zag from low E to the wound G, then back for the unwound B and up to the high E.

As was noted, a wound string is usually more flexible than a neighboring unwound, hence not needing as much compensation...the total string length is slightly shorter for a guitar G than for it's neighboring B.

And the use of the tunamatic adjustable bridge on Gibson J-200s was one example of a bad idea gone worse! 1963 and '64 were not good years for guitars coming out of Kalamazoo! Tunamatics, height adjustable ceramic saddles, plastic bridges...whew! What were they thinking? Oh...$$$$$

CliffK - Posted - 07/25/2014:  19:36:11

I guess rather than making a declarative statement I could have asked:
How do builders and players of other fretted stringed instruments deal with intonation?

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/25/2014:  21:56:39

Classical and flamenco guitars typically have un-compensated saddles. In fact, most are straight as well. I would guess it's because nylon strings are more flexible than steel strings and don't change their intonation as much when fretted. I've never built a nylon string banjo, but I would imagine it would also be more forgiving of stretch.

DD

Explorer - Posted - 07/26/2014:  00:01:52

I've seen all kinds of discussion over the years where someone says, "We did without accurate tuners / compensation / learning musical notation to be able to write down and work with ideas/ / having Positraction and ABS on the car in bad weather, and we loved it!"

I guess I see accurate compensation as being like accurate tuning or practicing good timing. I've had people insist that they could tune accurately but were demonstrably off when we listened back to recordings, or who felt their timing was perfect but they couldn't play accurately when we were laying down a track. Every one else could tell... but the person just couldn't hear the problem.

As standards get higher, people can tell when someone's tuning is only "good enough for gubmint work," even if the person tuning can't.

As for fingers being able to "compensate" for off intonation, I doubt it. i just think that ears are used to the intonation being off.

Just my opinions, of course.

steve davis - Posted - 07/26/2014:  03:33:12

I suppose it has a lot to do with what we want something to sound like.

I feel its more in the experience of playing.Expecting a sweeter harmony and then receiving it.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/26/2014:  06:35:34

quote:

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Originally posted by Explorer

 

As for fingers being able to "compensate" for off intonation, I doubt it. i just think that ears are used to the intonation being off.

Just my opinions, of course.

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I will have to say you are wrong here. From a players perspective, I can hear when a certain note if slightly off, be it a tuning issue on a string for example, and then micro adjust that note by pushing the string with my finger in a way to micro bend it back into better tuning. And I am not special in this ability. I think most experienced players gain that ability. You actually have that line backwards: the "ears are used to hearing good intonation/tuning " and that is why the player micro bends the notes.

Rick_S - Posted - 07/26/2014:  08:03:26

Good players DO make these micro adjustments, and the best players DO play more in tune than others. But there is a limit. You can bend a flat note and correct it, but you can't do much with a sharp note except to avoid it.

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/26/2014:  09:44:16

Actually, with nylon strings, you can flatten a slightly sharp note by literally pushing the string toward the bridge. It's really only useful for a sustained note, though.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 07/26/2014:  10:04:10

Dunno John.. That running the B string a half step flat really sticks out when you know where its supposed to be... But you dang sure can't tell them old timers their out of tune..."thats right on boy".. You can't tell them that they are trying to compensate for a different tuning/scale/intonation.. When they've never heard of such a thing or  know it exists.. even though thats exactly what their trying to do..

"they learnt it thataway"...

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 07/26/2014 10:08:03

Rick_S - Posted - 07/26/2014:  10:20:52

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

Actually, with nylon strings, you can flatten a slightly sharp note by literally pushing the string toward the bridge. It's really only useful for a sustained note, though.

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And come to think of it, good technique also keeps you from contributing to a problem, by not inadvertently bending a string sharp, and by not pressing the strings harder than needed.

steve davis - Posted - 07/26/2014:  13:25:59

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick_S

Good players DO make these micro adjustments, and the best players DO play more in tune than others. But there is a limit. You can bend a flat note and correct it, but you can't do much with a sharp note except to avoid it.

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I agree 100%,Rick.

And there is powerful harmony in certain flatted notes.Low alto singing comes to mind.There is beauty in flatted notes that sharped ones don't have.

Emmylou,Joni Mitchell and Joan Baez have great senses of good flatness.

jbanjoist - Posted - 07/27/2014:  07:30:21

GIven all that I personally do not like the fact that the 3rd string sounds sharp when fretted and played against open strings. Whole chords ok as they are all fretted but against open, yuck.

The B string is always interesting isn't it. Tune it to dead on D fretted at the 3rd fret, which is actually a little under true B, and it can be the smallest bit flat at the 9th and up.

Nothing to stop the show and many won't hear it but it does.

Then if you adjust the bridge placement to fix that the first and third will be sharp.

Fun fun. But it is about perspective which is playing at speed you rarely notice it and what we picky listeners can be satisfied with.

I do use Tim Purcells 3rd string compensated bridges. If it works I go with it.

Lew H - Posted - 07/27/2014:  10:40:19

Would switching strings, say from medium to light, make a difference in the amount of compensation needed for each string--or does the relative difference between strings stay about the same when switching? If that difference changes, then (obviously) different compensated bridges would be needed for each type of string set. Just curious!

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 07/27/2014:  13:43:33

As stated before (over and over)... If you have a good quality banjo and the centerline is true with the pot and tailpiece.. and a good playing settup...



There is no need for more than 99+ percent of banjo players to obsess over compensation on their banjo.. A good straight bridge has stood the test of time for many years and playing... Its the "standard" arrived at for good reasons..



If you see or have a banjo with the bridge radically slanted trying to note better, Then the problem is else where..ie the banjo construction or settup or between the ears..



If you read through this topic, it jumps out that many, especially the "self proclaimed experts" really don't have any idea of proper bridge placement and its effect or not on intonation..



There are a no. of the top people "Gurus" posting, People who are in the professinal world, with many years of experience.. Study what they say and learn..(thanks John)

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 07/27/2014 13:50:18

Teresa Arch - Posted - 07/27/2014:  19:21:42

Yes rudy i am. I actually only needed bridge advice, but i think ive encountered more than i can ignore.

Teresa

rudy - Posted - 07/27/2014:  19:30:21

quote:

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Originally posted by Teresa Arch

Yes rudy i am. I actually only needed bridge advice, but i think ive encountered more than i can ignore.



Teresa

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Oh, but you must!

Actually, a big welcome aboard to you.  I think you'll find the majority of the 88.498 active Hangout members to be quite congenial, with only a few that might exhibit behavior that many would find to be less than what we would consider to be acceptable on a public forum, but we love them just the same.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/27/2014:  20:00:27

Abandon hope all ye who enter here. 

DD

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/27/2014:  20:21:47

"The Truth" is kind of negotiable around here...or a better word might be "claimable"... when served with enough linguistic bombast, repetition, and perseverance.

It's a matter of just wearing everyone down that counts.

That's how we know that if you have a certain absolutely perfect bridge, you'll not only play more in tune than all of Heaven's angelic harpists, but you'll also sound better than Earl Scruggs, Bill Keith, and Bela Fleck all playing together on their best ever day. You'll never have to re-tune, either; the bridge will do it all for you. If you're lucky, the bridge will restring your banjo for you every week, and if you say the right words of praise, it will give you the perfect setup so you barely have to press the strings down to get clear, loud notes, and the bridge will tension your head to the best it can possibly be as the feet automatically adjust to the down pressure and also it will arc for Bluegrass picking and flatten out for clawhammer.

We call it the iBridge...and there's an app for your Red Apple Juice enabled phone. You won't even have to play banjo to prove you're the greatest. Just whip out the iPhone, log onto the Banjo Hangout Forum...and here you are.

Teresa Arch - Posted - 07/28/2014:  05:06:27

Thank you Rick! i think i see the bad apple in the lot here! i recently was able to replace my bridge with a 5-8 stock model for my deering goodtime at a local music store. they had a variety of accesories and other items. in a case they had banjo tuners anywhere from $35 to $140. The guy went on to explain that once the Shaller tuners were in tune, youd never touch them again. i thought, if im paying that for banjo tuners, id sure love to play with them once in awhile !

teresa

etparadox - Posted - 07/28/2014:  07:07:58

Anyone who says you'll never have to tune your banjo also may be familiar with negotiable truths. 

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/28/2014:  08:09:19

quote:

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Originally posted by Teresa Arch

 . . .  The guy went on to explain that once the Shaller tuners were in tune, youd never touch them again.   . . .

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Teresa, don't mention the name of the store; I fear a stampede will ensue.

Of course, there is a contingent of persons out there who will maintain that we never touch the tuners in the first place . . .

stevel - Posted - 07/28/2014:  08:11:57

sounds like randyz and raymondb all over again.

its bizarre watching folks create accounts just to follow steve davis around.

steve davis - Posted - 07/28/2014:  08:18:04

Looks like I have a new Auntie Fan.

Teresa Arch - Posted - 07/28/2014:  09:18:05

Rawhide, are new tuners something i should consider on my goodtime? The ones that came with seem fine.

Teresa

Danaher - Posted - 07/28/2014:  09:26:19

I'm new to banjo, and I just bought a used one, but it's not very loud and I find it hard to play.  It doesn't have one of those "bridge" things you folks are talking about.  Do you think it might help if I add one to my banjo?  Does anyone have any opinions on what kind of bridge might be good or all they all pretty much the same?

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/28/2014:  10:38:32

There's a nice bridge in Brooklyn, and it's not the same.

Teresa Arch - Posted - 07/28/2014:  10:38:55

hi danaher
i just went thru the bridge ordeal this weekend myself. according to my guy at the store, theyre all pretty much the same. some more expensive, some alot cheaper. he suggested i learn how to just play, before delving too deep into it. so thats my goal starting now !
Teresa

grm405 - Posted - 07/28/2014:  10:40:16

It doesn't have one of those "bridge" things you folks are talking about.

Is this a joke?

Gerry

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/28/2014:  11:52:37

quote:

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Originally posted by Teresa Arch

Rawhide, are new tuners something i should consider on my goodtime? The ones that came with seem fine.



Teresa

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Teresa, unless or until you identify problems with the tuners you already have on your Goodtime, don't worry about it.  If they seem fine, they probably are fine.  Don't spend the money.

(There are lots of other things you can spend the money on--books, lessons, cheap wine, you name it.  Or start a savings account for your next banjo . . . )

I've been thinking about new tuners myself, but I'm a cheap SOB*.

Russ

*stands for "Swell Ol' Boy".

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 07/28/2014 12:03:57

Danaher - Posted - 07/28/2014:  12:17:01

Yeah, it was a joke.  Figured after 12 pages, another bridge argument had already gotten pretty silly.  

Teresa, sounds like good advice about learning to play before worrying about it.  I know that bridges are  one of the key things that affect tone, but I don't have the cash to be able to try lots of different ones, so I tend to stick with the one that came with.

Also,  my lack of a discerning ear is such that when I play around anybody else, I use the cliche "I've suffered for my music, now its your turn".

Texasbanjo - Posted - 07/28/2014:  13:08:58

I have hidden a couple of posts that were flaming and/or of a religious nature. 

rudy - Posted - 07/28/2014:  14:46:59

quote:

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Originally posted by Teresa Arch

hi danaher

i just went thru the bridge ordeal this weekend myself. according to my guy at the store, theyre all pretty much the same. some more expensive, some alot cheaper. he suggested i learn how to just play, before delving too deep into it. so thats my goal starting now !

Teresa

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That's actually pretty good baseline advice.

When you figure out that you need a better bridge you can check out a reliable retailer to see what bridges are considered reputable, that way you don't have to takie a chance on someone's home-brew efforts.

Many of the bridge makers that you see represented on the Hangout make bonafide quality products and make them available from Elderly or other quality retailers.  Nothing wrong with a direct purchase, but this assures a purchaser that the bridge is accepted by a wide range of players and the retailer stands behind the product.

rudy - Posted - 07/28/2014:  14:49:13

quote:

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

I have hidden a couple of posts that were flaming and/or of a religious nature. 

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I appreciate it, a personal thanks for not making us suffer through that.

Teresa Arch - Posted - 07/28/2014:  15:28:26

quote:

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

I have hidden a couple of posts that were flaming and/or of a religious nature. 

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My apologies Texasbanjo, i believe that was me.

Teresa

steve davis - Posted - 07/28/2014:  20:23:33

quote:

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Originally posted by rudy

quote:

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Originally posted by Teresa Arch

hi danaher

i just went thru the bridge ordeal this weekend myself. according to my guy at the store, theyre all pretty much the same. some more expensive, some alot cheaper. he suggested i learn how to just play, before delving too deep into it. so thats my goal starting now !

Teresa

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That's actually pretty good baseline advice.

When you figure out that you need a better bridge you can check out a reliable retailer to see what bridges are considered reputable, that way you don't have to takie a chance on someone's home-brew efforts.

Many of the bridge makers that you see represented on the Hangout make bonafide quality products and make them available from Elderly or other quality retailers.  Nothing wrong with a direct purchase, but this assures a purchaser that the bridge is accepted by a wide range of players and the retailer stands behind the product.

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I fully stand behind my products,

Being affiliated with some store has nothing to do with offering a good product or standing behind it 100%.

rudy - Posted - 07/29/2014:  01:05:10

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

quote:

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Originally posted by rudy

quote:

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Originally posted by Teresa Arch

hi danaher

i just went thru the bridge ordeal this weekend myself. according to my guy at the store, theyre all pretty much the same. some more expensive, some alot cheaper. he suggested i learn how to just play, before delving too deep into it. so thats my goal starting now !

Teresa

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That's actually pretty good baseline advice.

When you figure out that you need a better bridge you can check out a reliable retailer to see what bridges are considered reputable, that way you don't have to takie a chance on someone's home-brew efforts.

Many of the bridge makers that you see represented on the Hangout make bonafide quality products and make them available from Elderly or other quality retailers.  Nothing wrong with a direct purchase, but this assures a purchaser that the bridge is accepted by a wide range of players and the retailer stands behind the product.

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I fully stand behind my products,

Being affiliated with some store has nothing to do with offering a good product or standing behind it 100%.

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No, but a venerated retail establishment that chooses to put their reputation behind a product that they choose to carry is a good way for a neophyte player to feel more assured about a purchase.  A consumer is certainly free to roll the dice with their money.

steve davis - Posted - 07/29/2014:  03:55:19

I offer a free trial period for my products.Where's the rolling of your dice in that?