rudy - Posted - 07/19/2014:  16:08:54

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Originally posted by steve davis

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Originally posted by rudy

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Originally posted by banjoak

I think in the pursuit of understanding how things work, in most any pursuit, and then getting into more and more detail, (zoom in, put under microscope) - perhaps seeing the beauty of the math, physics, engineering, theoretical ideals of perfection... the more you learn, and get experience the more detail you want to work out. It is easy to get overly fascinated and then wrapped up in (if not obsess over) the minutia. I know I've been guilty of this. Not that it isn't interesting, but comes a point of how significant are these details? No doubt sometimes these things play a part - to a degree, but sometimes it's to just get that extra .05%. (and thinking your heightened sensitivity is important to listeners) In music you see it in intonation, tone, timing, music theory, to aspects like microphones and sound reinforcement... not to mention then playability, among others. Sometimes it helps to zoom out; ask what is the most important aspects in playing the music. (some folks might place musicianship, like tight rhythmic groove, expression over perfect intonation?)

One of the things about zooming in is that it often involves taking aspects out of the whole context; ignoring some aspects involved when in context. Especially a cognition aspect. Sure we might notice intonational and tonal things when played by itself, in a quiet small space, and notes lasting 1 second. But in real playing context things are often much different as far as cognition.

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Am curious though, when speaking of intonation of straight bridge, if anyone (with a strobe) has actually mapped out all the frequencies up to say the 12th fret, and how much they diverge from ET (as well as being able to see where problem intervals would occur?. What are we really talking about the most it will be out?

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Excellent post, banjoak.

Steve Davis has stated in previous posts that his compensated bridges vary by no more than 2 cents for any note on the fret board.

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I've always known there were a couple of notes that were nearly 4 cents out,so I don't know where you got the 2 cents reference.

I've never implied or stated that my bridge makes all fretted notes 0 ...it does however make more 0 fretted notes than any straight bridge.

Easier to see when carefully installed and measured.

Nice choice to have the notes like that.

I don't mind playing a straight bridge,either...I just choose not to.

It's great to hear these different perspectives on intonation.

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Steve, sorry to miss-quote you.  I'm working from memory, so I may have inadvertantly miss-remembered.

Since you've obviously mapped out the note values to be able to state the improvement with the compensated bridge would you mind sharing them?

steve davis - Posted - 07/20/2014:  04:28:43

I don't see my design as incorrect in any way,Bart.It has worked well on every banjo I've tried it on or sold to someone.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 07/20/2014:  04:55:45

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Originally posted by steve davis

I don't see my design as incorrect in any way,Bart.It has worked well on every banjo I've tried it on or sold to someone.

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I was talking about my stuff.

When a design is correct then there's no need having to detune the B string by 5 cents.

steve davis - Posted - 07/20/2014:  05:09:55

A design has to do with the final product,Bart.I didn't say 0 on all strings was the ultimate goal.

The final listening tells me guitars and banjos sound better with the b flattened.

It has something to do with good sounding tempering of the note.I know what I like to hear and don't analyze it beyond that.The ear is the final judge when it comes to music.

rudy - Posted - 07/20/2014:  06:05:39

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

A design has to do with the final product,Bart.I didn't say 0 on all strings was the ultimate goal.

The final listening tells me guitars and banjos sound better with the b flattened.

It has something to do with good sounding tempering of the note.I know what I like to hear and don't analyze it beyond that.The ear is the final judge when it comes to music. 

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Thank you, Steve.

Your last line finally brings the entire multi-page topics of bridge compensation back around to the root of the problem.

Your "something to do with good sounding tempering" is actually firmly grounded in Pythagoras's mathematical derivation of just intonation.  You've pointed out precisely why the entire process of producing a bridge to get "as many notes as possible" close to that 0 reading on an electronic tuner is basically in error.

I could parrot this every day for the next ten years and it wouldn't have the same effect as you explaining as you have above that a compensated bridge doesn't really work.  All of us straight bridge proponents have been "slightly flattening the b" as second nature.  Sweetening a bit after tuning to produce purer intervals in the key in which we are playing is what musicians have done for as long as there have been fretted instruments.

Bart Veerman explained why "universal compensation" doesn't work, but some folks will firmly resist simple fact until they have heard it directly from you for some reason.

Again, thanks!

Arthur Hatfield - Posted - 07/20/2014:  06:10:32

Why are you all talking about tuning the B string flat when you have to choke or bend the string to make it intonate right when its in perfect tune open. Tuning it flat only makes you have to bend it more. Needs to be tuned a little sharp to minimize the amount it needs to be bent. 

steve davis - Posted - 07/20/2014:  06:15:40

There is something compelling in certain flattened notes.

Emmylou and Joni Mitchell's singing are good examples.The first time I experienced this was in listening to my Grandmother's low alto in the church trio(her and two of her daughters singing) and how that made the shivers run up and down my spine.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/20/2014 06:18:44

Tim Purcell - Posted - 07/20/2014:  07:46:49

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Originally posted by Arthur Hatfield

Why are you all talking about tuning the B string flat when you have to choke or bend the string to make it intonate right when its in perfect tune open. Tuning it flat only makes you have to bend it more. Needs to be tuned a little sharp to minimize the amount it needs to be bent. 

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I see your point, Arthur. However, if I tune my B to "0" on the tuner and fret the B on the 3rd fret, I'm sharp. So I tune it just a cent flat so the 2-3 hammer on's are in tune with the 1st string. The problem with flattening the B is if you do a lot of chokes ( Sally Goodin' position) up the neck, it stretches the B and throws it off even flatter. I've had this problem with other banjos and not just mine. My nut string heights are correct as well as the neck relief and bridge placement.

Tim

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/20/2014:  07:56:06

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Originally posted by rudy

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

A design has to do with the final product,Bart.I didn't say 0 on all strings was the ultimate goal.

The final listening tells me guitars and banjos sound better with the b flattened.

It has something to do with good sounding tempering of the note.I know what I like to hear and don't analyze it beyond that.The ear is the final judge when it comes to music. 

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Thank you, Steve.

Your last line finally brings the entire multi-page topics of bridge compensation back around to the root of the problem.

Your "something to do with good sounding tempering" is actually firmly grounded in Pythagoras's mathematical derivation of just intonation.  You've pointed out precisely why the entire process of producing a bridge to get "as many notes as possible" close to that 0 reading on an electronic tuner is basically in error.

I could parrot this every day for the next ten years and it wouldn't have the same effect as you explaining as you have above that a compensated bridge doesn't really work.  All of us straight bridge proponents have been "slightly flattening the b" as second nature.  Sweetening a bit after tuning to produce purer intervals in the key in which we are playing is what musicians have done for as long as there have been fretted instruments.

Bart Veerman explained why "universal compensation" doesn't work, but some folks will firmly resist simple fact until they have heard it directly from you for some reason.

Again, thanks!

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And, as Steve wrote on May 10, 2008:

"This is why straight bridges work just fine,imo."

banjohangout.org/archive/116401

("How many cents can you hear?")

Arthur, I've always been happy with the sound I get from tuning my B by ear to make a nice minor third with the 1st-string D.  It's not sharping it, of course--but it's certainly not flatting it by any stretch of the imagination!

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 07/20/2014 08:13:44

rudy - Posted - 07/20/2014:  08:16:36

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Originally posted by Arthur Hatfield

Why are you all talking about tuning the B string flat when you have to choke or bend the string to make it intonate right when its in perfect tune open. Tuning it flat only makes you have to bend it more. Needs to be tuned a little sharp to minimize the amount it needs to be bent. 

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Hi Arthur,

When I added "slightly flattening the b" to my post it was to quote Steve's comment.  In actuality WHICH string and note is flattened is part of "sweetening" and is dependent upon the key and tuning that is used.  12TET temperament is 14 cents sharp for the third of the major triad, and that's the reference point for sweetening of pitches to be more in line with pure intervals as are related to just tuning or temperament.

I've related all of this in past topics so there's no sense in endlessly posting my slant on this.

My posting was really just to throw out a thanks to Steve for explaining that he doesn't just tune with an electronic tuner using one of his bridges and happily play away for the next 4 hours.  Thankfully his ears are being used to tell the rest of the story.

steve davis - Posted - 07/20/2014:  09:48:19

If anyone would like to bring their banjo to me I'll set it up as I've always described and you can see what you think about what I'm talking about.

I love sending my bridges to people for them to just try them out for a week and decide if there's anything to what I say.

Pretty basic stuff,really.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/20/2014:  10:13:29

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

A design has to do with the final product,Bart.I didn't say 0 on all strings was the ultimate goal.

The final listening tells me guitars and banjos sound better with the b flattened.

It has something to do with good sounding tempering of the note.I know what I like to hear and don't analyze it beyond that.The ear is the final judge when it comes to music.

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Zero on all the strings isn't the goal ? Pardon me but isn't about very banjo thread you are involved with infused with statements of "my bridge gets you closer to all zeros"? If zero isn't the goal, why the redundancy of this statement? It would be like saying catching a lobster in your newly designed trap wasn't the 'ultimate goal'.

Your second state to is the real world answer and one that goes beyond all these zero comments, which mean absolutely nothing to how tempered scale tuning operates. It has more than "something" to do with how to tune your banjo when you say " I know what I like to hear'..it means everything.

steve davis - Posted - 07/20/2014:  10:17:58

Close to all 0s isn't the same and I reserve the right to not necessarily know the exact words to put to my great ideas.

The final line is the end result.

The end result is a banjo that is very happy to not be retuned for hours at a time as in a full length gig.

That doesn't change no matter what words or opinions arise,John.I rate results way over words.

My total "goal" when I designed my bridge was to get all comparisons to be 0 on the 12th fret.

I did exactly that.All open notes,harmonics(same thing) and 12th fret fretted notes are 0 when my bridge is correctly placed on the banjo.

The only way to locate my bridge is to have those comparisons all reading 0 on a good tuner that reads "cents" like my korg dt-2.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/20/2014 10:31:09

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/20/2014:  10:42:51

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

Close to all 0s isn't the same and I reserve the right to not necessarily know the exact words to put to my great ideas.

The final line is the end result.

The end result is a banjo that is very happy to not be retuned for hours at a time as in a full length gig.

That doesn't change no matter what words or opinions arise,John.I rate results way over words

My total "goal" when I designed my bridge was to get all comparisons to be 0 on the 12th fret.

I did exactly that.All open notes,harmonics(same thing) and 12th fret fretted notes are 0 when my bridge is correctly placed on the banjo.

The only way to locate my bridge is to have those comparisons all reading 0 on a good tuner that

reads "cents" like my korg dt-2.

 

 

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But aren't 'words', your words, what we use to figure out what you are saying here? Either zeros are the goal or they aren't. You have just said that "0" on your long is your goal.  Now you say it isn't, then you say it is. You then say the ear is the  real determining factor, then zeros on your tuner. 

And btw, your banjo staying in tune while playing for "hours' has nothing to do with a bridge in the context of a banjo "staying in tune" . You seem to want to weave intonation in with normal 'tuning'. They are not the same thing..do you agree?

pipefitter61 - Posted - 07/20/2014:  10:54:28

I don't post here much anymore. But I read a lot. I felt compelled to contribute this one post. (and I DO mean ONE!) I will relate my opinion as eloquently as possible, and I won't respond to any sniping or smart@$$ comebacks either:

I'm not a road picker anymore, but an experience that I had years ago while playing for Bill Grant/Delhia Bell comes to my mind every time I read one of these threads about whose bridge makes a banjo play in tune for XXX number of hours, or my G string frets flat at the 5th when it's in tune open etc. or all these other wild ideas about why this, or that.

I once asked Bill Grant if he had a tuner I could borrow. His response was short, direct, and to the point. "go over there and have the bass player play you a "g" note. Tune your banjo from there. That's what we all do." Now I could have taken that several different ways. I could have thought "what an ass!" or "maybe he doesn't care if we're all in tune!" Instead, I took it to mean learn how to TUNE my instrument without the crutch of a tuner. I learned to use my ears, and my heart. Not some piece of electronic equipment. The fact that I spent several years playing for him when the occasion arose should be enough encouragement to tell me that I at least got that part right. (Bill was not one for gilding the Lily, so to speak)

My own experience with banjos is such that I have found few, if any that will remain in harmony throughout more than 1 or 2 key changes. After that, you without a doubt will be adjusting one of 2 things. The tuning of the instrument, or your playing style. This is NOT debateable with me, so go there, only if you want to look stupid.

As far as bridges go. I have quite the collection of them. Going back several decades. I have good ones, danged good ones, and really, really good ones. I also have some real poor examples. Some are straight, some are compensated. Ya can't win them all.

I once was approached by a bridge builder here on BHO, and asked if I would like to try one of their bridges. I said I would. There was NEVER any mention of money, only my trying it. The bridge arrived, and I was immediately assaulted with endless emails asking if I would be keeping it, and if so, I owed $XXXX..
(I didn't even have time to put it on the banjo) I sent it back. I within a week received ANOTHER one that was supposed to be lighter, and do da, do da.... Again the endless emails wanting payment. I just paid for it, and never said another word. This bridge is STILL on my entertainment system shelf, and has never been on a banjo, nor will it EVER be.

Bottom line: You will never MAKE a banjo do ANYTHING it does not want to do, no matter what kind of exotic crap you put on it, or in it. It is what it is. But if you're so fixated on a &^$#%@ tuner, you'll never actually hear if you've really got it right. I actually like playing with other people who sound "tight" as a whole unit. An entire symphony out of tune with each other, is much more pleasant to listen to, than one with a single violin out with all the others!
Hard to believe, but it's NOT all about the banjo! There is no "I" in band, or any of the other cliché's you may have heard. It's all true!

Use a tuner if you must, but try to wean yourself off of them as soon as you're able. You'll be much happier. Get in tune with those you're picking with. If you're picking alone, Does it really matter?

steve davis - Posted - 07/20/2014:  11:22:18

By setting the lengths to fret at 12 with 0s it turns out there are benefits on the other fretted notes.One of those benefits is not needing to retune when capoing.

Another benefit is a sweetness of tone in more in tune notes in any chors compared to a straight bridge.

I wondered why that was and after checking the proximity to zero of the fretted notes came away seeing an importance of those fretted notes being nearer 0 on the tuner.

Them being nearer zero on the tuner is a benefit of 12th fret "agreement" of open and fretted notes.

As The Duke so eloquently put it,"If it sounds good it is good."

My schoolteachers didn't much like my words either when they flunked some of my English tests.

If you would simply try a banjo that I set up then you would understand,John.The harmonic affect of the more in tune strings is quite impressive and obvious.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/20/2014 11:37:40

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/20/2014:  11:50:45

"I reserve the right to not necessarily know the exact words to put to my great ideas."

Me too. 

Wish I'd thought of that one before.  :->

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/20/2014:  12:32:48

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

By setting the lengths to fret at 12 with 0s it turns out there are benefits on the other fretted notes.One of those benefits is not needing to retune when capoing.

Another benefit is a sweetness of tone in more in tune notes in any chors compared to a straight bridge.

I wondered why that was and after checking the proximity to zero of the fretted notes came away seeing an importance of those fretted notes being nearer 0 on the tuner.

Them being nearer zero on the tuner is a benefit of 12th fret "agreement" of open and fretted notes

As The Duke so eloquently put it,"If it sounds good it is good."

My schoolteachers didn't much like my words either when they flunked some of my English tests.

If you would simply try a banjo that I set up then you would understand,John.The harmonic affect of the more in tune strings is quite impressive and obvious.

 

 

 

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Steve

I have seen and set up banjos probably in every configuration that falls within playability parameters. It is part of what I do for a living and have for over 30 years. "Your" set up, as I have read your description, falls within that range of  set up specs that all set up guys see. 

Please ship me a banjo you have set up and I will evaluate this "harmonic" affect that only your set up achieves. You can also send me a bridge to evaluate if you like. I'm as open minded as anyone but common sense is common sense. 

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/20/2014:  12:33:32

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Drabek

"I reserve the right to not necessarily know the exact words to put to my great ideas."

 

Me too. 

Wish I'd thought of that one before.  :->

 

I thought that was a great line too Dan....

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 07/20/2014:  13:03:52

Reminds me of a scene from the movie "Wagons East" Where all the prostitues and the new bridge (whoops meant new bride, but I'll let it go like that?) are setting around the campfire and the "new bride" is bragging on her love life, and how great her man is in the sack..". He says he"s great and its a giant, almost 4 inches long"... holding her hands apart... And all the old hands are rolling their eyes and giving each other the look in amusement..

Same thing is happening on these threads... It is funny, but its all the experience and knowledge they have..

richard baskowski - Posted - 07/20/2014:  13:36:39

getting back to the post. the banjo as we know has so many variables. let's assume the one you play has been correctly made, and set up. Now put it in a human's hands. that changes everything!To err is human.A banjo is just so easy to sound bad if not played well. If you do not practice for one day, you are off. getting to know the fretboard and action and x and w. and all the little things takes years of practice and repetition.each instrument is different so will the touch be so.playing consistently and regularly will allow you to get to know your "friend" a lot better. slouch and you playing will show it.I think that has a lot to do with intonation as much as the science behind it. Knowing how glaring one wrong note sounds on a banjo we strive for perfection.None of this is easy, I don,t care what bridge or anything else you decide to put on there. personally I am going for tone, not just the bridge but in the manner in which is played. perfection is not something we mortals are good at, we must work at it. It is possible,with talent and hard work, listening observing, and practice! In closing her is part of A.A. Farlands guide to practice from his National school for the banjo from 1890 ( this is not a new concept),(If a mistake is made do not pass on,but recommence the passage, and continue doing so until it can be played correctly throughout. Bear in mind that no piece or passage is played correctly until no wrong finger is used,not a wrong string is struck, not a finger up when it ought to be down, the hands held in proper position, every note played clearly and distinctly,and the passage played in proportion throughout.No piece should be considered sufficiently practiced which cannot be played eight of ten times in succession without an error, and even when this can be accomplished, more practice is necessary in order to AcQUIRE MORE FINISH IN THE MANNER OF EXECUTING IT.  In a word- Practice Unt'l Perfect.)I agree with the OP, go for the tone, not for the gadgets.     Tonally yours rick

country frank - Posted - 07/20/2014:  13:44:20

Jeez, no need for a compensated bridge.

the more you play the thing the better you become at tuning it, compensating (whilst playing), and choking the thing into tune mid note.

My 2c.

lazyarcher - Posted - 07/20/2014:  13:46:39

I just went over the bridge placement on my '33 Gibson 4. It has an Arthur Hatfield neck..possibly THE most accurate neck I've ever played.

Using gStrings tuning app..which is as sensitive and accurate as any tuner out there..my straight Scott Zimmerman Z bridge is placed perfectly to match 12th fret harmonics. All the notes..open, fretted..are within 0.1 anywhere.

If I was to put on a bridge as radically compensated as Steves, the intonation would be off. I know because I've made and tried comp bridges on it far less radical than Steves.

Comp bridges like Steves and Arthurs can do wonders for banjos that need them...but some DON'T!!!!

There is no magic pill to all of this.

If you want to sound good and in tune, set up your banjo and learn to play it...learn to play it.

steve davis - Posted - 07/20/2014:  14:00:05

I suppose it could be that the fretted notes that aren't quite 0 are contributing to good tempering,but that's purely a guess on my part.

It needn't be if I were to look up the table on tempering and corrolate it to my "errant" notes.

I'm kinda like Pa Kettle on some stuff and "oughta borry a nail and fix that roof one of these days".

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/20/2014:  19:55:32

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

I suppose it could be that the fretted notes that aren't quite 0 are contributing to good tempering,but that's purely a guess on my part.

It needn't be if I were to look up the table on tempering and corrolate it to my "errant" notes.

I'm kinda like Pa Kettle on some stuff and "oughta borry a nail and fix that roof one of these days".

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Umm, yes notes being 'aren't' quite zero' are part of the tempered system. On the last statements...what are you talking about ?o

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/20/2014:  21:48:07

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

I'm kinda like Pa Kettle on some stuff and "oughta borry a nail and fix that roof one of these days".

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Well, I guess if I kinda squint, you sorta look like Percy Kilbride . . .

As they say down in the Ozarks, "When it don't rain, the roof don't leak; when it's rainin', can't fix it nohow."

Yanni - Posted - 07/20/2014:  23:26:41

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

By setting the lengths to fret at 12 with 0s it turns out there are benefits on the other fretted notes.One of those benefits is not needing to retune when capoing.

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I really do try to stay out of these 'debates' but I have to bite on this one.  How can trying to ensure 0's at the 12th mean you don't have to retune when capoing?  There is so much else going on.  The tension of the capo, the deflection of the head by the bridge (different for each string), the age of the strings etc.  I can't think of any stringed instrument I have played that didn't need some kind of tweak (no matter how small) when a capo is placed.  Maybe your words did not state what you meant but I cannot imagine that a banjo would not need some retune after a capo is placed.

Ian

Roll Player - Posted - 07/20/2014:  23:54:34

Maybe the capo used is a factor, but my experience playing a one hour gig Friday was that I didn't have to retune after capo-ing or de-capo-ing using one of Steve's bridges on my RK80, except for a little 5th string tweaking.

Of course, your mileage may vary. I know what works for me though.

WRT Electronic tuners, they are just tools -- everything must be checked against your ear. Having said that, some people don't have good ears. I remember how much better, tuning-wise, jams got after electronic tuners became commonplace.

steve davis - Posted - 07/21/2014:  05:12:04

quote:

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Originally posted by Yanni

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

By setting the lengths to fret at 12 with 0s it turns out there are benefits on the other fretted notes.One of those benefits is not needing to retune when capoing.

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I really do try to stay out of these 'debates' but I have to bite on this one.  How can trying to ensure 0's at the 12th mean you don't have to retune when capoing?  There is so much else going on.  The tension of the capo, the deflection of the head by the bridge (different for each string), the age of the strings etc.  I can't think of any stringed instrument I have played that didn't need some kind of tweak (no matter how small) when a capo is placed.  Maybe your words did not state what you meant but I cannot imagine that a banjo would not need some retune after a capo is placed.

Ian

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I don't know why,Ian.

I simply designed a bridge that is in "agreement" at the 12th fret and not needing to capo just happened.

I wondered what the benefits might be and just built the thing.It also has to do with the rest of the set up.

If you have .025 clearance between 1st fret and strings nothing will keep that banjo from going sharp when you put on a capo.

Simply making the open and 12th fret notes show 0 on the tuner is a very good setting for making the fretted notes all over the 22 frets and 5 strings be more in tune.

I don't wonder why when I have excellent results and can duplicate those results at will.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/21/2014:  05:27:10

I have always placed my capo(Paige) directly on the fret, not behind it. It solves most all  tuning deflection issues unless eithe the capo sleeve is shot or your frets are. In regards to the action number of .025 being a threshold for intonation errors, I haven't found that to be an issue. For aggressive Scruggs style up the neck, many players have actions at and above those numbers and it doesn't impact tuning negatively. My action is .024 currently and has been higher and slightly lower.

A set up matching the banjos characteristics and the players  technique are more important than static numbers, overall I have found. Of course if where you have your  action set works for you, that's where it needs to be. But in regards to intonation, one can't assume the numbers are telling the whole story.

JoeDownes - Posted - 07/21/2014:  05:30:17

quote:

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Originally posted by Bart Veerman

Joe: measure the required intonation offsets on a bunch of different banjos and you'll soon find out there's no such thing as "generally speaking" when it comes to banjos. What's "perfect" for one banjo more often than not is quite "unperfect" for another. If you don't take the few minutes to do the measuring and come up with factual numbers then despite the many wonderful theories, guess work is where it's at.

 

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Stiffer strings need to be longer to intonate correctly. It's a well known fact. Generally speaking banjo strings are of varying stiffness. So a generic compensated bridge will take care of the problem that arises from the different stiffness of the strings. At least it will be better than a straight bridge. There might be other issues with intonation that have to be dealt with, but the intonation problem that is caused by the different stiffness of the strings is what a compensated bridge is meant to address.

steve davis - Posted - 07/21/2014:  05:30:26

I was going to offer Ian a bridge to try out,but that can be an expensive trial run across "The Pond".

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/21/2014:  06:52:11

As said before, I will be glad to experiment with your bridge Steve. There are a bunch of banjos i can install it on, including my own. Let me know and we can proceed from there. I will be glad to report how it functions on the banjos, intonation and tone wise.

steve davis - Posted - 07/21/2014:  08:09:19

That would be a bit like sending a Corvette to a Mustang club to be evaluated,John.

I don't need to see the results of your tests on it as I already have all that information.

You are however welcome to try out one of my bridges to do with as you please...just like anybody else you will have your opinion which won't have any affect on how the bridge performs as it already does.

Just send me your address.

Please remember that there is only one correct placement of the Davis bridge.

That is when the open notes are tuned to 0 on a tuner and they fret at 0 on the 12th fret.

Every time you move the bridge to 0 the fretted 12s you must retune the open strings to 0.

Best intonation results will be with .015 or less 1st fret to string clearance

Neck relief at .015 at 7 and 1/8" action at 22,but fine results are still available outside of the specs I've provided.

The big "killer" of intonation attempts is the 1st fret to string clearance being too great and of course a nut face that is other than parallel/distance to first fret.

I don't expect rave reviews from you,John,but try and stay with just the facts and an unbiased point of view(as much as possible).

I'll be able to replicate any situation you may come up with to answer any questions.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/21/2014 08:20:05

Bart Veerman - Posted - 07/21/2014:  08:33:31

I don't want to get too far off topic Joe, I'm not here to advertise and peddle my stuff so I'll leave it at recommending you to do the measurements.

Group hug, I'm done with this thread.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 07/21/2014:  08:37:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

As said before, I will be glad to experiment with your bridge Steve. There are a bunch of banjos i can install it on, including my own. Let me know and we can proceed from there. I will be glad to report how it functions on the banjos, intonation and tone wise.

---

Okay, I give.  The engineer part of me can't resist the challenge of what is called in my business "an A-B test".

I invested in the InsTuner application for my iPad Air and proceeded to test it in my shop using a digital frequency synthesizer, frequency counter, and oscilloscope.  The app performs as advertised, accurate to a tenth (0.1) of a cent.

Steve, I'll try one of your roasted bridges and compare it, fret by fret, with the (straight) roasted Sullivan.  You state that you do not need the results, but I will share them here.

If your bridge performs as you say, I'll pay for it by PayPal; if not, I'll return it at my expense or (as I think you have suggested before) give it to another player--your choice on that. 

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 07/21/2014 08:39:27

steve davis - Posted - 07/21/2014:  08:51:00

That's a fair offer,Russ.

Keep in mind that I state that my bridge will have a higher amount of notes nearer 0(many right on 0) over all the fretted notes than a straight bridge.

I am not saying all the fretted notes will be 0,but that they are improved.The 1st fret string clearance is a very important aspect.

I await your emailed address and thank you.This place is all about the sharing of information and of course I want your findings,Russ.

My customers have their findings too and I rely on their input.

Listening to them has made my product better over time.There are great rewards to keeping an open mind.

Please talk to me when you get it so we can be sure how you are locating it on the head.Thanks.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/21/2014 08:54:26

steve davis - Posted - 07/21/2014:  08:56:38

Now all we have to do is get Art's 5th string resting on the 5th fret and maybe some "gentler" spikes.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 07/21/2014:  09:07:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

That would be a bit like sending a Corvette to a Mustang club to be evaluated,John.

 

---

Steve,

I totally disagree with that statement. John is professional.

ken

Roll Player - Posted - 07/21/2014:  09:36:28

The spikes perform as I need them to, Steve. I'm not sure that "gentler" spikes would be buzz-free when I'm picking hard. The string does rest on the fret.

The main capo that I use is a Victor banjo capo (no longer made) with a Shubb rubber sleeve replacing the original rubber pad that wore out. It's adjustable and doesn't squeeze the strings sharp the way I use it. The only sharpness I get (and that Steve's bridge fixes) is the kind Joe Downes talks about above from the stiffer 3rd string.

That's on my RKs. The Scruggs is OK with a straight bridge. As I said above, YMMV.

steve davis - Posted - 07/21/2014:  09:40:38

As far as John evaluating my bridge,he has agreed with very little if anything I've ever said about it and would be very happy to prove to the world that my design is faulty or some kind of unsubstantiated dream.

Hardly an unbiased look by someone merely curious.

There is an agenda here,imo.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/21/2014:  09:52:20

Really, you think I would invest time in evaluating something just to prove I don't like it? Sorry but my time is more valuable than that and I am open minded. I have disagreed with many claims you make about your bridge , but never about it's quality or ability to compensate some banjos.  But you can accept my offer or not..your call. You can be sure I wouldn't  do anything but give an honest evaluation.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/21/2014:  09:56:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

That would be a bit like sending a Corvette to a Mustang club to be evaluated,John.

I don't need to see the results of your tests on it as I already have all that information.

You are however welcome to try out one of my bridges to do with as you please...just like anybody else you will have your opinion which won't have any affect on how the bridge performs as it already does.

Just send me your address.

Please remember that there is only one correct placement of the Davis bridge.

That is when the open notes are tuned to 0 on a tuner and they fret at 0 on the 12th fret.

Every time you move the bridge to 0 the fretted 12s you must retune the open strings to 0.

Best intonation results will be with .015 or less 1st fret to string clearance

Neck relief at .015 at 7 and 1/8" action at 22,but fine results are still available outside of the specs I've provided.

The big "killer" of intonation attempts is the 1st fret to string clearance being too great and of course a nut face that is other than parallel/distance to first fret.

I don't expect rave reviews from you,John,but try and stay with just the facts and an unbiased point of view(as much as possible).

I'll be able to replicate any situation you may come up with to answer any questions.

 

---

I won't alter customers set ups to suit yours, or my own, but will make an honest comparison to intonation and tone changes between your bridge and straight. Most set ups a within "normal" ranges that I see in the shop, so the won't be any monstrously high ones or low. 

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/21/2014:  10:11:01

Back from San Diego and seeing the David Lindley concert at the Museum of Making Music. David, for the first time in his career, did an all banjo...or banjo-like instruments...show. It was fantastic. Eli (Turner) will hopefully post a review.

Also, Eli has an alternative now to RR spikes or a sliding capo. It's based on the "Pin Point" capos used by Swedish cittern player Ale Moler and involves putting tiny HeliCoils into the fingerboard and using an equally tiny cap screw to hold the string down when needed. It's unobtrusive, there are no RR spike heads in the way. It works. He put a couple of them into his Rickard/Turner Dobson and it's fantastic.

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/21/2014:  10:14:14

And...it should be noted that weight is not the only characteristic of wood that counts. Tensile strength, specific stiffness (which is different from tensile strength), density, and resonant Q (and it's opposite, damping characteristic) all count, too, when it comes to volume and tone. As a "for instance", you could add weight to a bridge with a small lump of lead. It would not sound the same as an all-rosewood bridge of the same weight.

Yanni - Posted - 07/21/2014:  10:22:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I was going to offer Ian a bridge to try out,but that can be an expensive trial run across "The Pond".

---

Thanks for the thought Steve anyhow :)

Ian

JSLONE - Posted - 07/21/2014:  12:13:38

I would like to chime in here.First I would like to say that I am not a professional at anything,so I need help sometimes on my banjo set up. I have had a lot of help from 3 men here on the hangout a few times and must say that one on one they all know what they are talking about when giving advice on my problems. John Boulding influenced me when he posted reviews on the RK-36,so I bought one.It was in terrible shape,set up wise.So I emailed John on how his was set-up,and he sent me every detail to his RK 36 set up and even sent me his phone number in case I needed help.My 36 still sounds and plays great!
Tim Purcell has helped me many,many times.We have emailed back and forth so much I consider him a good friend and have never met him in person.I ordered a couple bridges from Steve Davis back in January
and could never get the one on my RB-250 to sound right.I emailed Steve and told him I was having problems with the intonation part.The bridge sounded great,but I couldn't get all 5 strings to intonate properly at the 12 fret no matter how I set it.Steve and I were emaling back and forth for a couple hours trying to solve the problem.Finally I told him that I thought I was just too use to a straight bridge,and he offered to make me a straight bridge and give my money back on the other. After reading all of these posts on set up I figure the reason a comp. bridge don't work well on my banjo is because my action is quite high,especially at the first fret,but that is how I like it. My self,I would rather use a bridge that blends with my set up.rather than change ''my'' set up for a bridge.Just my thoughts,not to offend anyone.Thanks to everyone on hangout who are willing to give help when needed....Jim

Lew H - Posted - 07/21/2014:  12:24:55

Now I'm puzzled!

From Banjoak: 'Bridge compensation isn't about open G tuning (or the key of G to be better tuned) , rather to compensate for the differences involved with different thickness of strings. Generally, the thickier the string, the longer it need to be; and wrapped strings need a different length than solid strings. It's why, guitars and mandos are often compensated."

From Rudy, on flattening the B string: "Your "something to do with good sounding tempering" is actually firmly grounded in Pythagoras's mathematical derivation of just intonation. You've pointed out precisely why the entire process of producing a bridge to get "as many notes as possible" close to that 0 reading on an electronic tuner is basically in error."

And Rudy, again: "When I added "slightly flattening the b" to my post it was to quote Steve's comment. In actuality WHICH string and note is flattened is part of "sweetening" and is dependent upon the key and tuning that is used. 12TET temperament is 14 cents sharp for the third of the major triad, and that's the reference point for sweetening of pitches to be more in line with pure intervals as are related to just tuning or temperament."

In my previous post I said I'd no longer be concerned about compensated bridges because I use several different tunings. Now I'm just curious. Is compensation about tempering the B string, about different string thicknesses (stiffnesses), or both? There are two claims in play in this forum. If part of compensation is about the open B note needing tempering (but doing so by "touching up" that string with it tuner makes other notes fretted on that string go off tune), then what is needed with bridge compensation or "touching up" when that string is raised to a C, as in sawmill tuning, or dropped to A, for the bluegrass D tuning? If it's only the open untempered B that is off, wouldn't other tunings with a different open note on the second string have correct intonation down the fretboard, except when a 2nd string B is fretted? It strikes me that maybe a compensated bridge is useful to compensate for string thickness, but also aims to correct the open B note in open G tuning.

JoeDownes - Posted - 07/21/2014:  12:34:37

An instrument with straight frets, like a banjo, is made for ET (Equal temperament). The third of ET (like B in a G chord) is a bit sharp, when compared to the third that's part of the harmonic series (5:4). Some folks 'compensate' for this by tuning the B string slightly flat when playing in the key of G.

This has nothing to do with compensated bridges. They are indeed meant to compensate for the intonation issues that are caused by the varying stiffness of the strings.

I sometimes think that tuning the B string flat works partly because the intonation on the first few frets of the B string might be a bit sharp. IIRC Stelling used compensated nuts (like many guitar luthiers) to compensate for the slightly sharp intonation on the first few frets.