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curlyjim - Posted - 05/09/2008: 21:52:35
Just in case you were wondering about this....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_%28music%29
Skip the math and go to the sound files at the bottom. I can't hear even the 10 Cent interval when the notes are played separately, but can hear a slight wavering in the 6 Cent interval when the notes are played together.
Must be why tuning strings by listening for 'beats' works better than trying to match pitch.
Curlyjim
Wes Lassiter - Posted - 05/10/2008: 05:03:54
Listen a little closer
Banjo Wes
All things excellent are difficult as they are rare.
Spinoza
JohnGP - Posted - 05/10/2008: 07:35:32
I subscribe to the view that if it doesn't sound out of tune then it's in tune 
John
Actually - it does get better if you pick it.
JohnTheWhite - Posted - 05/10/2008: 07:58:20
Especially tuning the second string to B.
Yosh - Posted - 05/10/2008: 11:26:13
I couldn't even tell the 10 cent difference. There is a 100 cents in a 1/2 step interval, is that correct? Or is it 100 cents in a whole step? - Yosh
________________________________________________________________________
A clever person can get himself out of a situation that a wise person would never get into.
________________________________________________________________________
JohnGP - Posted - 05/10/2008: 11:45:34
quote:
Originally posted by Yosh
I couldn't even tell the 10 cent difference. There is a 100 cents in a 1/2 step interval, is that correct? Or is it 100 cents in a whole step? - Yosh
________________________________________________________________________
A clever person can get himself out of a situation that a wise person would never get into.
________________________________________________________________________
!00 cents to a whole step Yosh.
John
Actually - it does get better if you pick it.
ZEPP - Posted - 05/10/2008: 13:53:11
Um, no. 100 cents is a half tone (1 fret). There are 1200 cents in an octave.
Cheers,
ZEPP
JohnGP - Posted - 05/10/2008: 13:58:53
quote:
Originally posted by ZEPP
Um, no. 100 cents is a half tone (1 fret). There are 1200 cents in an octave.
Cheers,
ZEPP
You are absolutely right Zepp, senior moment there. I'd go outside and shoot meself but I'd probably miss
John
Actually - it does get better if you pick it.
steve davis - Posted - 05/10/2008: 21:05:50
This is why straight bridges work just fine,imo.
boats,billiards and banjos
Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/22/2008: 15:35:39
quote:
Originally posted by curlyjim
Just in case you were wondering about this....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_%28music%29
Skip the math and go to the sound files at the bottom. I can't hear even the 10 Cent interval when the notes are played separately, but can hear a slight wavering in the 6 Cent interval when the notes are played together.
Must be why tuning strings by listening for 'beats' works better than trying to match pitch.
Curlyjim
Why skip the math? The Greeks loved the math - they just hated irrational numbers, prefering ratios. God bless 'em. They also translated a lot Hebrew and knew about the shadows on the cave.
Happy pickin'',
Tom
http://www.tomhanway.com
Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/22/2008: 15:41:46
The twelfth root of two, dividing up the octave into twelve intervals (semitones) is hard enough to hear and tune to - I think it's unnatural, so I use a tuner. I did not hear the one cent differential. I experienced the six cent differential when both tones were played together, and the ten cent differential I heard when each tone was played, and then I experienced the out-of-tuneness even more when both notes were played simultaneously. The math goes beyond what the ear can discern. Maybe the Greeks wanted to keep it simple for good reason.
GREAT spot.
Happy pickin',
Tom
http://www.tomhanway.com
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 05/22/2008 15:44:28
banjo_brad - Posted - 05/22/2008: 19:00:30
Just for fun, here's a post I pulled off of the Fiddle-L this morning about pitches:
For all you math/computer binary folks there was a standard known as the
Philosophical standard:
A=430Hz is the equivalent of C=256Hz. 256 is 2 raised to the power of 8 -
i.e. C 256 is 8 octaves above C1 - an inaudible note whose frequency would
be 1 cycle per second. The second is a whole number subdivision of the day
(60 x 60 x 24 = 86400), music at that pitch is seen as being in tune with
the rotation of the earth.
And...
The initial international standard was A = 439 Hz, but this was superseded
by A = 440 Hz after complaints that 439 Hz was difficult to reproduce in a
laboratory owing to 439 being a prime number.
Helmholtz documented lots of historic tuning standards of organs and forks
in his book, they varied widely. Most fell into 2 categories, low standard
and high standard. Most organs were below 432, but the same organ might be
varied over time. The end of the pipe could be hammered to raise or lower a
pitch, but over time the end becomes jagged and would be trimmed down,
raising the pitch. This would cause a need for the overall pitch of the
organ to be raised. The need to standardize pitch rose as performance of
music which combined the organ (and other keyboard instruments) with
instrumental ensembles became more popular. Originally it was at the low end
because the makeup of the E string at the time could not take the higher
tension with out snapping.
Military bands were a leading cause for high pitch, 439-460. That eventually
worked it's way into the orchestra, but by that time new E strings could
handle the extra tension.
They were talking about "standard pitch" and E string sounds.
Brad
------------------
www.PricklyPearMusic.net
http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/5/ My ezFolk page
http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/3371/ Tucson Old Time Music Circle page on ezFolk
http://www.totmc.org Tucson Old Time Music Circle Homepage
skywise - Posted - 05/24/2008: 16:21:11
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
Q. How do you tune a banjo?
A. Nobody knows.
Reminds me of a bumper sticker I picked up from this great band, Whiskey Puppy, out of Portland, OR - it reads "It Takes A Village To Tune A Banjo."
jkb52088 - Posted - 05/28/2008: 11:47:08
That was neat actually heard the one cent difference when played together. For some reason I can hear the off pitch together but I always have trouble hearing when separately played I guess I for the sound of the pitch. What ever I can totally hear the one cent but I would still play with it hardly anyone knows anyways once the band is put together.
microtone - Posted - 05/29/2008: 06:10:08
I think the limit for hearing for most people is actually around 6-7cents if I remember correctly; cents are just very small basically !
A lot depends on context – as you say you can hear a waver (beating) when played together – using such a technique piano tuners can detect way less then a cent – if a note is out of tune in a fast moving piece of music it really in most cases need to be a good many cents out to notice
Stringed instruments with frets like guitar banjo etc really don’t play anywhere what there supposed to mathematically – finger pressure, string stretch etc all effect pitch
Even if this wasn’t the case our 12 fret per octave system isn’t quite 100% in tune with the notes we were originally aiming for – if you mess with harmonics on strings you can see the octave frets spot on and the fifth is fine (technically 2 cents from perfect and often further due to the physics of finger pressure and so on) but (best example is the major 3rd harmonic is around 15cents out and notably flatter then a fretted 3rd
Ok so there’s the maths - were out of tune whatever way you look at it – at least mathematically – In the real world things are different and fractional deviation adds tone and color to music – if you tuned a keyboards notes all out – some up and some down by some small amount say 5 cents - you will probably find that it sounds fine (in tune) but there is a different texture – the beating you get with mistuned notes if small adds energy to sound
Technically most instruments are not in tune with each other either due to there differing ways of producing sound – if they were a band could sound a little flat but again if the mistuning is not too great it adds a liveness to sound
The other point is going back to our out of tune 3rd is that we have culturally accepted it to the point where a ‘genuine’ 3rd could sound flat
royal173 - Posted - 05/29/2008: 06:42:52
That was neat, for two cents I'll give you my opinion.
JimD - Posted - 06/02/2008: 19:25:25
Try this one:
http://tonometric.com/adaptivepitch/
It tests how well you can discriminate between pitches and will make the pitches get closer and closer depending how well you do.
I can discriminate between pitches 0.45 hz apart. (the test was in the 500hz range)
Full disclosure: I teach ear training at a conservatory. These skills usually improve with practice.
Jim Dalton
microtone - Posted - 07/24/2008: 01:49:34
paragraph from course notes at Ohio State's intriguingly titled Music 829B - Consonance and Dissonance, which must be a blast of a class:
There are four main reasons why modern scholars have lost interest in the question of what is the best tuning system. First, in the 1930s, Carl Seashore measured the pitch accuracy of real performers and showed that singers and violinists are remarkably inaccurate. For non-fixed-pitch instruments, the pitch accuracy is on the order of 25 cents. Yet Western listeners (and musicians) are not noticeable disturbed by the pitch intonation of professional performers. Secondly, on average, professional piano tuners fail to tune notes more accurately than about 8 cents. This means that even if performers could perform very accurately, they would find it difficult to find suitable instruments. Thirdly, listeners seemingly adapt to whatever system they have been exposed to. Most Western listeners find just intonation "weird" sounding rather than "better". Moreover, professional musicians appear to prefer equally tempered intervals to their just counterparts. See the results of Vos (1986). Finally, the perception of pitch has been shown to be categorical in nature. In vision, many shades of red will be perceived as "red". Similarly, listeners tend to mentally "re-code" mis-tuned pitches so they are experienced as falling in the correct category. Mis-tuning must be remarkably large (>50 cents) before they draw much attention. This insensitivity is especially marked for short duration sounds -- which tend to dominant music-making.
steve davis - Posted - 07/24/2008: 06:05:48
When I got into making my own intonated bridges in the late 70s I soon realized that straight bridges worked just fine,but there was a different feeling to the way the chords sounded between the two styles of bridges.
There is a balance of tones in all the chords on the neck when using a properly intonated bridge that isn't available in a straight cut bridge.It isn't so much hearing the sharpness or flatness of one string to another as it is feeling a balance and fullness of the whole chord.My playing is very chord oriented.
concerning gardens...weed ''em and reap
Tom Hanway - Posted - 07/24/2008: 07:40:21
quote:
Originally posted by skywise
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
Q. How do you tune a banjo?
A. Nobody knows.
Reminds me of a bumper sticker I picked up from this great band, Whiskey Puppy, out of Portland, OR - it reads "It Takes A Village To Tune A Banjo."
That's very optimistic, or maybe a leap of faith!
It could take a whole island-nation, but that's an impossibility where I live!
Happy pickin,
Tom
http://www.tomhanway.com
Banjophobic - Posted - 07/24/2008: 08:43:19
[quote]Originally posted by JimD
Try this one:
http://tonometric.com/adaptivepitch/
It tests how well you can discriminate between pitches and will make the pitches get closer and closer depending how well you do.
I can discriminate between pitches 0.45 hz apart. (the test was in the 500hz range)
Full disclosure: I teach ear training at a conservatory. These skills usually improve with practice.
Jim Dalton
That was a very cool test Jim. I took it twice, on all 4 tests. My first average per test was about 60-70%. I then repaeated it and it went up to about 70-80%. The third time I tried it was still at about 70-80% for a 4. The rythum test was the hardest, I thought.
I also did the tone range test from another link. My perception range was in the 2 average. I bet if one ttook that test in different times of the day the test would change as our hearing changes based on physiological changes in our inner ear. Fun stuff!
