Winged Words - Posted - 07/17/2014:  22:13:30

Ps
When I say my Ramsey always sounds good to me, I'm using the word good in a somewhat loose fashion. What I mean is something along the lines of "it always sounds better than I can play it." Novices with expensive banjos everywhere will know what I mean.

Best wishes to all

Geoff

Rick Turner - Posted - 07/17/2014:  22:27:06

Thanks, Winged...

Off to bed, have to be up at 4:30 AM for a drive to LA. But then to San Diego to pick up Banjo Boy Elias and go see old pal, David Lindley (Uncle David, to Eli) at the Museum of Making Music in Carlsbad on Saturday night...as part of the banjo exhibit there that I helped to instigate and curate. It is said that David will play...banjo. He'd better!

Winged Words - Posted - 07/17/2014:  22:56:16

Just a casual drive down the West coast... I'd save up for a year to do that. San Diego the quad kite capital of the world.

Sorry - get back to the topic chaps.

Edited by - Winged Words on 07/17/2014 22:58:42

Winged Words - Posted - 07/18/2014:  04:05:58

I think my point was that on this forum I feel like Penny among a bunch of Sheldons. How I love to hear y'all jibber jabber...

steve davis - Posted - 07/18/2014:  04:13:19

Perspective is an individual thing.

We all have our own perspective on life and what we've learned living it.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/18/2014 04:14:12

steve davis - Posted - 07/18/2014:  04:16:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

Thanks Rick, and no I am no 'anti-compensated bridges' at all. It is just the level of 'need' all of a sudden is bewildering to me, from a professional standpoint. 

---

I see it as a level of chouce.

I've never said anyone needs a comper,but I do say when you try one you might very well like it.

Any banjo can be played with a straight or comped bridge.

They can be played with a Moon or stairstep or Davis and still sound good.

They can be finer tuned with a comper.It's just whether anyone wants that or not.

Just choices.

User friendly is big with me...Ain't it great how we all have our own perspective on these things.The word perspective has a wonderful ring of individuality about it,dontchathink?

Edited by - steve davis on 07/18/2014 04:21:29

Tomcat - Posted - 07/18/2014:  04:58:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by steen

I will definitely keep my straight bridge for two reasons. It has precisely the sound I like. And. I don´t like the looks of a crooked bridge on an oldtime banjo. Besides I have lived happy with it since I made my banjo back in 1984.
But that is also the only reasons.
Because why else would I chose a life with more tuning than I have to?
Why would I chose a solution that don´t allow the frets to express (as exact as we can get it) the tones they are ment for on every string. I can´t find a good answer for that. Can you? Steen

P. S. Tomcat an Earls5. Irony and sarcasm and smart outbursts or oneliners are not welcome anymore. I think we have seen much more than enough of that, so let us stop it here.

---

steve davis - Posted - 07/18/2014:  05:04:28

A good lo' one liner has a lot of power and don't take too long to jot down and sarcasm is just plain ol' fun.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/18/2014 05:06:38

BlowingRockNC - Posted - 07/18/2014:  05:29:26

Gosh, I guess I haven't been around BHO long enough to understand the background on all this compensated bridge bashing. It's just another type of banjo bridge. Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head and saying they have to use it. Heck, Steve even has a try it for free approach, so just how bad can it be. I'm going to give one of Steve's bridges a try in order to see if it helps my A-Scale banjo. If it doesn't, then that's the way to cookie crumbles. If it does, then great balls of fire. Anyway, I'm all for small businesses tying to make a dollar. Over the years, I found that they don't last long if they can't produce results. And by the way, I think Mt Airy is a fine place to go for some good help with your banjo.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/18/2014:  05:59:51

Again, for the record, I have never bashed compensated bridges. There are some great ones out there and if you like it, use it. I am just commenting in this thread about  how intonation is perceived and analyzed to the extent it is on forums. In the 'other world' where banjos get 'played' (smiley here) it doesn't seem to be that big a deal. I understand completely that discussion is what forums are for, hence this thread...wink. 

Now some outlandish claims are made about what a bridge will do, and we have all read those. And my comments about straight bridges by number, sounding better across a larger spectrum of banjos verses compensated is just, well, my observations. That in no way means I think you can't find a compensated bridge that will sound good on your banjo. Others here might say the exact opposite..which is fine with me. It is what forums are about.

Nothing is ever 'personal' with me on the forums. I only write about what I read and respond to it. Others may  let it eat at them , which is a sign you may need to step away from places like this,haha.  There are very knowledgeable folks on this forum and even when they don't all agree, the information they put forth is very valuable I think. Discussions can get heated but as long as it is not made into am ugly personal attack, it is all good. Many of us here are passionate about this stuff..which is a good thing.

Anyway, I appreciate the posts and  enjoy reading them.

Tomcat - Posted - 07/18/2014:  06:29:43

Bravo! 😁

Earls 5 - Posted - 07/18/2014:  06:32:52

Ditto ;]

P.S. - Mr. Mysterious said nothing of "one worders"!  Steve - I have a couple of your comper's, in fact I believe I was one of the very first customers on bho.

Edited by - Earls 5 on 07/18/2014 06:37:07

pickNgrin - Posted - 07/18/2014:  07:00:01

I wonder if the invention of auto tuners is partly to blame for the heightened intonation issue. People see that the machine says that their note is off and it bugs them. In the past it wasn't as big of an issue because you can tune a banjo to where it sounds good even though the machine says it is wrong. Beginners are probably a little more worried about it because they are relying on the tuner and have not learned to adjust away from what the tuner says, and they are playing slow enough that the notes don't run together.

Edited by - pickNgrin on 07/18/2014 07:04:51

lazyarcher - Posted - 07/18/2014:  07:11:59

John..once again, a classy post  in a thread that was heading down THAT road.

I'll again emphasize the thought of learning to play your banjo.

At some point, its time to put away the bridges and tone rings and perfect picks and get down to whats real.

When the picks hit steel is what separates those that can and those that can't.

I'd like to quote my friend and philosophical guru Chris Quinn...

"If gear excites you, you are not alone!  There are many real authorities who contribute there.  That said; learn to separate gear from playing: gear is great, but if you can't play Cripple Creek yet, magic picks will not help you!  You don't need a pre-war Gibson, or every new piece of banjo equipment in order to enjoy playing music on the banjo."

steve davis - Posted - 07/18/2014:  07:24:11

When Jimmy Cox tried one of my compensated bridges he said (and with a bit of surprise in his voice),"All your Gs are in tune,"

rudy - Posted - 07/18/2014:  07:32:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by pickNgrin

I wonder if the invention of auto tuners is partly to blame for the heightened intonation issue. People see that the machine says that their note is off and it bugs them. In the past it wasn't as big of an issue because you can tune a banjo to where it sounds good even though the machine says it is wrong. Beginners are probably a little more worried about it because they are relying on the tuner and have not learned to adjust away from what the tuner says, and they are playing slow enough that the notes don't run together.

---

It's probably a factor.

Electronic tuners are a great aid to many players but it's most likely folks that are new to playing any instrument that suffer the most.  Electronic tuners are a logical progression of thought for folks that come from a more (ahem...) modern background.  All you have to do is watch the instant gratification that someone playing "Guitar Hero" gets.  Whenever I ask a gamer if it wouldn't be more satisfying to spend a bit more time and actually learn to play a guitar I'm often greeted with a blank stare.

Tuners should come with a (required reading) pamphlet explaining exactly what a tuner does and what the ramifications of 12TET is.  The truth is most people don't care to delve that deeply into the "basics" of understanding music.  They are content to resolve themselves to a bit of dissonance while playing.

My Peterson strobe has presets for many "sweetened" tunings for various instruments, as well as other types of temperaments.  Just be glad those features aren't an option in the garden variety of electronic tuners!

Dan Drabek - Posted - 07/18/2014:  07:37:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

Thanks, Winged...



Off to bed, have to be up at 4:30 AM for a drive to LA. But then to San Diego to pick up Banjo Boy Elias and go see old pal, David Lindley (Uncle David, to Eli) at the Museum of Making Music in Carlsbad on Saturday night...as part of the banjo exhibit there that I helped to instigate and curate. It is said that David will play...banjo. He'd better!

---

David Lindley and I happened to have several mutual friends back in the 60's so I was fortunate to have met him on a few occasions at a time I was just starting to learn to play the banjo. He was a genius on the banjo (or any instrument he held in his hands at the time) and was probably the biggest influence on my early love for the instrument. I hope he plays it at the exhibit. I wish he played it more often these days.

DD

BlowingRockNC - Posted - 07/18/2014:  07:54:49

The comments about electronic tuners are spot on. I use them, but my ear frequently tells me that the tuner is not right for the circumstances. I find them most useful when there's too much noise to hear my banjo clearly, and that happens a lot at jams in noisy places. I like electronic tuners, but I don't live by them.

steve davis - Posted - 07/18/2014:  08:36:59

I like tuning a guitar by harmonic comparisons/removing the phase difference by ear.

Very strong tuning when done right.Powerful bass.You need a quiet place to get it right.

Another way to use a tuner is to write down the open note values after tuning by ear so that you can go that identical tuning in a noisy environment.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/18/2014 08:40:25

Bronx banjo - Posted - 07/18/2014:  09:37:19

I have the same question PickNGrin has about electronic tuners. I don't own one. (I think they look horrible clipped on to a banjo peg head.)  You may end up with each string perfectly tuned to its individual note, but not necessarily tuned, or tempered to the other strings. The result is  perfectly tuned individual strings and a banjo that's out of tune to the ear. There's no substitute for using and training your ears to hear a banjo's tuning, making corrections, moving the bridge if necessary and ultimately realizing that there is no perfect tuning so just get on with it and play the darn thing.  

steve davis - Posted - 07/18/2014:  10:29:47

I like the way my banjos sound and perform setting all notes to 0 and flattening the b 5 cents.Sounds nice and strong.

That is of course using my bridge.

pasturepicker - Posted - 07/18/2014:  10:35:32

I believe that tuning is somewhat of an exercise in compromise. I also think that really good players learn to slightly choke the string when fretting to improve the intonation when needed as they play. Most of them are probably not even aware of what they are doing.

steve davis - Posted - 07/18/2014:  10:38:44

I'd rather just play without bothering to adjust as I go.Sounds like more work.

The same way as I would rather play a more in tune piano than a less in tune one.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/18/2014 10:42:55

steen - Posted - 07/18/2014:  10:57:39

It is EASIER to find a straight bridge that meets your demands as for sound.

A straight bridge may be cheaper.

A straight bridge may be better looking.

Here comes a statement:  If you measure the absolute best intonation of all fretted banjos in in the world as exact as ever possible, NONE of these will show a perfect straight line, no matter what set of strings you use. Some may get quite close and justify the use of a straight bridge, especially if you have an unusual low action, but the big majority would need a a little compensation and an averidge compensation will in most of the these cases be better than none.

I myself have lived happily for many years with an intonation issue, and I will not change that for sound reasons, but I ask myself and you guys, why not everybody as a rule of principles will go after a solution that allows the frets as exactly as possible to express the tones they were just made for.  A positive side effect could be that you did not have to tune and retune as much as before, (as I clearly experienced (the closed thread page 4)).

Is it a question of tradition? What if banjos from the start had carried compensated bridges. Would anybody to day even think of questioning this obvious right way of doing things?     Steen

pickNgrin - Posted - 07/18/2014:  11:54:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by steen

[...] but I ask myself and you guys, why not everybody as a rule of principles will go after a solution that allows the frets as exactly as possible to express the tones they were just made for.  

  

---

The bridge affects intonation, but it also affects tone and volume. The perfect bridge intonation-wise is not necessarily the best tone and volume-wise.

steve davis - Posted - 07/18/2014:  13:04:49

I adjust tone with the weight mostly.

Every different kind of wood has its favorite weight for a given tone.

Even the same kind of wood depending on how it was aged.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 07/18/2014:  14:02:41

Then why the H would it be necessary to flatten or drop the B... It CANNOT BE CORRECT..... and will not be at the 7 for the G either...
Do Like BP and the thousands of other good or better pickers on here and provide us with some Sound Files or videos That show or illustrate!!!!!!!! Nothing so far that demonstrates anything..

steve davis - Posted - 07/18/2014:  14:20:22

Just cause it sounds good there Ken.

What's incorrect about that?

steen - Posted - 07/18/2014:  14:47:22

Hey Tomcat and Earls 5. Of course you can write whatever you like (since I dont pay your wages :-)), and what I wrote was more a prayer than an order. I am not even sure if was just to you. I just got a creepy feeling because of what we have been through of personal, hostile behavior from oversmart people. So sorry if I offended you without reason. It was just a reflex, and of course friendly oneliners (and oneworders) are fine with me. Steen (who is not mysterous at all).



P.S A good motto for forums like this could be: If you want to play here - always go for the ball (and not the man).



I don´t think I have more to say about this, so let´s move on.  Have a good time both of you.

Edited by - steen on 07/18/2014 14:50:49

steen - Posted - 07/18/2014:  14:57:41

But what about my claims at the bottom of page 3. Aren´t they provokative enough to create a little discussion. They were meant to. Steen

steve davis - Posted - 07/18/2014:  15:05:06

More like experienced people.

I remember my old man saying angrily,"Don't get smart with me!"

Edited by - steve davis on 07/18/2014 15:05:55

Aradobanjo - Posted - 07/18/2014:  15:49:03

Hello,

Change happens. When it does, we attempt to 1) get back to a state previous 2) look for a different state 3) start over or 4) quit. 

Sometimes siren calls of elixir are offered when change happens. Free offers to try this elixir bring claims of instant change. But, change is for a moment. 

As requested, proof is offered to compare old with the new. The change is offered as proof that status 1) has been achieved. Replication is tough business. 

I just bought a Li-poly battery charger to charge my iPhone. Pretty cool. Rechargeable batteries are about one of the singular items to bring us to a previous state.  

So, is the desire for change envy? A banjo bridge is unique. No two trees form the same way. As such, I find it difficult to assert that all bridges are the same by design alone. A design can 1) reduce weight 2) provide strength 3) meet specifications. 

This last month an altered material was introduced. Some discussion around use results was offered. But, threads did not go 19 pages and get halted by a moderator.

Designs based on wood will never last long. They are replaceable.   

ken61 - Posted - 07/18/2014:  17:03:51

Now, we have heard from the players and from the professionals, how about the audience.

I have never said, while listening to a group with a banjo player, nor have I ever heard anyone say, "Hey the banjo players third string is not intonating properly!"

I agree totally , John!  Nice job !

Got to run, i heard there was a new posting about bridges a few minutes ago.

ken

 

banjoak - Posted - 07/18/2014:  21:53:30

I think in the pursuit of understanding how things work, in most any pursuit, and then getting into more and more detail, (zoom in, put under microscope) - perhaps seeing the beauty of the math, physics, engineering, theoretical ideals of perfection... the more you learn, and get experience the more detail you want to work out. It is easy to get overly fascinated and then wrapped up in (if not obsess over) the minutia. I know I've been guilty of this. Not that it isn't interesting, but comes a point of how significant are these details? No doubt sometimes these things play a part - to a degree, but sometimes it's to just get that extra .05%. (and thinking your heightened sensitivity is important to listeners) In music you see it in intonation, tone, timing, music theory, to aspects like microphones and sound reinforcement... not to mention then playability, among others. Sometimes it helps to zoom out; ask what is the most important aspects in playing the music. (some folks might place musicianship, like tight rhythmic groove, expression over perfect intonation?)

One of the things about zooming in is that it often involves taking aspects out of the whole context; ignoring some aspects involved when in context. Especially a cognition aspect. Sure we might notice intonational and tonal things when played by itself, in a quiet small space, and notes lasting 1 second. But in real playing context things are often much different as far as cognition.

------

Am curious though, when speaking of intonation of straight bridge, if anyone (with a strobe) has actually mapped out all the frequencies up to say the 12th fret, and how much they diverge from ET (as well as being able to see where problem intervals would occur?. What are we really talking about the most it will be out?

Edited by - banjoak on 07/18/2014 21:57:56

steve davis - Posted - 07/19/2014:  05:48:58

I more notice the difference in how the notes "feel" between a straight bridge and a comper.

There's an aspect of "on song" with a well comped bridge that isn't available  with a stock one.

Much like a finely tuned and balanced engine compared to a stock one.

It's hard to describe and best experienced physically.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/19/2014 05:54:09

rudy - Posted - 07/19/2014:  06:05:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoak

I think in the pursuit of understanding how things work, in most any pursuit, and then getting into more and more detail, (zoom in, put under microscope) - perhaps seeing the beauty of the math, physics, engineering, theoretical ideals of perfection... the more you learn, and get experience the more detail you want to work out. It is easy to get overly fascinated and then wrapped up in (if not obsess over) the minutia. I know I've been guilty of this. Not that it isn't interesting, but comes a point of how significant are these details? No doubt sometimes these things play a part - to a degree, but sometimes it's to just get that extra .05%. (and thinking your heightened sensitivity is important to listeners) In music you see it in intonation, tone, timing, music theory, to aspects like microphones and sound reinforcement... not to mention then playability, among others. Sometimes it helps to zoom out; ask what is the most important aspects in playing the music. (some folks might place musicianship, like tight rhythmic groove, expression over perfect intonation?)

One of the things about zooming in is that it often involves taking aspects out of the whole context; ignoring some aspects involved when in context. Especially a cognition aspect. Sure we might notice intonational and tonal things when played by itself, in a quiet small space, and notes lasting 1 second. But in real playing context things are often much different as far as cognition.

------

Am curious though, when speaking of intonation of straight bridge, if anyone (with a strobe) has actually mapped out all the frequencies up to say the 12th fret, and how much they diverge from ET (as well as being able to see where problem intervals would occur?. What are we really talking about the most it will be out?

---

Excellent post, banjoak.

Steve Davis has stated in previous posts that his compensated bridges vary by no more than 2 cents for any note on the fret board.

Banjophobic - Posted - 07/19/2014:  06:14:52

hmm, I don't think I have ever purposefully mapped those intonation inaccuracies of the typical fretted banjo scale using a straight bridge. Maybe this week if I find time, I will check a few banjos using my shop strobe. I'm guessing the inaccuracies with a well set up, made banjo with proper bridge placement will off in many spots, but are they off enough to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth? 

gospelman97 - Posted - 07/19/2014:  06:20:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

hmm, I don't think I have ever purposefully mapped those intonation inaccuracies of the typical fretted banjo scale using a straight bridge. Maybe this week if I find time, I will check a few banjos using my shop strobe. I'm guessing the inaccuracies with a well set up, made banjo with proper bridge placement will off in many spots, but are they off enough to cause wailing and gnashing of teeth? 

---

Sounds like a fun experiment.  Maybe I can help out when I come and visit this week.  I can jot down the numbers for you as you test the frets.  I might also be able to run some statistical analysis of the findings.

Edited by - gospelman97 on 07/19/2014 06:25:44

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 07/19/2014:  06:59:45

I've done it... Use closed chord forms.. Usually only one note per position may be off a little using a straight bridge, the majors for each tuned key are usually pretty close.. Easy to check each chord note as you go up the neck..

If you comp/tune for a key/chord and change, errors are larger and change positions in other keys/chord..

(My B string is tuned dead on to B and it notes correctly all the way up.. The whys were posted over 10 years ago when the major Gurus were here and I don't want to write that book again.)

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 07/19/2014 07:04:19

pickNgrin - Posted - 07/19/2014:  08:10:40

I'm with ken61. Since Earl used a straight bridge, his intonation "HAD" to be off. Somebody please post a tune of his where you can hear it. The Theory of Banjo Minutia says that they are all off.  Which one do you hear it in the worst? Who wants to go out on a limb? I don't hear anything but awesome.  To my mind, the compensated bridge fixes a problem that is more theoretical than practical.

Edited by - pickNgrin on 07/19/2014 08:17:08

Lew H - Posted - 07/19/2014:  08:35:46

I'm glad to see some great pickers stand up for regular bridges. I never understood the thought behind the compensated bridge--unless it only applied to open G tuning. As a old-time picker, I use six or seven different tunings, and I've reckoned that if compensated bridges do something useful, I would need a different one for each tuning. My thinking is likely wrong, but after reading this forum, I no longer "fret" about compensated bridges.

steve davis - Posted - 07/19/2014:  08:56:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoak

I think in the pursuit of understanding how things work, in most any pursuit, and then getting into more and more detail, (zoom in, put under microscope) - perhaps seeing the beauty of the math, physics, engineering, theoretical ideals of perfection... the more you learn, and get experience the more detail you want to work out. It is easy to get overly fascinated and then wrapped up in (if not obsess over) the minutia. I know I've been guilty of this. Not that it isn't interesting, but comes a point of how significant are these details? No doubt sometimes these things play a part - to a degree, but sometimes it's to just get that extra .05%. (and thinking your heightened sensitivity is important to listeners) In music you see it in intonation, tone, timing, music theory, to aspects like microphones and sound reinforcement... not to mention then playability, among others. Sometimes it helps to zoom out; ask what is the most important aspects in playing the music. (some folks might place musicianship, like tight rhythmic groove, expression over perfect intonation?)

One of the things about zooming in is that it often involves taking aspects out of the whole context; ignoring some aspects involved when in context. Especially a cognition aspect. Sure we might notice intonational and tonal things when played by itself, in a quiet small space, and notes lasting 1 second. But in real playing context things are often much different as far as cognition.

------

Am curious though, when speaking of intonation of straight bridge, if anyone (with a strobe) has actually mapped out all the frequencies up to say the 12th fret, and how much they diverge from ET (as well as being able to see where problem intervals would occur?. What are we really talking about the most it will be out?

---

Excellent post, banjoak.

Steve Davis has stated in previous posts that his compensated bridges vary by no more than 2 cents for any note on the fret board.

---

I've always known there were a couple of notes that were nearly 4 cents out,so I don't know where you got the 2 cents reference.

I've never implied or stated that my bridge makes all fretted notes 0 ...it does however make more 0 fretted notes than any straight bridge.

Easier to see when carefully installed and measured.

Nice choice to have the notes like that.

I don't mind playing a straight bridge,either...I just choose not to.

It's great to hear these different perspectives on intonation.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/19/2014 09:09:43

banjoak - Posted - 07/19/2014:  12:41:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lew H

I'm glad to see some great pickers stand up for regular bridges. I never understood the thought behind the compensated bridge--unless it only applied to open G tuning. As a old-time picker, I use six or seven different tunings, and I've reckoned that if compensated bridges do something useful, I would need a different one for each tuning. My thinking is likely wrong, but after reading this forum, I no longer "fret" about compensated bridges.

---

Bridge compensation isn't about open G tuning (or the key of G to be better tuned) , rather to compensate for the differences involved with different thickness of strings. Generally, the thickier the string, the longer it need to be; and wrapped strings need a different length than solid strings. It's why, guitars and mandos are often compensated.

eagleisland - Posted - 07/19/2014:  13:03:02

A slightly different perspective.

A year or two ago at the Joe Val festival, I had the chance to chat for a while with Kenny Ingram. Kenny uses a straight bridge. Somehow, we got onto the topic of compensated bridges - specifically, Arthur Hatfield's. Arthur and Kenny are friends.

Kenny acknowledged that, especially on the second string, a straight bridge can cause intonation issues, and he usually tunes his second string a bit flat. His view was that the only place people would really hear a difference is in licks when the first string, open, and second string, fretted at 3, are played together in a pinch (plenty of Scruggs licks involve that combination).

Kenny's approach is to ever-so-slightly choke the second string in that situation. And he's more than good enough to do that on the fly. His feeling was that compensated bridges tend to be slightly heavier than straight ones, and he believes he gets better sound out of a light, straight bridge.

So the bridge isn't compensating. His left hand is.

I have a compensated bridge on my Hatfield and it works great. Interestingly, I tried a compensated bridge on my Ode - which has a slightly longer scale. That particular banjo sounds better with a straight bridge.

By the way, what's the over/under on how many pages THIS thread goes before it gets locked?

steve davis - Posted - 07/19/2014:  13:19:31

The reason I got interested in this stuff was first jealousy of strat players with the adjustable saddles and seeing how they liked to set them.

I imagined a few different designs that would adjust(I almost bought one of those adjustable guitar sets from StuMac,but it was too heavy along with anything else I could think of,so I then knew the only way(other than total electric tone was to carve it.

Doesn't take much weight at the bridge to rob the tone.

My whole goal in the first one was to find out what would happen if I could get the open(or harmonic) notes at 0 on a tuner to still be 0 when fretted at the 12th fret.

I was just guessing at what a good setting might be on a strat.I did get the strings lengths to be 0 in those comparisons and invite anyone else to "plot" those string lengths as I have described in my blog telling of the 5/8 block and paper clip method.

Without wondering why just get each string figured out to match open/12th fret fretted and you'll come up with the Davis bridge top.

My jig was made on the same day I figured it out and it is the only hole pattern I use on all my bridges.

Anyway,if you plot those strings they will make that pattern and then all the Gs will be in tune.They get closer than a bridge can do with slanted frets so there are "drifters" from 0 in some strings,but the proximity to 0 (and right ons) is impressive.The feeling of playing this particular balance of string lengths is very pleasant.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/19/2014 13:22:56

Bart Veerman - Posted - 07/19/2014:  13:35:16

The longer I futzed around with the bridge thing the clearer it became that generically compensated bridges were the incorrect approach. Measuring the intonation offsets on many different banjos showed me time after time that most banjos don't need compensating and I felt that I simply couldn't put my name on one-fits-all generically compensated bridges any longer. I discontinued making & selling generics back in 2006 and focused on the "prescription" method only instead. It was a good decision, the right decision.

Tim Purcell - Posted - 07/19/2014:  13:49:36

quote:

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Originally posted by eagleisland

A slightly different perspective.

A year or two ago at the Joe Val festival, I had the chance to chat for a while with Kenny Ingram. Kenny uses a straight bridge. Somehow, we got onto the topic of compensated bridges - specifically, Arthur Hatfield's. Arthur and Kenny are friends.

Kenny acknowledged that, especially on the second string, a straight bridge can cause intonation issues, and he usually tunes his second string a bit flat. His view was that the only place people would really hear a difference is in licks when the first string, open, and second string, fretted at 3, are played together in a pinch (plenty of Scruggs licks involve that combination).

Kenny's approach is to ever-so-slightly choke the second string in that situation. And he's more than good enough to do that on the fly. His feeling was that compensated bridges tend to be slightly heavier than straight ones, and he believes he gets better sound out of a light, straight bridge.

So the bridge isn't compensating. His left hand is.

I have a compensated bridge on my Hatfield and it works great. Interestingly, I tried a compensated bridge on my Ode - which has a slightly longer scale. That particular banjo sounds better with a straight bridge.

By the way, what's the over/under on how many pages THIS thread goes before it gets locked?

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Very good point, Skip. Almost every banjo player tends to slightly bend a string when fretting. It would only be out of a natural occurrence given the position of the fretting hand and it's location on the neck. This happens especially during slides, hammer ons, and pulloffs.  Even with a compensated 3rd string, I still flatten all my strings a cent and even a little more so on the 3rd. Most of my re-tuning is on the 2nd string, mainly because that string gets choked a lot up the neck.

Over the past 4 years, only 1 out of 10 customers wanted a comp 3rd. Of course I've only had 10 customers so what does that tell ya.....

Tim

JoeDownes - Posted - 07/19/2014:  13:51:30

Generally speaking a generic compensated bridge will be closer to a perfect intonation than a straight bridge, so why not make one?

 

Bart Veerman - Posted - 07/19/2014:  14:05:02

Joe: measure the required intonation offsets on a bunch of different banjos and you'll soon find out there's no such thing as "generally speaking" when it comes to banjos. What's "perfect" for one banjo more often than not is quite "unperfect" for another. If you don't take the few minutes to do the measuring and come up with factual numbers then despite the many wonderful theories, guess work is where it's at.