warpdrive - Posted - 01/02/2018:  13:22:04

"OH-EM-FREAKING G!"

IF IT WAS THIS HARD FOR ME,

"ID QUIT"!

WARP!

Waldguy - Posted - 01/02/2018:  13:33:13

If it wasn't kind of hard, I'd never bother.  :)

Edited by - Waldguy on 01/02/2018 13:33:46

phb - Posted - 01/02/2018:  13:33:45

Not sure how many of you are into physics, but there it is widely accepted that a certain model can only explain some phenomena but not others. E.g. you can describe light as a wave and explain interference patterns (but not the photoelectric effect). You can describe light as a stream of particles and explain the photoelectric effect (but not interference patterns). And so on. I see this discussion in a similar way. For some things (arrangements, finger patterns, roll patterns, melodies, you name it) one way of looking at it may make more sense than the other and the other way round. Also, some explanations may make more sense at a certain stage of learning than at another (earlier or later).

warpdrive - Posted - 01/02/2018:  13:56:07

Come on Guys,
"Please"
Somebody, Anybody,
I can't be the only person that plays like this,
All this TIM, TITM, forward, backward, sideways stuff, "crap" whatever you call it!

I learned one roll when i was 13 years old, and played everything out of that roll till i was 14 and a half, then i learned another roll, and between those 2 rolls, i somehow managed to figure out how to get melody without reading and thinking in these terms.

Don't any of you play a song in your head before you ever pick up your banjo, and then when you "do" pick up your banjo, your hand execute's what you did in your head?
I mean maybe, along the way, you work out a few kinks here and there, but to pain stakingly have to think or even worse "read" TIM, TITM, all the time, i'd have a stroke!
I didn't even think like you guys when i learning as a young teen, i can't even begin to understand how there could be any joy in any of your playing if you have to break something down like this!

And i will Apologize up front if this sounds condescending, but i'm starting to think i've been doing it all wrong for 44 years now!
But i based on what i'm reading, this thread could go on for years!
Warp!


,

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 01/02/2018:  14:14:47

Yeah warp, from the time I was a couple of years in, I was thinking about my tone, thinking about my timing, thinking about where I'm going next - I was NOT thinking 'should I play a forward or a backward roll here'? That should be a goal I think. Just play music. But I know you have to walk before you can run...

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 01/02/2018:  14:18:29

 Amen..  The truth is, if you know what your right hand is doing, or even think about it...   Its too late, your not there..  I've posted before how I wasted eight years on the banjo..  Coming over from Chet style guitar, I just picked it up and took off.. AND before long I played any and every thing..all over the neck, upside down and backwards!  Bring it on ! Some people thought I was the hot banjo picker and in ignorance I did too!!

Then one night my world crashed, watching a simple Stanley style picker....  And I got it.. Everything I was thinking was WRONG.. in picking or being a banjo picker.  It was a hard S.O.B. to go back to the most basic of basics and start again behind zero, with a multitude of bad ingrained habits, I'll never break them all, don't do what I did or do...

The point being, as on this thread, If I had someone to Kick My Ass more or less and say "don't do that or thats not right..  Even as hard headed as I am, It would have been the best thing in the world for my picking..

Warp has nothing on me in the hardheaded area..  But I listen.. This thread could have saved me years and maybe I could have made a higher level..

SimonSlick - Posted - 01/02/2018:  14:18:48

THE TURN OF THE PEG, ACT II, Scene i

(Somewhere in North Carolina, July 1963)

Don: Hey Earl, how's it going?
Earl: Just great, Don. How about you?
Don: Just fine
Earl: What ya got on your mind, Don? I ain't swapping banjers with you.
Don: I just thought I'd stop and talk a spell. Maybe re-visit some roll dogma with you.
Earl: Say what?
Don: Roll dogma, you know, roll dogma (Don plays some air banjo.)
Earl: Lester, let's go.

warpdrive - Posted - 01/02/2018:  14:24:20

Larry,
i get where your coming from, maybe because i've always been able to get music out of what ever instrument i've "wanted" to get music out of, i just did it.
I didn't think about how hard it was going to be, or even if i was doing it right(not at first), i just wanted to see if i could make heads or tails of it first, then i worried later on about it's complexity's.
I know the more progress i made, the more i wanted to make, and i could go for extended hours on end, sometimes days, and never know there was anything else in the world but what i was wanting to figure out, to get a sound that was pleasing to me.

I guess maybe, i never knew when i was walking or running, i just knew i was!
And again,
Larry your one of my Favorites!
Warp!

Mooooo - Posted - 01/02/2018:  14:32:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by warpdrive

Come on Guys,

"Please"

Somebody, Anybody,

I can't be the only person that plays like this,



Don't any of you play a song in your head before you ever pick up your banjo, and then when you "do" pick up your banjo, your hand execute's what you did in your head?

I mean maybe, along the way, you work out a few kinks here and there, but to pain stakingly have to think or even worse "read" TIM, TITM, all the time, i'd have a stroke!

 

---

I don't even think of what roll I am playing at all unless someone talks about it, it's hard to think about sometimes. I don't practice specifically rolls, even though I play them all the time...I guess I must have at one point, but not for very long, it's kind of like learning to ride a bike, once you get it it becomes second nature...you can get faster by just riding the bike without thinking about it...and learning to pop wheelies and jump ramps is like learning new licks.

bluegrassboy - Posted - 01/02/2018:  16:18:20

i have just learned that i never knew anything about banjo playing!

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 01/02/2018:  19:46:44

Amid the chaff, I’ve been interested to note the references to Jeff Kimball.

He was my first teacher, in 1976.  I don’t know if he had “systematized” his approach to patterns/rolls entirely at that time, but I can vouch for some aspects of it in his teaching.

He started me with the thumb-and-pinch and the alternating thumb patterns (he never in my hearing called it a “square roll”, quite possibly because it is in no fashion a “roll”).  From there, he introduced me to TMI, the “forward roll” and MIT, which, at least at that point, he was calling the “reverse roll”.  Any tab I worked with was on my own; in lessons with Jeff, he played played a few bars, then had me imitate what he had just done.  But I’ve rarely found it necessary to view rolls/patterns in any other fashion that as combinations of the components he taught.

This is pretty much my first song as Jeff taught it to me:

hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...72014.pdf

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/03/2018:  08:58:10

Okay, everyone, can we play nice and not have the sarcasm and flaming? Enough is enough. Either straighten up, be civil or this thread is gone.

Rich Weill - Posted - 01/03/2018:  09:51:22

To clarify my post above, I was not taught to play songs using any tab or written music. I was taught to play songs by ear: to (1) determine via strumming the song's chord progression by ear, (2) add a melody-friendly roll over that chord progression in proper rhythm, and (3) add melody notes within that roll. Then we would go back to step 2 using a different roll and repeat. This was the process: first, harmony; second, rhythm; third, melody. [Mixing rolls and adding ornamentation came later.]

So the roll was a template into which you dropped the melody. You didn't alter the roll's finger pattern. Rather, depending on the melody note, you might have to alter the roll string and the fretting of that string.

Over the years, there has been considerable discussion in this Forum about whether you add the melody into the roll, or add the roll around the melody. A lot of this may be semantics -- but I like to analogize it to painting a sign. Do you paint the letters first, and the background color around the letters? Or do you paint the entire sign with the background color, let it dry, and then paint the letters? To my way of thinking, the latter is easier -- and is the equivalent of laying down a roll (over the chords) in the background and then swapping in melody notes in place of generic roll notes. And if you're trying to do it by ear, I believe it is infinitely easier this way.

pcfive - Posted - 01/03/2018:  10:36:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rich Weill

To clarify my post above, I was not taught to play songs using any tab or written music. I was taught to play songs by ear: to (1) determine via strumming the song's chord progression by ear, (2) add a melody-friendly roll over that chord progression in proper rhythm, and (3) add melody notes within that roll. Then we would go back to step 2 using a different roll and repeat. This was the process: first, harmony; second, rhythm; third, melody. [Mixing rolls and adding ornamentation came later.]



So the roll was a template into which you dropped the melody. You didn't alter the roll's finger pattern. Rather, depending on the melody note, you might have to alter the roll string and the fretting of that string.



Over the years, there has been considerable discussion in this Forum about whether you add the melody into the roll, or add the roll around the melody. A lot of this may be semantics -- but I like to analogize it to painting a sign. Do you paint the letters first, and the background color around the letters? Or do you paint the entire sign with the background color, let it dry, and then paint the letters? To my way of thinking, the latter is easier -- and is the equivalent of laying down a roll (over the chords) in the background and then swapping in melody notes in place of generic roll notes. And if you're trying to do it by ear, I believe it is infinitely easier this way.

---

I think that describes what I do most of the time, for either lead breaks or backup. With backup, you just avoid playing the melody, but otherwise it's similar to breaks.

That is also kind of similar to the method described in Splitting the Licks, which is how I learned. 

I partially disagreed with the original post, because it seemed to recommend 3 note rolls, instead of 8 or 16 note rolls. I think 8 or 16 notes is preferable, because it helps you emphasize the notes that fit with the 2/4 or 4/4 rhythm.

However lots of the comments seemed to agree with the OP, saying one and two measure roll patterns are confusing and unhelpful.

I think it probably depends on the person, and maybe there is no definite answer. But I and several others have stated a preference for roll patterns. 

Are roll patterns only for beginners, and should we forget about them eventually? I have no idea. I am not always conscious what pattern I am playing at any moment, but I think I am conscious of it pretty often.

There are probably an almost infinite variety of these patterns. Sometimes an eighth note is played instead of two sixteenth notes, and this can happen anywhere in the roll. Hammers, slides and pull-offs are often added here or there.

I think maybe this all depends on how much you like to analyze what you are doing. Some people like to play intuitively with no analysis, but others try to understand.

I don't see roll patterns as dogma. They are just recommended very often because they can be helpful. Earl probably never thought about them, but as others here noted, he definitely played them.

phb - Posted - 01/03/2018:  12:20:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I partially disagreed with the original post, because it seemed to recommend 3 note rolls, instead of 8 or 16 note rolls. I think 8 or 16 notes is preferable, because it helps you emphasize the notes that fit with the 2/4 or 4/4 rhythm.

Using exclusively 8- and 16-note rolls puts the "predetermined breaking point" always between two measures which is an unnecessary limitation if you learn to use 3- and 4-note rolls instead. That's how I understood it.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/03/2018:  12:49:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

Okay, everyone, can we play nice and not have the sarcasm and flaming? Enough is enough. Either straighten up, be civil or this thread is gone.

---

Sherry,

What is flaming?

ken

eagleisland - Posted - 01/03/2018:  13:07:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by phb

Using exclusively 8- and 16-note rolls puts the "predetermined breaking point" always between two measures which is an unnecessary limitation if you learn to use 3- and 4-note rolls instead. That's how I understood it.

 

---

You understood correctly, phb. Take, for example, Earl's arrangement of Fireball Mail. After the pickup notes, there are four complete forward rolls - the rolls, not a so-called "forward roll" pattern - lasting a measure and a half. That remaining half in that measure is addressed by a TITM square. The measure after THAT starts TMTM, followed by TITM (which, as I look at it, is entirely consistent with Kimble's Thumb-Finger concept). After a full measure of quarter notes (one of which is a pinch), we again see the TIM forward roll repeated beyond the start of the FOLLOWING measure - only through the first full beat this time, however, before we change things up again.

This is why I think it's much more useful to think beyond eight-note patterns and understand what the music itself is really trying to do. Eight-note patterns represent one measure. But if the required motion extends beyond one measure, thinking in terms of an eight-note pattern becomes a hindrance, not a help.

Edited by - eagleisland on 01/03/2018 13:10:06

pcfive - Posted - 01/03/2018:  13:09:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by phb

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I partially disagreed with the original post, because it seemed to recommend 3 note rolls, instead of 8 or 16 note rolls. I think 8 or 16 notes is preferable, because it helps you emphasize the notes that fit with the 2/4 or 4/4 rhythm.

Using exclusively 8- and 16-note rolls puts the "predetermined breaking point" always between two measures which is an unnecessary limitation if you learn to use 3- and 4-note rolls instead. That's how I understood it.

 

---

Another option is continuous rolls, which are 24 notes. Then there doesn't have to be a breaking point.

I haven't ever tried 3 note rolls, I am just guessing that it might lead to accenting the first note of each 3. The most important thing, it seems to me, is to get the right rhythm, and afaik that is the purpose of 8 and 16 (and 24) note rolls.

So I don't see roll patterns as dogma, but as potentially helpful ways of maintaining correct rhythm.

eagleisland - Posted - 01/03/2018:  13:47:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I haven't ever tried 3 note rolls, I am just guessing that it might lead to accenting the first note of each 3. The most important thing, it seems to me, is to get the right rhythm, and afaik that is the purpose of 8 and 16 (and 24) note rolls.

 

---

I have a feeling I'm going to regret doing this, but... what the hell. The whole purpose of this thread was to provide a different way of thinking about things, so I'll give it one more try.

Actually, pcfive, I'd be flat out astonished if you HAVEN'T "tried three-note rolls," as you say. Have you played the T-I-M-T-I-M-T-M pattern in a lot of instructional books? Then you absolutely HAVE tried them. You simply haven't recognized them as such, which - based on the way you've described your practice approach, is hardly surprising.

The most important thing is to not confuse rolls with roll patterns. Many developing players do, courtesy of instructional methods that don't make the distinction clear (and this has a lot to do with why I call it roll dogma).

Rolls are ways we move our hands. Thumb-Index-Middle; Middle-Index-Thumb; Thumb-Middle-Index. Thumb-Finger. They are building blocks. You might want to re-read the original post in this thread if you're still having trouble understanding this.

Roll PATTERNS, on the other hand, are combinations of those fundamental rolls put together in such a way as to produce the temporal equivalent of a measure of music. They are constructs. Does that make sense? Do you see the difference?

And as to the rhythmic aspect you mentioned - that happens only if you let it (and the same thing can happen with patterns if you let it). So no, you DON'T necessarily end up accenting the first note of three.

The whole idea here is to remove the limitations built into the 8-note roll construct, which can then give us greater freedom of expression on the instrument. It helps us work things out if we see or hear something cool that doesn't line up with a pattern we already know. It underscores the premise of using rolls - not roll patterns - as a a fundamental mechanism that allows us to play the notes we want to play, when and how we want to play them - instead of trying to squeeze things into a familiar box.

That's the idea. Hope you'll give it some thought.

Edited by - eagleisland on 01/03/2018 13:54:42

warpdrive - Posted - 01/03/2018:  14:13:32

Ken,
Flaming, is what Earl, Big k, JD, Sonny, Don, Ron, Charlie, it's what all the good banjo pickers do when they are really gitin it!
Warp!

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/03/2018:  15:27:02

Ken, flaming is when you are insulting someone else.... being mean, nasty, calling names. It can be several things or just one thing.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/03/2018:  15:31:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

Ken, flaming is when you are insulting someone else.... being mean, nasty, calling names. It can be several things or just one thing.

---

Thank you. But I have to tell you I am going to talk to Warp. He Lied To Me!! (Sheri,it ain't nasty if its true)

ken

Jim T - Posted - 01/03/2018:  16:43:00

PCFIVE................please tell Skip that you'll give it some thought, so we don't go down this same path again.



Skip............. please tell PCFIVE that there's times where roll patterns will work fine in a song, so we don't go down this same path again.



Thanks, Jim

Edited by - Jim T on 01/03/2018 16:44:15

eagleisland - Posted - 01/03/2018:  16:58:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim T

PCFIVE................please tell Skip that you'll give it some thought, so we don't go down this same path again.



Skip............. please tell PCFIVE that there's times where roll patterns will work fine in a song, so we don't go down this same path again.



Thanks, Jim

---

"I don't care who y'are - that's funny, right there!" -- Larry the Cable Guy

Mean that, Jim. And pcfive, there are INDEED times when patterns work great.

phb - Posted - 01/03/2018:  23:46:27

quote:Originally posted by pcfive
"I haven't ever tried 3 note rolls, I am just guessing that it might lead to accenting the first note of each 3. The most important thing, it seems to me, is to get the right rhythm, and afaik that is the purpose of 8 and 16 (and 24) note rolls.

" So I don't see roll patterns as dogma, but as potentially helpful ways of maintaining correct rhythm.

Sure. Having another degree of freedom implies that there are more ways of doing it wrong. That's a given and the reason why it would be a next level of learning. It is desirable because you can also use that additional degree of freedom for artistical expression.

I'm not remotely there yet but I'll try to remember when I get there... :)

pickin_fool - Posted - 01/04/2018:  05:09:19

"What is flaming?"

jimi hendrix flamed his guitar..i saw it

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/04/2018:  05:13:12

I don't know what you guys are arguing about. There's more than one way to skin a cat as my mother used to say.... or more than one way to play a banjo. It's your banjo, play it like you want to play it. There's no perfectly right or extremely wrong way to play, just whatever is easiest for you to pick and get the notes out in time, in tempo and with good technique.

FYI: I don't think rolls when I'm picking breaks, I think melody and "fills". My fingers just know what to do. With backup again, I don't really think rolls, although I do use some of them. It's just whatever the fingers and brain decide to do. I do think, however, that a good basic background in knowing rolls will help you become more familiar with your banjo... then forget the rolls and think melody. Just my thoughts, for whatever they're worth.

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 01/04/2018:  07:43:27

I never thought of rolls being thought of as dogma. They are just learning tools. I suppose there are some tunes played using only rolls, but that is a choice made by the picker.

pappy c - Posted - 01/05/2018:  13:02:29

Like was being said, the dogma of rolls may not be the be- all, end-all. One mans opinion for thought. I am a Scruggs guy. Don't do much else. The roll's served me well once I started to strive to pick melody with my thumb with the thought of continuing the roll. Because I am so roll attached, melodic and some other songs are difficult for me. Just the way I learned and it is OK. If I was giving advice to a beginner, I would say the rolls are important but not to lock in on them. Melody & timing are what makes it all work. How someone else gets there is not important to me. If it sounds good, well I enjoy it.

Laurie Grundy - Posted - 01/05/2018:  17:22:58

This topic has caused me to I analyse my playing and I realise that I do rely on rolls pretty much , because rolls and placing the melody notes within the rolls, seem to suit my thought processes and approach to picking banjo and particularly Scruggs style. For both Scruggs stuff and melodic I seek out the melody first and then fill in around the melody notes within the bars and then check to see in fact what rolls I have now made ? I also play a fair bit of two finger picking for melodic and Irish stuff but generally I will have to say I must be a roll player. I believe anyone listening to my playing would not know what is going through my mind for the end result they are hearing. So I would say to anyone wanting to play the banjo pick it the best way you know how to get the best results. Works for me anyway.

Edited by - Laurie Grundy on 01/05/2018 17:24:45

eagleisland - Posted - 01/05/2018:  17:59:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurie Grundy

This topic has caused me to I analyse my playing and I realise that I do rely on rolls pretty much , because rolls and placing the melody notes within the rolls, seem to suit my thought processes and approach to picking banjo and particularly Scruggs style. For both Scruggs stuff and melodic I seek out the melody first and then fill in around the melody notes within the bars and then check to see in fact what rolls I have now made ? I also play a fair bit of two finger picking for melodic and Irish stuff but generally I will have to say I must be a roll player. I believe anyone listening to my playing would not know what is going through my mind for the end result they are hearing. So I would say to anyone wanting to play the banjo pick it the best way you know how to get the best results. Works for me anyway.

---

Laurie - thanks so much for posting this. There's more here than I had originally realized, and it both supports the premise and suggests another argument for it.

To me, the best modern players can deliver the drive and power of Scruggs without the melodic limitations incumbent in that style (Bill Monroe, upon hearing Bill Keith play, was elated that a banjo player had finally figured out how to play every note the mando or fiddle could). This is where melodics enter in.

If we listen to players like Keith, Fleck, Trischka, Kruger, Pikelny and others who are brilliantly versed in Scruggs but not limited by it, we hear accurate representation of melodies that basically don't fit within codified roll patterns. They call for different approaches with the right hand.

With many of the fiddle tunes he played, Scruggs was brilliant at IMPLYING the melody - making it sound possibly even cooler because of the notes that WEREN'T played and some of the syncopation that took their place - but it was the later generation who figured out how to actually HIT those notes. Which is better? For my part, the ability to do BOTH is pretty key. Regardless, the ability to hit whatever note we want, whenever we want it, is really the goal. Roll patterns don't get us there. The ability to control our right and left hands on demand does.

Laurie Grundy - Posted - 01/05/2018:  18:13:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by eagleisland

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurie Grundy

This topic has caused me to I analyse my playing and I realise that I do rely on rolls pretty much , because rolls and placing the melody notes within the rolls, seem to suit my thought processes and approach to picking banjo and particularly Scruggs style. For both Scruggs stuff and melodic I seek out the melody first and then fill in around the melody notes within the bars and then check to see in fact what rolls I have now made ? I also play a fair bit of two finger picking for melodic and Irish stuff but generally I will have to say I must be a roll player. I believe anyone listening to my playing would not know what is going through my mind for the end result they are hearing. So I would say to anyone wanting to play the banjo pick it the best way you know how to get the best results. Works for me anyway.

---

Laurie - thanks so much for posting this. There's more here than I had originally realized, and it both supports the premise and suggests another argument for it.

To me, the best modern players can deliver the drive and power of Scruggs without the melodic limitations incumbent in that style (Bill Monroe, upon hearing Bill Keith play, was elated that a banjo player had finally figured out how to play every note the mando or fiddle could). This is where melodics enter in.

If we listen to players like Keith, Fleck, Trischka, Kruger, Pikelny and others who are brilliantly versed in Scruggs but not limited by it, we hear accurate representation of melodies that basically don't fit within codified roll patterns. They call for different approaches with the right hand.

With many of the fiddle tunes he played, Scruggs was brilliant at IMPLYING the melody - making it sound possibly even cooler because of the notes that WEREN'T played and some of the syncopation that took their place - but it was the later generation who figured out how to actually HIT those notes. Which is better? For my part, the ability to do BOTH is pretty key. Regardless, the ability to hit whatever note we want, whenever we wan

---

I believe Earl Scruggs was brilliant at placing the melody note in just the right place for the most value and impact.  When I was learning I found it much easier to play a melodic tune because if I could whistle the tune note for note then I could find those notes on the fretboard and go ahead and play it.  I found most fiddle tunes and melodic tunes seemed to have a stream of melody notes following one after the other ...but when it came to Scruggs picking I found that there were fairly few melody notes to whistle and therefore a bit trickier to know exactly where best to put them so I had to think about my Scruggs picking more than melodic stuff.  So I had to concentrate on the best position to put those melody notes among the other notes within the bar ...then I would check to see what roll the notes may have made. 

So in those early days of learning back in the seventies and without any of today's learning aides whether it was Scruggs or melodic I guess I did approach it from a roll perspective once I had the melody under control.  And another thing .... I find that if I have practiced the the rolls containing the melody or phrase and got then firmly in my head I could sort of play by instinct and freely...I only think about the first note of the roll and the phrase rather than each note ...then I can really play them very quickly in some cases up to 170 BPM plus whereas if I think about playing each individual note individually I can barely play at 95bpm.... so yes I have to confess & say I am a roll player for sure.

Edited by - Laurie Grundy on 01/05/2018 18:46:31

Jim T - Posted - 01/05/2018:  19:32:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurie Grundy

quote:

---

Originally posted by eagleisland

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurie Grundy

This topic has caused me to I analyse my playing and I realise that I do rely on rolls pretty much , because rolls and placing the melody notes within the rolls, seem to suit my thought processes and approach to picking banjo and particularly Scruggs style. For both Scruggs stuff and melodic I seek out the melody first and then fill in around the melody notes within the bars and then check to see in fact what rolls I have now made ? I also play a fair bit of two finger picking for melodic and Irish stuff but generally I will have to say I must be a roll player. I believe anyone listening to my playing would not know what is going through my mind for the end result they are hearing. So I would say to anyone wanting to play the banjo pick it the best way you know how to get the best results. Works for me anyway.

---

Laurie - thanks so much for posting this. There's more here than I had originally realized, and it both supports the premise and suggests another argument for it.

To me, the best modern players can deliver the drive and power of Scruggs without the melodic limitations incumbent in that style (Bill Monroe, upon hearing Bill Keith play, was elated that a banjo player had finally figured out how to play every note the mando or fiddle could). This is where melodics enter in.

If we listen to players like Keith, Fleck, Trischka, Kruger, Pikelny and others who are brilliantly versed in Scruggs but not limited by it, we hear accurate representation of melodies that basically don't fit within codified roll patterns. They call for different approaches with the right hand.

With many of the fiddle tunes he played, Scruggs was brilliant at IMPLYING the melody - making it sound possibly even cooler because of the notes that WEREN'T played and some of the syncopation that took their place - but it was the later generation who figured out how to actually HIT those notes. Which is better? For my part, the ability to do BOTH is pretty key. Regardless, the ability to hit whatever note we want, whenever we wan

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I believe Earl Scruggs was brilliant at placing the melody note in just the right place for the most value and impact.  When I was learning I found it much easier to play a melodic tune because if I could whistle the tune note for note then I could find those notes on the fretboard and go ahead and play it.  I found most fiddle tunes and melodic tunes seemed to have a stream of melody notes following one after the other ...but when it came to Scruggs picking I found that there were fairly few melody notes to whistle and therefore a bit trickier to know exactly where best to put them so I had to think about my Scruggs picking more than melodic stuff.  So I had to concentrate on the best position to put those melody notes among the other notes within the bar ...then I would check to see what roll the notes may have made. 

So in those early days of learning back in the seventies and without any of today's learning aides whether it was Scruggs or melodic I guess I did approach it from a roll perspective once I had the melody under control.  And another thing .... I find that if I have practiced the the rolls containing the melody or phrase and got then firmly in my head I could sort of play by instinct and freely...I only think about the first note of the roll and the phrase rather than each note ...then I can really play them very quickly in some cases up to 170 BPM plus whereas if I think about playing each individual note individually I can barely play at 95bpm.... so yes I have to confess & say I am a roll player for sure.

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Oh my gosh..............I can't believe you admtited to being a "roll player" on this thread! LOL (It's a joke folks.......so go easy)!  

I'm old, but a fairly recent banjo student and it just amazes me to see what you folks that have been playing a long time went through in the early years to get where you are today! That's what I call dedication. I'm thankful that there's some newer methods for developing some measure of skill, since I don't have a lot of years to do this or the hearing to figure a lot of it out by myself.

I'm having fun though!

Jim

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 01/06/2018:  20:25:11

Although I play it a little different with an old timey bounce... Old Joe Clark fits very easily into three note thinking, instead of the 8 note roll.. (one of the biggys that stood out in the example posted earlier, throwing the time of each phrase, you remember)



I went down.... To old joes ..... house .never been.. there be fore..



Fair thee well... Old Joe Clark.. got ta be.. get tin home



See what I mean?? Adds the bounce and timing to get the sound required to make it Old Joe..

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 01/06/2018 20:27:38

ChuckCharles - Posted - 01/26/2018:  08:34:05

I am very glad to read that so many people struggle with the roll patterns.
When I started learning the banjo (coming from a classical guitar background) I had a very hard time with them too.
I told myself it was probably a 'blue grass thing' and since I mainly wanted to play celtic fiddle tunes jigs and reels and the like I stopped putting so much effort in practicing the rolls from the learning book.

FlyinEagle - Posted - 01/26/2018:  08:54:03

I was just thinking yesterday about how a little while back someone posted about a teacher named Lou Costanza (I think), who also shunned traditional “dogma” and had an alternate approach to rolls that seems relevant to this thread. I believe he approached rolls as 4 pairs of notes per measure, rather than the other commonly accepted patterns.

I meant to look further into his approach back then but I never did. Now I can’t remember who posted about him, and I can’t I find his webpage…

Maybe the original poster will see this and link?

alan munde - Posted - 03/11/2018:  16:47:27

I understand the frustrations of learning the roll and then not knowing how they are used. I have a chapter in Getting Into Bluegrass Banjo published by Mel Bay that is titled "Roll Logic." I have taught this material at many camps for the last several years. It is almost always my most attended offering.  Highly generalized: each roll has a location that the melody is often placed.  Learning the locations in each roll can be helpful in understanding how the rolls can be used.  This coupled with a lot of listening and studying how others do it can be revealing.

eagleisland - Posted - 03/11/2018:  19:04:48

quote:

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Originally posted by alan munde

I understand the frustrations of learning the roll and then not knowing how they are used. I have a chapter in Getting Into Bluegrass Banjo published by Mel Bay that is titled "Roll Logic." I have taught this material at many camps for the last several years. It is almost always my most attended offering.  Highly generalized: each roll has a location that the melody is often placed.  Learning the locations in each roll can be helpful in understanding how the rolls can be used.  This coupled with a lot of listening and studying how others do it can be revealing.

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Alan - I'm delighted and honored that you've weighed in on this thread. I attended one of your sessions on this topic about ten years ago. All I can say is that if other books and learning materials that place initial emphasis on 8-note roll patterns approached them the way you do, the problems many new players have in understanding rolls and how to use them would likely be greatly diminished.

alan munde - Posted - 03/12/2018:  06:48:10

Thanks so much for the kind words. Look forward to seeing you again.