eagleisland - Posted - 12/23/2017:  06:22:41

Let me start with a story. Not long after I purchased it, my first banjo went into a closet and sat untouched for more than 15 years. The reason? Rolls – or, more specifically, roll patterns, which many new players mistake for rolls.



I was a competent finger-style guitarist when I bought the banjo. I wasn’t looking for one, but I always liked the sound and the seller was a friend who needed cash. I wanted to help him out and figured that given my experience with fingerpicking the guitar, the transition to banjo would be fairly easy (it’s not, but that’s a topic best discussed elsewhere).



At the time, I lived in northern Maine. If there was another banjo picker living within 30 miles, I never knew about it. The Internet, for all practical purposes, didn’t exist yet – so there was no Skype, no YouTube, no Banjo Hangout. The only way I could find to learn was a book, which I purchased on one of my infrequent day-off trips to the Big City (Portland).



That book is still in print, and still respectfully referenced now and then on the Hangout. I’ll give no clues to the author beyond that, but I will tell you that the emphasis on practicing roll patterns as a starting point made no damned sense to me at all. After about a month or so, I gave up. The banjo went into its case. The case gathered dust.



Fast forward to the next time I picked it up. I had moved close to Portland, winter was coming on, and I needed a project. It occurred to me that I was probably in reasonable proximity to a teacher, and figured that I’d take lessons for a month or two and see if it clicked. If it didn’t, I’d sell the banjo, because I already had enough places for dust to settle.



I found a teacher. On our first encounter, he asked about my musical background. I told him about my experience as a kid with piano and guitar and drums and bass, and church choir, and musical theater and later as a wannabe singer-songwriter, and especially the part about the banjo book and how the rolls thing made no sense to me.



“Yeah,” he nodded. “Lots of people have that problem. Look, forget about those patterns. There are really only three rolls, and they’re not what most people think they are. There’s forward…” and here, he played T-I-M on strings three, two and one; “…backwards…” and here he played M-I-T on strings one, two and three; “…and if you notice, there are just three notes in those rolls, not eight. And here’s a square, like you play on your guitar.” And he played the alternating-thumb T-I-T-M – four notes total.



“So what’s the deal with all those rolls the books want you to learn?” I asked.



“For the most part, those are made up of those three things I just showed you, sometimes cut in smaller pieces and then combined,” he said. “Those basic moves get combined to make those eight-note patterns. And between you and me, I think those patterns probably cause more problems than they solve.”



That broke the log jam, and as I improved as a player, I became increasingly skeptical as to why eight-note roll patterns received so much emphasis in so many learning methods. I wasn’t practicing them, and I was progressing fast enough that my teacher booted me out after about a year (“You’ve moved beyond what I can teach you,” he said. “You need to start working with someone who’s a better player than I am.” THAT’s a teacher who puts the student first, and I’ll always be grateful to him.)



My next teacher built on what I brought in. He DID believe in practicing rolls, though mostly for working on timing, and he chuckled when I told him of my allergy to them. “Yeah, not everybody benefits from it,” he admitted. “Wait right here – I’ve got something you’ll like.” A few minutes later he came back with a photocopy of a three-part series on re-thinking rolls from the Banjo Newsletter. It was written by a guy named Jeff Kimble, published in 2004, and it expanded upon what my first teacher told me about rolls.



In addition to the three-note forward and backwards elements my first teacher discussed, Kimble suggested what he called a “Beta” roll instead of the latter – a T-M-I move that, when repeated, has all the elements of the backward roll (count it out for yourself and you’ll see). He also identified TWO-note moves – (T)humb and (F)inger (index or middle), or (F)inger and (T)humb. Put two of those together, and you’ve got your basic square patterns. And then, of course, pinches – either two or three-finger.



And that’s basically it. Kimble argued - and after I started working with this precept in mind, I came to agree - that when you look at the roots, this handful of rudiments is combined to produce nearly every so-called roll pattern ever formally codified and given a name. More importantly, it helped me further recognize and understand the moves and processes required anytime I ran across something out of the ordinary - which the best banjo playing usually is.



The naming of these patterns compounds the issue. Consider an eight-note measure involving the forward roll – a pattern, if you like. There are actually lots of ways you can make that happen. You could play two T-I-M forward rolls and a T-F, adding to eight notes; or the T-F followed by the two forward rolls; you could roll forward once, throw in the T-F and then roll forward again. Or you could play ONE note with a finger, roll T-I-M once, another finger note and then roll again (similar to what’s often called a Dillard roll) or hang the orphan note at the end. Or leave it out altogether and let that last note ring an extra half-beat.



Once you figure in the five strings and various permutations of those, each combination can produce a different sequence of notes – and thus sounds – but they’re all essentially dependent on the forward roll – the ROLL, not the pattern. And that reality stretches the bounds of the term ‘forward roll” if we limit our understanding of rolls to 8-note patterns.



Taking this further: in addition to having all those possible variants, the process of rolling forward can extend well beyond one measure – and if we’re trained to think of a forward roll as something like a 3-3-2 combination, the way so many learning methods and roll exercises present them, we’re effectively undermining one of the best ways to get that thrilling, driving banjo sound, by keeping that forward roll going well into the next measure – and not infrequently beyond that.



The analogy I like to use is this: nowadays, there are several common ways houses are built. With manufactured homes, pre-cut lumber for studs is slapped into jigs, the plates are put in place, the whole thing is fastened with pneumatic nail guns and within a few minutes you’ve got a panel. The panels are then bolted together, and with enough panels you’ve got the framing for the house.



Stick building gets the same structural result, but the components are assembled individually by folks who understand every single step of the process. They’re called carpenters. I don’t know about you, but I think it would be difficult to hang that title on the folks who assemble panels all day long in a factory.



From my perspective, reliance on codified roll patterns is the equivalent of bolting together a house from panels. The folks who build them certainly have skills, and those panels are certainly useful. But what if the design calls for something other than the way the jigs are set up? That’s when it helps to think about things like a carpenter does.



Like a MUSICIAN does.



Depending upon the learning method, you’ll frequently see anywhere from six to more than a dozen 8-note “rolls.” Sometimes you see them set up as two-measure patterns. The problems come with the fact that, when we’re taught this way, many folks either have difficulty with the relevance of these patterns at the start, because the idea behind how we’re supposed to use them isn’t yet understood. How could it be?



And possibly worse, we’re essentially trained to think that there’s a defined “roll pattern” to solve every musical equation. There isn’t. Someone with far better math skills than mine once figured out that if every possible eight-note pattern were codified – incorporating all of the possible ways of using all three fingers and all five strings – there would be in excess of 10,000 of them. Dunno about you, but that’s more than I want to imagine, let alone practice.



So should we dispense with roll patterns altogether? I’m not arguing for that. I do think they can be useful in several areas. First, they can be handy for experienced players as warmup exercises. They can certainly be useful for enhancing skills with timing if we work with a metronome. And they CAN help beginners start to develop the dexterity to send the fingers where they’re needed, when they’re needed – though I personally believe there’s a better way.



At minimum, I think it should be made clear to those beginners that this is all they’re really going to do – help them start moving the fingers. There are certainly defined patterns that do get used a LOT – that’s why these patterns got established in the first place. The square, Foggy Mountain and forward-reverse rolls come to mind – but that there are simply too many other variations to assume that patterns can ever be the be-all and end-all. In addition to patterns he played often, Earl played countless measures of brilliant music that weren’t based on 8-note patterns. There’s a reason for that.



Earl and Ralph and Don Reno didn’t study rolls, nor did they define or name them. They just figured out how to move their fingers to produce the combinations of notes and spaces they wanted to play. They weren’t thinking about patterns – they were thinking about MUSIC, and developed ways to produce that music in the most biomechanically efficient way that they could. The concept and codification of “rolls” as eight-note constructs developed years later – arguably, first showing up in the first edition of the Scruggs book in the late 1960s as others were trying to understand what Earl and his peers were doing – and, possibly, to help others understand it. But many, many fine banjo players developed without them.



Think about that. In less than fifty years, 8-note roll patterns have made the transition from unknown to dogma – and the problem with dogma is that while one faith may subscribe to a given set of precepts, others may see other paths to enlightenment. The pattern approach has become an article of faith. It unquestionably has its adherents – including people who have successfully navigated beyond its rigid pedagogy and become competent players, and no small number of teachers.



But ultimately, isn’t the MUSIC what’s really important? Get right down to it, and it’s the notes and spaces – the melody, the rhythm, the tempo – that we’re really after. None of these things are rolls, let alone roll patterns; rolls are simply the mechanism by which we produce the music – a means to an end, not the end itself. Name your favorite banjo player, and I’ll just about guarantee that he or she doesn’t think about roll patterns. He or she thinks about the notes and spaces.



I will cheerfully admit that I’ll never be a great player. For one thing, I started too late in life (I’d love to have that fifteen years back), and for another, I simply don’t have the time to practice that would be required to reach my full potential. So, if you’re wondering “who the hell is THIS guy, and what qualifies HIM to pontificate on this stuff?” you could well have a point. In my own defense, I invite you to consider Matt Patricia, the defensive coordinator of the New England Patriots. He played some college ball but wasn’t an NFL player, let alone a hall-of-famer. He did no formal study regarding how to be a coach; he was trained as an aeronautical engineer. He has three Superbowl rings.



Or, as a wonderful old Vermonter I used to know was fond of saying, “even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while.”



If the approach of drilling on roll patterns is working for you, fine – far be it from me to tell you otherwise. And if you’re working with a teacher who believes you should practice patterns, I’m not about to second-guess your teacher – they know you, and I don’t. I WILL say that I don’t ask most of my students to practice roll patterns; I found the concept too limiting as a student and still find it too limiting today as a teacher. I’d far rather students develop those right-hand skills within the context of playing actual music. With this approach, as long as they’re practicing at all, they DO practice rolling skills – they just don’t do so as a standalone element. And they do become better players.



As the old saying goes, Your Mileage May Vary. You can disagree with this premise; I've little doubt many of you will. But I do invite you to think about it. From experience, I do believe that it’s more effective to understand the rudiments – that tiny handful of moves described by Kimble – of what goes into each measure of music and practice THAT than it is to spend extensive periods of time working on standardized patterns that produce approximations of one. I believe that the time spent practicing the playing of music itself is more rewarding and useful than time spent practicing what amounts to a mechanical skill.

Edited by - eagleisland on 12/23/2017 09:43:07

BobbyE - Posted - 12/23/2017:  06:36:05

I am with you Skip. My experience was when I started there were all these 8 note rolls that we were to learn and then when you went to the tab of a particular song those rolls didn't seem to fit at all. When I learned that they were just patterns of movement that could be broken up into the different roll patterns (rolls) in order to get more of the melody notes into the song, I breathed a sigh of relief. I see many beginning players who state with pride, "I learned all of the rolls....." to which I wonder, "okay, what are you going to do with them now?"

mikebanjo - Posted - 12/23/2017:  07:00:23

I think the reliance on rolls got momentum because it is a quicker way to get a beginner started playing the banjo and it sounded to most that the better players were just playing a combination of rolls, right? Eventually some of us realize those rolls were made up of notes which had alphabetical names and specific identifiable sounds that could be reproduced at various parts of the neck. From there some of us went on to reading standard musical notation and reproducing musical sounds and songs that are not made by just playing rolls. Known as evolution of a banjo player education on his instrument.

chuckv97 - Posted - 12/23/2017:  07:15:15

Good essay, Skip. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an instruction book, good or poor, banjo or guitar, that didn’t delve right into playing a song or fragment thereof after the first introductory lesson. Yep - play music, save the exercise drills for later.

waystation - Posted - 12/23/2017:  07:24:27

I'm totally in agreement with you, Skip. I've been teaching this way for over 20 years. Eight note rolls are very constraining and once you start thinking in that way it's difficult to coherently play a melody, which may change many times before that eight note roll is over. Your first teacher was right on, but I'd go farther - the third pattern is any two alternating fingers, just as the forward and backward rolls can start on any of the three fingers. TIM, IMT and MTI are the same roll, but each one allows a different rhythm and emphasis; people think of alternating patterns as TITM, but MIMT also works, as in Alan Munde's "Deputy Dalton". In fact, so does MITI, where the alternating finger is on the 2nd and 4th notes of the pattern. Combine this with the fact that any of the three fingers can carry the melody note, and you have endless possibilities just within each two or three note grouping. Each has a different rhythmic effect, but they all share one of two characteristics: something repeats every third note, or something repeats every second note.



Break rolls down into these two and three note groupings, and it's much easier to think about playing melodies.

Edited by - waystation on 12/23/2017 07:27:26

RB-1 - Posted - 12/23/2017:  07:42:23

Well put, Skip!

By the way, I think we're long overdue re-thinking most, if not all, dogmas.... ;-)

hicotton - Posted - 12/23/2017:  07:56:14

Great article and logical discussion on evaluating one of the holy writs in bluegrass banjo, Skip!
When I started 15 years ago, I had a gift banjo that I didn't know how to even tune and a popular dvd that proposed if you learn these 8-note roll patterns and three basic chord shapes, well presto - you're a banjo player! I wasted months on that approach before realizing I wasn't producing anything that resembled music, much less a song that anyone could recognize. I just kept waiting for the magic to happen, which of course, it never did. Hhhhmmmm...sorta like waiting up for Santa.
For me, the roll patterns were good for learning muscle memory, practicing timing, and learning to coordinate right-hand picking with left-hand chord changes, but when asked now, I usually have no idea what roll patterns that I play in most songs. Some, like Grandfather's Clock, are clearly forward roll heavy, but most songs are not nearly as easy to analyze.
Again great article - love the ones that make us think.
clay

stanleytone - Posted - 12/23/2017:  07:59:54

well it seems that roll patterns help the beginner get his right hand in shape for whatever may come after. I mean, even Bela started out doing the same thing we all did when we started

Texasbanjo - Posted - 12/23/2017:  08:15:22

Excellent post, Skip, wish I could have said it that well.

There's nothing wrong with learning rolls, but.... learning to play the melody should be first before rolls, then integrate the rolls or roll patterns, into the melody. (Actually, learning to count should probably be first, but that's getting into music theory).

When I first started out, it was like Skip said: no internet, no teacher, no video, one book basically. Rolls were "king". That's the way I learned and I was tab dependent for years because I didn't understand that melody came first, not rolls. I tried fitting the melody into a roll and lots of times (most of the time) it just didn't work. When I stopped thinking "roll" and started thinking "melody", my playing improved dramatically and I lost any desire to look at tab.

eagleisland - Posted - 12/23/2017:  08:27:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by waystation

I'm totally in agreement with you, Skip. I've been teaching this way for over 20 years. Eight note rolls are very constraining and once you start thinking in that way it's difficult to coherently play a melody, which may change many times before that eight note roll is over.

---

Wow - I'm flattered. For those of you who don't know him, Rich is one of those guys who fits into that "best banjo players you probably never heard of" category.

rickhayes - Posted - 12/23/2017:  08:41:04

Skip I'll agree with you and all of the others who have already done so. I'm not an accomplished picker nor will I ever be. I never took lessons. I simply loved the sound of the picking so I tried the best I could to emulate what I was hearing. I never even knew what a forward roll or any of the others were, nor have I ever practiced any of them. I just tried to pick notes in a rhythm that fit around the melody as best I could.

yatesuser - Posted - 12/23/2017:  08:51:38

 Right on the money

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 12/23/2017:  09:01:32

saulsmanb - Posted - 12/23/2017:  09:09:58

Skip
Your post makes some very good points about rolls, especially the 8 note roll.

I think there is a value in breaking down right hand technique with the ultimate goal of expressing the music you want. (I know you’re not disagreeing with that.) The interesting question is how best to develop right hand technique?

Peter Pardee developed an exercise that incorporates 24 four note/finger combinations in one activity. The goal is to be able to play it fluently and then develop the ability to accent any note within the exercise at will.
When I was working hard to improve, I found it very helpful.

All the best.
Brian Saulsman

kentr - Posted - 12/23/2017:  09:11:41

That was well said Skip,

I am able to understand what you said more clearly because I've got the booklet
by Jeff Kimble right here in my hand.
After reading it a few times, chewing on it, and then trying it out, it started to make
a lot of sense.

It turns out that I am a very slow learner. And I used to think of myself as being
really quick to pick things up. Time has proven just how slow, but that does not stop me from enjoying listening.

The main learnable help from Jeff Kimble's "new approach" for me was the "unlocking"
of how to understand reading tab, and fitting the small pieces together.

disclaimer: This "approach" has helped my understanding and playing, even been
eye opening, but has done very little to change my mind about "what" I choose to
learn to play, how it "fits in" with the established standards, or how it is received by
others.

That's OK too, and does not stop me from enjoying listening to true bluegrass.

Culloden - Posted - 12/23/2017:  09:19:14

Well said, Skip. I think it is long past time we rethink the practice of learning rolls. As you so well put it, Earl, Ralph, and Don were not thinking about rolls they were thinking about music. Trying to master rolls is probably a leading reason why so many people give up trying to learn the banjo after only a short time.
My mentor, Troy Brammer, once told me that if you concentrate on the left hand the right hand will follow. I have found that to be the case for many years now. Learning rolls should not become more important than learning musical phrasing, theory, etc.

eagleisland - Posted - 12/23/2017:  09:24:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by kentr

I am able to understand what you said more clearly because I've got the booklet

by Jeff Kimble right here in my hand.

After reading it a few times, chewing on it, and then trying it out, it started to make

a lot of sense.

---

Kent, thanks for posting that - I had a hunch I'd spelled Kimble's name wrong and your post allowed me to verify the spelling (corrected in the original) and add the publication date for the series.

RevSpyder - Posted - 12/23/2017:  09:35:45

Well this is one of the most encouraging posts I've read in a long time. I have found the whole roll thing to be completely confusing, as in how do I make music with those blasted things? So I found 2 finger thumb lead worked really well for me. Then I started using some alternating thumb 3 finger patterns, and a couple of forward and backward rolls that just seemed to fit in. Disclaimer: I play banjo to back up singing mostly, with maybe the occasional simple (really simple) picking break. Anyway, I had already decided the heck with rolls, and I'm never going to be able to figure out how to play a melody with 'em.

The other encouraging thing was a short video I found last night by Bela Fleck, and he basically has only two techniques he's teaching as a foundation: alternating thumb roll and TITI on the same string. Simple. Flexible. youtube.com/watch?v=BrVzjFgfMck

And Bruno, I couldn't agree more about dogmas. Of any kind.

Tractor1 - Posted - 12/23/2017:  09:48:21

I use forward roll as lazy fill in licks ,forward type fingering stolen from it ,is a good energy boost also. I have always been criticized by some for not putting it's importance ahead of the true melody .Lately I have leaned that way a bit more ,but not much especially on the first break.
Though I learned all the rolls from the book,after learning a few Earl arrangements I went more into square licking complex melodies so my listeners would actually recognize things a bit more.Good Earl picking would blow me out the door with wow factor and more talent,but my head like a rock disease stayed put.I just could not get a'' hold'' on where those great Scruggs players were coming from.I would not suggest anyone follow suit.One thing in my corner is all the good ones put doing it your own way high on the list

warpdrive - Posted - 12/23/2017:  09:55:57

Skip,
Your "Wisdom" in a sea of hamburgers(including especially myself)
You sir, ARE A STEAK!
Warp!

monstertone - Posted - 12/23/2017:  09:58:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by hicotton

Great article and logical discussion on evaluating one of the holy writs in bluegrass banjo, Skip!

roll patterns were good for learning muscle memory, practicing timing, and learning to coordinate right-hand picking with left-hand chord changes

clay

---

Like most of us that have commented here, my beginnings preceded the internet by decades. And although tablature existed at the time, it was not widely accepted by music academics. Nowhere in any of the beginning instruction manuals I referenced, was there any mention of "muscle memory" let alone rolls or patterns thereof.  With the exception of two, (you all can figure that out) the primary focus of all, was learning to play music. The fact that you were attempting this on a five string banjo was secondary. Aside from simple songs thought to be appropriate for the five string banjo, were short, often no more than eight bar lines referred to as 'Etude in C major, or whatever.

Although a lot of people tried to define Scruggs style picking by formulating rules, Earl was not opposed to trying anything that worked. Pat Cloud tells his students the first rule of playing banjo is, there are no rules. You get the note any way you can. But that's a horse of another color.

Edited by - monstertone on 12/23/2017 10:01:11

waystation - Posted - 12/23/2017:  10:35:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by eagleisland

---

Wow - I'm flattered. For those of you who don't know him, Rich is one of those guys who fits into that "best banjo players you probably never heard of" category.

---

The flattery is all mine, Skip. You've started a really valuable conversation here. I've always found it funny that when I introduce "square" patterns to beginners after I've shown them a couple of tunes made entirely of forward rolls and quarter notes, they find those patterns very foreign. Just the opposite of most methods that start based on alternating thumb rolls, where people hang on to the quarter note beat emphasis as if they'll sink out of sight if they lose it. The same thing happens with eight note rolls - the downbeat becomes the most important thing in the world, and using smaller note groups to achieve natural phrasing is much harder to understand. It's easier to teach syncopation first and then introduce square phrasing than the other way around.

5StringNewbie - Posted - 12/23/2017:  18:32:26

Skip, thanks for posting this. I too struggled with eight note rolls and almost gave up the banjo entirely because I couldn't bring myself to practice something that never seemed to fit any song or melody. I could not play a forward roll exercise without mixing TMI or reverse into it. But once you follow the melody it's much easier. Not many songs seem to use an uninterrupted forward roll anyway.

5StringNewbie - Posted - 12/23/2017:  18:48:42

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but Rich, could you elaborate on your comment a little for the, ahem, musically challenged among us?

Boadicea - Posted - 12/23/2017:  22:42:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by RevSpyder

The other encouraging thing was a short video I found last night by Bela Fleck, and he basically has only two techniques he's teaching as a foundation: alternating thumb roll and TITI on the same string. Simple. Flexible. youtube.com/watch?v=BrVzjFgfMck

---

The problem with this - is that as I am in a country which doesn't have a lot of banjo players, so you are all talking from a level of assumed knowledge that I don't have.

Bela Fleck is out of my league - because I can't see what "simple" rolls he is doing, and when he plays up and down the neck, part of that is literally done off camera.

I know what a slide and a hammer on is, so that is good. 

So what you are complaining about - things not being accessible is actually being replicated in this thread. I blogged my frustrations here: banjohangout.org/blog/35652

Maybe I am too new as a Scruggs player to be posting on this forum, but I am finding it most frustrating. 

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 12/24/2017:  03:35:32

Skip,

Here is a question I had for Jack Hatfield and his kind response. IMO Jack has been brilliant in his organization and teaching. Thinking of the parameters he attributed to Scruggs helped me out a lot. It is much in line with your thinking:

From Jack Hatfield: 7/30/10



2. (my question) Scruggs invented most of the licks but he was also a very melody oriented player. Do you think most of his licks originated as a way to state specific melody notes at one time in a song?



Jack's answer:

"Yes. It is very simple: Earl was trying to render a melody using the thumb on the melody notes as often as possible while maintaining a steady stream of eighth notes and not repeating a digit on consecutive eighth notes. These three parameters resulted in the four or five basic rolls he created. IMO, he never even conceptualized the rolls as static building blocks of his style until others such as Bill Keith attempted to put it down on paper (tab) and coined the term “roll”. By then it was already innate with Earl. He just tried to play the melody with the stronger thumb, and the signature licks and finger sequences (rolls) that resulted became his vocabulary (“I call it his Lick-cabulary”) unconsciously.



All the more reason to set as a goal thinking the melody instead of thinking about the rolls and licks and memorized arrangement. If you have practiced the licks and rolls enough, REALLY ingrained them...they will appear on your fingers in some unplanned order to render the melody you intend, and you will not be ridden with a string of errors because you made one mistake in a memorized arrangement. Playing memorized arrangements by rote is a starting place, (in truth, many lifelong players never get beyond this) but it is like a chain...when you break one link the whole thing ceases to function. If you think the melody instead of the memorized arrangement, you may play it differently every time, but there are no TIMING errors which is catastrophic, and few if any dropped notes. "

Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 12/24/2017 03:36:49

kentr - Posted - 12/24/2017:  04:35:04

Hi Kate,

Godday mate,

and in your own words, relax.

Looking at the tab world though the eyes of the Kimbal approach, can help.



It's 3 am, west USA time, and I woke up with this thread running wild in my head.



The part of the Kimbal approach that cleared up so much of my own confusion

about "which roll", and trying to remember the name of a roll, and then how to

make it fit when learning some song by ear, etc, is that Jeff breaks things down

to such a simple, and natural way, even I could understand and use it.



And, it follows the natural flow of the fingers.



first T I M. Relax , and hit the strings, use the 5th, then 2ond, then 1st.

Then repeat. and again. and again.

Feels natural, easy and "doable"



even if you don't know it yet, you've just done a "forward roll",

and, that "pattern" shows up in tab as a "signature" , like a line going up,

and can be seen, repeated, and recognized. "An ascending diagonal of three numbers"

a group of 3.

Building block 1



2ond, Relax, hit the same strings, but with the T on 5th, M on 1st, then I on 2ond.

T M I.

Jeff called that a "beta" roll, or the 2ond building block.

Shows up on tab with a "tent" signature. Again easily recognized.

And feels natural.



Even when different strings are used in a song, the " tent" signature is still there.



then comes another"building block", the T F or thumb-finger. A building block of 2.

Shows up in tab with 2 "signatures, usually two ascending,

or horizontal , as in a Single String style.

T I, or T M, it's still thumb-finger.



This reflects the right hand only.

If there is an ascending line, with a slide or hammer-on in it, It might look

like 4 notes, and take up that space in a measure, but still is played with TIM,

and can be seen as such when looked for.





so, what do ya have so far?

One TIM, one TMI, and one TF.

Which can be used to assemble one 8 beat measure.



I have seen that "pattern called other things, like a "forward-backward" or

whatever, but to break it down to TIM-TMI-TF is simlpe to see, and simple to play.



Then mix it up.TIM-TMI-TF, TMI-TF-TIM, TF-TIM-TMI. Still adds up to 8 per measure.



"After one learns to spot the signatures, it is impossible to look at tab and not see them. With a little Practice, it becomes unnecessary to "outline" them except for

the most unfamiliar or complicated phrases."



It's like learning to spell the word, together,

Broken down into;    to - get - her,   that's three easy words shoved together to make one word.



Yes, But.

How about the notes that don't fit in with the "patterns" ??



Jeff called them a "group of one"

Often expressed as a 1/4 note, in a sea of 1/8 th notes, it stands out after the other patterns are identified.



A series of 1/4 note pinches can be thought of as a series of Groups of One.

Like a common lead in pinching the 1st, 2ond, and 5th strings, while

fretting the second string on frets 1,2, and 3.



there is more in Jeff Kimbal's booklet, but I' already used too many words.



It's my hope that what I have repeated from Jeff's booklet, can help identify

easily recognizable elements, which can explain, standardize, and simplify

learning.



Sorry, there is no address given, I don't even remember where I bought this

booklet.

Merry Pickin's

Edited by - kentr on 12/24/2017 04:47:38

RevSpyder - Posted - 12/24/2017:  06:28:47

"Earl was trying to render a melody using the thumb on the melody notes as often as possible while maintaining a steady stream of eighth notes and not repeating a digit on consecutive eighth notes."

Well, Eureka Ken! It's closer to 2 finger thumb lead then, at least as far as how to play the melody. I never could figure out how to play a melody with rolls. All the emphasis on rolls has just completely discouraged me, and every 3 finger instruction I have tried (which is limited, of course) starts with rolls. So I never got any further than rolls, rolls, rolls, which wasn't very interesting musically, so I went on to other techniques like 2FTL so I could actually make music. I've been looking for this one tidbit for months, and here it is, clearly put.

Thanks a whole bunch for this explanation.

Tommy5 - Posted - 12/24/2017:  10:52:57

Rolls are just for practice, a way to practice and concentrate on timing, tone,speed,then move on to licks, left hand techniques,tunes, back up ,improvising tunes, you need to work on all this stuff, too much roll work without enough left hand leads to mechanical playing,it’s all part of the process.

RevSpyder - Posted - 12/24/2017:  11:38:50

I studied classical piano as a kid, and scales were the bane of my youth. I understand they're helpful for the reasons you mentioned, but first get me playing some fun music, then add the other stuff. Otherwise, it's dull, dry, boring, and MakesMeWannaQuit. Which I did as soon as I could whine my parents into it. First couple of years I just kept hoping things would get better, and although I was playing some music, it was music that felt like exercise, not like play. Similarly, rolls are the bane of my old age.

It's like playing football (or any other sport, I guess). First, you have fun throwing the ball, running with it, chasing the others around. You don't start a kid with weight training and all the other tough but necessary stuff to get your body in shape for competitive sports. Fun first, which then motivates you to do the other things because you naturally want to get better.

There must be teachers out there (for me, that would be online or DVDs) who start you off with music to get you playing (in every sense of the word), and then give you the exercises so that you can improve. Music first, exercises later.

kentr - Posted - 12/24/2017:  13:53:54

I remember watching Earl on a tape/DVD where he was explaining what he did,
and was saying something about using the next available finger for the next
needed note, not the finger just used, to keep the flow going.
some times this means the thumb and index finger will cross, the index on the 4th
string, then the thumb on the 3rd.
To explain that with "roll patterns" only can be confusing.

While I'm not a teacher, and still need lots of help, I have learned this.
While the Jeff Kimbal "New Approach" can really help reading tab, learning to play it,
and get the fingers "rolling", It will not help with learning how to take what you've
learned and making music.

My thought is that complete package of learning rolls, or picking patterns,
and reading tab/learning songs/solos and licks is just a "building block" of it's
own, added to the mix when making music. Lots of ways to say that.

Pete Wernick has some methods, classes and DVDs that put jamming skills before
learning the harder parts, and is worth looking up if interested.

thanks again Pete for telling me with care and taste that my playing was NOT what
you or your friends thought was cool.
I've thought of that a lot in the past years.
while it did not change my mind about what I was playing much, it did help me to understand what I was doing was by my own choice, not just because I could not learn.
Yes, I'm still leaving spaces, and using that tag that "not everybody is using",
and I'm OK with that.

Dave1climber - Posted - 12/24/2017:  14:31:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by RevSpyder

I studied classical piano as a kid, and scales were the bane of my youth. I understand they're helpful for the reasons you mentioned, but first get me playing some fun music, then add the other stuff. Otherwise, it's dull, dry, boring, and MakesMeWannaQuit. Which I did as soon as I could whine my parents into it. First couple of years I just kept hoping things would get better, and although I was playing some music, it was music that felt like exercise, not like play. Similarly, rolls are the bane of my old age.



It's like playing football (or any other sport, I guess). First, you have fun throwing the ball, running with it, chasing the others around. You don't start a kid with weight training and all the other tough but necessary stuff to get your body in shape for competitive sports. Fun first, which then motivates you to do the other things because you naturally want to get better.



There must be teachers out there (for me, that would be online or DVDs) who start you off with music to get you playing (in every sense of the word), and then give you the exercises so that you can improve. Music first, exercises later.

---

RevSpyder

You may be well past this stage of playing, but it may be worth looking at this topic:

banjohangout.org/topic/331015

cjam - Posted - 12/24/2017:  14:47:36

Very interesting article. We should always be questioning the 'rules'.

RevSpyder - Posted - 12/24/2017:  16:10:51

RevSpyder

You may be well past this stage of playing, but it may be worth looking at this topic:

banjohangout.org/topic/331015

---

---

Hey, Dave -- thanks for this. I'm not a bluegrass player, nor do I want to go down that path, but: there's a lot to be learned from bluegrass techniques, things that I can use in my own playing, and I'll never forget Coach Lombardi's talk to his team after a disastrous performance. He held up a football, looked at the players, and announced: "This is a football." So I never mind going back to basics, there's usually a lot left to learn. No time to go over it tonight, but I've bookmarked this and I will definitely spend some quality time with Jim's lessons.

Old Hickory - Posted - 12/27/2017:  20:48:13

While I totally accept that Earl (and the earliest players who taught themselves from his recordings) never thought of "rolls" as the basic units of banjo picking, I find it difficult to believe that they never became aware at some point that they were in fact using repeatable right hand patterns.  I don't necessarily mean the 8-note, full measure, patterns that have been thoroughly explored in another current discussion,  but rather the basic units T-I-M, M-I-T and T-I-T-M.

I think one way Scruggs plays the B part of Cripple Creek is nothing but T-I-T-M broken up with some pinches. If he had just been going after melody, he might have picked something more random, some other way of filling around and between the melody notes. But we see a repeated pattern. He had to have seen it, too. You can't listen to the B part of Don Reno's Dixie Breakdown and say that you honestly believe he wasn't aware of and thinking about the T-I-M-I pattern.  He only does it 24 times in a row.  

I find the concept of two-finger units (T-F, F-T) a good way to think of banjo picking at a sub-molecular level. But my understanding of Earl's intentional effort and eventual achievement requires thinking of three fingers as the basic unit.  I'm certain I've read of Earl telling how, as a child, he was already using thumb and index and specifically working on getting his middle finger into the act.  I think Reuben might have been the tune he was working on.  When the breakthrough finally happened, he realized he had been using the middle finger unconsciously and shouted his delight to his older brother.

When I look at how often Earl plays T-I-M and T-I-T-M, it's hard for me to believe that he wasn't eventually aware of those finger movements as identifiable and repeatable patterns.

I learned to pick too many years ago to remember how I got the ability to usually hit whatever string I need.  I have to admit, some of my habits are so ingrained and my right hand sometimes so stubborn that there some things I can't make myself do. That is, I can't always easily make a finger pick the string I'd like, so I do a work around.  Since I'm not a teacher, I'm not in a position to say whether learning and practicing 8-note roll patterns is bad for a player's development.

And so what if Earl didn't think of rolls?  Aware of them or not, he developed them. He used them. He just didn't name them or create a means of communicating and teaching what he was doing. We have Bill Keith to thank for that. (And I believe Ira Gitlin to thank for the reminder in that other discussion)  The then-un-named patterns became obvious to him either before or during his transcribing Earl's solos into tabs that became the core of the Scruggs book. Thanks in turn to that book, the rest of us gained a very useful way to think about, comprehend, learn and practice the essential elements of Scruggs style picking.

pcfive - Posted - 12/29/2017:  16:34:57

I think some people need structure and guidelines, while others don't. For me, I could not possibly just think about playing music, without any guidelines. I have to think in terms of repeating patterns, so I think about roll patterns a lot, and practice them and use them.

Maybe if you have been playing for 30 years the patterns have become ingrained so you don't have to think about them?

One reason I think about 8 note (or 16 note) roll patterns is it helps me escape playing 3 note rolls, which would make the timing wrong.

Maybe I am doing this all wrong, but it seems to work ok for me.

eagleisland - Posted - 12/29/2017:  17:19:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I think some people need structure and guidelines, while others don't. For me, I could not possibly just think about playing music, without any guidelines. I have to think in terms of repeating patterns, so I think about roll patterns a lot, and practice them and use them.



Maybe if you have been playing for 30 years the patterns have become ingrained so you don't have to think about them?



One reason I think about 8 note (or 16 note) roll patterns is it helps me escape playing 3 note rolls, which would make the timing wrong.



Maybe I am doing this all wrong, but it seems to work ok for me.

---

Like I said, if it's working for you, have at it. But there IS such a thing as paralysis by analysis. There comes a time when we realize that working on the mechanics will only get us so far, and we have to let things flow.

Let me give you an analogy. When we learned to drive, we were conscious of every move. Open door. Sit down. Seat belt on. Left foot on brake. Insert key. Right foot over, but not on, gas pedal. Turn key. Listen for start. A bit of gas if it needs it. Listen for engine. Look around. Shift to reverse. Back out, turn wheel, apply brake. Shift to drive. Turn wheel. Down driveway. Brake. Look both ways. Apply gas, turn wheel, move forward. Apply brake at stop sign, look both ways, apply gas, etc..

We still do all those things, but we do it without that conscious thought. That's because we've done it so many times that we don't need the uppermost level of our brains to make those conscious decisions anymore. They're still being made, but at deeper levels of our brains, where we don't worry about them.

Playing an instrument is very similar. You joined the Hangout two years before I did. I''m not saying we don't need to practice the basics, but your posts here suggest that you're still largely focused on exercises intended to help beginners over the hump. That's what roll patterns are supposed to do, though the original post explains why I think they're overblown. Meantime, what are you doing to get beyond that? When are you going to start letting music flow?

Edited by - eagleisland on 12/29/2017 17:20:26

pcfive - Posted - 12/29/2017:  17:24:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by eagleisland

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I think some people need structure and guidelines, while others don't. For me, I could not possibly just think about playing music, without any guidelines. I have to think in terms of repeating patterns, so I think about roll patterns a lot, and practice them and use them.



Maybe if you have been playing for 30 years the patterns have become ingrained so you don't have to think about them?



One reason I think about 8 note (or 16 note) roll patterns is it helps me escape playing 3 note rolls, which would make the timing wrong.



Maybe I am doing this all wrong, but it seems to work ok for me.

---

Like I said, if it's working for you, have at it. But there IS such a thing as paralysis by analysis. There comes a time when we realize that working on the mechanics will only get us so far, and we have to let things flow.

Let me give you an analogy. When we learned to drive, we were conscious of every move. Open door. Sit down. Seat belt on. Left foot on brake. Insert key. Right foot over, but not on, gas pedal. Turn key. Listen for start. A bit of gas if it needs it. Listen for engine. Look around. Shift to reverse. Back out, turn wheel, apply brake. Shift to drive. Turn wheel. Down driveway. Brake. Look both ways. Apply gas, turn wheel, move forward. Apply brake at stop sign, look both ways, apply gas, etc..

We still do all those things, but we do it without that conscious thought. That's because we've done it so many times that we don't need the uppermost level of our brains to make those conscious decisions anymore. They're still being made, but at deeper levels of our brains, where we don't worry about them.

Playing an instrument is very similar. You joined the Hangout two years before I did. I''m not saying we don't need to practice the basics, but your posts here suggest that you're still largely focused on exercises intended to help beginners over the hump. That's what roll patterns are supposed to do, though the original post explains why I think they're overblown. Meantime, what are you doing to get beyond that? When are you going to start letting music flow?

 

---

I didn't mean to say that all I do is practice roll patterns and exercises. I also spend a lot of time playing music, with other people or alone, or with youtube. I play backup and I improvise lead breaks. As far as I know, I do everything we are "supposed" to be doing.

It does NOT seem to me that metronome practice and roll patterns are causing me any damage, that I know of. I definitely have a sense of improving, based on recording myself every day.

pcfive - Posted - 12/29/2017:  17:28:32

I also want to mention that metronome roll practice helped me straighten out my tone and timing. I had trouble with those for many years, but eventually got to the point where I like how I sound.

There is still A LOT of room for improvement, so I plan to keep on practicing this way at least for a while.

I also decided to branch out a little into melodic and single string.

But one thing I am pretty sure of -- I can't just simply play music. That is not me. I need some kind of structure and guidelines to fit the music into.

eagleisland - Posted - 12/29/2017:  17:31:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

---

I didn't mean to say that all I do is practice roll patterns and exercises. I also spend a lot of time playing music, with other people or alone, or with youtube. I play backup and I improvise lead breaks. As far as I know, I do everything we are "supposed" to be doing.

It does NOT seem to me that metronome practice and roll patterns are causing me any damage, that I know of. I definitely have a sense of improving, based on recording myself every day.

 

---

I didn't say they would damage you. I am asking you: are they your best way forward?

eagleisland - Posted - 12/29/2017:  17:40:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

But one thing I am pretty sure of -- I can't just simply play music. That is not me. I need some kind of structure and guidelines to fit the music into.

---

Fair enough. Just be aware that bluegrass banjo is a highly improvisational instrument and style that requires a lot of spontaneity and on-the-fly adaptation. It requires development of a feel for the music itself that rudiments and tabs simply can't provide. If structure and guidelines are essential, you may have a steeper challenge ahead of you than you realize.

Classical musicians who play outside the lines are called "unemployed." Bluegrass, jazz and rock players who have figured out how to do it effectively are called geniuses.

pcfive - Posted - 12/29/2017:  17:49:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by eagleisland

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

But one thing I am pretty sure of -- I can't just simply play music. That is not me. I need some kind of structure and guidelines to fit the music into.

---

Fair enough. Just be aware that bluegrass banjo is a highly improvisational instrument and style that requires a lot of spontaneity and on-the-fly adaptation. It requires development of a feel for the music itself that rudiments and tabs simply can't provide. If structure and guidelines are essential, you may have a steeper challenge ahead of you than you realize.

Classical musicians who play outside the lines are called "unemployed." Bluegrass, jazz and rock players who have figured out how to do it effectively are called geniuses.

---

I do a lot of improvising. I already said, as far as I know I do everything we are "supposed" to be doing. I seldom use tabs, I go to public and private jams, I play in a small group. I play backup most of the time, and backup requires constant improvising. I play lead breaks also, which of course are improvised.

I do NOT think we have to chose between being creative and being structured. I, personally, can't just plunge in and play without any conceptual structure. However, when we are playing it all goes by so fast that we can't analyze it consciously. The conscious analysis was done before.

pcfive - Posted - 12/29/2017:  17:51:52

"Bluegrass, jazz and rock players who have figured out how to do it effectively are called geniuses."

I am not hoping to be called a genius. I am just trying to play music that sounds good, that people might want to hear. I would rather keep it simple and structured than constantly experiment.

eagleisland - Posted - 12/29/2017:  18:10:23

Follow your bliss, pcfive. Your responses are pretty much proving my point about it being dogma.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 12/29/2017:  18:27:01

Here is what Scruggs said about “rolls”.

On three-finger style picking

"It's a little misleading to say three fingers. It's actually two fingers, middle and index finger, and your thumb, and it's kind of — some of the rolls will go, if you number your thumb one, the index two and your middle finger three, it's like a one-two-three roll, over and over. But to do a tune, it's like trying to say every word with the exact same amount of syllables in the word. You've got to alternate the rolls some to make the tune flow."

On coming up with his style of playing

"I was in what we called the front room with a banjo one day, and I was in the mode where if somebody had asked me what was I thinking about — I bet you've been in that mode yourself — you couldn't tell them what you was thinking about. You was just kind of sitting there, and I was picking the banjo, and I was playing a tune that I still play today called 'Reuben.' And when I realized what I was doing, I was playing the way that I play now. It was like having a dream and waking up, you was actually playing the tune. So that was the mode I was in and what I was doing when I learned exactly what I'm doing today."

Here is what Bill Keith wrote about Scruggs and included some Scruggs quotes. (this is what Jack Hatfield was saying)

“Work on the exercises consisted of isolating the important 'licks' and right-hand patterns and presenting them in short repeatable phrases. It was at that time when these patterns were named -- I suggested the names "forward roll", "backward roll", "reverse roll", and "alternating thumb". Not long ago I ran across this bit of history on Bill Palmer's website (billpalmer.com): "When I went to visit Earl in his home in Madison TN back in 1963, I asked him what he called a certain roll, because I wanted to use the "official Earl Scruggs name" for it. Bear in mind that this was before "Earl Scruggs and the 5-string Banjo" was published. He said, "I never heard of a roll until Bill Keith showed me all of those tablatures of my tunes he had taken off my records. I just play the melody with my thumb or index finger and fill in the gaps with whatever is left over." Bill Palmer also adds: "The teaching tape that Earl did was done to a script Bill Keith wrote for him." frobbi.org/billkeith/keithbho.html

Note: "I never heard of a roll until Bill Keith showed me all of those tablatures of my tunes he had taken off my records. I just play the melody with my thumb or index finger and fill in the gaps with whatever is left over."

Ken

ps sorry for the bold, that is what I copied it from had.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 12/29/2017:  18:35:26

As a point of conversation a possible thought might be that a person always needing structure and guidelines beyond the melody might never know that they are in a straight jacket.

the fingers can only go 2 ways. forwards, back or alternate. The trick as I see it is getting a finger  on the right note at the right time and then let it go where it might till the next note of the story comes up.

ken

waystation - Posted - 12/29/2017:  18:51:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

Skip,

Here is a question I had for Jack Hatfield and his kind response... Scruggs invented most of the licks but he was also a very melody oriented player. Do you think most of his licks originated as a way to state specific melody notes at one time in a song?



Jack's answer (edited by me):

"Yes. It is very simple: Earl was trying to render a melody using the thumb on the melody notes as often as possible while maintaining a steady stream of eighth notes and not repeating a digit on consecutive eighth notes.

---

I agree with Jack on the second half of his statement. One of the things I tell all my beginning students in lesson one is this: the two basic rules of bluegrass banjo are: don't repeat a finger or a string on consecutive eighth notes. (I do mention that rules are made to be broken.) However, I always thought the idea of the using the thumb for as many melody notes as possible misinterpreted what's actually going on.

Look at how many strings each of the three right hand fingers cover. The middle finger lives almost entirely one string: the first, although it is rarely used on the second. The index finger plays the second and third strings. The thumb is commonly used on all the strings except the first. Further, if a note is on the second or third string and both the thumb and index could be used without playing consecutive notes with the same finger, it's almost always preferable to use the thumb.

That means any melody note that appears on the second, third, fourth or fifth strings is most likely to be played with the thumb - not as a matter of style, but of statistics. This is important to think about because you don't want to think you have to force melody onto the thumb. It will just end up there, most of the time, and when it doesn't, there's no problem and nothing to fix.

Jim T - Posted - 12/29/2017:  19:12:08

Note: "I never heard of a roll until Bill Keith showed me all of those tablatures of my tunes he had taken off my records. I just play the melody with my thumb or index finger and fill in the gaps with whatever is left over."

Reading this makes me think that there is a natural logic that occurs when one fills in the "gaps". That natural logic, like it or not, is that the "whatever is leftover" is one of the rolls be they forward, backward, reverse, square, or whatever.  Maybe Earl didn't think of them that way, but he sure seemed to do them!

Jim

waystation - Posted - 12/29/2017:  20:00:59

There's been a fair amount of discussion in this thread about TITM as one of the basic finger sequences (I don't want to call them rolls). I don't think that's true, and I'll warn you that I'm about to launch into a long-winded post explaining why. But to get there, I want to talk about two of the traditional "rolls" and how they illustrate the confining effect of thinking about specific finger patterns beyond the most basic: three finger forward, three finger backward, and two finger alternating.

First, let's look at the classic eight-note forward roll. It breaks down into basic patterns as (TIM)(TIM)(TM): 3, 3, and 2 note groups. The reason the last group is shortened to two notes is to force the repeating group to be exactly a measure in length - easy to play and think about, but the opposite of the syncopated feel at the core of the bluegrass banjo sound. But that's a separate discussion, so let's move on to roll #2.

That would be the Foggy Mountain Breakdown roll (which never actually appears in Foggy Mountain Breakdown, where a hammeron takes the place of the second note. That's another, far less important, separate discussion.) Most people think of that as a four note alternating finger pattern followed by four notes of forward roll, but if you listen to the opening lick of FMB that rhythm doesn't actually match what you hear. The roll actually breaks down to basic patterns (IM)(TMT)(IMT): 2, 3, and 3 note groups.

Both the forward and FMB rolls can be played over and over - that's one of the basic exercises of beginning bluegrass banjo methods. Most people wouldn't hear them as being rhythmically related - they sound very different - but look at the two rolls lined up differently and you'll find something interesting.

Two forward rolls: TIMTIMTMTIMTIMTM

Two FMB rolls:         IMTMTIMTIMTMTIMT

See it? Start a forward roll on note number 4 and it is the exact finger sequence of a FMB roll. The only thing that makes them different - and this is the first super-important point of this post - is how they line up with the beat of the song. Changing the way the syncopation of the roll lines up against the downbeats changes the entire feel of the roll.

The "squareness" that comes from the two finger group isn't long enough to establish a rhythm of its own. To make a section of a break sound "square", you need to repeat two finger patterns over and over, essentially using each group of two notes to play a quarter note rhythm. Drop back to a constant three finger roll, and you're using groups of three notes to play a dotted quarter note rhythm: syncopation. But two finger patterns have another purpose, as you see here: to change the rhythmic meaning of nearby three finger patterns. That's what they do in the forward and FMB "rolls" in this example.

That explanation brings me to the final example of this post, and one that simultaneously answered two questions for me. Those were:

1.  If 3, 3, 2 is a forward roll, and 2, 3, 3 is a FMB, what is 3, 2, 3 and why don't we play it?


2. How does the basic, common forward/backward TIMTMITM roll fit into this scheme?

For a long time, I wrote off question 1 as a bias against things that don't have names. As beginning players, we practice the forward and FMB roll incessantly. Whole songs in beginning methods are written using these two rolls, so we learn them the basic building blocks we're led to believe they are (if you've read this far, you know I feel pretty strongly that they aren't). No such exercises exist for 3, 2, 3, so we don't learn it.

Except: they do exist. And we do learn it.

On to question 2. That TIMTMITM obviously breaks down as a four note forward (TIMT) followed by a four note backward (MITM). That works great, except using four note groups of three note rolls violate every concept I've talked about here. Three is three, not four, and the idea of adding another note to square the syncopated forward roll is just plain wrong. But there's another way to break this roll down: (TIM)(TM)(ITM). Three note forward, two note alternating, three note backward. 3, 2, 3. And both questions 1 and 2 are answered.

If this whole argument seems needlessly theoretical, it isn't. One of the important purposes of right hand patterns is to find a way to fit melody notes into eight note measures. There are usually far fewer than eight melody notes in a measure - typically, there are between one and four. That means between four and seven of the notes in each measure are fillers - just taking up space to keep the melody notes properly lined up. And in banjo, that proper lineup generally involves choosing between square and syncopated feel - two note or three note groups.

Measures with three melody notes are particularly interesting, and particularly common. One example is the beginning of "Your Love Is Like A Flower", where the first two complete measures are "Long, long a-" and "-go in the". Both of those measures can be played using any of the three patterns above - forward (3, 3, 2), FMB (2, 3, 3) or unnamed (3, 2, 3). Any of those will sound syncopated, but each will sound different - try it. You can also play a square pattern (2, 2, 2, 2) where the middle syllable can be placed in either of the middle groups of two, again with different rhythmic effect. Also, the melody note doesn't have to be the first note of the group, which offers even more rhythmic options. (There is another option: play two melody notes on consecutive eighth notes, another topic for a separate post, and an even more interesting one in which the note groupings don't line up with the measures, so these two measures could be combined into one sixteen note group - for example, 3, 3, 3, 3, 2, 2.).

Each of these combinations creates a different phrasing for the syllables, consistent with Scruggs' talk about "playing the syllables" and about putting the melody notes where he wants them and filling in around them. Those concepts are much easier to state than to play, but they are essential to the fascinating ability of great banjo players, Earl most of all, to mimic the vocal phrasing of great singers. That ability is the hallmark of the best instrumentalists in any genre, those who can turn their instrument into a second voice. Break measures down into syllable-sized pieces you've taken the first step toward achieving that sound.

Edited by - waystation on 12/29/2017 20:06:49