Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 12/30/2017:  05:47:33

(a poke with the stick)



Why should it have to fit "exactly" in an eight note measure? A straight Machine gun tim (Stanley) can have the lines drawn anywhere?

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 12/30/2017 05:48:25

pcfive - Posted - 12/30/2017:  07:13:20

In all aspects of life, we try to find a balance between structure/rules and freedom/creativity. We don't choose one side or the other. Having some kind of structure enhances our freedom to create.

Would you tell banjo students to just go ahead and play music? Actually, as an art student in the 1970s I was told to just go ahead and paint. In those days, they thought all you needed to know to be a great artist was how to get drunk and throw paint at a canvas.

Now, hopefully, we know better.

I am not a beginner at banjo anymore, but I still need a framework. I doubt it's just me.

Waldguy - Posted - 12/30/2017:  09:08:30

One of the strengths of focusing on those rolls is changing up the melody into a more syncopated timing.

If you just play the melody then fill around it, you're typically just going to have the melody in straight time without the push and pull of syncopated timing that makes the banjo stand out in the Scruggs style.

The other bit about rolls is, that they assume you're going to be doing backup at some point. Often, you just want that banjo drive underneath and rolls make it possible.

I agree that a beginner may more likely get off the ground by focusing on melody playing. It's way more fun and resonating with the human spirit!

But, if, in time, you're going to play well with a group, I don't see an alternative to nailing down the rolls with hours of practice.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 12/30/2017:  09:32:02

I don't know if we are maybe speaking of the same thing but both Scruggs and Stanley spoke of not only playing the melody but of playing the syllables as they were sung.

Ken

pcfive - Posted - 12/30/2017:  09:59:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by Waldguy

One of the strengths of focusing on those rolls is changing up the melody into a more syncopated timing.



If you just play the melody then fill around it, you're typically just going to have the melody in straight time without the push and pull of syncopated timing that makes the banjo stand out in the Scruggs style.



The other bit about rolls is, that they assume you're going to be doing backup at some point. Often, you just want that banjo drive underneath and rolls make it possible.



I agree that a beginner may more likely get off the ground by focusing on melody playing. It's way more fun and resonating with the human spirit!



But, if, in time, you're going to play well with a group, I don't see an alternative to nailing down the rolls with hours of practice.

---

When I'm playing backup, that's when I think knowing roll patterns is most useful. And I play backup a lot of the time. All those hours of practice have really helped me get better tone, timing and rhythm. 

But roll patterns can also be helpful with playing melody, as in the book Splitting the Licks. Janet Davis starts every arrangement with melody only, and then fills it in with forward rolls only. Standard licks, and the other standard rolls, are added at each step in the process. 

I think there is a reason why Splitting the Licks is a classic. The same principles can also be used for improvising backup -- the main difference is that backup involves harmony instead of melody.

Even if you forget these basic ideas and don't think you use them in your playing, you probably did learn them at some point, and you might be using them subconsciously.

Waldguy - Posted - 12/30/2017:  10:35:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

I don't know if we are maybe speaking of the same thing but both Scruggs and Stanley spoke of not only playing the melody but of playing the syllables as they were sung.

Ken

---

You're correct Ken. Although now lots of melody licks and tabs now depart from playing the syllables as you sing them while enjoying the many licks and techniques of the old masters.

@pcfive Splitting the Licks is indeed a fantastic resource and does it very often (for example bottom of p. 21 and 23). So, not to depart too far from the Skip's excellent post, the rolls can facilitate some cool variations.

The difference? Sometimes you fill the rolls around the melody. Sometimes you sort of fit the melody into the rolls.

Edited by - Waldguy on 12/30/2017 10:49:14

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 12/30/2017:  12:07:24

And/Are we are right back to the same old roll Dogma? The point of this thread and the best we've had in a long time is to get away from that "must" thinking?? Lots of roll/roll but never no discussion on the importance of Big time vs little time, for example.. The very guts of understanding.. The very thing that makes the difference in banjo picking and pickers.. ( O K. here it is, get ready........... Big time is the major notes/beat, Little time is the spacing between,: the "fill in" notes, Which can and does "vary", the life and feel in the picking)(the difference in good or great pickers and also rans..)

Rolll thinking bad? No of course not but if there is and easier understanding for everyone, it should be put forth..



(Remember Richard?)

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 12/30/2017 12:09:25

pcfive - Posted - 12/30/2017:  12:21:49

We should be able to think about things in more than one way. We can think about Big vs Little timing and also about roll patterns.

Just because something is dogma doesn't mean it's wrong. Doesn't mean it's right either. We have to try things out and decide for ourselves.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 12/30/2017:  12:50:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

We should be able to think about things in more than one way. We can think about Big vs Little timing and also about roll patterns.



Just because something is dogma doesn't mean it's wrong. Doesn't mean it's right either. We have to try things out and decide for ourselves.

---

dog·ma

noun

noun: dogma; plural noun: dogmas

1. a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

adjective: incontrovertible

1. not able to be denied or disputed.

"incontrovertible proof"

waystation - Posted - 12/30/2017:  13:00:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

Rich,

Let me ask you about this statement you made:

Who knows for sure, but I think there may be a different reason for the pattern you are talking about  to end in a 2 note sequence  (TM), is so that the Thumb is in line or free to hit the big note on the first of the next measure. that first note is so important because 1. it is a big note stating the melody. &2. being the first note of the measure it is the spot where drive can really be added. The ability to emphasize both the melody and the downbeat are greatly aided by using the thumb.

---

Ken, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. There are three reasons for not lining up the thumb with the downbeat of every measure. First, the melody note may not be reachable with the thumb (i.e. first string) or may be better played with the index (i.e. followed by a fourth or fifth string note that would have to be played with the thumb. Second, starting every measure with a thumb note is rhythmically monotonous, even if the pattern that follows that first thumb note differs from measure to measure - one of the most powerful rhythmic statements you can make with a banjo is to move the melody notes off the downbeats. Third, restricting yourself to patterns where the "big" note is played with the thumb restricts you to only about half of the possible picking patterns and takes many interesting rhythms off the table. Examples of tunes that can't work this way: Earl's Ground Speed and Home Sweet Home; Alan Munde's Deputy Dalton, Bill Keith's arrangement of Caravan. Bill's Caravan carries most of the melody on the index, and the others use first string melody played with the middle.

quote:

---

And I will throw one other idea at you while not saying one is more right than the other but whatever works best for each is the best for them. But is seems to me that the right hand is broken down into 2 patterns with the first being either continuous rolling (TIM) or (MIT) and the second pattern being old fashioned double thumbing or two finger picking, what ever you want to call it. the alternating thumb roll or square roll is just a variation of 2 finger picking in which the thumb alternates off both the first and 2nd string and not just off the first as is the case in old time playing. the reason you need both types of rolls is to get to the melody note in a more acceptable fashion. Examples of mixing three finger rolls and 2 finger rollls  are the fmb roll (Im) + (Tm) +(TImt). The forward roll (TIMT)(IM)(TM) is actually and inverted FMB roll when broken down into (TimT)+ (Im) +(Tm). I both sequences I have capitalized the fingers that are available to grab the melody with. Again, I get back to the concept that Earl wanted to play the melody of the syllables in the most accurate way possible and often to mimic the singer. So flexibility to grab the melody in different places of the roll was of prime importance to him. So his sequences where to grab the melody and emphasize the rhythm. so he did not try to end a measure on time as much as he was trying to emphasize the starting of the next measure (which did define the last measure. but note that he often ended the last measure on a quarter note and did not define the end of it with a note. but he always announced the starting of a new measure. Again, he was playing the melody while not getting confined to the choppy 2 finger only style.

---

I almost completely agree with you on this one, as far as the incorporation of older two finger patterns with more modern three finger ones. I'd say that there's no reason to capitalize notes that can grab the melody - any of the eight notes in the measure can be a melody note, and things get even more interesting when the pattern fails to reset at the beginning of a measure, like (Tim)(Tim)(Ti) (mTi)(mTi)(Tm) and the emphasized note shifts from the downbeat to the second eighth note, like measures 3-4 of Earl's Breakdown. Maybe it's me, but when I listen to an Earl Scruggs banjo break I hear the notes grouped like in a way that makes the melody notes sound phrased, whether played by the thumb or some other finger.

I've spent a fair amount of time studying and to some extent playing classic 3-finger banjo, which was the dominant finger style, and one of the most popular recorded musical styles of any kind, played in the late 1800s through the 1920s. Technically it's far more difficult than bluegrass, with more right and left hand techniques, gigantic arpeggios that span the whole fingerboard in the space of a measure, and blazing speed. Capos were never used, even though tunes could be in any key, and almost every tune had at least one key change. If you've heard Bill Keith play Nola, you've been on the outskirts of this style. If you want to see the real thing, check out this video of Tarrant Bailey Jr, an Englishman who had the advantage of playing in a country that stubbornly refused to accept that the style was dead.

Yet classic style did die a fairly quick death as jazz became popular, with most working classic banjoists switching to plectrum banjos and a single flatpick. 5-string banjos were mostly unheard of after that, outside of southern bands, until Earl set the world on fire on the Opry with Monroe in 1946. It was as if nobody had ever heard a banjo before, but in fact what they hadn't heard was the syncopation of melodies that didn't line up with the main beats of the tune. In all my listening to fifty plus years of classic banjo recordings, I never heard a single instance of repeating three note patterns that went on longer than a single measure. Earl, who listened to classic players like Vess Ossman and Fred Van Eps as a child (I asked him once), found that secret (or possibly learned it from others like Snuffy Jenkins) and it turned out to be the magic sauce - the thing that really set the banjo apart. In Earl's hands it allowed him to use the same kind of vocal phrasing used by popular singers of the time.

All this is to say that I think you're right on with your idea of Scruggs mimicing the singer (listen to his playing style behind Monroe's staccato singing vs. behind Lester's drawl). I don't think he made any more effort than a singer to announce the start of a new measure - a new vocal phrase, yes, but if a phrase spanned multiple measures he could care less about emphasizing the start of each internal measure.

pcfive - Posted - 12/30/2017:  13:32:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

We should be able to think about things in more than one way. We can think about Big vs Little timing and also about roll patterns.



Just because something is dogma doesn't mean it's wrong. Doesn't mean it's right either. We have to try things out and decide for ourselves.

---

dog·ma

 

noun

 

noun: dogma; plural noun: dogmas

1. a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

 

adjective: incontrovertible

 

1. not able to be denied or disputed.

"incontrovertible proof"

synonyms:

indisputable, incontestable, undeniable, irrefutable, unassailable, beyond dispute, unquestionable, beyond question, indubitable, beyond doubt, unarguable, undebatable; More   "

---

As modern Americans, I think we know that authorities and experts can be wrong. We don't automatically accept dogma as true. On the other hand, authorities and experts are not always wrong. There is no substitute for thinking about things and trying them for yourself. 

I have tried roll patterns and I know they are helpful for me. 

Jim T - Posted - 12/30/2017:  14:23:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

We should be able to think about things in more than one way. We can think about Big vs Little timing and also about roll patterns.



Just because something is dogma doesn't mean it's wrong. Doesn't mean it's right either. We have to try things out and decide for ourselves.

---

dog·ma

 

noun

 

noun: dogma; plural noun: dogmas

1. a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

 

adjective: incontrovertible

 

1. not able to be denied or disputed.

"incontrovertible proof"

synonyms:

indisputable, incontestable, undeniable, irrefutable, unassailable, beyond dispute, unquestionable, beyond question, indubitable, beyond doubt, unarguable, undebatable; More   "

---

As modern Americans, I think we know that authorities and experts can be wrong. We don't automatically accept dogma as true. On the other hand, authorities and experts are not always wrong. There is no substitute for thinking about things and trying them for yourself. 

I have tried roll patterns and I know they are helpful for me. 

---

This whole "dogma" premise has bothered me right from the start. The very first post states that there is a "dogma" about what we all know to be "roll patterns" (Janet Davis even calls them that in her book YCTYB) that need to be practiced over and over and over with no purpose. Who says so? I'm familiar with Janet Davis, Murphy Henry, Ross Nickerson, Jack Hatfield, Banjo Ben Clark, Mike Hedding, and others and nowhere have I heard a "dogma" like this presented. Others on this thread have stated that they don't follow it either. I see roll patterns used as a foundation for getting a new player started and then fairly quickly deviating from these set patterns.

Jim 

warpdrive - Posted - 12/30/2017:  14:47:19

You know, this was a lot eaiser before the internet!

Bottom line,
you learn, how you learn!
What works for you, might not work for me!
If your happy with your playing, that is all that is important!
If you not happy with your playing, you need to find a way to get happy with it!

There is such a thing as overthinking something, and that is what some of you are doing!
Warp!

pcfive - Posted - 12/30/2017:  14:51:56

Try singing while playing without using any roll patterns.

pcfive - Posted - 12/30/2017:  14:53:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by warpdrive

You know, this was a lot eaiser before the internet!



Bottom line,

you learn, how you learn!

What works for you, might not work for me!

If your happy with your playing, that is all that is important!

If you not happy with your playing, you need to find a way to get happy with it!



There is such a thing as overthinking something, and that is what some of you are doing!

Warp!

---

If you are not happy with your playing, how do you find a way to get happy with it unless you think about it?

warpdrive - Posted - 12/30/2017:  16:00:16

Honestly PC,
it's been so long for me, i might be out of touch with what your experiencing, and might even go as far as to say, i may not have ever experienced what your going through.
I had a natural ability, i didn't realize that until about 10 years ago, but i've never struggled with playing some of the basic things, and if i did, i was able to disguise it good enough that people wanted me to play with them anyway.

Like anything else in life, sure, you have to think about it a little, but don't let it ruin your day job or whatever earns you your living!

But i will say this too you, and for me, it was very, very important when i was seeking out what i needed help with, and what style's i was wanting to incorporate into my banjo playing!
You find someone that when you hear them playing(hopefully they live close) that you say, "that is what i would like to sound like" and you seek them out, if for nothing else but to ask them, "who do you know in my area that plays like you, that you would recommend?
Now that isn't always easy, but who said it was gonna be? I don't mean to be flip, but learning from tabs and talking lessons from music store multi-instrumetnt mozart's are not always the best to learn Bluegrass Banjo.

You ask about being happy about your picking!
You may be happy about your picking, and have the wrong people around you, telling you something that is making you want to do it for them instead of yourself.

I have seen first hand, right here on the hangout, people who really were heading in the right direction with there picking, but because how this site is designed, some keyboard quarterbacks jump in, and really mess there thinking up.

Quit tying to please the masses, find you one style, one teacher, and do that until you have it down, then move on to the next phase.

All these banjo instructors, books, dvd's, online classes and such, are just like all the different takes on religion, (how scary is that thought?)
Find the one that works for you, and maybe you will find heaven!
Just my take on it,
Till you get to the next level,
Warp!

pcfive - Posted - 12/30/2017:  16:23:57

Well actually warpdrive, I have been doing this a long time and have found some things that work for me. I am not nearly as confused as I used to be.



I don't think I had any natural ability for bluegrass banjo, and having played guitar all my life might have made it harder. But I feel like I have learned to have a natural ability, because playing banjo feels like second nature now. This only happened recently, maybe because of working less and having more time to practice.



I hope it will continue to improve, but I am less stressed about it now. I know I can get by with what I have already learned.



Most recently, I have been trying to learn how to play rolls while singing, which I could never do before. Now I can do it, and I think it's only because of years of practicing roll patterns.



I finally am getting the tone I always wanted, and timing and rhythm are ok. Doing all this at high speeds can still be a challenge, but the groups and jams I play with aren't usually extremely fast. (I would define extremely fast as over 140 bpm, I guess).

Edited by - pcfive on 12/30/2017 16:25:03

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 12/30/2017:  16:43:10

rich,

Good post. My point was not that every measure should be started with a thumb but that the ending of a measure should often be done with the prospects of getting your fingers into position to do what they needed to do when they needed to do it.

ken

ps:" Maybe it's me, but when I listen to an Earl Scruggs banjo break I hear the notes grouped like in a way that makes the melody notes sound phrased, whether played by the thumb or some other finger. "

Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 12/30/2017 16:45:49

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 12/30/2017:  16:50:03

The reason I said "remember Richard".. is that he advocated starting with two fingers, getting the sound down and rhythm.. THEN throwing in the third.. and provided very good illustrations, clips and videos showing the process.. greatly simplified the learning process..
THEN the naysayers, jumped in and attempted to refute it all.. Til he simply got fed up and quit/left.. A shame..

Now...... " We find that's exactly the way Earl did it!!"

(I'm with Warp, it just doesn't have to be that complicated..)

eagleisland - Posted - 12/30/2017:  17:54:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

Try singing while playing without using any roll patterns.

---

I do it all the time. Lots of singing banjo players do.

Having read your stuff over the years, it often seems you'd rather argue on the Hangout than explore the possibilities of the instrument. Like I said earlier, follow your bliss. Like I said in the original post, if swotting roll patterns is working for you, fine. All I'm doing is offering another way to think about it.

I'm done with you on this thread - not because you prefer another mechanism than what I'm suggesting, but because I have  better things to do with my time. If you're happy with how you're progressing, then you are welcome to keep doing what you're doing. You're welcome to reject anything I - or for that matter, any other teacher hereabouts, says going forward. I certainly know that I'll be ignoring you.

Hope the little box you've constructed around yourself is warm and cozy.

pcfive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  03:05:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by eagleisland

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

Try singing while playing without using any roll patterns.

---

I do it all the time. Lots of singing banjo players do.

Having read your stuff over the years, it often seems you'd rather argue on the Hangout than explore the possibilities of the instrument. Like I said earlier, follow your bliss. Like I said in the original post, if swotting roll patterns is working for you, fine. All I'm doing is offering another way to think about it.

I'm done with you on this thread - not because you prefer another mechanism than what I'm suggesting, but because I have  better things to do with my time. If you're happy with how you're progressing, then you are welcome to keep doing what you're doing. You're welcome to reject anything I - or for that matter, any other teacher hereabouts, says going forward. I certainly know that I'll be ignoring you.

Hope the little box you've constructed around yourself is warm and cozy.

---

The reason I sometimes "argue" here is because I am trying to understand. And some people feel they have to be insulting if you disagree with them.

One way to figure out whose theory is better, I guess, would be to hear the results of their theories. I listened to some of your MP3s but I couldn't find any where I could hear the banjo well.

Edited by - pcfive on 12/31/2017 03:05:51

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 12/31/2017:  03:32:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

---

Originally posted by eagleisland

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

Try singing while playing without using any roll patterns.

---

I do it all the time. Lots of singing banjo players do.

Having read your stuff over the years, it often seems you'd rather argue on the Hangout than explore the possibilities of the instrument. Like I said earlier, follow your bliss. Like I said in the original post, if swotting roll patterns is working for you, fine. All I'm doing is offering another way to think about it.

I'm done with you on this thread - not because you prefer another mechanism than what I'm suggesting, but because I have  better things to do with my time. If you're happy with how you're progressing, then you are welcome to keep doing what you're doing. You're welcome to reject anything I - or for that matter, any other teacher hereabouts, says going forward. I certainly know that I'll be ignoring you.

Hope the little box you've constructed around yourself is warm and cozy.

---

The reason I sometimes "argue" here is because I am trying to understand. And some people feel they have to be insulting if you disagree with them.

One way to figure out whose theory is better, I guess, would be to hear the results of their theories. I listened to some of your MP3s but I couldn't find any where I could hear the banjo well.

 

---

Wow, that is a cheap shot. I could sure hear the banjo on both the videos and the sound clips from Skip and I heard a variety of good playing. I looked at your page and could find no sound clips posted to, as you say, back up the veracity of your claims. If you really wanted to learn you would look up his first post and see 24 likes. further you would see some of the pros that followed who strongly endorsed his statement. I am embarrassed and chagrined  that Skp has to take your  falsely based abuse. if you have followed Skip, you would know that he has made many contributions on the hangout that have received strong support. However you have consistently had claims brought against you by people with proven credibility in both ability and veracity similar to what Skip said. My $.02 for you would be to do more listening and trying to see their side of it rather than "arguing". Good luck and goodbye.

ken

pcfive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  03:41:17

I could hear it, but not well enough to know what the tone was like.

And I read the post carefully but could not understand it.

I don't care how many people agreed or liked it.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 12/31/2017:  03:56:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I could hear it, but not well enough to know what the tone was like.



And I read the post carefully but could not understand it.



I don't care how many people agreed or liked it.

---

Thanks for stating you don't care how many people liked or agreed with it even though they have proven superiority of skills and knowledge to you.

psychologytoday.com/articles/2...ontrarian

pcfive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  04:58:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I could hear it, but not well enough to know what the tone was like.



And I read the post carefully but could not understand it.



I don't care how many people agreed or liked it.

---

Thanks for stating you don't care how many people liked or agreed with it even though they have proven superiority of skills and knowledge to you.

psychologytoday.com/articles/2...ontrarian

---

First of all, how do you know I have inferior skills and knowledge??

And if a contrarian is an independent thinker, then maybe I am slightly contrarian. Here are quotes from your article:

"IQ is also a contributing factor: The smarter people are, the less they feel compelled to conform to social expectations."

"Because of their unconventional outlook, some contrarians make important creative contributions to society. "

Not saying I am smart, that is not for me to say. But it is true that I do NOT reflexively go along with whatever other people are saying. There are certain things I really care about and that I really try to understand. One of those things is bluegrass banjo! And if I really try to understand something, I don't just automatically accept every expert opinion.

Most of the time, I have no strong opinion on posts at this forum. Once in a great while I read a post that I don't understand or don't agree with. Like this one. I don't think that makes me a habitual contrarian.

It does, however, get some people very riled. Maybe you don't like to see experts questioned. Not that eagleisland is necessarily more an expert than I am, since I have been here longer.

But there are great experts that I DO agree with, such as Janet Davis for example.

Slick Salmon - Posted - 12/31/2017:  05:25:12

This was a very interesting discussion for a while. Too bad it ran off the rails.

5stringJim - Posted - 12/31/2017:  06:24:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

 

First of all, how do you know I have inferior skills and knowledge??

Exactly. Please back up your statements with some MP3 examples of your playing. I can usually tell in an instant whether someone has learned by rolls.

It does, however, get some people very riled. Maybe you don't like to see experts questioned. Not that eagleisland is necessarily more an expert than I am, since I have been here longer.

 

 

What makes you think that being a longer-term member of an Internet Forum entitles you to any more respect or expertise than anyone else ?  Again please back up that claim with an MP3 clip.

pcfive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  07:07:26

I posted Old Joe Clark. It doesn't entitle me to any respect or expertise, just shows (in my opinion) I am not a beginner.

SimonSlick - Posted - 12/31/2017:  07:47:55

Many of the self-proclaimed experts have an exaggerated opinion as to the level of their own expertise. They often resort to condescension and personal insults when confronted with disagreement.

As for "roll dogma," I have never heard of it and have no idea what it is. I cannot re-think it because I have never given it the first thought to begin with. My playing may be chocked full of, or totally devoid of, roll dogma. I don't know. I just try to play the song.

rockyisland - Posted - 12/31/2017:  09:31:03

Everything I have to say about the subject, in no particular order:

1) I thought Skip's original post was really well thought-out and written, like most of his posts, which I really enjoy reading and usually learn a lot from.

2) I have to say, though, that my experience with learning rolls wasn't the same as Skip's. After reading the post I took down my copy of Janet Davis' YCTYB book, which was what I used primarily when I started out, to see what she wrote about rolls. These two passages stood out:

"Roll patterns are the basis for all songs played in Scruggs style on the banjo. Every song you play will be comprised of various combinations of roll patterns"

and, later,

"Each pattern consists of eight eighth notes (one measure of music or tablature)"

Now, if I had been reading more closely, I could have understood Ms. Davis as saying that "Every song you play will be comprised [should be composed, English major] of . . . pattern[s] consist[ing] of eight eighth notes"

But I really didn't read it that closely. I just tried to play every example in the book, and when I was able to play an example okay I'd move on the next page. In the early pages, for illustrative purposes, Ms. Davis has several songs that just use one 8-note roll pattern in every measure, e.g., "Bile Dem Cabbage Down" with only 8-note forward rolls, "Mountain Dew" with just 8-note forward-reverse rolls.

But it seems to me that if Ms. Davis was setting forth a "dogma" about Scruggs banjo consisting entirely of 8-note roll patterns, she quickly abandoned it by the time she got to "Cripple Creek" fairly early in the book. None of the A-part measures contains an 8-note roll pattern complete in it, only single notes, pinches, and fragments of roll patterns. And so on for the rest of the songs in the book. So if there was a dogma, Ms. Davis wasn't being dogmatic about it.

3) I think being able to play one-measure roll patterns, and two-measure forward roll patterns, helps enormously with backup, like others have said. Earl's backup is full of roll patterns (though often with a quarter note substituted for two eighth notes in a forward roll) even though he probably wasn't thinking in those terms. I would guess that very few banjo players are reinventing the wheel when they play backup. I know I personally steal shamelessly from Earl.

4) Using the word "dogma" to describe a concept makes it hard to discuss it fairly, because "dogma" has such a negative connotation everywhere but in certain theological circles. It's as if I posted a thread about "the prewar cult" or "Ralph worshippers" or "anti-roll pattern shibboleths."

5) The word doesn't seem to be that accurate, because most teachers aren't that dogmatic about 8-note roll patterns. They start out with them, use them to get the muscle memory going, but then abandon them pretty soon into the method book when they tab out a more involved song. I can't imagine an actual banjo teacher who really maintains that Scruggs banjo songs/tunes consist entirely of 8-note roll patterns, no matter what impression they might give on the first few pages of the method book or in the first few lessons.

6) What works for a learner, and what confuses a learner, can be a pretty personal thing. If I had taken lessons and my teacher had told me what yours told you, that would have probably confused me more. Some of the posts on this thread discussing the intricacies of TIMTIMTIMMMTIMTTIMTIMIMIT make my eyes glaze over. In my case, I just needed to sit in the backseat of my car on my lunch break with the Davis book, the Earl book, and my cheap Fender banjo and repeat roll patterns and songs until it started to make sense. Getting to be able to play one-measure and two-measure forward roll patterns (the square and forward-reverse rolls were easy enough) on autopilot--getting the weird sound of "three divided into two/four" down--that was a prerequisite for so much of Scruggs-style banjo for me.

7) I really miss Richard Dress, minstrelmike, and Dave Magram. I rarely agreed with everything they said but they were very passionate about learning bluegrass banjo. Unfortunately I think sometimes the arguments here can get a little too personal, especially when you're arguing with the same people for years over numerous threads.

phb - Posted - 12/31/2017:  09:48:06

Even if you are right, you'll have to tolerate the wrong. Freedom of speech includes the freedom of putting anything into doubt, dogma or no dogma. That being said, what I can't tolerate are badly tuned instruments... 

Jim T - Posted - 12/31/2017:  10:18:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by rockyisland

Everything I have to say about the subject, in no particular order:



1) I thought Skip's original post was really well thought-out and written, like most of his posts, which I really enjoy reading and usually learn a lot from.



2) I have to say, though, that my experience with learning rolls wasn't the same as Skip's. After reading the post I took down my copy of Janet Davis' YCTYB book, which was what I used primarily when I started out, to see what she wrote about rolls. These two passages stood out:



"Roll patterns are the basis for all songs played in Scruggs style on the banjo. Every song you play will be comprised of various combinations of roll patterns"



and, later,



"Each pattern consists of eight eighth notes (one measure of music or tablature)"



Now, if I had been reading more closely, I could have understood Ms. Davis as saying that "Every song you play will be comprised [should be composed, English major] of . . . pattern[s] consist[ing] of eight eighth notes"



But I really didn't read it that closely. I just tried to play every example in the book, and when I was able to play an example okay I'd move on the next page. In the early pages, for illustrative purposes, Ms. Davis has several songs that just use one 8-note roll pattern in every measure, e.g., "Bile Dem Cabbage Down" with only 8-note forward rolls, "Mountain Dew" with just 8-note forward-reverse rolls.



But it seems to me that if Ms. Davis was setting forth a "dogma" about Scruggs banjo consisting entirely of 8-note roll patterns, she quickly abandoned it by the time she got to "Cripple Creek" fairly early in the book. None of the A-part measures contains an 8-note roll pattern complete in it, only single notes, pinches, and fragments of roll patterns. And so on for the rest of the songs in the book. So if there was a dogma, Ms. Davis wasn't being dogmatic about it.



3) I think being able to play one-measure roll patterns, and two-measure forward roll patterns, helps enormously with backup, like others have said. Earl's backup is full of roll patterns (though often with a quarter note substituted for two eighth notes in a forward roll) even though he probably wasn't thinking in those terms. I would guess that very few banjo players are reinventing the wheel when they play backup. I know I personally steal shamelessly from Earl.



4) Using the word "dogma" to describe a concept makes it hard to discuss it fairly, because "dogma" has such a negative connotation everywhere but in certain theological circles. It's as if I posted a thread about "the prewar cult" or "Ralph worshippers" or "anti-roll pattern shibboleths."



5) The word doesn't seem to be that accurate, because most teachers aren't that dogmatic about 8-note roll patterns. They start out with them, use them to get the muscle memory going, but then abandon them pretty soon into the method book when they tab out a more involved song. I can't imagine an actual banjo teacher who really maintains that Scruggs banjo songs/tunes consist entirely of 8-note roll patterns, no matter what impression they might give on the first few pages of the method book or in the first few lessons.



6) What works for a learner, and what confuses a learner, can be a pretty personal thing. If I had taken lessons and my teacher had told me what yours told you, that would have probably confused me more. Some of the posts on this thread discussing the intricacies of TIMTIMTIMMMTIMTTIMTIMIMIT make my eyes glaze over. In my case, I just needed to sit in the backseat of my car on my lunch break with the Davis book, the Earl book, and my cheap Fender banjo and repeat roll patterns and songs until it started to make sense. Getting to be able to play one-measure and two-measure forward roll patterns (the square and forward-reverse rolls were easy enough) on autopilot--getting the weird sound of "three divided into two/four" down--that was a prerequisite for so much of Scruggs-style banjo for me.



7) I really miss Richard Dress, minstrelmike, and Dave Magram. I rarely agreed with everything they said but they were very passionate about learning bluegrass banjo. Unfortunately I think sometimes the arguments here can get a little too personal, especially when you're arguing with the same people for years over numerous threads.

---

Very well said. You've reinforced the points I was trying to make earlier.  Thank you.

Jim

PS: I have never seen "that book" (that hasn't been mentioned by name) and didn't realize until recently just how much of a bullet (dogma) I had unwittingly dodged. LOL

Edited by - Jim T on 12/31/2017 10:27:30

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 12/31/2017:  11:01:25

Rocky,
Very good post. Thanks, I want to 2nd your feelings about missing Magram and Dress. They loved it and had experience. Recently John Boulding has blogged that he is removing himself from teaching on the hangout and moving all his conversations to a facebook page that you have to get approval to be part of. John will be a devastating loss to the hangout as he is a great player, teacher and student of banjo. I wonder if this thread shows indications of why he left. I have seen Ron Stewart, Kenny INgram, & Pat Cloud (all unquestionable masters) all withdraw from this forum.
Ken

eagleisland - Posted - 12/31/2017:  11:18:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

Recently John Boulding has blogged that he is removing himself from teaching on I wonder if this thread shows indications of why he left. 

---

Yep. I’ve been in touch with him backchannel (in fact, he was kind enough to review the original post in this thread before I put it up).  Basically, he got tired of arguing with ungracious  people. He’s not the only highly skilled player and teacher to have done this.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 12/31/2017:  11:38:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by eagleisland

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

Recently John Boulding has blogged that he is removing himself from teaching on I wonder if this thread shows indications of why he left. 

---

Yep. I’ve been in touch with him backchannel (in fact, he was kind enough to review the original post in this thread before I put it up).  Basically, he got tired of arguing with ungracious  people. He’s not the only highly skilled player and teacher to have done this.

---

Skip: it is all as I thought. I have seen this wheel turn too many times. Thanks for your efforts and thanks for trying. Soon we will be lead by the catfish as we try to journey over the land.  this has to be a problem for Eric but I am not sure it can be solved. Hope you are having some good New England cider.

Ken

@eagleisland

Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 12/31/2017 11:41:49

pcfive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  11:42:29

What bothers me most here is the condescending sarcasm and personal insults. I think it should be ok to question the pronouncements of the "experts."

I got into arguments here maybe twice in 10 years, but mostly I stay away. I used to learn valuable things from Richard Dress, for example, but that was long ago. Some teachers really want to help you learn, others just want to show off how great they are.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 12/31/2017:  11:46:24

Have you heard the phrase .." Ignorance begats ignorance".. While most of these peoples' hearts and certainly enthusiasum is great and to be commended... They simply don't realize that they are not at the level of some of the others yet.. and use info or quotes from the someone at same level, not knowing.. You see it over and over on the countless bridge threads.. head tuning, etc.. Even on this thread.. "I'm not a beginner and the soundfile shows clearly beginning level skills.. This can be spotted immediately and easily and does provide a continual source of amusement for awhile...But....



While arguing the same continually with truly knowledgeble pros, gurus, respected craftsmen in the business... Is it any wonder, they all get fed up??:

Dang didn't want to hijack...  Had for gotten Dave leaving, truly one of the good Guru guys.. shame on me..

Now can we get past this t

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 12/31/2017 11:49:28

Roll Player - Posted - 12/31/2017:  12:29:27

@pcfive, I think you could learn a valuable thing or two if you approached Skip's original post with an open mind. I'm hoping that others will do just that. Skip put a lot of thought and time into writing it. I think it's a great post.

The structure of music comes from melody, harmony and rhythm. Written music imposes additional structures of its own, such as measures, but there's a danger in thinking that those additional structures are the music itself rather than just a way to represent it.

Focusing too much attention on 8-note roll patterns can easily divert you from the melody and phrasing of a song. It's hard to "roll with the flow" of a song if you're thinking in one or even two bar eighth-note patterns.

pcfive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  12:50:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roll Player

@pcfive, I think you could learn a valuable thing or two if you approached Skip's original post with an open mind. I'm hoping that others will do just that. Skip put a lot of thought and time into writing it. I think it's a great post.



The structure of music comes from melody, harmony and rhythm. Written music imposes additional structures of its own, such as measures, but there's a danger in thinking that those additional structures are the music itself rather than just a way to represent it.



Focusing too much attention on 8-note roll patterns can easily divert you from the melody and phrasing of a song. It's hard to "roll with the flow" of a song if you're thinking in one or even two bar eighth-note patterns.

---

Actually, I don't focus on 8 note rolls. I use them as warm up exercises, but don't think much about them while playing backup, and almost never while playing breaks.

I did not disagree with everything in the post. I just thought there was too much emphasis on discarding structure, and calling it dogma. It seemed to say we should think in terms of 3 note rolls, but I am not at all sure about that. 8 and 16 note roll patterns can help get the syncopation right. If you focus on 3 note patterns, the accent could fall on the wrong notes.

As for my recording sounding like a beginner (after 10 years!), well I did make it in a hurry since I am trying to work today and should not be here at all! But no one who plays with me thinks I sound like a beginner. 

warpdrive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  13:07:43

Guys,
i have watched ya'll try to ring this pig's nose for a few days now, and anything contrary to what the op said, and those in support, keep this in mind.

You are able to act out like second graders arguing with a teacher without the re-percussions of it, because of the way the site was designed and set-up!
"enjoy it, while you can"
for the days will come, when all you have to ask questions of will be to people who are no better able to pick than yourselves, and you will continue to not get it, or progress, much like the blind leading the blind.
And when you come to a site where real professional banjo pickers, and ex-pros and teachers congregate, "YOU WILL NOT QUESTION YOUR BETTERS" but you will always have the hangout to come back to, where you don't have to prove you can pick, you just offer up the first thing that pops into your head that sounds right!

I can only imagine what some of ya'lls jam sessions must sound like!
It is a sorry individual that ask for help, and then questions the manner in which he gets it!

Warp!

Roll Player - Posted - 12/31/2017:  13:43:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roll Player

@pcfive, I think you could learn a valuable thing or two if you approached Skip's original post with an open mind. I'm hoping that others will do just that. Skip put a lot of thought and time into writing it. I think it's a great post.



The structure of music comes from melody, harmony and rhythm. Written music imposes additional structures of its own, such as measures, but there's a danger in thinking that those additional structures are the music itself rather than just a way to represent it.



Focusing too much attention on 8-note roll patterns can easily divert you from the melody and phrasing of a song. It's hard to "roll with the flow" of a song if you're thinking in one or even two bar eighth-note patterns.

---

Actually, I don't focus on 8 note rolls. I use them as warm up exercises, but don't think much about them while playing backup, and almost never while playing breaks.

I did not disagree with everything in the post. I just thought there was too much emphasis on discarding structure, and calling it dogma. It seemed to say we should think in terms of 3 note rolls, but I am not at all sure about that. 8 and 16 note roll patterns can help get the syncopation right. If you focus on 3 note patterns, the accent could fall on the wrong notes.

As for my recording sounding like a beginner (after 10 years!), well I did make it in a hurry since I am trying to work today and should not be here at all! But no one who plays with me thinks I sound like a beginner.

---

The structure doesn't come from the roll. The roll is just a sequence of however many notes generated by the fingers of your right hand.

The structure comes the melody and beat (rhythm) of the song. If you can focus on this while rolling, i.e. feeling the beat and playing the melody, you'll be doing what (imo) the pros and advanced players do.

Slurs within the roll (hammers, slides, pulloffs, chokes) can help you to bring out the melody (or a counter-melody if you're playing backup.) I know that's a little off-topic but integrating slurs and rolling are a big part of Scruggs-style. It was something missing from your sound file - maybe something you should work on a bit.

You mention syncopation, and I have some thoughts about that. There are more kinds of syncopation possible in Scruggs than just the obvious ones. I like the subtle syncopation produced by the repetition of middle finger 1st string notes in a forward or backward roll where the note repeats on and off beat, especially when the roll lasts longer than 8 notes. Syncopation is always there in the round (forward or backward) rolls whether you want it or not because of that 1st string repetition.

Just some thoughts.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 12/31/2017:  13:43:44

warpdrive Kevin, you kill me! This firehose of information that we call the internet is indeed a double edged sword. we got quantity! Quality on the other hand, is more difficult to get a handle on. I actually think that too much information can be damaging, as people are not encouraged to figure stuff out for themselves - hey, why not just google it? I learned in a time and a place where I had to figure stuff out for myself. That's right, trial and error (lots of error). Wouldn't have it any other way. Failure is a great teacher. how about using your ears?

Roll Player - Posted - 12/31/2017:  13:50:12

Warp, it's not the questions that's the problem. It's the not-listening-to-the answers. (Or even being willing to think about them.)

It's a shame to see someone like John Boulding pulling away from the hangout.

saulsmanb - Posted - 12/31/2017:  14:08:30

One correction at least in the case of Dave Magram: the concern that led him to leave BHO (at least as he expressed it to me) was not simply about non experts weighing in, or even ignorant players not listening to the experts. That happens on any site.

Dave was frustrated with the lack of general civility (which can apply to a poster of any skill level) and the fact that the site owner was unwilling to be more active in maintaining a positive atmosphere on the site.

Dave still participates in the Steel Guitar Forum which has a very different feeling than this site, for a variety of reasons.

All the best
Brian Saulsman

warpdrive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  14:14:41

Right your are Art!
John was just about the last hope some of these guys ever had, and a few "keyboard quatersbacks"( that's a warp drive original BTW!) have ruined it for them!

John Boulding has or had should i say, the patience of an Oyster, and yet certain individuals on the hangout managed to get on his last nerve too!

it never ceases to amaze me, year in and out, how and why, the tail can continue to wag the dog on this site, but change is a coming, it won't happen on this site, but for the ones that are seeking it, the change is going to happen, in fact, it's already started, you just have to know where to look.
Warp!

pcfive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  14:29:09

This forum is divided into experts and non-experts, and non-experts must never doubt the infallible wisdom of the experts. If they do, the experts will stomp off angrily and dispense their wisdom elsewhere.

I doubt that was the reason Richard Dress left. And I'm sure we can think of other experts who left because of the general condescending nastiness and impoliteness that is so common here.

chuckv97 - Posted - 12/31/2017:  14:37:19

I liked Richard Dress, but he could be Steve Cannon-like ; ) I think he got locked out, according to this archived thread.....banjohangout.org/archive/290602
Dave Magram was a stickler for detail and a fount of knowledge, but he left ,I think, due to his 34* pick angle being questioned (read: ridiculed) by some.

pcfive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  14:45:03

Well exactly how many left because non-experts weren't always subservient and obedient enough? Aside from banjophobic.

Roll Player - Posted - 12/31/2017:  14:52:39

There are many levels of expertise (ignorance too.) Experts (real or imagined) don't always agree with each other either. Some people could have better attitudes or maybe just use a mute.