pcfive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  15:00:30

quote:

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Originally posted by Roll Player

There are many levels of expertise (ignorance too.) Experts (real or imagined) don't always agree with each other either. Some people could have better attitudes or maybe just use a mute.

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I know there are many levels. But some people here think there is a small group of elite experts who must be venerated by everyone else. I always thought this was a discussion forum, but now I realize it isn't.

Roll Player - Posted - 12/31/2017:  15:25:52

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

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Originally posted by Roll Player

There are many levels of expertise (ignorance too.) Experts (real or imagined) don't always agree with each other either. Some people could have better attitudes or maybe just use a mute.

---

I know there are many levels. But some people here think there is a small group of elite experts who must be venerated by everyone else. I always thought this was a discussion forum, but now I realize it isn't.

---

Of course it's a discussion forum. Nobody needs to be venerated either, maybe respected though, especially when they put a lot of time and effort into sharing their often considerable knowledge. Not all seed falls on good ground though.

(Btw, I apologize for getting a bit snarky on the last sentence of my previous post.)

I've been trying to discuss some of the points you've raised about structure in the hopes that maybe you or others reading can make the shift from looking to specific roll patterns for that structure to finding it in the melody and beat of the songs you're trying to play. Try to consider that with an open mind, and how that might work.

pcfive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  16:01:21

quote:

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Originally posted by Roll Player

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

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Originally posted by Roll Player

There are many levels of expertise (ignorance too.) Experts (real or imagined) don't always agree with each other either. Some people could have better attitudes or maybe just use a mute.

---

I know there are many levels. But some people here think there is a small group of elite experts who must be venerated by everyone else. I always thought this was a discussion forum, but now I realize it isn't.

---

Of course it's a discussion forum. Nobody needs to be venerated either, maybe respected though, especially when they put a lot of time and effort into sharing their often considerable knowledge. Not all seed falls on good ground though.

(Btw, I apologize for getting a bit snarky on the last sentence of my previous post.)

I've been trying to discuss some of the points you've raised about structure in the hopes that maybe you or others reading can make the shift from looking to specific roll patterns for that structure to finding it in the melody and beat of the songs you're trying to play. Try to consider that with an open mind, and how that might work.

---

I consider the rhythm of the particular song, that is my first priority. And of course I consider the melody.

I think we are just having all kinds of communication problems related to this post, and people are assuming all kinds of things.

stanger - Posted - 12/31/2017:  16:24:05

A very well done essay, Skip! Kudos, my friend!

Back in 1963 when I first began grasping the basics of bluegrass, the only teaching manual that existed for the style was a chapter in Pete Seeger's book. It was written by his brother Mike, and explained some of the basic rolls in tab.

So I learned them, sort of. I found 2-finger playing to be a lot more understandable, but I tried to incorporate the 3rd finger when I could.
It didn't make much sense to me until I bought the Foggy Mountain Boy's new recording "Foggy Mountain Banjo" early that summer. By then, I had been practicing the Scruggs rolls about 6 months or so. That record taught me how to use them.

I learned through sheer listening repetition. At first, I selected one song, and would play it over and over and over, trying to listen for just the melody notes. When I got those notes on my banjo, I would then repeat the listening process, trying to discover how to extract the melody from within the rolls, and how Earl would drop out to play only single notes, and how he transitioned from one roll to another.
At the same time, I began learning all the basic chord shapes on the fingerboard, practicing them by concentrating on my left hand, and playing just one or two different rolls.

Learning the left hand work on the neck allowed me to approximate Earl's melodies by jumping from chord to chord, much like a tenor player does, to get the melody. His other stuff was just enough for me to stitch the other stuff together.

As a result, I never did sound like Earl very much. But I was able to learn many of those songs on the record, and how to use his syncopation to emphasize the melody notes that existed inside the rolls.

Fast forward 35 years, and while teaching, I discovered that teaching the melodic style to a complete beginner made more sense to them because the melody is emphasized over the rhythm in that style. I learned melodics much later, and after becoming habituated to the Scruggs style, melodics were both more perplexing and much more counter-intuitive to me, so, for me, they were a long struggle.

But not so much for a stone beginner. For them, it's all equally new, so teaching the melody, which seems to be the element most beginners listen for, was no harder or easier than anything else.

Interestingly, the Scruggs tunes were just as hard for my students as they had been for me whenever I taught them to others.

I always liked to sing. That helped me a lot, The Seeger book gave me enough to use the banjo like guitar players use guitars- as rhythm instruments. Gaining a knowledge of chord structure, the key to any song, allowed my left hand to become smarter than my right for the 18 months or so I first spent playing the banjo.

So when I approached bluegrass, my job was much lessened. All I had to educate was my right hand, not both at the same time. Singing gave me an understanding of how to phrase the notes of a song. An instrumental is only using the instrument to express the melody of a song, not the voice.

So singing always helps a beginner, even if they hate to sing. Being shy over a person's singing ability can be a real drag when it comes to learning how to play the banjo. But even if one never sings a note, learning how to really listen carefully can teach someone enough to get a start.
regards,
stanger

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 12/31/2017:  17:35:08

Amen... Might have revealed a very good insight? With so much "how to" available today (a good thing).. More emphasis or all is placed on the "mechanics" "What is that roll they are using"? and "listening", like we had to do in the old days, learning how it sounds and then figuring out "how" is a thing of the past?



Listening, learning the music and the "how/role/actual sound" of the banjo fits is delegated to a far distant second or not at all.. The most basic tool that we oldtimers and the "pioneers" used to learn..

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 12/31/2017 17:37:25

eagleisland - Posted - 12/31/2017:  17:48:09

quote:

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Originally posted by stanger

(a whole bunch of brilliancy. If you don't understand what comes next, re-read his post).

---

Yes. Exactly. I never said 8-note patterns were useless; in fact, re-read the original post and I specifically pointed out areas in which I consider them potentially useful. I play common Scruggs licks all the time, and by definition that means that I'm often playing these patterns by default. I play them because they SOUND good  - not because of the pattern.

But Mike's post draws an underline: melody and rhythm are the most critical components, and rolls - ROLLS, not roll patterns - are how we get them on demand.

I had the honor of joining Mike (Stanger) - and his sweet and gorgeous Aussies, and arguably the finest non-prewar banjo I ever had in my hands (an absolutely exquisite Prucha) for an afternoon way too many years ago. We talked. We played. We theorized. I was pretty much a noob at the time. Mike offered me insights I rely upon to this day. Bottom line is that he gets it. Anything we can do to advance our own understanding, and capabilities, with the instrument are steps forward.

Roll dogma - some of you don't like the term, but hey - that title got you to read the thread, didn't it? I wanted to make you think - CAN work for some people. In the original post, I specifically said that if practicing eight note patterns is working for you, carry on.

But it is also limiting. Mike plays far beyond patterns. He is a MUSICIAN. He doesn't care about mechanics - he cares about notes and spaces - melody and rhythm. A small handful of patterns may have helped him start, but he was already a musician when he first picked up the banjo.

Patterns, as an entry point to the instrument (and, considering how many people pick up a banjo with no prior musical experience at all) have sent far too many others to the exit, in my opinion. They very nearly sent me there - and I was raised in a household in which music wasn't simply a way to pass the time, it was expected.

The problem, as I see it, is that too many learning methods base their point-of-entry on these patterns. Let's not even mention all the stupid YouTube videos that do the same thing. That's the entire reason I started this thread.

It's delightful to imagine that we can gain a skill like competency on a musical instrument with a few steps and a wee bit of effort. But we can't, and again: these patterns were codified long after Scruggs, Stanley and Reno started setting (a rather small part of) the world on fire - and it's worth noting that all three all did many things differently.

As others have pointed out in this thread, it was arguably Bill Keith - every bit as much of a revolutionary with the instrument as Earl - to whom we can credit (or blame) the identification of roll patterns. He figured out there were certain right-hand measures of music Earl played frequently. NOTE - that's MEASURES OF MUSIC, not rolls. Earl repeated certain right-hand moves a lot because they sounded good, not because he was working from patterns. Keith identified them, and that was great - but as far as I'm concerned, too many latter-day attempts at selling success at the instrument have essentially treated the fact that Scruggs played them and Keith recognized them as the keys to the kingdom.

They are not.

If you think even deeper, and look at the rudiments, it can become more understandable. And no, there are no shortcuts. There is only understanding, and a lot of work.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 12/31/2017:  18:28:08

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

warpdrive Kevin, you kill me! This firehose of information that we call the internet is indeed a double edged sword. we got quantity! Quality on the other hand, is more difficult to get a handle on. I actually think that too much information can be damaging, as people are not encouraged to figure stuff out for themselves - hey, why not just google it? I learned in a time and a place where I had to figure stuff out for myself. That's right, trial and error (lots of error). Wouldn't have it any other way. Failure is a great teacher. how about using your ears?

---

OK, I got to watch how i say this but can't resist. Lawrence just brought it too much to mind.  There was a movie with Ralph Macchio (of karate kid fame) called Crossroads. It was about a young white kid (Ralph) who went to Mississippi to learn to play the blues guitar from blue guitar great "Willie Brown". Of course he runs into a hot young thing and has a love interest in the story. At a certain time late in the movie Macchio is complaining to Brown about his lack of progress. To which Brown replied something to the effect: : "boy if you spent as much time with your hands on that guitar as you do with your hands on that girls a$$, you would be a blues man by now!"

Lawrence, Your post reminded me of that. Thanks for preaching the truth and not the fluff. when i get done here I got to go put the picks on.

And Warp: you are hot tonight. About as hot as your Christmas melody which had it chargin' big time!.

Let er go boys! 3s & 2s. 1s, 3s & 1s whatever. Just get er done and get the right things in the right places and if when your doin it I ain't tappin my foot,  you are not in the race!

youtube.com/watch?v=GjCv21hx3Lw

signing out,

Bent and old,

Gray and busted,

Used and abused and often mistrusted,

fat when skinny is king,

but just want to pick like Earl (thank you mr. Larry Perkins)

Ken

& PS Skip, don't think by any of my postings that I have anything but appreciation and respect for what you post here. Don't know if some came across to you wrong. But as you know, I am not a writer but a Blues Man!!

Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 12/31/2017 18:33:41

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 12/31/2017:  19:53:14

Well drat!!  Tried that on the old lady...   "Go back and play some banjo, you'll do more good"... 

Don't know exactly how to take that??

chuckv97 - Posted - 12/31/2017:  19:58:36

Detour...for Ken youtu.be/a66iQx_iKko

5stringJim - Posted - 12/31/2017:  21:35:13

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

I posted Old Joe Clark. It doesn't entitle me to any respect or expertise, just shows (in my opinion) I am not a beginner.

---

OK. Get it now. Happy New Year. 2018.

pcfive - Posted - 12/31/2017:  23:31:39

quote:

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Originally posted by 5stringJim

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

I posted Old Joe Clark. It doesn't entitle me to any respect or expertise, just shows (in my opinion) I am not a beginner.

---

OK. Get it now. Happy New Year. 2018.

---

Condescending sarcasm that doesn't make sense. 

Willin - Posted - 01/01/2018:  04:08:42

Stopped by to post a backup CD inquiry. The title of the thread drew me in as I'm approaching midpoint of my third year learning. I'm reminded now why I pick more and read less. But of course, I can't help myself either.

I consider the rolls I'm learning to play, cleaner and faster each week and month, as the steam locomotive of bluegrass. It is the DRIVE. It is what drew me to learn to play.

I get Skip's point, and it is a VERY good one. Oddly just last night I'm reading the beginning pages of Janet Davis Splitting The Licks, which drives this issues home quite nicely. She lays out the melody notes and then moves to fill rolls and left hand "add-on's" As I can play the chords for a few of her examples, I'm drawn to the idea of turning to these pages rather than just picking someone's tab once I begin to learn breaks to some of the "usual suspects".

Thanks for the thread Skip. Very timely for me. I was raised on hard driving rock and roll of the likes of little Dickie Betts, the Allman Brothers and Boston, I probably would have started playing rolls as fast as I could at the start even if someone had me give the issue a good consideration. FMB anyone?

Sounds like there might be more than the popular way to get from A to B.

Bob

guitarsophist - Posted - 01/01/2018:  08:39:42

Playing music involves so much different syncopated stuff happening simultaneously that it is not possible to think consciously about all of it, especially if you are going to try to sing and play at the same time. Some stuff is in the front of the mind, some of it in the back of the mind, and some is so automatic that there is no mind at all. I'm a newbie on banjo, but I find practicing the roll patterns pretty useful. It's a way of getting some of the stuff into automatic mode so that the melody can be in the front of the mind, the chords in the back, the roll in muscle memory. I think that is why relying on TAB can be a trap. Too much stuff in the front of the mind!

pickin_fool - Posted - 01/01/2018:  09:00:29

" I think that is why relying on TAB can be a trap. Too much stuff in the front of the mind!"

what exactly do you mean by relying on tab?...tab is just another way of learning,,i am sure a lot of us wouldnt be playing if it wasnt for tab....by relying on it do you mean you cant play a set on stage unless you have the tabs in front of you?,..

if i learn something from tab, its in my memory banks and i no longer need the tab...

pcfive - Posted - 01/01/2018:  09:23:04

The post was NOT about relying on tabs. It was about roll patterns. It's hard to even say exactly what the point was.

Tabs can be useful, but should not be relied on too much, and the same for roll patterns.

This led to heated arguments and insults! But I don't think anyone knows why!

guitarsophist - Posted - 01/01/2018:  09:23:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by pickin_fool

" I think that is why relying on TAB can be a trap. Too much stuff in the front of the mind!"

what exactly do you mean by relying on tab?...tab is just another way of learning,,i am sure a lot of us wouldnt be playing if it wasnt for tab....by relying on it do you mean you cant play a set on stage unless you have the tabs in front of you?,..

if i learn something from tab, its in my memory banks and i no longer need the tab...

 

---

Sure, tab is cool as a way of learning the song.  That is why I said "relying on TAB can be a trap."  But my main point was that practicing roll patterns can help put some stuff on the back burner so that you can focus on the important stuff, like the melody or the singing.

Wow, people are kind of touchy in this thread! 

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/01/2018:  09:30:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5stringJim

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I posted Old Joe Clark. It doesn't entitle me to any respect or expertise, just shows (in my opinion) I am not a beginner.

---

OK. Get it now. Happy New Year. 2018.

---

Jim, Happy New Year to you! My grand dad was a stone mason from Dundee who turned Ozark farmer (ha both jobs dealt in stone if you ever saw Ozark soil). Listen to this song. It starts at the 1:00 mark. To my ear this girl has some Scotch blood in her.

video.foxnews.com/v/5698661829...how-clips

Ken

@5stringJim

Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 01/01/2018 09:36:36

pcfive - Posted - 01/01/2018:  11:12:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by guitarsophist

quote:

---

Originally posted by pickin_fool

" I think that is why relying on TAB can be a trap. Too much stuff in the front of the mind!"

what exactly do you mean by relying on tab?...tab is just another way of learning,,i am sure a lot of us wouldnt be playing if it wasnt for tab....by relying on it do you mean you cant play a set on stage unless you have the tabs in front of you?,..

if i learn something from tab, its in my memory banks and i no longer need the tab...

 

---

Sure, tab is cool as a way of learning the song.  That is why I said "relying on TAB can be a trap."  But my main point was that practicing roll patterns can help put some stuff on the back burner so that you can focus on the important stuff, like the melody or the singing.

Wow, people are kind of touchy in this thread! 

---

You are saying exactly the opposite of what the original post said. He said we should question the "dogma" that roll patterns are important.

I said that I find roll patterns very helpful. I did NOT say that all I do is play roll patterns, just that I find them useful. I mentioned that I learned from Splitting the Licks, which uses roll patterns. I said that dogmas can be wrong, but they also can be right.

For daring to question the great wisdom of the original poster, I was told that I can stay in my little dogmatic box if I want. 

Then I was called a contrarian, for defending the "dogmatic" status quo!

Talk about turning things around into their opposites!

Then it was implied that the great wonderful teachers here, such as banjophobic, all left or are leaving this forum because of not feeling appreciated. In other words, because of ungrateful people like me who sometimes question their great words of wisdom.

And all I did was wonder if we really should ignore roll patterns, just because the original poster finds them unhelpful and confusing.

pickin_fool - Posted - 01/01/2018:  13:05:10

no one is touchy at all...what i do find about threads like this is far too many people get hung up on rolls, patterns, tabs bla bla bla...a roll is a roll...its in earls book in order to get your right hand used to picking...this whole shebang is getting over analyzed...

do i start my students off with a roll?...big yes...learn what is called an alternating thumb pattern first...get it down pat..lets add a hammer on...lets add a slide..

wharever works to help a person learn to play is..and should be the bottom line..

if i had seen the word dogma anywhere in the scruggs book i would have sold my banjo and taken up the flute

warpdrive - Posted - 01/01/2018:  15:36:34

You guys will have to forgive my Ozark upbringing.
I thought "dogma" was like " Have you seen my dog,ma"?

Yes, this has been way over analyzed!
Warp!

chuckv97 - Posted - 01/01/2018:  16:52:04

...talkin’ about dogs and the Ozarks, have a listen : youtu.be/RMw2Fdylb4E

pickin_fool - Posted - 01/01/2018:  17:58:06

my karma just ran over your dogma...lmao

5stringJim - Posted - 01/01/2018:  18:25:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5stringJim

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I posted Old Joe Clark. It doesn't entitle me to any respect or expertise, just shows (in my opinion) I am not a beginner.

---

OK. Get it now. Happy New Year. 2018.

---

Condescending sarcasm that doesn't make sense. 

 

---

Don't knock my sarcasm, I'm quite good at at that.. However, there was zero sarcasm in that reply. I listened to your Old Joe Clark. It backed up my thought that you can't use the length of time on this Forum to imply your opinions on playing are more worth than Skip's.

You are now 9 years into your banjo journey. Listening to what you posted, you have good tone. You have all the notes. They are not all in the right place, however. The timing is all over the place, needs work. Fact.

You have time on your side, you just need to heed other folks' advice. Good luck with opening your mind a little.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 01/01/2018:  21:06:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5stringJim

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I posted Old Joe Clark. It doesn't entitle me to any respect or expertise, just shows (in my opinion) I am not a beginner.

---

OK. Get it now. Happy New Year. 2018.

---

Jim, Happy New Year to you! My grand dad was a stone mason from Dundee who turned Ozark farmer (ha both jobs dealt in stone if you ever saw Ozark soil). Listen to this song. It starts at the 1:00 mark. To my ear this girl has some Scotch blood in her.

video.foxnews.com/v/5698661829...how-clips

Ken

@5stringJim

 

 

---

Ken, I’ve spent some time down in the Ozarks.  If memory serves, you can get two, three good crops of rocks per year down there.  And, if you’re not careful, some slicker will come along and sell you both sides of the same acre . . .

Edited by - Rawhide Creek on 01/01/2018 21:08:38

Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/01/2018:  22:14:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by stanger

A very well done essay, Skip! Kudos, my friend!



Back in 1963 when I first began grasping the basics of bluegrass, the only teaching manual that existed for the style was a chapter in Pete Seeger's book. It was written by his brother Mike, and explained some of the basic rolls in tab.



So I learned them, sort of. I found 2-finger playing to be a lot more understandable, but I tried to incorporate the 3rd finger when I could.

It didn't make much sense to me until I bought the Foggy Mountain Boy's new recording "Foggy Mountain Banjo" early that summer. By then, I had been practicing the Scruggs rolls about 6 months or so. That record taught me how to use them.



I learned through sheer listening repetition. At first, I selected one song, and would play it over and over and over, trying to listen for just the melody notes. When I got those notes on my banjo, I would then repeat the listening process, trying to discover how to extract the melody from within the rolls, and how Earl would drop out to play only single notes, and how he transitioned from one roll to another.

At the same time, I began learning all the basic chord shapes on the fingerboard, practicing them by concentrating on my left hand, and playing just one or two different rolls.



Learning the left hand work on the neck allowed me to approximate Earl's melodies by jumping from chord to chord, much like a tenor player does, to get the melody. His other stuff was just enough for me to stitch the other stuff together.



As a result, I never did sound like Earl very much. But I was able to learn many of those songs on the record, and how to use his syncopation to emphasize the melody notes that existed inside the rolls.



Fast forward 35 years, and while teaching, I discovered that teaching the melodic style to a complete beginner made more sense to them because the melody is emphasized over the rhythm in that style. I learned melodics much later, and after becoming habituated to the Scruggs style, melodics were both more perplexing and much more counter-intuitive to me, so, for me, they were a long struggle.



But not so much for a stone beginner. For them, it's all equally new, so teaching the melody, which seems to be the element most beginners listen for, was no harder or easier than anything else.



Interestingly, the Scruggs tunes were just as hard for my students as they had been for me whenever I taught them to others.



I always liked to sing. That helped me a lot, The Seeger book gave me enough to use the banjo like guitar players use guitars- as rhythm instruments. Gaining a knowledge of chord structure, the key to any song, allowed my left hand to become smarter than my right for the 18 months or so I first spent playing the banjo.



So when I approached bluegrass, my job was much lessened. All I had to educate was my right hand, not both at the same time. Singing gave me an understanding of how to phrase the notes of a song. An instrumental is only using the instrument to express the melody of a song, not the voice.



So singing always helps a beginner, even if they hate to sing. Being shy over a person's singing ability can be a real drag when it comes to learning how to play the banjo. But even if one never sings a note, learning how to really listen carefully can teach someone enough to get a start.

regards,

stanger

---

Stanger, so thoughtful ... I look forward to coming back to this thread for you all. It's all good:

Early to bed and early to rise ... makes Jack a dull boy. 

Oh, shoot, honey, I messed it up: 

All work and no play, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise!

Tommy

Edited by - Tom Hanway on 01/01/2018 22:19:50

Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/01/2018:  22:40:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5stringJim

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I posted Old Joe Clark. It doesn't entitle me to any respect or expertise, just shows (in my opinion) I am not a beginner.

---

OK. Get it now. Happy New Year. 2018.

---

Jim, Happy New Year to you! My grand dad was a stone mason from Dundee who turned Ozark farmer (ha both jobs dealt in stone if you ever saw Ozark soil). Listen to this song. It starts at the 1:00 mark. To my ear this girl has some Scotch blood in her.

video.foxnews.com/v/5698661829...how-clips

Ken

@5stringJim

 

 

---

It's hard to come in late to a big thread, especially when one is teaching ukulele songs to grandkids. It has to be done. Still, I consider a fair question. 

I do my best to shoot straight. Passengers, I don't take. I got my first banjo training by Rev. Gary Davis, Earl Scruggs and Don Reno. It was the Rev. Gary training that got me closer to Reno and picking melodies any way that I could. Yes, I'm a guitar player.

Now, I agree with you. Scotch is a drink, and I'll drink to that. I love the sentiment, and I agree with you on general principle.

She's lovely and does the Scots proud. (Who cares whether she's Scottish, or Pictish, or Irish, or Welsh, or Cumbric (extinct language culture), or Cornish, or Manx, or Breton?)

I love her voice. 

Now, lads, let's get real, lets get nostalgic and sentimental ... let's get down to the brass tacks. Ready, boys?



Revisiting Meditations on the 'Irish' in Traditional Music

Beir bua agus Beannacht,

Tommy

Edited by - Tom Hanway on 01/01/2018 22:57:13

pcfive - Posted - 01/02/2018:  03:03:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5stringJim

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5stringJim

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I posted Old Joe Clark. It doesn't entitle me to any respect or expertise, just shows (in my opinion) I am not a beginner.

---

OK. Get it now. Happy New Year. 2018.

---

Condescending sarcasm that doesn't make sense. 

 

---

Don't knock my sarcasm, I'm quite good at at that.. However, there was zero sarcasm in that reply. I listened to your Old Joe Clark. It backed up my thought that you can't use the length of time on this Forum to imply your opinions on playing are more worth than Skip's.

You are now 9 years into your banjo journey. Listening to what you posted, you have good tone. You have all the notes. They are not all in the right place, however. The timing is all over the place, needs work. Fact.

You have time on your side, you just need to heed other folks' advice. Good luck with opening your mind a little.

---

I have great timing when playing with others, or with a metronome. I made that recording in a hurry, with no metronome or backup. It does not show anything about how I can play backup or improvise, which is what I do most of the time.

As you had to admit, it shows I have good tone. That took me many years.

I listened to several of Skip's recordings, and could not hear the tone well in any of them. I didn't have time to listen to all. 

I am sure that I can prove I have great timing and rhythm, if I get a chance. I hate to post music here because I hate the condescending sarcasm that inevitably results.

Edited by - pcfive on 01/02/2018 03:05:17

phb - Posted - 01/02/2018:  04:22:30

Seriously, whatever the reasons for your recording and its deficiencies, better stop discussing other people's recordings before you post one you don't need to explain in written. I guess you didn't have time to listen to the recording before you uploaded it? And didn't have time to even tune your banjo either? I know there is a lot of condescending sarcasm here at times if people disagree about their pet-theory. But some of the comments may actually be related to the very recording itself. This is coming from someone who has been supporting your right to insist on your views on roll patterns and your right to practice in any way you want and to question other people's advices.

Edited by - phb on 01/02/2018 04:24:39

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/02/2018:  04:43:10

Tom, Thanks for the link and this history lesson. I heard Ellan Vannin for the first time on your page- beautiful! Your ""Meditations"" caused me to think several things. 1st. the sentimentality of Ellan Vannin is similar to the sentimentality of many bluegrass songs like Blue Ridge Cabin Home. yeah this strikes a chord to me as it does to many I am sure... the tug of the heart to the place you feel most at home. So I wonder if this strain in our country/bluegrass music is a descendent of the Celtic music. Maybe it is universal to all musics but the tone and the tune make me think it might be one of the Celtic uncles of our country music. (am I using the term Celtic correctly?)

2nd: My wife and I were talking about wanting to see the Irish/Scott part of the world. I have been several times to England and once to Dublin - all on work. What I got to see was limited and I certainly didn't see the country side. The thought came to me to see the areas on a type of tour (self guided or otherwise) centered around the historical music of the area. Seems like that would give a lot of insight to the area well beyond the physical geography.

Again,thanks for your post.

ken

Tom Hanway

pcfive - Posted - 01/02/2018:  04:47:50

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

Seriously, whatever the reasons for your recording and its deficiencies, better stop discussing other people's recordings before you post one you don't need to explain in written. I guess you didn't have time to listen to the recording before you uploaded it? And didn't have time to even tune your banjo either? I know there is a lot of condescending sarcasm here at times if people disagree about their pet-theory. But some of the comments may actually be related to the very recording itself. This is coming from someone who has been supporting your right to insist on your views on roll patterns and your right to practice in any way you want and to question other people's advices.

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I listened to some of your recordings and I think it's safe to ignore your criticism of mine.

warpdrive - Posted - 01/02/2018:  05:04:26

As far as people not really not liking to post files on the hangout because of negative comments, for me, and just me, i think there comes a time, when you must put on your adult pants!
Yes, "you get judged" but that is life, your going to have it in all walks of life, and everybody that post something on the hangout, or anything that can be downloaded to the hangout, we all run the same risk.
Man i had to find out while trying to play out on the road, in front of legends, where my shortcomings in banjo were at, and let me tell you PC, "your getting off easy"!

With exception to yourself, pretty much everybody that post something to be listened to or viewed on the hangout, they all know one rule that has been the constant on here.

"If you Don't want to know how the Sausage is made, Stay the hell out of the Kitchen!"
just saying,
Warp!

FlyinEagle - Posted - 01/02/2018:  05:26:12

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

Seriously, whatever the reasons for your recording and its deficiencies, better stop discussing other people's recordings before you post one you don't need to explain in written. I guess you didn't have time to listen to the recording before you uploaded it? And didn't have time to even tune your banjo either? I know there is a lot of condescending sarcasm here at times if people disagree about their pet-theory. But some of the comments may actually be related to the very recording itself. This is coming from someone who has been supporting your right to insist on your views on roll patterns and your right to practice in any way you want and to question other people's advices.

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I listened to some of your recordings and I think it's safe to ignore your criticism of mine.

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I have no idea what you gain for yourself by continuing to post petty, confrontational nonsense in this thread.

I’ve followed this thread in horror as you have selfishly hijacked an excellent post authored by a well-respected teaching contributor here…At least the second time you have done this exact thing in about a month.  And that is a shame.

The notion that a teacher would stop posting here because they don’t feel appreciated is not correct, but they might stop posting because it is not worth the hassle to deal with the incessant, rude, and negative hounding from “certain posters”.  (You do know who people are referring to when you see “certain posters” used in this context, don’t you?). 

This means that a very small number of selfish and rude posters are ruining things for the large number of open minded students here, who are willing to listen to what others have to say, and maybe learn and improve from it. 

That is extremely unfair and immature, and it would be nice if you could see that.

This is a lot more direct than I am comfortable being, but this is really irking me because there are a lot of members on here who are grateful for the generous contributions made here by professionals.  Many students on here may not agree with everything posted, nor may we fully understand it (yet), but we don’t have to.  And we certainly don’t have to grind a thread to a halt because of it.  Just move on...or maybe blog about it on your homepage, or author your own threads.

Folks are trying to get this thread back on track, and I really wish you would allow that to happen. 

pcfive - Posted - 01/02/2018:  05:38:04

All I did was defend myself against phb's nonsense.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/02/2018:  05:46:48

jrawhidejr Hey Russ,
Crops of rocks.. ha..good one. Ozarks, Can't think of them without thinking of catfish and hushpuppies, bob white quail, farmers with some serious callouses on their hands, Stan the Man and the Cards, hills, and red clay roads, cedar trees, and maybe Budweiser :~).A great area with good people.
ken
Rawhide Creek

phb - Posted - 01/02/2018:  05:51:38

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

Seriously, whatever the reasons for your recording and its deficiencies, better stop discussing other people's recordings before you post one you don't need to explain in written. I guess you didn't have time to listen to the recording before you uploaded it? And didn't have time to even tune your banjo either? I know there is a lot of condescending sarcasm here at times if people disagree about their pet-theory. But some of the comments may actually be related to the very recording itself. This is coming from someone who has been supporting your right to insist on your views on roll patterns and your right to practice in any way you want and to question other people's advices.

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I listened to some of your recordings and I think it's safe to ignore your criticism of mine.

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I wonder whether you notice the irony of me supporting your questioning of other people's advice and being a non-reputable player in your opinion...

5stringJim - Posted - 01/02/2018:  07:11:08

quote:

I have great timing when playing with others, or with a metronome. I made that recording in a hurry, with no metronome or backup. It does not show anything about how I can play backup or improvise, which is what I do most of the time.

As you had to admit, it shows I have good tone. That took me many years.

I listened to several of Skip's recordings, and could not hear the tone well in any of them. I didn't have time to listen to all. 

I am sure that I can prove I have great timing and rhythm, if I get a chance. I hate to post music here because I hate the condescending sarcasm that inevitably results.

 

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So what you've just said is that OTHERS and a METRONOME have great timing, but you don't. You rely on them. You hate to post music here because people tell you what you are doing wrong. You need to look at your own attitude. You had a chance to prove you have great timing, and you didn't. No point in having a great tone if you can't play in time.

The two basics of music are:- melody and rhythm. I'm done.

pcfive - Posted - 01/02/2018:  07:38:15

quote:

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Originally posted by 5stringJim

quote:

I have great timing when playing with others, or with a metronome. I made that recording in a hurry, with no metronome or backup. It does not show anything about how I can play backup or improvise, which is what I do most of the time.

As you had to admit, it shows I have good tone. That took me many years.

I listened to several of Skip's recordings, and could not hear the tone well in any of them. I didn't have time to listen to all. 

I am sure that I can prove I have great timing and rhythm, if I get a chance. I hate to post music here because I hate the condescending sarcasm that inevitably results.

 

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So what you've just said is that OTHERS and a METRONOME have great timing, but you don't. You rely on them. You hate to post music here because people tell you what you are doing wrong. You need to look at your own attitude. You had a chance to prove you have great timing, and you didn't. No point in having a great tone if you can't play in time.

The two basics of music are:- melody and rhythm. I'm done.

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Let's keep the insults and condescension going everyone! No need to back off when you're having so much fun, and getting a chance to feel superior.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 01/02/2018:  08:16:24

No... Its an honest evaluation.. fair and above board. You shouldn't feel offended, if you didn't know, you can't correct/do better..



Be honest with yourself.. Take your guitar and try to play along with the recording.. As we advise all beginner level players. You need a good Bluegrass rhythm guitar to get you straightened out.. and will show/tell you where your getting off all the time..



Adoring friends, relatives, other lower level players don't know enough to/and won't be honest to tell the truth objectively..



Its up to you, you can take advice that you desperately need or you can continue and be relegated to low level status for all your playing days.. (at least you won't be by yourself, I know people that have "played" for 40/50 years and have never progressed beyond beginner level..)

Go back and really study the fine points in this thread,  Getting the tune/ sound, rhythm is more important than rote memorizing and physically getting every note in each roll, regardless of /or at the expense of everything else..

Thats the point of this thread.. the music is the important thing whatever methodology. If there is an easier way/options, they need to be known and discussed..

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 01/02/2018 08:26:57

pcfive - Posted - 01/02/2018:  08:54:45

quote:

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Originally posted by Kenneth Logsdon

No... Its an honest evaluation.. fair and above board. You shouldn't feel offended, if you didn't know, you can't correct/do better..



Be honest with yourself.. Take your guitar and try to play along with the recording.. As we advise all beginner level players. You need a good Bluegrass rhythm guitar to get you straightened out.. and will show/tell you where your getting off all the time..



Adoring friends, relatives, other lower level players don't know enough to/and won't be honest to tell the truth objectively..



Its up to you, you can take advice that you desperately need or you can continue and be relegated to low level status for all your playing days.. (at least you won't be by yourself, I know people that have "played" for 40/50 years and have never progressed beyond beginner level..)

Go back and really study the fine points in this thread,  Getting the tune/ sound, rhythm is more important than rote memorizing and physically getting every note in each roll, regardless of /or at the expense of everything else..

Thats the point of this thread.. the music is the important thing whatever methodology. If there is an easier way/options, they need to be known and discussed..

---

You know absolutely nothing about me except one quickly made recording. I never memorize songs, and have not practiced that particular song in years. I ALWAYS play with a metronome or recordings, and frequently play with others. NO ONE EVER notices any problem with my timing, not in recent years. I am not just talking about friends or relatives, but everyone I play with. People with bad timing are not welcome at any jam, and are not invited to play with others. I know for an absolute fact that timing is not a general problem I have. Only sometimes if I record a song I never practice, in a hurry, with no metronome. Which I should not have done.

So give up, please, because I am so tired of defending myself.

phb - Posted - 01/02/2018:  08:57:00

quote:Originally posted by pcfive:

Let's keep the insults and condescension going everyone! No need to back off when you're having so much fun, and getting a chance to feel superior.

Your 4th and 5th strings are out of tune and you slow down a lot the moment you hit that F chord. These are facts and typical of beginner-level playing. No condescendence at all. 

pcfive - Posted - 01/02/2018:  09:06:21

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

quote:Originally posted by pcfive:

Let's keep the insults and condescension going everyone! No need to back off when you're having so much fun, and getting a chance to feel superior.

Your 4th and 5th strings are out of tune and you slow down a lot the moment you hit that F chord. These are facts and typical of beginner-level playing. No condescendence at all. 

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Your opinion of what is out of tune means nothing, considering your recordings that I heard.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 01/02/2018:  09:09:26

People need to know the difference between criticism and a critique. A critique is supposed to provide non-judgmental, helpful feedback. We can all use some honest feedback or how are you going to learn?

phb - Posted - 01/02/2018:  09:34:46

quote:Originally posted by pcfive:

Your opinion of what is out of tune means nothing, considering your recordings that I heard.

So now you are also playing that silly game "my opinion is better than yours because my playing is"? I don't need to know anything about playing the banjo to notice the tuning and timing deficiencies in your recording. I was already alluding to the bad tuning in my comment on page 4 of this thread but was hesitant to point out clearly what I thought of it until you started commenting Skip's recordings.

kentr - Posted - 01/02/2018:  09:36:44

Since Skip was originally suggesting that the "Jeff Kimbal" approach
to learning was a possible better way to understand how to read and play
what has been written down in tab, the "standard" 8 note rolls included,

what's there to defend?

If you don't agree with Jeff Kimbal, that's fine. Don't use that approach.

If you have never seen, read, or tried that "approach", please find, read, and
consider what Jeff is saying.

If you still don't like what is said, don't use it.

Besides, if your mind is "made up" what's the use of confusing you with facts?
That's where "Dogma" thrives.

kent r

pickin_fool - Posted - 01/02/2018:  10:33:53

pcfive...you say you never memorize songs?...perhaps you could elaborate on that a little...it left me very confused...

Rich Weill - Posted - 01/02/2018:  11:11:40

I was offline over the holidays, and when I returned, saw that I missed one of the best threads in months. Hope it's not too late to get in on the discussion.



Music, by and large, has three elements: melody, harmony, and rhythm. (Banjo music, arguably, has a third: ornamentation -- which gives the banjo much of its distinctive sound -- but ornamentation, in my view, is part of melody, one way to find and accentuate the notes of a tune.)



Many here stress the importance of melody. I think this comes from the fact that playing the melody on a banjo, bluegrass-style, is not intuitive. I can remember, when I started the banjo in 2003, thinking, "Can you play an actual song on this thing?"



And yet, I believe that the hardest skill to acquire is good rhythm. That's timing plus flow/pulse. It's not just the skill of playing to a metronome. A metronome has perfect timing, but not pulse or flow. Rhythm is why music has downbeats, and music notation has measure lines to mark those downbeats. Rhythm repeats at regular intervals.



Without good rhythm, your playing will be noticeably lacking. Melody errors are rarely noticeable. Harmony errors -- playing the wrong chord -- are often unnoticed. Rhythmic error are always noticeable.



Of the three elements of music, argue all you want about which is most important -- but rhythm clearly is the least dispensable.



Why do I bring all this up? Because rolls are rhythm. Mastering rolls are the pathway to playing with excellent rhythm. Good rolls have both timing and pulse/flow. Good rolls repeat at regular intervals. Good rolls have recurring downbeats.



These rolls need not be "8-note" rolls -- but, for rhythmic purposes, should repeat every measure (or, for two-measure rolls, every two measures). I think of them as "8-note-and-rest" rolls, because they are a combination of notes and, possibly, rests comprising a single measure of music. Three-note "rolls" in 4/4 time build no rhythm skills, as no 4/4 measure is three 8th notes long.



For those who say, "I can't play a song with rolls," I say, "That's too bad. I can." Maybe I'm using different, and a wider variety of, rolls than you are. Alternating thumb roll? I never use it to play a melody. In fact, I rarely use it at all. The only time I ever use a T-I-T-M pattern is over strings 4-2-3-1 5-2-4-1 as a filler, mostly over a C chord. If you want to play melodies, T-I-T-M is not a worthwhile roll.



But a simple forward roll works to play pretty much any melody in the key of G. Find the melody notes on strings 2, 3, and 4, and play T-M-T-I-M-T-I-M -- with the first "T" and both "I"s playing those melody notes -- and you'll have a recognizable song. Not a fancy song. For that you have to mix many rolls together and add ornamentation. But it's the place to start.



Lots of rolls are "melody-friendly": the forward roll, the Foggy Mountain roll, the "tag" roll, the backwards-forwards roll (M-I-T-M T-I-M-T), and many, many more. Each accepts the melody in different places, with results that sound different. The trick is to let your ear absorb those differences. In time, the rolls become second nature. Your focus is not on the roll, not even just on the melody -- but on the sound you want the melody to make. By then, you will have internalized all of the sounds each roll can supply, and your fingers will perform the corresponding pattern more or less automatically.



Think of rolls as a means to an end. The end is not leaving rolls behind, but leaving the conscious playing of rolls behind. Look at the tab in Earl's book. The rolls are all there, measure after measure, even if he wasn't aware of them.

Edited by - Rich Weill on 01/02/2018 11:15:21

Mooooo - Posted - 01/02/2018:  11:36:34

quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

For those who say, "I can't play a song with rolls," I say, "That's too bad. I can." Maybe I'm using different, and a wider variety of, rolls than you are. Alternating thumb roll? I never use it to play a melody. In fact, I rarely use it at all. The only time I ever use a T-I-T-M pattern is over strings 4-2-3-1 5-2-4-1 as a filler, mostly over a C chord. If you want to play melodies, T-I-T-M is not a worthwhile roll.



 

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Lots of tunes and songs use this roll for melody. Most obvious is Cripple Creek and there's Devil's Dream among others...Dougs Tune....etc...

Edited by - Mooooo on 01/02/2018 11:37:06

rockyisland - Posted - 01/02/2018:  12:12:22

Great post, Rich. You said what I was thinking but wasn't able to express. Rolls exist "in the wild." Earl played what he thought sounded good, but a lot of what he thought sounded good, especially in backup (which is what we play the majority of the time), could be described in terms of one or two-measure roll patterns. Ralph probably even more so.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/02/2018:  12:20:38

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

So give up, please, because I am so tired of defending myself.

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So why do you defend yourself: you have already said you don't care what others think?

ken

Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 01/02/2018 12:21:07