SReynolds - Posted - 02/21/2013:  04:45:24

Can anyone tell me the proper use of a tuner?

One one hand, there is the crowd who clips the tuner to the peg head and there it remains, during the entire jam. It is used time to time during said event.

Then we have the crowd who simply do not believe in the use of a tuner what-so-ever and only employ their ears. They tune to one another and fiddle and fiddle with the tuner machines (pegs if you will) while they tilt their heads down towards the instrument. They do not encourage the use of a tuner.

It would be helpful if there was a warning on the building left of the door, just below the one informing us we can't carry guns.

I just don't get it.

beegee - Posted - 02/21/2013:  04:57:09

The electronic tuner has become a crutch for too many pickers. I only use a tuner to get my initial note to tune the other strings. I don't like using tuners to tune every string because in the real world, there are no perfect intervals and all tuning is relative. Ask any piano tuner and he'll tell you that the strings are always tuned slightly out of tune so that the chords will sound right together.

There is another problem that is seldom addressed: many instruments are not set-up correctly and when they are capoed(or capoed incorrectly)they tend to go sharp. If the banjo and guitar go sharp, the mandolin is left uncapoed and a few cents flat of the guitar and banjo which are both sharp, but may not be in tune together.

I don't think we'll see the end of electronic tuners. I used to use a 440 A tuning fork. I don't even know where it is now.

buckholler - Posted - 02/21/2013:  05:10:00

I'm a tune by ear kinda guy. Not because any one told me/ (or shamed me) not to, but I can just tell when its flat or sharp. I just use my tuner app on my Iphone and tune it once (I check it once a month or so) and I manually fix it by ear from their. If you cant hear the notes are flat or sharp yet use your tuner. Once you can hear the notes use your ear. I personally don't like the sight of tuners hanging off the banjo peg head. But thats my personal preference. I'd never tell anyone they could not use it, especially if they need it.

steve davis - Posted - 02/21/2013:  05:32:41

I like to tune to a tuner before a gig and any tweaks during performance are done by ear.
Tuner stays in banjo case after initial tuning.

I tuned totally by ear for 20 years and still can just fine,but like using the tuner,better.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/21/2013:  05:48:56

If your ear isn't good enough or "trained" enough to tune, use a tuner.  There's nothing wrong with using a tuner.  I usually tune with a tuner.   Then I "tweek" using my ear.

We have a few in our jams who "think" they can tune by ear and they are usually the ones who are the most out of tune. I hate to get in a jam with them because they won't admit they're out of tune, even when I compare their tuning to mine (which was tuned with a tuner).  Now, not everyone is like them, but..... when in doubt, use a tuner.

spittenkittens - Posted - 02/21/2013:  05:52:42

I think the "proper" use is up to the person who uses it. I have only been playing a few moths. I did not have a tuner for a few weeks and tuned by ear as I had for my guitar for years. They are cheap now so I got one and find it useful to double check my ear. Which ever way a person decides the banjo must be in tune. I have heard banjo tunes on youtube and the banjo is clearly out of tune and they don't seem to have a clue. When putting on new strings I like to use a tuner to bring it up to tune a little faster than just just by ear fro me. So for me it is a tool to check my ear, I often tune by ear and once in awhile if I can't seem to get it just right i use the tuner. Although I have not used other tunings it would be helpful to me.

BobbyE - Posted - 02/21/2013:  05:54:44

While a band is in performance mode I don't think they can reasonably stand around and tune to each others' instrument.  However, while the MC is talking or introducing the next song, a band member, with the use of a tuner, can quickly get in tune if he or she feels tuning is needed.  I don't play in a band, but if I did, I know my ears are not good enough to tune manually so a tuner would be in order for me.  And it is a way for everyone in the band to be close enough to render an in-tune performance.

Bobby

pickingfive - Posted - 02/21/2013:  06:20:18

Whether or not one uses a tuner is a matter of individual choice.  However, if the people to whom you are referring (tune to a fiddle and discourage the use of a tuner) do not have their instruments tuned to concert pitch, but rather to what ever frequency they decide that want, then you have to tune to them and not an electronic tuner in order to be tuned to everyone else in the jam. 

I do find it interesting that you have come across people who object to others using an electronic tuner.  I have to wonder why they make a "wrong or right" rule about something that is a matter of individual choice.  It is like telling someone it is "wrong" to collect stamps for a hobby - what hobby one has is a matter of individuality, and "right" and "wrong" do not apply.  I suppose the people to whom you refer could be wanting the jam to be like it was prior to the days of devices used for tuning instruments. 

oldplayer - Posted - 02/21/2013:  06:23:59

Tuners, I think have revolutionized jams and bands to be in tune with each other.

Folks who depended on their ear and fall short now have a tool to keep them in tune with everyone else. There's a big difference in being in tune and being in tune with

everyone else. For those who can hear A440 consistently are at the mercy of those who can't, and a little bit off is a lot. Get a couple of participants slightly out and you could

spend the rest of your time tuning in between something and something else and never get it right. For me, personally, it makes for a lot of aggravation to try to go along with

that scenario and lose your edge because of something that is so easy in this day and age to remedy. At least we're all going to be in the ball park.

Edited by - oldplayer on 02/21/2013 06:25:18

steve davis - Posted - 02/21/2013:  06:32:16

Nothing puts a band more quickly and accurately in tune as when they all use a tuner.
No "I'm right...no I'm right" arguments.

kmwaters - Posted - 02/21/2013:  07:13:52

This is funny stuff. Sherry - I had no idea there was such a thing as tuning denial!!

SReynolds - Posted - 02/21/2013:  07:54:33

That is what I get with the "no tuner" policy players. I can SHOW that I'm in tune capo or not and up the neck when I fret.

pickingfive - Posted - 02/21/2013:  08:15:42

That is what I get with the "no tuner" policy players. I can SHOW that I'm in tune capo or not and up the neck when I fret.

Now I understand better why they have the no tuner policy.  Unfortunately, lauding heaps of praises on the wonderfulness and ability and skill of such people seldom seems to satisfy their need to be admired and superior to everyone else.

 

SReynolds - Posted - 02/21/2013:  08:38:50

I don't really understand what your getting at and it really doesn't matter nor do I have time to figure out where you are going with that.

When **I** am told that I'm out of tune, I simply show them that I'm not. Please do not read anything into that. You sound like a talk show call-in. This is not a talk show/radio show. Nuff said.

BobbyC. - Posted - 02/21/2013:  09:07:41

I played with someone that claimed to have perfect pitch hearing. I would check him by playing a note on my piano and asked him to tell me which note I was playing, he rarely got it right, although close.

I can't see not using a tuner to get at least one string right then tuning the rest to that string, our band would have never been in tune together without using tuners. Yes, we could have tuned to each other, but I couldn't retune my piano to match up to the guitar player. Obviously I could retune my banjo and guitar but then I wouldn't have been able to use my piano.

steve davis - Posted - 02/21/2013:  09:09:42

You can set the tuner to the out of tne piano.

DeanT - Posted - 02/21/2013:  09:40:43

All the member in both bands I'm in use electric tuners. Tuning is never an issue. Accomplished as needed in seconds. No one has ever said anything about anyone of us being out of tune. I've also never met a tuner snob at a jam. The only time I've ever seen this an issue, is reading internet forums. Oh brother.

MBCrawford - Posted - 02/21/2013:  10:21:21

I use a electronic tuner, as I have aged my hearing isn't what it used to be for one, but another thing is when playing or jamming, if you change keys or use a capo it is sometimes hard to hear your instrument to tune it with all the other tuning or noise from people talking, even on stage if some one is talking I can't always be sure that I'm hearing the string correctly, so I use the tuner, I don't use it as a crutch but more as a check to make sure. At home while I'm picking alone I don't use one and I'm very close on the tuning because I can hear it better.

Glenn Tate - Posted - 02/21/2013:  10:35:20

Well, has anybody changed anyone else's mind in this topic. Do whatever you want, but I won't pick with you if your not in tune.

ejimb0 - Posted - 02/21/2013:  10:51:38

I have yet to notice an improvement in typical jam session 'group' tuning.. despite the almost universal  attachment of tuners on pegheads.......

drew-gurbach - Posted - 02/21/2013:  13:52:32

At our jams we usually all tune our middle G to the tuner...then the other strings off of that note.  Sometimes if I join in late I'll ask someone for a middle G, then I'll go from there.

Fathand - Posted - 02/22/2013:  00:35:04

I usually offer these people the use of my tuner in order to speed things up, they sometimes refuse. Tuning by ear or to one note is great and a skill everyone should have but it is very difficult to do in a room of 10 other people all tuning at the same time. Most of the modern tuners work from vibrations and not through a microphone so you can tune in a noisy room or do a touch up quickly and quietly during a song or between songs and not disturb others. 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SReynolds

 

 

Then we have the crowd who simply do not believe in the use of a tuner what-so-ever and only employ their ears. They tune to one another and fiddle and fiddle with the tuner machines (pegs if you will) while they tilt their heads down towards the instrument.

---

tkocason - Posted - 02/22/2013:  08:29:10

I've only been playing a little over 2 years now so I use a tuner. I was just in a workshop with Ross Nickerson and Jens Kruger, and neither of them used a tuner. They can tune a banjo very quickly by ear. Ross suggested we learn how to do it. He suggest to start with the bottom D string, (says it usually stays in tune or is easier to tune) then tune the rest off of it.
I hope to get there, will practice it, but I am tuner dependent for now. Not a major priority though.

Fishrrman - Posted - 02/22/2013:  14:52:55

Look at how many pros use a tuner now. That in itself should tell you what you need to know about tuners.

If the jam you're in uses tuners, by all means use one.

If the jam you're in frowns upon tuners, use it to "tune yourself up" quietly off to the side, and realize you may have to make an adjustment up or down, depending on how the group is (the whole bunch of them could be off-pitch).

Be aware that leaving the tuner clipped to the peghead for any length of time might result in an imprint on the finish. A common problem with clip-on tuners. Might be best to attach it, tune as needed, then put it back in your pocket...

SReynolds - Posted - 02/25/2013:  09:44:15

LOL....they did it again Sunday morning. I just don't get this............

We had set up in church and I was the first to tune. Yeah, I used my digital clip-on. All was well. The lead guitar player begins to practice for the service and I come in right behind him w/banjo. We play four bars and he stops us. He said word for word, "your banjo sounds terrible, you must be out of tune" My reply was that I just tuned it to the digital tuner and I'd be happy to detune it to match your guitar.

He walked over to the piano, twisted some knobs on his Fender and trodded back over to the mic and said it was him.

When will he learn........it's always him and his ear.

What was really funny was my wife asked me why he won't use a tuner. And the OTHER guitarist informed me that HE TOO needs to get one of them clip-on tuners.

lobulus - Posted - 02/28/2013:  18:56:35

As a professional instrument tech, I spend a lot of time tuning other peoples guitars, banjos, fiddles and whatever else they can throw at me.

Electronic tuners are wonderful things but, they have limitations.  Many of the clip on tuners that are so popular now a days have an accuracy of +/- 2 cents.  That's a 4 cent margin of error! Sometimes, they are not all calibrated to the same 440A. That being said, on a noisy stage, or when you need to get close quick, they can be a God send.  I think that the key is not to let the tuner replace but augment your own hearing.  Use the tuner to get close and then check it by listening.

There are also some things you can do to get the most out of a clip on tuner. 

Always keep fresh batteries in them.  The accuracy of these things starts to falter quite a while before the battery light comes on.  If you find that the tuner can't "find the right string".  try a new battery.

Where you clip the tuner to the instrument can make a difference. Try different locations on the headstock. Often, there will be a specific location that works best.  I find this is often a corner.

Often, I need to get an instrument in tune but I have to be very quiet.  In that case, I will play the string close to the neck or use the harmonic at the 12th fret.  This gives the tuner more of the fundamental frequency and less harmonics to listen to.  It will lock on the pitch you are trying to tune much quicker and give you better results. 

Bottom line, however, is that even if the tuner says the instrument is dead on pitch but your ear says otherwise.  You are not in tune.  Always check a couple of chords after you tune to make sure the tuner is right.  Tweak as needed by ear.

BJD - Posted - 03/01/2013:  06:24:56

Also, the clip on tuner adds weight to the head.  If you are using an open back banjo without a strap you'll end up fighting the tendency of the head to want to fall downward.  I use a tuner, non-clip on, to tune the middle G and tune the rest off that like some of the other folks posting here.  

steve davis - Posted - 03/02/2013:  03:59:37

I tune my banjos right to 0 on the tuner except for the B string which I tune 5 cents flat.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 03/02/2013:  05:14:41

As one of the previous posters said... You have to have a "good Quality" tuner and know HOW to use it correctly.. As I and others have posted many times.. Tuners have different and varying sensitivity levels in cents... You get what you pay for..
The cheap tuners seem great to a novice, because if it hits that (previously posted) + or - four or five cent area, it shows in tune, whereas a good tuner Will show it with accuracy,, How many posts have you read where There is a problem with a Peterson, but the 10.00 one is great? KAAACHING!!
A top tuner will let you know rite quick when there is a problem with strings or the instrument in a lot of cases..

telereactor - Posted - 03/02/2013:  08:23:47

I like using a tuner. I always start the jam by tuning my banjo with a tuner and then tune as needed by ear.

Joe Larson - Posted - 03/02/2013:  08:25:43

Eventually this topic will come around to the problem of temperament banjohangout.org/topic/253287 and what compromises have to be made so that our instruments will play in any key or even within the key as you change chords. USE THE TUNER. As for tuner accuracy I was only half joking when I posted on another thread that if God had intended for banjos to be in tune he wouldn't have put 4:1 tuning key on them.

j

oldwolf - Posted - 03/03/2013:  19:07:40

Not one soul (unless I missed it) mentioned intonation in this thread.

You can tune the individual strings correctly with the best of tuners, but if the intonation (bridge position) is not correct, the minute you start to fret strings , (especially higher up the neck) the more out of tune you become.
Gene Warner
retired repairman

Glenn Tate - Posted - 04/15/2013:  09:58:09

I suppose we all assumed, and you know what ASSUME stands for, that if you are up to playing in a jam, you should already know how to set your bridge to have the proper intonation. If you don't know that, what in the heck are you doing trying to get into a jam.

Fid - Posted - 04/15/2013:  12:12:06

Wow, the ironies, inconsistencies, physical impossibilities, and half truths can be one step short of hilarious.

First, having once source of tuning makes boatloads more sense than everybody, of every level of experience and pitch sensitivity, trying to be in tune.

Second, if you tune one string to pitch, then tune even one other string, it will cause the first string to go flat or sharp, and each string you retune will drasitcally affect every other string.  So, those who claim they can tune a banjo by tuning one string to pitch and the rest by ear - are not being honest - OR, they will be horribly out of tune with those who use the tuner.

Next, I don't buy the notion that digital tuners have a certain percentage of error - nothing audible, anyway.  In my experience, digital stuff is as close to "perfect" as anything can be - maybe in some cases, too close to perfect.  The chip in the tuner counts the vibrations of the string, I don't see how there can be any real error with a digital device miscounting that.  If you're talking analog, of course, yes, lots of room for error.  I have yet to hear any difference in the pitch of an instrument using different tuners.  There is, though, a HUGE problem with players whose instruments are not set up properly, or who have a death grip on their strings - pulling the thing out of tune, and, there are just crappy instruments that cannot stay in tune.

With certain instruments, there is a system called "Tempered tuning".  Pedal steel guitars and pianos being the most common.  With a pedal steel, the strings are constantly being pulled tight, and slacked - affecting the other strings' pitch, so tuning it straight up would be disastrous.  I can't explain why tempered tuning applies to a piano - maybe someday I'll do some research on that - but for now, I just don't know.

On my guitars, fiddle, banjo, and whatever else, I never have tuning problems, when I tune my instrument at the beginning of a gig or recording session, I never have to retune.  It makes me cringe when I see players tuning after every song - if you have to tune your instrument more than once a night, you should have it checked, because something is horribly wrong - with either the instrument, or your hearing mechanisms (ears, brain, eyes, preconceived ideas, etc.).  It also makes me cringe when something is the slightest bit out of tune - I can hear a bug crawling on the floor, and, I don't know exactly to how many cents out I can hear, but it's very small.

One of you mentioned that one of the reasons for this tuner snobbery is because of the need of some people to try to establish their superiority - I wholeheartedly agree with that one - and I've seen that on every level, in every way possible.  Not fun to play with such people.  I know in some parts of the country, it's hard to find folks to jam with, but not a good idea to sell yourself short, or have such a need to play with others that you allow yourself to be bullied by tyrants.

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/15/2013:  13:06:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fid

 

 

On my guitars, fiddle, banjo, and whatever else, I never have tuning problems, when I tune my instrument at the beginning of a gig or recording session, I never have to retune. 

It makes me cringe when I see players tuning after every song - if you have to tune your instrument more than once a night, you should have it checked, because something is horribly wrong - with either the instrument, or your hearing mechanisms (ears, brain, eyes, preconceived ideas, etc.).  

---

That first statement is incredulous,  and I want to know where you bought those instruments-. I have never seen or heard of  an acoustic instrument that one 'never has to tune'. For teh tuner aspect of this,unless everyone has perfect pitch, there's no way to always know you are dead on 'standard pitch'.  If you don't care about standard pitch, then its very possible to tune strings to themselves, and or tune the instruments so that they sound congruent. That way everyone is 'in tune', although not 'standard'. 

That second statement is,well, wrong.. Some of the worlds best banjos have and will go out of tune, without it being the fault of the instrument or the ear of the player. All of the worlds elite players tune their banjos during shows, and during recording sessions. Now its true that if the instrument goes significantly out of tune and   it happens very often during playing sessions, there could be something going on. But its quite normal for banjos to go out of tune, as well as all other acoustic instruments . Playing outside in windy conditions, direct sunlight, changing temperatures, string slippage,etc are all things that cause routine tuning changes. Wood moves for various reasons, and strings are attached to the wood.

Sometimes tuners are needed, as in noisy environments where you ear is being confused by ambient frequencies. Whatever the reason for a tuner, as long as its not causing you to miss playing time because you keep fooling with it, its just another tool to be used to help. 

Edited by - Banjophobic on 04/15/2013 13:22:47

Fid - Posted - 04/15/2013:  14:04:41

"Incredulous", really?  Short of extremes (direct sunlight - which I never allow, dropping the instrument, the player pulling the strings sharp, poor setup, crappy instrument, etc.), I see no reason why an instrument should be tuned more than once during a show, jam session, or recording session.  Yes, I see guys fooling with their instruments between songs, even nationally known players, but again, no reason for that.

"Second statement is, well, wrong" - again, REALLY?  It's not wrong, never has been with any of my instruments.  If it's wrong, then why are there many other players who will go a whole show or jam session without tuning?  I know I'm not the only one who doesn't have tuning problems, and who doesn't have to tune more than once per sitting.  At any jam session you go to, does every player there tune after every song, or every other, or even once a set?  I see some players fiddling with their tuning after every song, and others not, so no, I'm not wrong - you may not like my statements, or agree with me, but I'm not wrong.  Any instrument that needs to be tuned often during a session definitely does have something wrong - with the instrument or the player, or both.  I can't imagine "some of the world's best banjos go out of tune...", without something wrong - again, either the instrument or the player - makes no sense to me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fid

 

 

On my guitars, fiddle, banjo, and whatever else, I never have tuning problems, when I tune my instrument at the beginning of a gig or recording session, I never have to retune. 

It makes me cringe when I see players tuning after every song - if you have to tune your instrument more than once a night, you should have it checked, because something is horribly wrong - with either the instrument, or your hearing mechanisms (ears, brain, eyes, preconceived ideas, etc.).  

---

That first statement is incredulous,  and I want to know where you bought those instruments-. I have never seen or heard of  an acoustic instrument that one 'never has to tune'. For teh tuner aspect of this,unless everyone has perfect pitch, there's no way to always know you are dead on 'standard pitch'.  If you don't care about standard pitch, then its very possible to tune strings to themselves, and or tune the instruments so that they sound congruent. That way everyone is 'in tune', although not 'standard'. 

That second statement is,well, wrong.. Some of the worlds best banjos have and will go out of tune, without it being the fault of the instrument or the ear of the player. All of the worlds elite players tune their banjos during shows, and during recording sessions. Now its true that if the instrument goes significantly out of tune and   it happens very often during playing sessions, there could be something going on. But its quite normal for banjos to go out of tune, as well as all other acoustic instruments . Playing outside in windy conditions, direct sunlight, changing temperatures, string slippage,etc are all things that cause routine tuning changes. Wood moves for various reasons, and strings are attached to the wood.

Sometimes tuners are needed, as in noisy environments where you ear is being confused by ambient frequencies. Whatever the reason for a tuner, as long as its not causing you to miss playing time because you keep fooling with it, its just another tool to be used to help. 

---

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/15/2013:  14:28:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fid

 

"Incredulous", really?  Short of extremes (direct sunlight - which I never allow, dropping the instrument, the player pulling the strings sharp, poor setup, crappy instrument, etc.), I see no reason why an instrument should be tuned more than once during a show, jam session, or recording session.  Yes, I see guys fooling with their instruments between songs, even nationally known players, but again, no reason for that.

 

"Second statement is, well, wrong" - again, REALLY?  It's not wrong, never has been with any of my instruments.  If it's wrong, then why are there many other players who will go a whole show or jam session without tuning?  I know I'm not the only one who doesn't have tuning problems, and who doesn't have to tune more than once per sitting.  At any jam session you go to, does every player there tune after every song, or every other, or even once a set?  I see some players fiddling with their tuning after every song, and others not, so no, I'm not wrong - you may not like my statements, or agree with me, but I'm not wrong.  Any instrument that needs to be tuned often during a session definitely does have something wrong - with the instrument or the player, or both.  I can't imagine "some of the world's best banjos go out of tune...", without something wrong - again, either the instrument or the player - makes no sense to me.

 

quote:

---

 

---

Im speaking also a repair/set-up person in those comments, as well as player. Your statements seem to be a blanket statement of fact. Great banjos go out of tune sometimes, for many reason. That's statement based on real life. You must not have witnessed many world renound players from Bela Fleck, to Earl Scruggs to Sonny Osborne, to Jens, to everyone else you've heard about, tune their banjos. These guys play 'world renowned banjos when this happens. 

ALL acoustic instruments go out of tune and it is not always a sympton of  a 'broken banjo', nor is it an indication of 'bad ears'. Not unless you think the guys I mentioned have 'bad ears'  that is. In regards to this thread, it makes it appear that only folks with terrible ears or those with out of whack banjos need tuners. This is as far from the truth as it gets and is not based on reality for most players, pro and joe alike. 

You may 'never tune' or have a banjo that 'never needs tuning'. But you would be in the 1 percentile of banjo players who can make that claim,haha. Here's a video of Jen's during a show. playing a 10,000 Deering Kruger Model banjo. Neither he or the banjo is 'broken'. I wonder what it is he's doing there, while he gabs? Oh, and he's looking at a tuner. Why would he need that thing? 

Again, no hard intent in my post, just trying to 'keep it real' as they say on the street. 

youtube.com/watch?v=GuXlFgH_Zy4

Its just hard to take someone making big assumptions like anyone who uses a tuner, or tunes a banjo, must have a banjo that is broken, or they have bad ears. 

Edited by - Banjophobic on 04/15/2013 14:41:05

aspguitars - Posted - 04/15/2013:  14:30:51

I've played in, and watched many bands. One of the most annoying things to me is listening to people tuning up out loud. Especially when your instrument is amplified.  Nobody wants to hear people tuning, so the quicker you get in tune the better. If your ears are good enough and you can do it, then yes of course you can tune by ear.  Most of us however need a reference note to start from. It's just much more convenient to use a tuner. The five string banjo is normally tuned to a G chord, so you can hear if your banjo is in tune or not.

It could be worse, you could have a music stand with sheet music in front of you!

Fid - Posted - 04/15/2013:  14:31:24

Oh, forgot to say, my instruments have super powers, that's why I never have tuning problems or break strings.  Caveman style player playing super powered instruments - I don't know how that happened   .

Fishrrman - Posted - 04/15/2013:  14:51:43

Some instruments hold a tune better than others. Fact of life. Even properly set up and maintained, some instruments -- particularly banjos -- can be finicky when it comes to staying right in tune.

Also, some folks seem more perceptive to an instrument being "correctly tuned" than are others.

Having said that, I think the absolute BEST investment ANY player -- beginner or intermediate -- can make is to spend $25 (or less) and get an electronic tuner.

One of the greatest innovations in music yet….

Fid - Posted - 04/15/2013:  14:57:25

Oh no, I'm pretty sure I don't make "blanket statements of fact", what I'm trying to point out is that if a player is constantly tuning his or her instrument during jam sessions or shows, then something's wrong.  I usually say, "In my experience", "From where I stand", "I don't buy this or that", or, "I don't see any reason...".  Based on my experience, short of extremes, an instrument does not need to constantly be tuned.  Yes, there are exceptions and extremes, but generally, and for me, an instrument shouldn't need constant tuning - after every song, every other song, or even more than once a sitting.  I never said an instrument should never need tuning.

I don't have a problem with those who check their tuning after every set, again, I'm against constant tuning.  I do, though, get annoyed watching any show where one or more of the players on the stage starts tweaking his tuning, the PA, the position of the monitors, after every song - these are usually the guys who are never happy with their sound - always buying new gear, always tweaking something, and always complaining.

As for using tuners, I cannot see being in a situation where tuners should not be used - as it would be next to impossible to have 5, 6, 10 players being in tune with each other without using tuners.

It's possible we're saying almost the same thing.  Of course, there are some times when an instrument goes out of tune for no apparent reason - it's happened to me a handful of times over 30 years of playing music full time - but I'm talking about constant tuning.  I'm also "trying to keep it real", and the reality is, an instrument should not need constant tuning, and, my belief is that tuners should always be used.

quote: Originally posted by Banjophobic

   

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Im speaking also a repair/set-up person in those comments, as well as player. Your statements seem to be a blanket statement of fact. Great banjos go out of tune sometimes, for many reason. That's statement based on real life. You must not have witnessed many world renound players from Bela Fleck, to Earl Scruggs to Sonny Osborne, to Jens, to everyone else you've heard about, tune their banjos. These guys play 'world renowned banjos when this happens. 

ALL acoustic instruments go out of tune and it is not always a sympton of  a 'broken banjo', nor is it an indication of 'bad ears'. Not unless you think the guys I mentioned have 'bad ears'  that is. In regards to this thread, it makes it appear that only folks with terrible ears or those with out of whack banjos need tuners. This is as far from the truth as it gets and is not based on reality for most players, pro and joe alike. 

You may 'never tune' or have a banjo that 'never needs tuning'. But you would be in the 1 percentile of banjo players who can make that claim,haha. Here's a video of Jen's during a show. playing a 10,000 Deering Kruger Model banjo. Neither he or the banjo is 'broken'. I wonder what it is he's doing there, while he gabs? Again, no hard intent in my post, just trying to 'keep it real' as they say on the street. 

 

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Fid - Posted - 04/15/2013:  15:12:00

At the risk of sounding like a smartass, and I really don't mean it that way, maybe somebody could explain to me why one instrument will hold its tune better than another - why, other than reasons I've already stated.  I've worked on many stringed instruments, and when there's a tuning problem, there was always a physical reason.  I've seen Fender style guitars with shims between the neck and body - this is one glaring shortcut that will almost always cause not only problems keeping the guitar in tune, but will also affect tone - sometimes noticeably, other times not.  I opened up my old Gold Star to find the rods inside not snug.  I've heard experienced repair guys talking about shimming a banjo neck.  I saw a guy shim a string nut on a guitar - using cheap vinyl strips.  From my experience, shimming is never a good idea - you might do that to get you through a night, but get the damn thing repaired and set up properly as soon as possible.  If your banjo is not staying in tune, then for crying out loud, there is something wrong - something is not snug, not fitting properly, or not adjusted properly.  You may not want to take the time to check this stuff, or to spend the money to get it done by a reputable luthier, or you might just think your banjo can do no wrong - even though you're tuning the thing after every song, but as I've said ad nauseum nauseum, if your banjo doesn't stay in tune, something's wrong - instrument and/or player.  You can argue, and you can continue to tune your banjo all night, or, you can figure out why it (or your ears, brain, preconceived beliefs) is not functioning right - up to you  .

Edited by - Fid on 04/15/2013 15:15:45

o2playlikeEarl - Posted - 04/15/2013:  16:53:05

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwolf

 

Not one soul (unless I missed it) mentioned intonation in this thread.



You can tune the individual strings correctly with the best of tuners, but if the intonation (bridge position) is not correct, the minute you start to fret strings , (especially higher up the neck) the more out of tune you become.

Gene Warner

retired repairman

I don't think there is a such thing as 'perfect intonation' over all frets if you are using a conventional bridge... but that's one person's opinion.

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/15/2013:  17:27:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fid

 

At the risk of sounding like a smartass, and I really don't mean it that way, maybe somebody could explain to me why one instrument will hold its tune better than another - why, other than reasons I've already stated.  I've worked on many stringed instruments, and when there's a tuning problem, there was always a physical reason.  I've seen Fender style guitars with shims between the neck and body - this is one glaring shortcut that will almost always cause not only problems keeping the guitar in tune, but will also affect tone - sometimes noticeably, other times not.  I opened up my old Gold Star to find the rods inside not snug.  I've heard experienced repair guys talking about shimming a banjo neck.  I saw a guy shim a string nut on a guitar - using cheap vinyl strips.  From my experience, shimming is never a good idea - you might do that to get you through a night, but get the damn thing repaired and set up properly as soon as possible.  If your banjo is not staying in tune, then for crying out loud, there is something wrong - something is not snug, not fitting properly, or not adjusted properly.  You may not want to take the time to check this stuff, or to spend the money to get it done by a reputable luthier, or you might just think your banjo can do no wrong - even though you're tuning the thing after every song, but as I've said ad nauseum nauseum, if your banjo doesn't stay in tune, something's wrong - instrument and/or player.  You can argue, and you can continue to tune your banjo all night, or, you can figure out why it (or your ears, brain, preconceived beliefs) is not functioning right - up to you  .

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Nah, I doubt  anyone thinks you're being a smartarse, or at least I dont so , and I hope they dont think I am. We are just conversing on a forum. As to why instruments go out of tune, the reasons are many, some of  them include the reaction of wood to environmental factors. In a banjos case you have to realize its a non fix bridge, floating on a flexible membrane, with very light strings stretched out over a long thin neck. Those cosntruction aspects alone are a recipe for being out of tune more than some other instruments.

But you did make a few blanket statements  when you said anyone's banjo going out of tune more than once means the banjo is a POC, or needs serious work or their ears are bad. This simply is not true, even though your experiences are nearly 'perfect', from what you've said. There are simply times when a banjo will go out of tune and the reason are sometimes easy to spot, and sometimes its a mystery.

You can have a world class banjo, world class set-up, fantastic weather conditions, fresh strings and a fantastic player and there can still be some tuning going on. And if it happens more than once or twice a set, it still does not mean those things you stated earlier. The distinction should be made between this 'never never' stuff and real life. In real life, for most players, this 'never tune more than once a night or your banjo is bad or your ear is', or "you should never tune more than once at a gig' is to be blunt, is your own unique experiences and is not the norm.

So folks who do use tuners because the banjo will sometimes go out of tune, sometimes more than others, doesn't not mean they cant tune, have bad ears of crappy banjos. Even though thats what you repeated now a few times.  I have played professionally for about 30 years now and there are gig days, for whatever reason, where the banjo will not stay in tune as well as I like. No wont  have to tune every 2 minutes, but if I tune multiple times during a couple sets, its not an indication of banjo meltdown or my losing my ear skills. I can post about 200 video clips of world famous players, playing world class instruments, having tuning issues on stage. Its a banjo, and it will and can go out of tune for some reasons we can figure out and some that elude us. 

I've heard some others on forums claim 'my banjo never goes out of tune' and then proceed to say things like if your banjo does, your banjo is bad, or you need to learn to tune. Call it a pet peeve, and one I don't mind conversing about on banjo forums. If you say your instruments never go out of tune once you tune them, I wont dispute it. I'll just say that's highly in the minority of banjoists experiences and one I find hard to fathom. 

For everyone else, I'll say get a good tuner, use it wisely and expect your banjo to go out of tune sometimes for reasons you may or may not  get at the moment. It is a banjo after all...

Edited by - Banjophobic on 04/15/2013 17:45:58

Fid - Posted - 04/15/2013:  18:29:06

All of my posts are right up there, and I don't see anywhere where I said a banjo should "never" go out of tune.  I'm trying to make the point that if you are constantly tuning ("constant" being the key word), that's when you have a problem.  I said I don't have tuning problems, but I also said, "it's happened to me a handful of times", so yes, there are times when an instrument will go out of tune, just not constantly.  A handful of times over a period of 30+ years of being a full time, employed musician says that an instrument can be set up so that it holds its tune.

I'm not here to insult anybody's banjo, what I'm trying to do is offer help to those who spend half the night tuning.  Same goes for breaking strings - strings don't break for no reason, just as banjos don't go out of tune for no reason - speaking generally, not absolutely; saying once again, a banjo going out of tune more than once in a great while has a problem.  I ask again if anybody can explain to me why one quality banjo will hold its tune, while another won't.  I'll say again, I'm pretty sure my instruments don't have super powers, I only make sure they're set up properly.

As for world class players tuning, being a world class player doesn't make them immune to setup problems.  Mark Spitz is a hell of a swimmer, but I'd bet he couldn't tell you the mechanics down to the minute details of building or repairing a swimming pool.  It doesn't matter to me, or to this discussion, how many world class players have tuning problems, the cause of tuning problems is still the same - setup, instrument quality, the player, or any combination of.

I don't know why anybody would object to me wanting to help those who are tuning all the time.  There are many other things that players can expend their energy on, especially being that an instrument not holding its tune has such a simple fix.  If there is one thing that irritates me when I see a band or musician, it's to see him or her tuning all night.

You also seem to have misinformation on what I think about using tuners.  I said more than once that tuners should always be used, I'm only against tuning all night long.

P.S. While you may not be trying to be a smartass, I've seen you (banjophobic) more than once here being argumentative, even when you and the person were saying almost the same thing.

Edited by - Fid on 04/15/2013 18:41:39

John Steele - Posted - 04/15/2013:  18:38:46

>> With certain instruments there is a system called "Tempered Tuning".  Pedal steel guitars and pianos being the most common  

Any  instrument which employs a tuning in which intervals are intentionally moved away from "beatless" intervals is a tempered tuning.  

Therefore, your banjo, or any instrument with frets on it employs a tempered tuning. 

>>>With a pedal steel, the strings are constantly being pulled tight, and slacked - affecting the other strings' pitch, so tuning it straight up would be disastrous. 

You'd better tell that to Buddy Emmons, or Weldon Myrick, both of whom have tuned "straight up" for years. 

- John 

Edited by - John Steele on 04/15/2013 18:51:22

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/15/2013:  18:44:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fid

 

All of my posts are right up there, and I don't see anywhere where I said a banjo should "never" go out of tune.  I'm trying to make the point that if you are constantly tuning ("constant" being the key word), that's when you have a problem.  I said I don't have tuning problems, but I also said, "it's happened to me a handful of times", so yes, there are times when an instrument will go out of tune, just not constantly.  A handful of times over a period of 30+ years of being a full time, employed musician says that an instrument can be set up so that it holds its tune.

I'm not here to insult anybody's banjo, what I'm trying to do is offer help to those who spend half the night tuning.  Same goes for breaking strings - strings don't break for no reason, just as banjos don't go out of tune for no reason - speaking generally, not absolutely; saying once again, a banjo going out of tune more than once in a great while has a problem.  I ask again if anybody can explain to me why one quality banjo will hold its tune, while another won't.  I'll say again, I'm pretty sure my instruments don't have super powers, I only make sure they're set up properly.

As for world class players tuning, being a world class player doesn't make them immune to setup problems.  Mark Spitz is a hell of a swimmer, but I'd bet he couldn't tell you the mechanics down to the minute details of building a swimming pool.  It doesn't matter to me, or to this discussion, how many world class players have tuning problems, the cause of tuning problems is still the same - setup, instrument quality, or the player.

I don't know why anybody would object to me wanting to help those who are tuning all the time.  There are many other things that players can expend their energy on, especially being that an instrument not holding its tune has such a simple fix.  If there is one thing that irritates me when I see a band or musician, it's to see him or her tuning all night.

You also seem to have misinformation on what I think about using tuners.  I said more than once that tuners should always be used, I'm only against tuning all night long.

 

P.S. While you may not be trying to be a smartass, I've seen you more than once here being argumentative, even when you and the person were saying almost the same thing.

---

I guess its just the Sagittarius in me which tends to make me too blunt sometimes and my attempts at humor may not come off exactly like I like. But Im just replying to what you wrote, which is pretty plain to read. I dont say anything that I wont stand behind on a forum and if Im wrong I'll be the first to admit it. You've said this repeatedly:

" if you have to tune your instrument more than once a night, you should have it checked, because something is horribly wrong - with either the instrument, or your hearing mechanisms (ears, brain, eyes, preconceived ideas, etc.).  "

Ok, either you never said this or you didnt mean it. Its as plain as the type that is visible here. And you qualify these remarks with this:

"I never have tuning problems, when I tune my instrument at the beginning of a gig or recording session, I never have to retune. "

Which is pretty obvious to me as saying 'everyone else who isnt like me in statement two, has the problems I mentioned in statement number one'. So maybe you can stop saying those two things as if they are some undisputable truth and thinking Im all hot under the collar about it. Im not upset at all or trying to be a jerk. Im simply disagreeing with those two statements and i find no evidence to back them up from you, or any other player. 

Oh, and I enjoy a good argument, since no one sees the same thing the same way. Many times I learn from it-both from what they say and how I react to it. But I never back away from what I say  or why I say it.  But I never attempt to be ugly just for the sake of being,well, ugly.  Anyway, I totally do not see the logic or truth in those statements, in regards to this thread or any other like it. But its jsut a forum and nothing to get upset about, so im not. Sorry if my calling you on them upsets you. But if you cant debate on a forum, then whats the point?  You seem unable to see what you write and how it sounds when read it back. Oh well, maybe my reading comprehension is lacking..haha.

Anyway, its just a forum and no big deal-sorry to ruffle you. I'll drop out and go tune some more..

Edited by - Banjophobic on 04/15/2013 18:46:39

Fid - Posted - 04/15/2013:  20:34:38

Speaking of being argumentative - yikes.

The two statements you highlighted, I'm taking it you're saying I'm not being consistent.  The first one, I've said that many times, and I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything contradicting it.

The second one, same, pretty sure I haven't said anything to contradict that.  Maybe you're trying to split hairs, take everything to the letter of literal, don't know.  If you take "I never have tuning problems" - in 30+ years of steady playing, even after I said, "It's happened to me a handful of times" to the letter of literal, then yes, pick it apart to your heart's content, but any sensible person will see my point.

Yes, I am saying, said it over and over, that if you have to tune your instrument more than once a sitting, then something is wrong - that's what I think, based on my own experience - my own, and by watching other players - I know, you don't like that statement, and you've been trying to pick it apart, and trying to destroy it from the very beginning.  In "...I never have to retune" - that means in that sitting, not saying ever more in the history of owning and playing my banjo - if that's what you're trying to say - you might want to try again - nobody here is stupid enough to think that's what I was saying.

After seeing quite a few of your posts and exchanges, it's apparent you are one of those guys who likes to try to establish superiority, using cheap debate tactics - if you see me being irked, yes, guys like that irk me, and has nothing to do with "Calling me" on anything.  It's also apparent that you enjoy arguing, even when you and the other person aren't saying much, if any different.  And yes, you definitely get some kind of cheap thrill by being "ugly" as you put it.  Splitting hairs, being overly literal, arguing when there's little or no difference between your point and theirs, trying to point out inconsistencies when there are none, cheap insults, smart alecky comments - those are not innocent postings - those are designed to antagonize the "other guy".

I'll ask for the third time, why would anybody object to me helping players who are tuning all the time - why would that bother you?  From where I sit, it wouldn't bother any person who was actually and honestly here to help, it would only bother a person whose ego is driving what he says and does.  Again again, if a tuning problem is as easy fix - as I've said more times now that I can count, why would you want to argue with that?  It would be a matter of taking a banjo to a good luthier or tech, and having the banjo set up - but somehow in your mind, that's a bad thing.  If you don't agree with it, no problem, but you've been fighting me tooth & nail on my belief that tuning problems have a real cause - needing to discourage any new player, or even an old timer, from checking his or her setup and construction.  I'm sure that most will be intelligent and sensible enough to make his or her own decision on this subject - regardless of how vehemently you've been trying to discourage it.

So, ok, while you're tuning, I'll be playing  .

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fid

     

P.S. While you may not be trying to be a smartass, I've seen you more than once here being argumentative, even when you and the person were saying almost the same thing.

---

 

I guess its just the Sagittarius in me which tends to make me too blunt sometimes and my attempts at humor may not come off exactly like I like. But Im just replying to what you wrote, which is pretty plain to read. I dont say anything that I wont stand behind on a forum and if Im wrong I'll be the first to admit it. You've said this repeatedly:

" if you have to tune your instrument more than once a night, you should have it checked, because something is horribly wrong - with either the instrument, or your hearing mechanisms (ears, brain, eyes, preconceived ideas, etc.).  "

 

Ok, either you never said this or you didnt mean it. Its as plain as the type that is visible here. And you qualify these remarks with this:

"I never have tuning problems, when I tune my instrument at the beginning of a gig or recording session, I never have to retune. "

 

Which is pretty obvious to me as saying 'everyone else who isnt like me in statement two, has the problems I mentioned in statement number one'. So maybe you can stop saying those two things as if they are some undisputable truth and thinking Im all hot under the collar about it. Im not upset at all or trying to be a jerk. Im simply disagreeing with those two statements and i find no evidence to back them up from you, or any other player. 

Oh, and I enjoy a good argument, since no one sees the same thing the same way. Many times I learn from it-both from what they say and how I react to it. But I never back away from what I say  or why I say it.  But I never attempt to be ugly just for the sake of being,well, ugly.  Anyway, I totally do not see the logic or truth in those statements, in regards to this thread or any other like it. But its jsut a forum and nothing to get upset about, so im not. Sorry if my calling you on them upsets you. But if you cant debate on a forum, then whats the point?  You seem unable to see what you write and how it sounds when read it back. Oh well, maybe my reading comprehension is lacking..haha.

Anyway, its just a forum and no big deal-sorry to ruffle you. I'll drop out and go tune some more..

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Fid - Posted - 04/15/2013:  20:37:07

P.S.  I enjoy a good debate, but I very much don't enjoy arguing just for the sake of arguing.