John Steele - Posted - 04/28/2013:  09:12:23

Anyone who thinks two intervals tuned beatless represent an equal tempered tuning is mistaken. 

Anyone who thinks fretted instruments work on anything but equal temperament is mistaken, and thirdly, 

Anyone who thinks the subject is simple enough to rate a glib one-liner obviously places themselves above Sir Isaac Newton, Leonardo DaVinci, Pythagorus, the greatest minds of the age who struggled with this phenomenon, and needs to read a few books.

- John  

JoeDownes - Posted - 04/28/2013:  09:52:12

Yeah, the G to D should actually have a beating of about 0.9 cycles per second in ET, being slightly flat of the 3:2 ratio, but I don't think this two cent difference is really noticeable when I pick my banjo. There are only two intervals that should be beatless in ET: unisons and octaves.

Edited by - JoeDownes on 04/28/2013 09:57:06

phb - Posted - 04/29/2013:  01:09:05

I'm by far no expert in this but I understand that equal-temperament tuning provides an equally good (or bad) tuning for all 12 keys. When I tune the D and G notes beatless, this is not equal temperament. To make things worse, it is a non-ET tuning on an instrument with frets positioned for equal-temperament. However, it will provide a tuning that favours some keys - most prominently the key of G - and suits other keys less than equal-temperament would. In my opinion the beatless interval G-D suits most banjo music very well. Personally I don't play stuff that changes keys a lot and I am pretty sure to never have played in about half of the 12 possible keys.

ken61 - Posted - 04/29/2013:  05:25:50

LAdies and Gentlemen, this has been five pages of wonderful debate and interesting points of view.  But I can end the discussion with one offer!

If you BORROW my EARS for a week (and by the way I will not miss them !     They are , as I tell my banjo teacher--Just Painted on.

You will see immediately that electronic tuners are necessary !  (for some of us) 

Having two red SNARKS for ears would be just great!   But , alas, it just ain't so!

ken

Joe Larson - Posted - 04/29/2013:  08:57:33

My tuning method is similar to Dave Magram's. But in my case I will use my 1st string for reference since it seldom goes out of tune.

Tune the 3rd string harmonic at the 7th fret with the 1st string harmonic at the 12th fret.

Tune the 5th string open with the 3rd string harmonic at the 12th.

Tune the 4th string harmonic at the 12th with the open 1st

Tune the 2nd string at the 3rd with the open first AND at the 8th with the open 5th.

And if you have an open 5th it makes this whole process simultaneously more difficult and less important.

j

MOUNTAIN GOAT - Posted - 04/29/2013:  09:54:08

How many of you then mute the other strings you are not tuning? I find that the other strings can offset the tune of the one you are tuning. If I lightly mute the others with my fingers, the string I am tuning is much more accurate. If I don't mute the others, I have this cross talk between the strings that can make it very difficult to tune at all.

JoeDownes - Posted - 04/29/2013:  09:58:39

Ken, you can learn to hear the beating of two notes that are not properly tuned. Listen for a periodic 'warble' that gets slower the closer the notes are to being in tune. Start with two perfectly tuned G strings. Pick both G strings at the same time and listen to the perfect harmony of the two notes. They sound almost like one note, don't they?

Now strike the two G strings and slightly detune one of them while they ring. Tune it down rather than up. You'll hear a sort of periodic wavering that is caused by the notes being out of tune. This effect is called 'beat' or 'beating'. The beat of the two notes gets faster the more you detune the string. Now turn the tuner in the other direction to bring it closer to the right pitch, again plucking both G strings. The beat will become slower until it disappears. When you keep on turning the tuner button, the beat will become faster again. That's when you know you went too far. When that happens, just tune back down and try again to slowly turn the tuner until the beat disappears. Always tune up, it works better and it's easier.

It might take some to hear the beating and to be able to use this to tune, but everyone can learn to do this and it's not as difficult as you might imagine

Joe Larson - Posted - 04/30/2013:  07:54:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoeDownes

 

Ken, you can learn to hear the beating of two notes that are not properly tuned. Listen for a periodic 'warble' that gets slower the closer the notes are to being in tune. Start with two perfectly tuned G strings. Pick both G strings at the same time and listen to the perfect harmony of the two notes. They sound almost like one note, don't they?

Now strike the two G strings and slightly detune one of them while they ring. Tune it down rather than up. You'll hear a sort of periodic wavering that is caused by the notes being out of tune. This effect is called 'beat' or 'beating'. The beat of the two notes gets faster the more you detune the string. Now turn the tuner in the other direction to bring it closer to the right pitch, again plucking both G strings. The beat will become slower until it disappears. When you keep on turning the tuner button, the beat will become faster again. That's when you know you went too far. When that happens, just tune back down and try again to slowly turn the tuner until the beat disappears. Always tune up, it works better and it's easier.

It might take some to hear the beating and to be able to use this to tune, but everyone can learn to do this and it's not as difficult as you might imagine

---

The "beat" is caused by the 2 frequencies going in and out of phase. When the peaks line up - in phase - they combine to amplify the note; when they are 180 degrees out of phase they work against each other.

Edited by - Joe Larson on 04/30/2013 07:56:51

Rusty - Posted - 04/30/2013:  09:29:33

Use a tuner, individuals who scold on using a tuner are show offs (usually perfect pitch folks)!