pollywaffle - Posted - 05/01/2012:  01:26:03

If it's true I can see why since most 'effect' seems to be created by hammer-ons and pull-offs.

Coonskin - Posted - 05/01/2012:  03:28:43

Drop thumb is just one of many ways to frail the banjo...Doc Watson makes a point of describing how he doesn't drop...using only hammers and pulls.

The obsession with Roundpeak and the broad dissemination of generic playing "standards" are funneling people down a narrow road, but really, you can do whatever you can make sound musical.

RatLer - Posted - 05/01/2012:  04:58:09

Drop-thumb is just another technique. I've tried it, but never really got it to work for me...

chip arnold - Posted - 05/01/2012:  05:08:52

a lot of great music can be made without learning to play anything but the 5th string with your thumb, but even more can be done when you do learn. drop thumb is more than "effect". there are melodic sequences that can be accessed with drop thumb which would be either impossible of ridiculously difficult to accomplish any other way. when i began playing, i didn't drop my thumb at all and consequently, i became good at using left hand devices instead. i ended up with a left hand that was worked to death while my right hand coasted along doing only the basics. when i began using my thumb on more than just the 5th string, i was able to even up the work load between my two hands and broaden my playing.
opening up your use of your thumb is not really all that difficult. like anything else, there's the initial period of teaching your hand to do new tricks but all that takes is a little practice. the real key to it is simply beginning to hear/see/understand the ways dropping your thumb can be put into use. listen to and watch others and you'll start to see. if you use tab, pay close attention to HOW and WHY drop thumbing is used.
the value of drop thumb or any other skill depends on what you want to accomplish with your playing. there's no law that says you have to play a certain way. but ... yesterday my dear pal and i put a new timing belt on my subaru. i lacked one tool (to hold the engine from turning while removing the bolt in the end of the crankshaft, that held the vibration damper/pully on). we managed to come up with a work around and got the job done with the final result being as good as if we'd had that correct tool. but doing that part of the job was awkward, time consuming and difficult. it's far better to have a tool in your kit and never need it than to need it and never have it.

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/01/2012:  05:16:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by Coonskin



the broad dissemination of generic playing "standards" are funneling people down a narrow road

---

 ??  Seeing as we have access to more information on more playing styles than at any other time in history your theory would seem to fall at the first (appropriately narrow) fence.

And just out of curiosity...who exactly do you see as imposing these 'generic playing standards'? Not one of my banjo-playing friends plays the same way. Each has evolved their own style through a huge variety of influences and teaching context.

ZEPP - Posted - 05/01/2012:  06:10:58

Time to post this again, I guess .  It was recorded about 5 years ago in answer to a very similar question here. 

Cheers,

ZEPP

VIDEO: Right Thumb uses (click to view)

maryzcox - Posted - 05/01/2012:  06:23:27

When recording "needed time" on my Bowlin 1865 fretless-- made a decided effort not to drop thumb at all so that the slides , pull offs, and bends would stand out more on this banjo. IMHO-- fretless banjos seem to sound more true to their nature when solidly frailed:)
:) mzc

Edited by - maryzcox on 05/01/2012 06:24:15

stevel - Posted - 05/01/2012:  06:24:36

its just another tool in the toolbox (as RD Lunceford would say).

some tunes I use a lot of drop thumb, others none at all.

steve j. - Posted - 05/01/2012:  06:50:28

Im sure I dont do it correctly but,,,, I end up doing some version of it from playing travis picking on my guitar. It just slips in. the tone ,to me, is different and if that thumb is right there I use it.

vandergus - Posted - 05/01/2012:  06:59:03

I've gotten to the point where it's actually easier for me to play real notey parts with drop thumb rather than hammers and pulls. Part of the reason is that my right hand is tied more to the rhythm than my left hand. If I were trying to play the part with hammers and pulls, my left hand would be moving all over the place trying to hit the notes in proper time, which it doesn't do naturally. My right thumb, on the other hand (har har), is already moving in time with the eighth notes so it's much easier to get a smooth sounding lick. If you can play the drop thumb it usually means that your left hand doesn't have to work as hard so it may just come down to what hand you feel you have more control over.

Of course hammers and pulls and slides just sound better for certain songs so you'd play them regardless.

Fathand - Posted - 05/01/2012:  07:03:06

I Like to drop thumb but I know almost nothing of "Round Peak". I learned to frop thumb 30 years ago and only heard of Round Peak for the 1st time in the last year or so.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Coonskin



Drop thumb is just one of many ways to frail the banjo...Doc Watson makes a point of describing how he doesn't drop...using only hammers and pulls.



The obsession with Roundpeak and the broad dissemination of generic playing "standards" are funneling people down a narrow road, but really, you can do whatever you can make sound musical.

---

jduke - Posted - 05/01/2012:  07:24:18

Zepp,      Thanks for the video.  While I know the definition of syncopation, I’ve never been able to understand its clawhammer application. 

I don’t do a lot of drop thumb, but I always thought of it as a second note, not the melody note a half a beat behind.   That means that on slides, hammer-ons and pull-offs, I am producing a syncopated sound, at least when I’m moving into the melody note and not away from it. 

That’s why I like the BHO, I learn something almost every time I log in.

Jeff

ZEPP - Posted - 05/01/2012:  07:32:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by jduke

[...] the melody note a half a beat behind.   That means that on slides, hammer-ons and pull-offs, I am producing a syncopated sound, at least when I’m moving into the melody note and not away from it. 

---

Exactly!  

Cheers,

ZEPP

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/01/2012:  09:14:35

Most banjo teachers (in person, books, dvds) push the importance of "drop thumb" They want you to learn it and learn it early. Many think that the use of "drop thumb is what differentiates frailing (non-drop thumb) from clawhammer (extensive use of drop thumb). Personally I think using this technique takes away from the drive that I seek to incorporate in my playing. As such, I never use it.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 05/01/2012:  09:16:20

polly, to answer your question, yes, I don't drop thumb at all, and I still manage to play, a bit. It is not something that I advocate, and I do recognize it as a shortcoming. However, I still manage to have a lot of fun with my banjo. Even with limited technique, there is a lot of good music in that banjo. I try to make up for my limitations with rhythm and enthusiasm!

cbcarlisle - Posted - 05/01/2012:  09:16:44

Is It True That Some Players Don't Drop Thumb At All?

Oh, 'tis true, 'tis true! I've been playing banjer for fifty years and have never dropped a single thumb. At least, I still have the original equipment two.

It sounds like fun: it's just that my hand doesn't want to Do it, like frailing. To thine own hand be true...

stevel - Posted - 05/01/2012:  09:24:41

no loss of drive here.... and tons of drop thumbing throughout the whole song.



youtube.com/watch?v=UM5yzto2VQs

its better to choose not to drop thumb than avoid it because the technique hasn't been mastered yet.

YMMV

Edited by - stevel on 05/01/2012 09:26:28

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/01/2012:  11:38:34

There are no 'rules' as far as I can see...if someone prefers not to drop-thumb and it works for them that's a result. It's about how it fits together with the way you like to play. Personally I like the variety and flexibility that the occasional drop thumb gives me. And done smoothly and up-to-speed drop thumb has no limiting effect on drive and rhythm.

In reply to the comment that most teachers 'push the importance of drop thumb'. I disagree. 'Importance' is entirely subjective. It's just a technique that's there to be learned and then used or discarded by each individual according to what works best for them. A good teacher will pick up on that.

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 05/01/2012:  12:26:39

You can do things with drop thumb that you can't any other way. You don't have to drop thumb. There's nothing you really have to do on the banjo, but there are tried and true ways to get the sounds we admire.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/01/2012:  12:42:21

I teach Drop Thumb as Lesson Number 2, and I use a lot of rhythmic drop thumbs in my playing. There was a time when I also used a lot of melodic drop thumbs but my hands are getting too arthritic for them now. I neer was accused of lacking drive in my playing.

A person who knows how to drop thumb can choose to play without them. A person who does not know how to drop thumb does not have the choice. I try to teach in the manner that gives my students the most options for the future.

There are those who say that if you wish to emulate some historic player or historic style you have to learn how to play everything exactly as they did. I have nothing against someone taking the "historically accurate" route, but rarely do I hear anyone who succeeds at re-creating the sound of the player(s) they so admire.

Carlos Benavides - Posted - 05/01/2012:  13:55:19

To give a technique proper credit you have to invest the practice time to do it well. I see how some folks might give up on drop-thumb whilst it sounds weak and unconvincing. These folks might say drop thumb is an unnecessary tool in their toolbox. Fair enough, it's a free world. But I also see that by taking the time to play drop thumb well, then you've already discovered it's usefulness just by doing it right. So the question of "do I need it, do I not need it?" kind of falls apart.

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/01/2012:  14:15:13

"Never, never use drop thumb until the rhythm is very solid, which may take many months or years. Drop thumb is a hinderance if it gets in the way of your rhythm. Right often it's many years to learn to drop thumb and retain rhythm. Far better to 'double thumb' and use that plus the left/fingering hand to add some more rhythm. Do not let anyone sucker you into attempting the so called "drop thumb" for many many months."


From the website of Mr. Dwight Diller

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/01/2012:  15:19:56

The sound I wanted when I started to play was what I heard Pete Seeger quote his younger brother Mike as calling "double thumbing while your frailing" which, as far as I can tell is rhythmic drop thumb clawhammer. It never crossed my mind to NOT drop my thumb when I was learning - it was all part of a whole.

It hasn't hurt my drive and rhythm one teeny bit. In fact, I would say my playing generally emphasizes rhythmic drive, and the thumb work is absolutely integral to that. I rarely pay much attention to anything but the most bare bones skeleton of the melody, and embellish it with driving rhythm, syncopation and rhythmic variation.

majikgator - Posted - 05/01/2012:  15:41:51

No you don't have to, can it sound good with out it, sure - should either of these two points be used to avoid learning something you find difficult, i guess you could but i didn't and there is an awful lot that particular technique allows you to do. It's kind of like saying do i need to hammer on or pull off, slide, etc.

Drop thumb diminshing drive? i kind of get what you are saying here but i don't think i would use the word drive and still wouldn't agree.

i wouldn't feel really bad about not being able to do it if you tried and tried and tried and just couldn't. Some people tried and tried to learn clawhammer and couldn't and took up finger picking instead and turned out to be really good at finger picking.

Be patient with yourself, maybe just do some tunes with just one or two drop thumbs in it to start, good luck.

Bard - Posted - 05/01/2012:  15:55:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

...

From the website of Mr. Dwight Diller

---

probably shouldn't have read that, cause its screwing my head up big time. Unlike others, his teaching clawhammer banjo it so different from others, it doesn't even seem to coexist together. Please help...

minstrelmike - Posted - 05/01/2012:  15:58:08

Whether drop thumb slows you down or not is sort of up to your fingers.

Many folks actually find double-thumbing shukka shukka easier and more rhythmic than boom-shukka.

And if that's at speed and driving, then dropping the thumb to a different string ain't no different than putting the 'boom' finger on a different string.

imo.

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/01/2012:  16:06:09

Bard:

I am pleased that my posting of quotes from Mr. Dwight Diller's website is screwing up your head big time. It is meant to. Now, let me be very clear.......I do not know Mr. Diller and will make no attempt to speak on his behalf.I will only tell you what experience tells me. From my perspective, the approach of Mr. Diller is very different than the main stream approach to clawhammer banjo. Mr. Diller stresses rhythm, rhythm, rhythm (I could go on, but you probably get the point). He sees drop thumb for beginners as a detriment, and I agree. Of course the mainstream clawhammer community thinks just the opposite. They feel that teaching drop thumb from the beginning is essential. Judge for yourself, think for yourself, question everything.

Bard - Posted - 05/01/2012:  16:44:41

@JTRoberts

it was not only your quotes, but also what I read on this page from his website.

Thinking for myself, I already noticed after couple of weeks only using my thumb on fifth string, it is hard to move the thumb to the inner strings, and am afraid if I wait any longer, it will only be more difficult to learn. I do like the sound you get with drop-thumbing though.

blockader - Posted - 05/01/2012:  16:49:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

The sound I wanted when I started to play was what I heard Pete Seeger quote his younger brother Mike as calling "double thumbing while your frailing" which, as far as I can tell is rhythmic drop thumb clawhammer. It never crossed my mind to NOT drop my thumb when I was learning - it was all part of a whole.

It hasn't hurt my drive and rhythm one teeny bit. In fact, I would say my playing generally emphasizes rhythmic drive, and the thumb work is absolutely integral to that. I rarely pay much attention to anything but the most bare bones skeleton of the melody, and embellish it with driving rhythm, syncopation and rhythmic variation.

---

exactly. i think you are speaking to the tendency amongst anti-drop thumb folks (certainly in this thread) to equate drop thumb clawhammer with melodic clawhammer. thats not true, obviously, but whatchagonna do? zepp's video explains it perfectly.

-justin

banjoholic - Posted - 05/01/2012:  18:27:40

Can you play all the banjo music you want to play without drop thumb?

If yes, then you don't need to learn to drop thumb.

If no, then you need to learn to drop thumb.

My own answer, several years ago now, was no. So I learned to drop thumb.

aeroweenie - Posted - 05/01/2012:  20:01:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoholic

Can you play all the banjo music you want to play without drop thumb?

If yes, then you don't need to learn to drop thumb.

If no, then you need to learn to drop thumb.

 

My own answer, several years ago now, was no. So I learned to drop thumb.

 

---

ditto

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 05/01/2012:  20:08:34

There are some tunes, like West Virginia Gals, that just won't sound right without it.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/01/2012:  21:02:43

Is It True That Some Players Don't Drop Thumb At All?

You bet !!!   They fall into two camps:

1)  Those who can (and choose not to)

2)  Those who can't (and sometimes claim they choose not to).

The only thing to decide is to which group you'd like to belong.

********************************************************************************************

You often hear that drop-thumbing will foul up your rhythm, but there are too may players who disprove that myth.

You often hear that learning drop-thumbing early will foul up your rhythm, but again, there are too many players who disprove that myth.

 ************************************************************************************************

If it's true I can see why since most 'effect' seems to be created by hammer-ons and pull-offs.

Applied judiciously, drop-thumbing, in addition to simplifying certain passages adds rhythmic vitality, complexity, and variation.  Wade Ward was an archetypal example of this.  Dwight Diller himself said that ;"Wade Ward had something going on that was just scandalously good", in his 1996 Banjo Newsletter interview with Bates Littlehales. 

****************************************************************************************************

I've heard plenty of good banjo-playing that didn't incorporate drop-thumb or employed a limited version of the technique, so "No" one does not need to drop-thumb.  If you do decide to voluntarily limit your playing, just be sure it is in fact voluntary.  That applies to any technique. 

pollywaffle - Posted - 05/01/2012:  22:54:54

I didn't even know there were anti-drop thumbers out there. I don't use it much but adds a great variation and the THWACK factor is unbeatable. Just my opinion.

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 05/01/2012:  23:06:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by pollywaffle

I didn't even know there were anti-drop thumbers out there. I don't use it much but adds a great variation and the THWACK factor is unbeatable. Just my opinion.

---

 I think you're on the right track.

I knew about  -but didn't bother with-  drop or double-thumbing for the first few decades I played, but eventually I discovered that there were some effects that you simply can't get without them..........and there were times and places where I wanted to use those effects. 

So I learned.    And feel like a more complete player now, with a couple of more tools in my kit.

~Pete

wahr - Posted - 05/02/2012:  04:03:59

In the end drop-thumb is just another tool to cut a quarter note into two eighth notes. Personally, I like the motion when dropping the thumb. It simply feels good in my right hand. And it adds another flavour, playing a drop-thumb occasionally instead of a bump-ditty. My advice (as a complete amateur): It's better to learn drop-thumbing no matter how long it takes, before you decide not to use it. In my case it took several months to drop-thumb without losing the rhythm, but now it works fine for me. The main key was the awareness that you have to drop the thump but pull off with the whole hand. And that it's no problem to touch other strings with the thumb when you bring the thumb in position to the string you want to play (cannot describe it better).

By the way, I don't know any Banjo teacher who discouraged someone from playing a drop-thumb. Maybe the opinions are divided between those who preach to learn drop-thumb from the beginning and those who tend to introduce it later to their students. For me it's an academic question.

Edited by - wahr on 05/02/2012 04:08:34

RatLer - Posted - 05/02/2012:  04:49:52

OK....I'll choose "R.D.'s" Camp #2.....Those who can't (and sometimes claim they choose not to)...  

stevel - Posted - 05/02/2012:  05:51:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bard

@JTRoberts

 

it was not only your quotes, but also what I read on this page from his website.

 

Thinking for myself, I already noticed after couple of weeks only using my thumb on fifth string, it is hard to move the thumb to the inner strings, and am afraid if I wait any longer, it will only be more difficult to learn. I do like the sound you get with drop-thumbing though.

---

ding ding ding!  we have a winner.

i avoided a lot of drop thumbing in the beginning... trying to find work arounds and replacements for the technique... all along fooling myself into the mindset that i didn't need to learn drop-thumbing... one of the staples of old-time banjo technique.

in the end that approach set me back several months.  i had gotten so comfortable playing without it, that when it came time to use it, i had to slam on the breaks and retrain my right hand.  i had to slow my music down to a crawl just to get those notes in there.  it irritated the heck out of me.

this is why i emphasize learning that technique right from the beginning.  you don't know what you don't know.... which is why preaching its un-importance is a detriment to the banjo community.

lastly, i have yet to find a way to get "snaps" on the back-beat without drop-thumbing.

YMMV

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/02/2012:  08:31:34

As I've said before:

Drop-thumbing is not that hard- Bluegrassers and folk guitarists do it all the time!!!

I see two things that lead to drop-thumb failure.

1)  Some teachers have their students hold the hand in a *rigid* claw and "hook"

     the 5th string.  This sort of hand position is not conducive to drop thumbing as

      those students have a hard time getting the thumb to the inside strings.

2)  A lot of beginners are told that drop-thumbing is this extremely difficult advanced

     technique that shouldn't even be attempted until one has played bum-ditty for at

     least a decade and studied with a banjo guru in the Tibetan Himalayas.  Seriously,

     they are psyched out of drop-thumbing in the beginning and form a mental

     block.

     To me, it's kind of like teaching a child to swim before he's developed a fear of the water.

     It's the same thing with "all those tunings!!!"

     Yes, you should have your basic rhythm straight first (bum-ditty or whatever), but that shouldn't take a lifetime.

steve j. - Posted - 05/02/2012:  08:59:42

Im wondering if mythumb "dropping" is not really used at all like it is supossed to. I fear I may just be switching between claw and thumb lead, without knowin whats what hmmmm,

bd - Posted - 05/02/2012:  09:37:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve j.

Im wondering if mythumb "dropping" is not really used at all like it is supossed to. I fear I may just be switching between claw and thumb lead, without knowin whats what hmmmm,

---

As far as I can see from your videos it looks (and sounds) right to me, Steve. For whatever my opinion's worth.

steve j. - Posted - 05/02/2012:  10:00:26

bd your opinons worth plenty! thanks

Crump - Posted - 05/02/2012:  11:00:13

Try it. If you can't do it at least you made the effort. I think a lot of people are just too lazy to attempt to master drop thumb and are trying to justify in their own minds why they don't need to make the effort. You can play a piano with one finger but using both hands and all fingers produces better results.

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/02/2012:  11:07:41

Crump:

To describe the folks who are not jonesing to play drop thumb as "too lazy to attempt to master drop thumb, and are trying to justify in their own minds why they didn't make the effort" is over the top. Your analogy of the piano does not apply...very different instruments.

Crump - Posted - 05/02/2012:  11:13:13

I hesitated to post that because I figured it might stir people up, but, I stand by my opinion and of course respect yours too!

stevel - Posted - 05/02/2012:  11:18:12

the piano analogy does apply here.

its no different than a guitar player who only learns power chords. sure, you can play a lot of songs that way, but you won't be able to do all the things and get all the sounds someone who can play full chords can do.

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/02/2012:  11:39:51

Crump:

Thank you for your response. Don't you think opinions should be based on something rather than pure conjecture?

Stevel:

Being able to "do all the things" (including drop thumb) and "make all the sounds" is far far far less important than playing with duende..........the indescribable feeling that envelopes and stirs the soul. The captivating feeling that moves you with the sweet yet sad experience of life. The musicians who convey this experience are not the ones who have the most complex technique.

Crump - Posted - 05/02/2012:  11:52:09

I didn't plan to start a fist fight here but since you came out swinging......................what makes your opinion more "conjecture-less" than mine? This isn't the first discussion on this riveting topic - there have been many - and I've read through several posts. Typically I do not respond because it produces posts like yours. I will stand by my original conjecture-filled opinion - I think people should at least try to learn this important technique and if they can't get the hang of it, go ahead and get that "captivating feeling that moves you with the sweet yet sad experience of life" some other way.

stigandr5 - Posted - 05/02/2012:  11:57:21

Shoot, it's music. There's no right way to do it.