Matt Buckley - Posted - 05/07/2012:  13:01:43

quote:

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Originally posted by brudford

I speak of influences only, how important or slight they may be I do not know because none of us were there .

 

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 I agree.  But this is a very different idea than to state that Africans "introduced syncopation and body movement".  Your words, not mine.  If you had said that Africans may have influenced syncopation and body movement, then I wouldn't have taken exception.

Cheers.

Matt

brudford - Posted - 05/07/2012:  14:40:26

Matt , They are not my words , I stated that ,"  The African introduced more syncopation and body movemnet to the British Isle dances . " More is the key word , I do not think I infered anywhere that syncopation nor body movement did not exist in  old world dance until it met-up with African dance . Just more of it was introduced from African Americans . Thanks

Edited by - brudford on 05/07/2012 14:41:26

Matt Buckley - Posted - 05/07/2012:  15:07:33

quote:

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Originally posted by brudford

Matt , They are not my words , I stated that ,"  The African introduced more syncopation and body movemnet to the British Isle dances . " More is the key word , I do not think I infered anywhere that syncopation nor body movement did not exist in  old world dance until it met-up with African dance . Just more of it was introduced from African Americans . Thanks

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 Good point.  Somehow I missed the "more" bit.

Matt

minstrelmike - Posted - 05/07/2012:  15:54:58

This is enough to make me give up drop thumb myself ;-)

ceemonster - Posted - 05/07/2012:  17:33:22

sheesh, here is yet another chance to analogize again from the alternating-bass thumbpicking guitar scenario. amazingly, or on second and more depressing thought perhaps not so amazingly, there are icky racial or racialist aspects to the debate over the origins of alternating-bass thumbpicking in rural american guitar styles. and there is an embarrassing sort of forced and strained phenom with some white players and historians who twist themselves into almost-comical knots to find non-african roots for it, without coming right out and saying they're uncomfortable with the idea of this innovation coming from, or at least having shared roots with, african or african-american sources. not all of the merle travis, chet atkins exponents are like this, but you do see it. i recently picked up a cd in my local Amoeba Records by a fantastic Kentucky alternating bass guitar thumb-picker in the merle travis/chet atkins style. and the liner notes of this thing featured a long blurb by him, plus a long thing by some kentucky music historian both of which between the lines were oozing indignation at the idea that there could be black roots for this way of playing. it came from parlor music (though they don't actually prove that). it came from WOMEN, who got it from parlor music (that one was really a hoot---they must really be in a tizzy to give females credit for originating a guitar style)....er, boyz, parlor music came from minstrelry and black ragtime as much as from europe.....

the evidence as to the origins of for alternating-bass guitar thumb-picking is very similar to the current record as to both two and three-finger banjo picking and clawhammer drop-thumb banjo playing: bottom line, we don't know 100% for sure. however, the evidence strongly suggests african/african-american innovations as a prominent factor to say the least in the evolution all these styles. yes, "classic" banjo playing is in the mix, parlor banjo, but their tributaries are not only european....there are hundreds of years where the slavery, civil war, post-civil war, and minstrelry/vaudeville migrations of african players around the regions we are talking about were wiped out of the record. some of that is only now starting to be pieced together by musicologists, with pretty fascinating results...

we can certainly say this much with confidence---if you are a travis or chet atkins style guitar picker, you and and the person who taught you may not literally have learned this from african-americans directly, but african-americans in the style of Arthur "Blind" Blake, Bill Broonzy, etc., are part of your musical heritage no less than Merle or Chet. and you ought to be proud to say that rather than twisting yourself in knots to find some way to say otherwise. it is the same with drop-thumbing and two/three-finger banjo picking. what is the problem here? it's like the slang phrase, "homosexual panic," that gay guys use when straight guys get into a flutter about the horror of having any commonality with, ya know, sissies.......... well, this version is, "african panic." sure, there's the equally asinine extreme on the other side of, hi, africans invented evvvvvvvvvrything! but there is a frantic quality to the amnesia about this stuff that still prevails among a lot of exponents of white country music forms..... it is a disease, our nation's disease. it is getting better, but the fever is not all the way down.

minstrelmike - Posted - 05/07/2012:  17:42:11

alternating bass

Is that like: large-mouth small-mouth  large-mouth small-mouth   large-mouth small-mouth ...?

erikforgod - Posted - 05/07/2012:  18:02:03

the evidence as to the origins of for alternating-bass guitar thumb-picking is very similar to the current record as to both two and three-finger banjo picking and clawhammer drop-thumb banjo playing: bottom line, we don't know 100% for sure.



MrCeemonster - I have to admit...I kinda had to wind my way through your comment there as yah kinda lost me from the get go with the alternate thumb/bass Merle Travis Chet Atkins comparison thing, but I think you were trying to connect the two styles and say they both have african american roots. I cant speak for guitar styles but I do kinda disagree with yah on one point. I think we can pretty much safely assume with 100% surety that african americans who gave us the origins of the banjo, also drop thumbed as well. If you refer back to the earlier part of the thread Mr Mark Johnson posted a yout-tube link of a Senegalese Mandinka gentlemen from the Cassamance region of southern Senegal playing an Akonting and clearly...well...playing drop-thumb. I would say if this gentlemen learned it. he learned it from someone, who learned it from someone, who learned it from someone...so I guess like Mark said...how far back do you want to go? Unless if their is a historical link that says shows that west africans learned it from somewhere else...I would say it has its origins right there...drop-thumb that is.

Edited by - erikforgod on 05/07/2012 18:05:27

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/08/2012:  02:18:04

quote:

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Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad

quote:

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Originally posted by mbuk06

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I've found the BHO to be a wonderful democratic place to exchange information and learn. But it is an exchange oiled by civility and integrity. Continuing to post the same lame generalisations masquerading as supposed 'truths' after they have been shown to be ill-informed is both rude and a pointless waste of time and to anyone with genuine intentions would be a clear indication that it's not other folks who need help understanding. Golden rule: If you wouldn't say it offline don't say it online. 

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 Heh.

When I used to help moderate a motorcycle forum  -which, as you can probably imagine, was a bit more rough-and-tumble than BHO-  the forum owner defined acceptable online behavior by saying, "If it would get your teeth kicked out in a biker bar on a Saturday night, then don't say it here, either!", and promptly banned guys who ignored his warning.

Trolls like Roberts were generally just ignored after their first few posts, and if that didn't do the trick and they kept at it long enough then the hammer came down.

~Pete

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 Haaha brilliant! I like your motorcycle forum version. Kind've succinct and to the point.

countryman99 - Posted - 05/08/2012:  05:30:47

Like the lady asked simply enough......Is it true, that some players dont Drop -Thumb?

Answer.....YES.!

Mac

captbanjo - Posted - 05/08/2012:  05:43:29

Man, you leave a lot to be said! 

Wayne

captbanjo - Posted - 05/08/2012:  09:17:28

Here's a man with a lot of rhythm playing drop thumb:

youtube.com/watch?v=RqDsf0AcMvQ 

Wayne

steve j. - Posted - 05/08/2012:  09:48:14

Mr Zepp, is wonderful to watch and listen to. Ive watched this vid many times, workin on it. I think he could play with gloves on. He just looks so relaxed too. like its just totally natural. Just watching his vids you can learn much.

captbanjo - Posted - 05/08/2012:  09:51:18

Agreed. His videos have been on youtube since the early days and he was one of the reasons I ended up buying a clawhammer style banjo.

What I enjoy most about him is what you referenced; his ability to lighten up and then play more dynamically. Listen to the end of the first run through Spotted Pony and you can hear him do this.

Wayne

brudford - Posted - 05/08/2012:  15:48:52

youtube.com/watch?v=ABhlHz-20zs  Ceemonster , I love the topic of alternating / thumb/ base ,Travis style picking . Just recently I have been playing some old country blues picking . Watch this video of Stafan Grossman, a great guitar player from New York City ,about 3/4 through he talks about taking lessons  from Rev. Gary davis in the 1960's . He States , " that alot of these turn of the century guitar players only played with the thumb and index finger . " I put the song he is teaching to memory . Another song Freight Train written by Elizabeth Cotten another African American wrote this song when she was 12 years old in 1905 . Also played guitar with just two fingers . After doing some reasearch I realized that both these guitar players began playing banjo in the late 19th century and when African Americans gave up the banjo in favor of the guitar they simply adopted their banjo style to the guitar . They were playing two finger thumb or index lead on the guitar . I tried playing these tunes in the style of two finger banjo , could not do it . I have to use my thumb and three fingers . The full sound they get on the guitar with just two fingers is amazing . You speak of alternating base , The song in the video uses a reverse alternatin base , where the treble strings are played first before alternatin the base . Very interesting subject . Theses early banjo/guitar players pre-dated Travis picking by 40-50 years . Although I'am not sure if Travis picking is even similar . Thanks .

Edited by - brudford on 05/08/2012 15:51:11

brudford - Posted - 05/08/2012:  15:58:41

youtube.com/watch?v=IUK8emiWab...e=related  This stuff is great . Here is the link to Elizabeth Cotten playing Freight Train.There is a good close-up of her left picking hand . Clearly she is using her thumb and index finger ,just like thumb lead banjo . Also she called this Cotten picking herself . Don't be confused she is left handed playing the guitar upside down without changing the strings , Can be a little confusing visually . So the base and treble strings are not where they would be on a left handed guitar .

Edited by - brudford on 05/08/2012 15:59:55

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/08/2012:  16:00:23

Eric,

   I would also like to point out that alternating bass was a component of the guitar playing that came up into Texas from Mexico in the (late?) 19th century. The most obvious use is in Mariachi where there is an instrument devoted to the alternating bass notes in much the same way as bluegrass bass playing, and country bass playing. You can hear alternate bass in the playing of both Leadbelly and Missippi John Hurt - who were more "songster" than blues singers. Libba Cotton is, of course, one of the major influences on the folk scare of the 60s. Many people still refer to 3 finger guitar as "Cotton Pickin'"

brudford - Posted - 05/12/2012:  16:52:07

Oldwoodchuck , I did not know that . I was thinking about the many influences that old Mexico may have had in regard to their musical history since it was settled hundreds of years before North America . Influences on the music of Mexico, European Spanish , native Indians of Mexico , the Inca's ,the Myans ,African slaves , no British Isle influences ?  No wonder I never heard Cluck Old Hen when I was down there a couple of years ago .

Edited by - brudford on 05/12/2012 16:53:16

ceemonster - Posted - 05/13/2012:  00:17:44

[I think we can pretty much safely assume with 100% surety that african americans who gave us the origins of the banjo, also drop thumbed as well.]

one can't "assume" and have "100% surety" at the same time. the two are mutually exclusive. "100% surety" when we know for stone-cold certain, rather than assuming. i also was not talking about whether africans and african-americans played this way. i was talking about, whether african and african-american innovations were the roots, or at least prominent in the roots, of white americans playing this way. those are two different points. what i was saying, in my syntactically convoluted manner, is that RE: the roots of white americans playing this way, while stone-sure 100% certainty is not there, the evidence at the least strongly suggests, African or African-American playing innovations as at least a prominent source. and i was referring to, two-finger and three-finger picking and drop-thumb in the banjo context, and alternating-bass thumb-picking on guitar....

brudford: yes, i have very much enjoyed reading, watching, and listening to stefan grossman as well as studying some of his tablature. other wonderful students of the rev. gary davis include ernie hawkins and roy bookbinder. i believe rory block spent some time with the reverend as well. they are not the white folks i am referring to who are shocked, shocked, simply SHOCKED to think there may be a link between the alternating-bass thumbpicking of chet atkins and merle travis, and the alternating-bass thumbpicking of africans and african-americans as exemplified by arthur "blind" blake, the reverend davis, and many other folks you are really missing out on if you are an oldtime music lover and haven't heard.....:)

ceemonster - Posted - 05/13/2012:  00:37:04

on african syncopation and changes in scots-irish dance forms both in the amerikay and in ireland (i don't have as much knowledge about scotland)....i assure you that the dance forms that came to ireland from the people the irish called (and trad historicans still call) "the dance masters" [ basically impoverished tutors to the gentry who went over from the european continent and schooled the irish upper classes in european reels and quadrilles and stuff, which forms filtered down to the farm folk] did have a lilt of a kind, but most certainly did not have the booty-shaking shimmy that has been in the most dynamic irish ceili music since the early 20th century.

and where that came from was, back to ireland from america, via the emigrant irish musicians who were tearing up the dance halls in chicago, boston, new york. the irish listening public was absolutely electrified by this music, most particularly in the traditional music strongholds of the rural west. it revived traditional irish dance music during one of its many moribund phases (its history definitely has peaks and valleys).

and where THAT came from was......ragtime, blues, ragtime-blues, and jazz, jazz, jazz! and guess where THAT came from...:)

the irish went wild about jazz and swing, and their ceili dance music changed forever. (for the better, it must be added.) it is a documented fact that many ceili-band musicians in ireland doubled as jazz-band players for swing dances during this period..... unfortunately, like hitler, who viewed both accordions and jazz as badges of degenerate races and banned both, the irish catholic church ruined all of this fun on both the swing-jazz front and the irish ceili front for a long time with the dreadful Dance Hall Acts of 1935.....but swing eventually won the day, as we must hope it always shall....:)

ceemonster - Posted - 05/13/2012:  00:42:10

oh, and regarding that booty-shaking irish shimmy i mentioned.....it would be very familiar to readers in this forum given that almost the identically calibrated syncopation is present in the music of round peak, and other southern applachian styles from virginia and the carolinas including the hammons family/wade ward syncopation, and almost identically calibrated syncopation is also present in the southern piedmont applachian raggy-blues guitar playing.....syncopation-wise, there are differences, but they are hairs-breadth differences. tommy jarrell did not mind letting people know where he got it, at least in part....

RG - Posted - 05/13/2012:  01:08:39

Originally posted by ceemonster

"and where THAT came from was......ragtime, blues, ragtime-blues, and jazz, jazz, jazz! and guess where THAT came from...:)"

ceemonster...slightly off topic from the original post, but in regards to jazz, jazz, jazz, there was a large number of non African-American musicians (including those of African American, English, French, German, Italian, Jewish, Latin American, Scottish and Irish descent, basically the racial makeup of the population of New Orleans at the time)  who helped formulate what became commonly know as "Dixieland Jazz" and is now known as "traditional jazz"...one of the most influential being "Papa" Jack Laine who Louis Armstrong credited with changing the time signature of 1880's dance orchestra music to a "raggedy" (Louis' term) rhythm before Buddy Bolden.  Jazz grew out of the European brass dance band tradition and had many early contributors of all races, resulting in a wide dissemination and cross-pollination of musical ideas that combined to create what we now know as "jazz"...once more, as in OT music, the origins of a musical genre are much more complex than the common misconceptions that have been perpetuated over the years...so the obvious answer to your guess is not all that obvious when viewed from a historical perspective...

Edited by - RG on 05/13/2012 01:10:08

majikgator - Posted - 05/13/2012:  13:20:54

But i digress

RG - Posted - 05/13/2012:  15:21:04

Yes Gator, but digression makes the world so much more interesting...

mojo_monk - Posted - 05/13/2012:  15:33:29

Come on guys...EVERYBODY knows that the 6000+ Haitian immigrants who arrived in Louisiana after the Haitian revolution of 1804 are the grandparents of jazz. . . .

-Sean

Edited by - mojo_monk on 05/13/2012 15:33:58

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/13/2012:  16:15:58

I would say they are among the grandparents of Jazz.

But What I really wanted to post was a minor point about Papa Jack Laine and Buddy Bolden. Armstrong insisted Laine was first, while Jelly Roll Morton supported Buddy Bolden for that role. Since neither was ever recorded all we have is the memories of those who lived long enough to get quoted in articles. Morton and Armstrong disagreed on almost everything having to do with New Orleans Jazz, and we actually have no proof one way or another.

One thing both men would have agreed upon however -- There never was a genre black musicians called "Dixieland". That was a label given to the music by whites who listened to "The Original Dixieland Jazz Band" - A group of white orchestra pit hacks who read stiff arrangements off badly written charts, and who, by dint of their hue, managed to get recorded before the real Jazz bands could, because the record companies were not hiring black musicians in 1916.

The musicians who really played jazz were predominently black and they called the music New Orleans Jazz or just Jazz, because they had few fond memories of "Dear Ole Dixie" and the slave economy that supported it. It didn't take RCA and Columbia long to discover that no one cared about the colour of the players on records, and the Original Dixieland Band was soon forgotten, their pathetic attempts at jazz buried by the real masters of the form - King Oliver, Jelly Roll Morton, Louis Armstrong, etc.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 05/13/2012 16:17:35

RG - Posted - 05/13/2012:  17:10:15

Originally posted by mojomonk

"Come on guys...EVERYBODY knows that the 6000+ Haitian immigrants who arrived in Louisiana after the Haitian revolution of 1804 are the grandparents of jazz. . . ."

Yep Sean, so true and a fact that was never in dispute...always interesting to me that "jazz" originated in such a tiny localized region and not among other areas of America that had high populations of African-Americans, but then those populations were largely segregated from other races and they didn't live in the multi-cultural "gumbo" that was New Orleans...love me some musical cross-pollination, so cool what happens when it happens...

Edited by - RG on 05/13/2012 17:16:33

Supertone - Posted - 05/13/2012:  18:31:02

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

record companies were not hiring black musicians in 1916.

 

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I'd be curious to know more about this. Were there no African Americans recorded in 1916 specifically or no recordings by black musicians in general during the early years (pre 1916) of the recording industry?

Evan C - Posted - 05/13/2012:  19:48:22

quote:

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Originally posted by Coonskin

Drop thumb is just one of many ways to frail the banjo...Doc Watson makes a point of describing how he doesn't drop...using only hammers and pulls.



The obsession with Roundpeak and the broad dissemination of generic playing "standards" are funneling people down a narrow road, but really, you can do whatever you can make sound musical.

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I'm not sure how the second part is relevant to anything here. As others have suggest, drop-thumbing is just another technique among others. You might play some songs without a single drop thumb, other songs might have them all over the place. Contrary to what the above poster seems to be implying, the way to get yourself stuck on a narrow road, if there is such a thing, is to avoid learning techniques like drop-thumbing. Learn to do it and use it as you see fit. Despite the fact that you can do most things with hammer-ons and pull-offs, there are sequences of notes that are not very feasible using those two techniques. I'm rather new to banjo and still I've had several situations where I'm trying to play a song from a recording, having a bit of trouble with a certain lick, and then it all comes together when I realize that they've got a drop-thumb in there. With that realization, the lick becomes straightforward.

Do you need to drop thumb? Of course not, but it's easy as pie to learn and will open up doors for you.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/13/2012:  20:59:57

The only "Black" recordings I know of from the early days of the recording industry were by whites who did dialects and wore black face on stage. It was a different world back then. It was only in the 1920s that some of the record producers discovered there was a market for material by black artists (and country artists for that matter - the earliest "country" songs were recorded by a classically trained tenor) and started making field trips to record black artists.

I suggest you look up "Harry Smith" or the Harry Smith Collection - either on Google or go to the Smithsonian/Folkways website and read about how much musical history was preserved at the last minute by the early traveling recorders who would set up shop in town and put out the word they were buying performances. Most of them were looking to make a buck - and they did, right up until the Depression got too bad. The Library of Congress was involved too and some of the best banjo and fiddle performences were saved by people like Alan Lomax

RG - Posted - 05/13/2012:  21:17:25

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

"One thing both men would have agreed upon however -- There never was a genre black musicians called "Dixieland". That was a label given to the music by whites who listened to "The Original Dixieland Jazz Band" - A group of white orchestra pit hacks who read stiff arrangements off badly written charts, and who, by dint of their hue, managed to get recorded before the real Jazz bands could, because the record companies were not hiring black musicians in 1916."

While the "dixieland" statement is mostly true (it was common vernacular of the time, however most musicians, African-American or white, simply referred to it as "jass" and later "jazz") That's a pretty presumptuous statement since Nick La Rocca, the cornet player in the ODJB, was the composer of "Tiger Rag" which is one of the most recorded jazz compositions in history...hardly the work of a "white orchestra pit hack who read stiff arrangements off badly written charts"...but believe the myth if you want, for some folks it's easier that way...BTW, the ODJB released their first recording in 1917 & Jelly Roll Morton recorded and released his first tracks in 1918 just 1 year after the ODJB...additionally, Bert Williams was signed to the Columbia Record Company in 1906 and by 1911 was one of their biggest stars...as usual, the real story is far more interesting than the myth and based in part on economics as well as race issues...for a further, more in depth essay on early African-American recording artists based on the historical record rather than heresay, check out this interesting essay from the Library of Congress...

lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/ihas/loc...ault.html

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Originally posted by Evan C

"Do you need to drop thumb? Of course not, but it's easy as pie to learn and will open up doors for you."

BINGO!!!!

Edited by - RG on 05/13/2012 21:32:07

Supertone - Posted - 05/13/2012:  22:31:24

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

The only "Black" recordings I know of from the early days of the recording industry were by whites who did dialects and wore black face on stage. It was a different world back then. It was only in the 1920s that some of the record producers discovered there was a market for material by black artists (and country artists for that matter - the earliest "country" songs were recorded by a classically trained tenor) and started making field trips to record black artists.

I suggest you look up "Harry Smith" or the Harry Smith Collection - either on Google or go to the Smithsonian/Folkways website and read about how much musical history was preserved at the last minute by the early traveling recorders who would set up shop in town and put out the word they were buying performances. Most of them were looking to make a buck - and they did, right up until the Depression got too bad. The Library of Congress was involved too and some of the best banjo and fiddle performences were saved by people like Alan Lomax

---

There were plenty of recordings by African American artists that pre date the "Race" records that started coming out in the '20s. I second RG's suggestion to check out the LoC link that was provided in the previous post.

Redhotjazz.com is also a useful resource for info and sound recordings from the early years of jazz and blues. There are a number of black musicians represented on that site that recorded before the 1920s. (The first black jazz band recorded in 1917-redhotjazz.com/wswjssbnd.html)

Jubilee groups such as the famous Fisk Jubilee Singers, Tuskeegee Institute Singers etc made their first recordings shortly after the turn of the century.

I highly recommend Doug Seroff and Lynn Abbot's Out of Sight (amazon.com/Out-Sight-African-A...578064996) and Ragged but Right (amazon.com/Ragged-but-Right-Tr...m_sbs_b_1) to anyone interested in black pop music of the late 19th and early 20th century. This is an incredibly important (and relatively lesser known) period of American vernacular music.

Edited by - Supertone on 05/13/2012 22:35:30

majikgator - Posted - 05/14/2012:  10:01:12

It was illegal to drop thumb to dixieland if you called it that but ok if you called it jazz.

Drop thumb may be easy to learn but a lot of people struggle hitting those inside strings at the same tempo they can sticking to the 5th string so don't feel bad if that's you, you aren't alone but no point in giving up either.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/14/2012:  13:21:20

Bert Williams was a white performer who did a blackface act.

I did fail to mention the black religious groups that were recorded early but they hardly would be referred to as  "Jazz" by any audience.

If you wish to think of Tiger Rag  as Jazz - feel free.

Indeed Jelly Roll Morton did start recording merely a Year after the Original Dixieland Jazz Band - but by that time the name of the music was (to white audiences) Dixieland. No Black Musicians were involved in giving the music a slave name. Eventually some played along because they had no choice if they wanted to make money, but the Deah Old Dixie of the Antebellum South was never a cause for nostalgia among black Americans.

While a few black artists were recorded between Morton's first session and 1920, the floodgates really openedd in the 1920s when teh record companies expanded their search beyond New Orleans, and included other styles of black music, like the blues, and eventually even songsters like Mississipi John Hurt.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 05/14/2012 13:35:59

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/14/2012:  13:41:38

Evan C.

Don't worry about Coonskin. He has his own hobbyhorse and is willing to twist reality to fit his views. The drop thumb was known and performed well outside the Round Peak area by people who never heard of Charlie Lowe. Trust your ear.

RG - Posted - 05/14/2012:  14:04:50

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb (quotes in red)

"Bert Williams was a white performer who did a blackface act."

Better check your facts on this one Tony, and don't tell Bert Williams that...

pbs.org/wnet/broadway/stars/wi...ms_b.html

"I did fail to mention the black religious groups that were recorded early but they hardly would be referred to as  "Jazz" by any audience."[1]

Not just talking about jazz, you said this is an earlier post...

"The only "Black" recordings I know of from the early days of the recording industry were by whites who did dialects and wore black face on stage. It was a different world back then. It was only in the 1920s that some of the record producers discovered there was a market for material by black artists (and country artists for that matter - the earliest "country" songs were recorded by a classically trained tenor) and started making field trips to record black artists."[2]

I highlighted "only" to emphasize that your statement sounds pretty all inclusive to me...BTW it's OK, you can admit that you were wrong...no big deal...

"If you wish to think of Tiger Rag  as Jazz - feel free."

Well thank you, I will...along with Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Billie Holiday, Fletcher Henderson, Sidney Bechet, "Kid" Ory, Fats Waller, The New Orleans Rhythm Kings, Jelly Roll Morton, Art Tatum...should I continue...who all recorded it...those are some pretty heavyweight names in jazz wouldn't you agree?  Good enough for them, good enough for me...

"Indeed Jelly Roll Morton did start recording merely a Year after the Original Dixieland Jazz Band - but by that time the name of the music was (to white audiences) Dixieland. No Black Musicians were involved in giving the music a slave name. Eventually some played along because they had no choice if they wanted to make money, but the Deah Old Dixie of the Antebellum South was never a cause for nostalgia among black Americans."

And rightfully so, but I only used the term "Dixieland" since it was used as common vernacular to describe early jazz, and as I stated in an earlier post it is now most commonly referred to as "traditional jazz" by most music historians to differentiate it from Swing, Be-Bop, Modern Jazz etc.  Furthermore I never claimed in any of my posts otherwise that African-American (or White) musicians ever referred to their music as anything but "jass" or "jazz" (please see my previous posts). 

In regards to your statement "Indeed Jelly Roll Morton did start recording merely a Year after the Original Dixieland Jazz Band" see quotes [1] & [2] above...kind of contradictory but no worries, just like to set the record straight with facts and not personal opinion & heresay...

Edited by - RG on 05/14/2012 14:08:26

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/14/2012:  15:24:23

Either my information on Bert Williams is out of date or I was thinking of a different man.  I had a reissue of a well known C**n Shouter of that era and he was definately white. I remember his name as Williams, but I do tend to forget names.

Ellengton et al recorded a lot of non-jazz tunes - that did not make the tunes anything more than they were. Tiger Rag was a Novelty Tune, and completely unrelated to black jazz. Remember the great majority of Bessie Smith's recordings were lackluster Tin Pan Alley Tunes. When a jazz musician records a piece of fluff it does not become a jazz tune automatically, any more than Brubeck's "Disney" albums were jazz.

Given That Williams was quite obviously black - I still notice his promo picture shows him wearing blackface. He certainly wasn't out there expanding the roles for black entertainers was he?

I'll even give you that there might have been a couple more actual blacks who snuck under the colour line at the time. The fact is that the record companies were not interested in recording blacks before Morton smashed that colour barrier, and it was still several years before anyone started recording blacks singing the blues - or for that matter country people singing coountry songs on records, instead of hearing Vernon Dahlgren's fruity voiced recordings.

erikforgod - Posted - 05/14/2012:  15:37:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evan C

quote:

---

Originally posted by Coonskin

Drop thumb is just one of many ways to frail the banjo...Doc Watson makes a point of describing how he doesn't drop...using only hammers and pulls.



The obsession with Roundpeak and the broad dissemination of generic playing "standards" are funneling people down a narrow road, but really, you can do whatever you can make sound musical.

---

I'm not sure how the second part is relevant to anything here. As others have suggest, drop-thumbing is just another technique among others. You might play some songs without a single drop thumb, other songs might have them all over the place. Contrary to what the above poster seems to be implying, the way to get yourself stuck on a narrow road, if there is such a thing, is to avoid learning techniques like drop-thumbing. Learn to do it and use it as you see fit. Despite the fact that you can do most things with hammer-ons and pull-offs, there are sequences of notes that are not very feasible using those two techniques. I'm rather new to banjo and still I've had several situations where I'm trying to play a song from a recording, having a bit of trouble with a certain lick, and then it all comes together when I realize that they've got a drop-thumb in there. With that realization, the lick becomes straightforward.

Do you need to drop thumb? Of course not, but it's easy as pie to learn and will open up doors for you.

---

Good point Evan ...actually I dont know why Coonskin seems to think that drop-thumb is more indicative of a "Round-Peak" style banjo playing. In my un-expert opinion I think "Round-Peak" style banjo playing has more to do with the sound of a fretless banjo as being a hallmark of "Round-Peak" playing, as opposed to just a technique like drop-thumb as being "the standard." Also I would say that ASPOS in adding a more fullness to the basic clawhammer stroke would also be another hallmark as opposed to just drop-thumb...no? I say these things because popular musicians like Fred Cockerham and others who were considered "Round-Peak" players featured there playing so prominently using  fretless banjos, although I dunno...Kyle Creed seemed to play mostly fretted banjos, but he was considered a "Round-Peak" banjo player as well right? I watched an old video of Stringbean the other day and I could swear he was even adding a bit of drop-thumb. I think if one really wants to play "fiddle tunes" on the banjo note for note or mimic the melody line, than the drop-thumb will more than likely become a necessity to play certain licks. I am going to step out on a limb here: "I am assuming for example some early banjo players maybe didnt play much drop-thumb or any at all because they probably were just used to straight frailing in a back-up roll supporting a fiddler who was playing all of the melody. For whatever reason they couldnt, didnt want to, or had a different idea with regards to what the role of the banjo was when being played with other instruments. Also if that is the case than one could say that a hallmark characteristic of the musicians in the Round Peak area was in playing fiddle tunes and banjo accompaniment note for note...not so much that drop-thumb is a badge or hallmark of the style. In that case then the drop-thumb becomes all the more necessary. To me I find that I like that idea of being able to play fiddle tunes note for note if I want to, but also lay back and play some simple backup with little embellishments to allow the fiddle or another instrument to step out.

RG - Posted - 05/14/2012:  18:52:39

originally posted by oldwoodchuckb (qoutes in red)

"Either my information on Bert Williams is out of date or I was thinking of a different man.  I had a reissue of a well known C**n Shouter of that era and he was definately white. I remember his name as Williams, but I do tend to forget names."

You think?

"Ellengton et al recorded a lot of non-jazz tunes - that did not make the tunes anything more than they were. Tiger Rag was a Novelty Tune, and completely unrelated to black jazz. Remember the great majority of Bessie Smith's recordings were lackluster Tin Pan Alley Tunes. When a jazz musician records a piece of fluff it does not become a jazz tune automatically, any more than Brubeck's "Disney" albums were jazz."

OK, given the breadth of stellar jazz musicians I listed, you would think that "Tiger Rag" would have definitely been considered a jazz tune to them and not a novelty...but you obviously have some other information I don't, can you post that or is your statement merely your opinion (rhetorical question)?  Honestly, it doesn't really matter what you think of the tune, contemporaries of Nick La Rocca (LOTS of them) considered it jazzy enough to record it...and to that end I offer you Art Tatum's version of it...ain't that jazzy?  I agree...

youtube.com/watch?v=CaPeks0H3_s

Here's Louis playing Tiger Rag, I had no idea this wasn't jazz...what was I thinking?

youtube.com/watch?v=3TGSYmYVYdg

"When a jazz musician records a piece of fluff it does not become a jazz tune automatically"

Well if guys like Louis Armstrong, Jelly Roll Morton, Sidney Bechet, "Kid" Ory etc. etc. perform it, I beg to differ.  Additionally, I guess songs in the OT canon such as "When You and I Were Young Maggie", "Angelina Baker" and "Darling Nellie Gray" aren't OT songs because they were originally written as novelty songs for minstrel or stage shows?  What about the English broadside ballads, they were the novelty songs of their day and lot's of those show up as OT tunes at jams I play at...guess I'm haven't been playing OT music all these years after all...??

"Given That Williams was quite obviously black - I still notice his promo picture shows him wearing blackface. He certainly wasn't out there expanding the roles for black entertainers was he?"

Well, I guess only he could answer that...part of the answer to that question is answered in the article I attached, but that really wasn't the issue, you were emphatic that NO African-American performers were recorded prior to the 1920's (and the fact that you thought he was Caucasian), but if you want to change the question, I'll bite...in my opinion he was expanding the role of African-American entertainers since he endured those indignities to influence latter performers such as Paul Robeson et. al. to be able to dictate to the record companies how they would record (read the story of Paul Robeson's various performances of "Old Man River" and how they evolved to understand Bert William's impact) and be accepted commercially to a White audience...in all fairness, allow me to flip the question around to you; if Bert Williams had not been so commercially successful both on records and stage in 1900's, how much farther back would African-American entertainers be in getting their music on wax (or shellac in this case)?  Seems kind of obvious that someone had to be first and Williams was brave enough to put himself and his talent out there despite considerable odds and achieve some a large modicum of respect from society and his peers through his huge commercial success on stage and records...

"I'll even give you that there might have been a couple more actual blacks who snuck under the colour line at the time. The fact is that the record companies were not interested in recording blacks before Morton smashed that colour barrier, and it was still several years before anyone started recording blacks singing the blues - or for that matter country people singing coountry songs on records, instead of hearing Vernon Dahlgren's fruity voiced recordings."

You don't need to "give" me anything Tony, facts are facts, but once again, the FACT is that the Victor Recording Co., Pathe Recording Co. and the Columbia Recording Co. (as well as other record labels of the era) were VERY interested in recording African-American performers in the 1900-1910's era since they were amongst their top sellers as evidenced by the articles I and supertone referred to (you should really read those books he recommended before trying to pontificate about this era), Jelly didn't "smash" the "colour barrier" in regards to African-American jazz records, that would be Wilbur Sweatman and his Jass Band in 1917 (once more read here to get the real story redhotjazz.com/jazz1917.html ), and besides, as already pointed out (this is getting old) it had already been smashed by pioneers like Bert Williams.  Don't forget that W.C. Handy (he was an African-American in case you don't remember) recorded in 1917 as well just 7 months after the ODJB did, and those recordings became standard jazz classics (or maybe they are just novelty records since one side was the ODJB's "Livery Stable Blues"?).  BTW, the linked article above should help educate you on the early history of jazz recordings for future posts.

You have to remember that the recording industry is just that, a business driven by the economics of supply and demand.  Music labels started in major metropolitan areas selling to a local market because there was no infrastructure to promote and sell music outside of these regions, there was no radio, no way to disseminate music beyond a small geographical area, virtually all recorded music was regionally based to a certain degree...it wasn't until record labels developed distribution methods to service markets outside of their limited regional markets that different genres of commercial music began to be recorded..."Blind" Lemon Jefferson was recorded in 1925 and his records were HUGE commercial successes...that's just 7 years after Jelly's first LA recordings, which by the way were not commercially successful...

In regards to your last statement about "country people singing country songs on records", and once more for the record (fact, not heresay or opinion as you keep posting), Vernon Dalhart (not Dahlgren) was born in rural Jefferson, Texas in 1883 and cowboyed on ranches as a young child and teenager before his family moved to Dallas (hardly a major metropolitan area at the time) in 1897...to quote a famous David Allen Coe song "If That Ain't Country I'll Kiss Your A__".  Incidentally, if his "fruity voiced recordings" aren't to your liking, his contemporary audience loved them since his single "The Wreck of the Old 97", recorded in 1924, sold over 7 million copies and was the biggest selling non-holiday recording for the first 70 years of recorded music...and it is called the "music business"...

That's all , feel free to post more speculation and innuendo as you wish...

In closing, I like drop thumb and use it all the time in CH, and thumb/index lead...listen to Gaither Carlton play "Ramblin' Hobo" on the Watson Family album to hear how rhythmic a technique if can be...

Thaaaaaaaaat's all folks!

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/14/2012:  19:23:39

So you are saying that because I thought one entire black performer was white - I know nothing about the subject. Fine Then I guess I know nothing about the subject. That I found his performances wince inducing and completely Uncle Tom in nature can be left out completely.

So I've admitted that I know nothing about race, recording, and records, and am probably shakey on any history I haven't read in the last week. But I do know trivial novelty tunes when I hear them, and nothing with ever make Tiger Rag  a Jazz tune. Just as not even a signed act of God could make the Original Dixieland "Jazz" Band a real jazz band. They were pit musicians, and unless the standards in those days were awfully low, not the best pit musicians. Compare Tiger to most of the works of Ellington, Morton, Armstrong, etc. It was just a comedy tune, and it was popular. I would put it in the same waste bin as Hello Dolly - another tune that by your definition (Louis Armstrong recorded it) must be jazz. Yes and he also recorded other novelty tunes. Everyone recorded novelty tunes. So What? You hook in an audiences with such trifles, then bring out the heavy works. Would you judge the entire written works of Woody Guthrie as the same thing as "Take Me For a Ride In The Car Car?  Does Grandma Got Run Over By a Rainedeer belong in the same catagory as Oh Holy Night just because both are about Christmas?

I suspect the reason you think Tiger Rag is a jazz composition, equivalent to Black Brown & Beige, Dead Man Blues, Chicago Breakdown, Ain't Misbehavin', Satin Doll, Take The A Train, Take Five, The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady and A Love Supreme, is because you also think String Of Pearls or In The Mood is a jazz piece. Which is a whole other subject that I addressed in the thread about how completely composed music by leftover punk bands has become Folk Music to some.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 05/14/2012 19:43:16

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/14/2012:  20:06:11

I guess songs in the OT canon such as "When You and I Were Young Maggie", "Angelina Baker" and "Darling Nellie Gray" aren't OT songs because they were originally written as novelty songs for minstrel or stage shows?  What about the English broadside ballads, they were the novelty songs of their day and lot's of those show up as OT tunes at jams I play at...guess I'm haven't been playing OT music all these years after all...??

Most broadside ballads were meant to be sung to well known tunes - many of which were in fact the same tunes we still call "Old Time". While I'm perfectly willing to play all sorts of tunes at OT jams - I don't call the odder ones Old Time. Few C tunes are Old Time - They tend to be more related to Rag. I also don't call recently written tunes Old Time, but I'm willing to play most of them. I do sit out if the jam starts doing one modern tune after another - they don't hold my interest that well. I prefer the tunes that time has shown to be the real keepers not the ones that everyone just heard off a brand new CD that Amazon is pushing this week. I also think that most of the tunes based upon the super-amazing tres kwel discovery that one can play a C Major Chord in the key of D, will actually fade away pretty soon, since they haven't got anything at all to recommend them besides those "cool" chord changes.

What do you use to define exactly what is an Old Time piece? Since I doubt you could get a roomful of players to agree upon the definition it can be pretty hard to come up with a definitive list of genuine "Old Time Tunes".

It is not easy to get musicians to agree upon much but I've never met a jazz musician who felt Tiger Rag was a jazz composition. Most felt the works of the Original Dixieland Band were at best ALL novelty tunes, and at worst, blatant rip offs of black music and culture by whites who didn't even understand what they were so busy destroying.

Most black jazz men did respect some white musicians, but not the Original Dixieland Band. There was nothing there to respect.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 05/14/2012 20:10:06

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/14/2012:  20:37:05

Finally - I don't recall ever saying that no blacks were ever recorded before 1920. Here is the most FIRM statement I made on that subject:

"The only "Black" recordings I know of from the early days of the recording industry were by whites who did dialects and wore black face on stage. It was a different world back then. It was only in the 1920s that some of the record producers discovered there was a market for material by black artists (and country artists for that matter - the earliest "country" songs were recorded by a classically trained tenor) and started making field trips to record black artists."

I would point out that I wrote:

The only "Black" recordings I know of from the early days of the recording industry were by whites who did dialects and wore black face on stage.

Note the words "I know Of". They were not underlined in the original - and are easy to ignore if you are looking to twist what I say into what you wish I would have said to suit you own prejudices.

Now I will admit that I didn't KNOW of any black performers (like Williams) who were recorded before Morton et al in 1918. But I never said that it didn't happen. You claim I said it didn't happen - not me.

The fact is I still don't see any evidence of a BIG rush to record black performers before 1918. But I nonetheless did not make the patently false statements RG would like to think that I did - or would like others to think that I did.

Of course I was in fact wrong about the race of Williams - I will admit that. However he was, in fact a "Blackface performer" just like Al Jolson and just as much a perpetrator of racist stereotypes. I don't think I can be blamed for thinking he was yet another C**n Shouter (And yes, that is the historically accurate term for how these people were billed when they performed. I don't see him as being anything but a problem for blacks seeking equality in a racist culture. My Italian and Irish relatives both would have thrown rotten fruit at anyone who committed this kind of vile acts upon their culture.

Tiger Rag is a novelty tune, and I do drop the occasional thumb to this very day.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 05/14/2012 20:39:17

RG - Posted - 05/14/2012:  21:09:36

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb (quotes in red)

"So you are saying that because I thought one entire black performer was white - I know nothing about the subject. Fine Then I guess I know nothing about the subject. That I found his performances wince inducing and completely Uncle Tom in nature can be left out completely."

No, you posted authoritatively that there were NO African American recordings made prior to the 1920's, I didn't say that you knew nothing about the subject...your own posts did...the composition and nature of the music is a non-sequitur to the discussion, but you keep bringing it up to deflect the obviously incorrect statements in your earlier posts regarding the history and existence of African-American recording artists prior to the 1920's.

"So I've admitted that I know nothing about race, recording, and records, and am probably shakey on any history I haven't read in the last week. But I do know trivial novelty tunes when I hear them, and nothing with ever make Tiger Rag  a Jazz tune. Just as not even a signed act of God could make the Original Dixieland "Jazz" Band a real jazz band. They were pit musicians, and unless the standards in those days were awfully low, not the best pit musicians. Compare Tiger to most of the works of Ellington, Morton, Armstrong, etc. It was just a comedy tune, and it was popular. I would put it in the same waste bin as Hello Dolly - another tune that by your definition (Louis Armstrong recorded it) must be jazz. Yes and he also recorded other novelty tunes. Everyone recorded novelty tunes. So What? You hook in an audiences with such trifles, then bring out the heavy works. Would you judge the entire written works of Woody Guthrie as the same thing as "Take Me For a Ride In The Car Car?  Does Grandma Got Run Over By a Rainedeer belong in the same catagory as Oh Holy Night just because both are about Christmas?"

Well, if you are shaky on history, you should probably research your posts before hitting "Post Reply".  Your opinion on "Tiger Rag" is valid, it is your opinion; I disagree with it.  Was the ODJB the best jazz band?  Most certainly not, and I never claimed otherwise; are they an important early jazz band?  In my opinion yes, especially based on the written evidence and opinion of guys like "Kid" Ory, Louis Armstrong, Bunk Johnson and others (check out Tulane's jazz archives, really great factual stuff on early jazz).  Your opinion of the ODJB is also just that; your opinion...no worries.  If you listen to African-American New York brass bands of the 1910's (oh wait, none of them recorded before 1920 right?  Oh yeah, not right...) such as James Reese Europe's (he was an African-American) recordings for Victor, you'll get a good idea of what a dance brass band sounded like at that time, and after all that is what jazz bands evolved from...dance brass bands...and it's pretty well charted and orchestrated, not a lot of improvisation that came to define later jazz performances...have to judge history in context to the mores of the time. 

BTW, the jazz guys that I know today like Kermit Ruffins and Nicholas Peyton routinely play this tune (the dreaded and awful "Tiger Rag"), and they're some of the hippest young jazz cats out there, and believe me, if you listened to the youtube clips I posted of Louis and Art playing this tune, well, as I said if that ain't jazz I don't know what is...to each his own...your opinion just runs contrary to actual jazz musicians who made a living out of playing the tunes, but that's you prerogative...you must have more insight on the subject than they do...and you're also correct that everyone plays some form of novelty tune, but oftentimes those tunes transcend novelty and in the hands of masters become true classics...you obviously don't agree...to each their own...

I suspect the reason you think Tiger Rag is a jazz composition, equivalent to Black Brown & Beige, Dead Man Blues, Chicago Breakdown, Ain't Misbehavin', Satin Doll, Take The A Train, Take Five, The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady and A Love Supreme, is because you also think String Of Pearls or In The Mood is a jazz piece. Which is a whole other subject that I addressed in the thread about how completely composed music by leftover punk bands has become Folk Music to some.

Well, that's pretty presumptuous on your part to ascertain my musical tastes from my posts, but suffice it to say from your past erroneous and completely misleading posts, that I feel I have a little more authority to comment on the subject than you. I never claimed that "Tiger Rag" was the penultimate jazz composition or equivalent to the songs you listed, those are your words, I just pointed out that it is the most widely recorded jazz composition (whether you like or not)...those are two very different things...again, feel free to misinterpret my post as you deem necessary to support your tenable position...frankly my taste in jazz runs from Freddie Kepperd, King Oliver, Jelly, Bix, "Kid" Ory, Fletcher Henderson, Harry James, Roy Eldridge and not much past 1950...like my OT I like the original early stuff and am not a fan of modern interpretations of it...but thanks for telling me what I really like, glad you cleared that up for me...

As I know you like to have the last word on the subject post away and feel free to post continued speculation and opinion on this subject as if it is fact...I'm kind of bored with this thread drift, the facts speak for themselves and rather loudly I might add...bye and take care...!

Oh gosh, our posts crossed, but anyway to your post that...

"The only "Black" recordings I know of from the early days of the recording industry were by whites who did dialects and wore black face on stage."

You followed that statement with this definitive statement...

"It was only in the 1920s that some of the record producers discovered there was a market for material by black artists (and country artists for that matter - the earliest "country" songs were recorded by a classically trained tenor) and started making field trips to record black artists".

originally posted by oldwoodchuckb (quotes in red)

"My Italian and Irish relatives both would have thrown rotten fruit at anyone who committed this kind of vile acts upon their culture."

Guess your Irish and Italian relatives went through a lot of fruit back in the day...

xroads.virginia.edu/~ma02/east...udio.html

'nuff said...outta here...

Edited by - RG on 05/14/2012 21:25:52

RG - Posted - 05/14/2012:  21:37:20

originally posted by oldwoodchuckb (quotes in red)

"Most black jazz men did respect some white musicians, but not the Original Dixieland Band. There was nothing there to respect."

Name them...please...

Ok, now I'm really out of here...there is no show here, move along...

Mark Johnson - Posted - 05/15/2012:  07:33:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by RG

...listen to Gaither Carlton play "Ramblin' Hobo" on the Watson Family album to hear how rhythmic a technique if can be... 

---

In case anyone is still reading this thread, I thought I'd highlight that bit.  Quick link for the lazy (track 22):

amazon.com/Watson-Family-Doc/dp/B000001DGI

Jrbianchi - Posted - 05/15/2012:  09:39:15

Use drop thumb?  I don't even know what that is.  

and please don't tell me; at my age, I will only become confused...   :D  

Bard - Posted - 05/15/2012:  09:39:24

Yes, still following this thread, and surprised about the many messages on this subject. Would be nice if one could write a sort of conclusion and a list of agreements or agrees to disagree. ;)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Johnson

quote:

---

Originally posted by RG

...listen to Gaither Carlton play "Ramblin' Hobo" on the Watson Family album to hear how rhythmic a technique if can be... 

---

 

In case anyone is still reading this thread, I thought I'd highlight that bit.  Quick link for the lazy (track 22):

amazon.com/Watson-Family-Doc/dp/B000001DGI

---

Edited by - Bard on 05/15/2012 09:40:26

mwc9725e - Posted - 05/15/2012:  10:48:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by RG

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb (quotes in red)

 

"So you are saying that because I thought one entire black performer was white - I know nothing about the subject. Fine Then I guess I know nothing about the subject. That I found his performances wince inducing and completely Uncle Tom in nature can be left out completely."

No, you posted authoritatively that there were NO African American recordings made prior to the 1920's, I didn't say that you knew nothing about the subject...your own posts did...the composition and nature of the music is a non-sequitur to the discussion, but you keep bringing it up to deflect the obviously incorrect statements in your earlier posts regarding the history and existence of African-American recording artists prior to the 1920's.

 

"So I've admitted that I know nothing about race, recording, and records, and am probably shakey on any history I haven't read in the last week. But I do know trivial novelty tunes when I hear them, and nothing with ever make Tiger Rag  a Jazz tune. Just as not even a signed act of God could make the Original Dixieland "Jazz" Band a real jazz band. They were pit musicians, and unless the standards in those days were awfully low, not the best pit musicians. Compare Tiger to most of the works of Ellington, Morton, Armstrong, etc. It was just a comedy tune, and it was popular. I would put it in the same waste bin as Hello Dolly - another tune that by your definition (Louis Armstrong recorded it) must be jazz. Yes and he also recorded other novelty tunes. Everyone recorded novelty tunes. So What? You hook in an audiences with such trifles, then bring out the heavy works. Would you judge the entire written works of Woody Guthrie as the same thing as "Take Me For a Ride In The Car Car?  Does Grandma Got Run Over By a Rainedeer belong in the same catagory as Oh Holy Night just because both are about Christmas?"

Well, if you are shaky on history, you should probably research your posts before hitting "Post Reply".  Your opinion on "Tiger Rag" is valid, it is your opinion; I disagree with it.  Was the ODJB the best jazz band?  Most certainly not, and I never claimed otherwise; are they an important early jazz band?  In my opinion yes, especially based on the written evidence and opinion of guys like "Kid" Ory, Louis Armstrong, Bunk Johnson and others (check out Tulane's jazz archives, really great factual stuff on early jazz).  Your opinion of the ODJB is also just that; your opinion...no worries.  If you listen to African-American New York brass bands of the 1910's (oh wait, none of them recorded before 1920 right?  Oh yeah, not right...) such as James Reese Europe's (he was an African-American) recordings for Victor, you'll get a good idea of what a dance brass band sounded like at that time, and after all that is what jazz bands evolved from...dance brass bands...and it's pretty well charted and orchestrated, not a lot of improvisation that came to define later jazz performances...have to judge history in context to the mores of the time. 

BTW, the jazz guys that I know today like Kermit Ruffins and Nicholas Peyton routinely play this tune (the dreaded and awful "Tiger Rag"), and they're some of the hippest young jazz cats out there, and believe me, if you listened to the youtube clips I posted of Louis and Art playing this tune, well, as I said if that ain't jazz I don't know what is...to each his own...your opinion just runs contrary to actual jazz musicians who made a living out of playing the tunes, but that's you prerogative...you must have more insight on the subject than they do...and you're also correct that everyone plays some form of novelty tune, but oftentimes those tunes transcend novelty and in the hands of masters become true classics...you obviously don't agree...to each their own...

 

I suspect the reason you think Tiger Rag is a jazz composition, equivalent to Black Brown & Beige, Dead Man Blues, Chicago Breakdown, Ain't Misbehavin', Satin Doll, Take The A Train, Take Five, The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady and A Love Supreme, is because you also think String Of Pearls or In The Mood is a jazz piece. Which is a whole other subject that I addressed in the thread about how completely composed music by leftover punk bands has become Folk Music to some.

Well, that's pretty presumptuous on your part to ascertain my musical tastes from my posts, but suffice it to say from your past erroneous and completely misleading posts, that I feel I have a little more authority to comment on the subject than you. I never claimed that "Tiger Rag" was the penultimate jazz composition or equivalent to the songs you listed, those are your words, I just pointed out that it is the most widely recorded jazz composition (whether you like or not)...those are two very different things...again, feel free to misinterpret my post as you deem necessary to support your tenable position...frankly my taste in jazz runs from Freddie Kepperd, King Oliver, Jelly, Bix, "Kid" Ory, Fletcher Henderson, Harry James, Roy Eldridge and not much past 1950...like my OT I like the original early stuff and am not a fan of modern interpretations of it...but thanks for telling me what I really like, glad you cleared that up for me...

As I know you like to have the last word on the subject post away and feel free to post continued speculation and opinion on this subject as if it is fact...I'm kind of bored with this thread drift, the facts speak for themselves and rather loudly I might add...bye and take care...!

 

Oh gosh, our posts crossed, but anyway to your post that...

"The only "Black" recordings I know of from the early days of the recording industry were by whites who did dialects and wore black face on stage."

 

You followed that statement with this definitive statement...

 

"It was only in the 1920s that some of the record producers discovered there was a market for material by black artists (and country artists for that matter - the earliest "country" songs were recorded by a classically trained tenor) and started making field trips to record black artists".

 

originally posted by oldwoodchuckb (quotes in red)

"My Italian and Irish relatives both would have thrown rotten fruit at anyone who committed this kind of vile acts upon their culture."

Guess your Irish and Italian relatives went through a lot of fruit back in the day...

xroads.virginia.edu/~ma02/east...udio.html

'nuff said...outta here...

 

---

 Next, you folks will be trying to convince us that Tiny Tim 1) wasn't black, and 2) wasn't a jazz musician?

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/15/2012:  11:23:06

Next, you folks will be trying to convince us that Tiny Tim 1) wasn't black, and 2) wasn't a jazz musician?

- mwc9725e

_________________________

Or that he wasn't a woman!

captbanjo - Posted - 05/15/2012:  12:12:15

Tiny was most certainly NOT a jazz musician.

He performed zydeco.

Wayne

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

 

Next, you folks will be trying to convince us that Tiny Tim 1) wasn't black, and 2) wasn't a jazz musician?

- mwc9725e

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Or that he wasn't a woman!

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