Mark Johnson - Posted - 05/03/2012:  08:36:13

JINX!

bd - Posted - 05/03/2012:  08:39:34

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Johnson

JINX!

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Durn it!

 

Well maybe I'll be first on this one compare Mark Johnson's suggested viewing with this which is definitely 19th century.

Early Black Banjo Piece

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/03/2012:  08:55:04

You guys are QUICK!!!  Anyway, here's what I found as well:

The akonting is a West African gourd lute that is played with what is for all intents and purposes "clawhammer" technique.

It has been around for many centuries and comes from the exact region from which large numbers of Africans were taken into slavery in the New World.

It is the most likely ancestor of the African-American gourd banjo both because of it's place of origin, it's construction, and it's playing technique.

In this video of basic akonting technique by well-known player Daniel Jatta you will plainly see the "bum-ditty" stroke AND Drop-Thumbing:

youtube.com/watch?v=DMXofL7mdX8

Mark Johnson - Posted - 05/03/2012:  08:57:22

bd: It's been a few years, so I can't recall all of the rules. I think maybe you're not supposed to type/say anything, but since you did you have to buy me a Coke.  Next time we see each other...

Also, you make a fine point and a good follow-up too... a modern African player on a presumably banjo-related instrument doesn't necessarily mean that players used that same technique 200+ years ago.  A tune that has been preserved for almost that long through written documentation is a bit better.  Either way, both videos seem to give a somewhat Bayesian support to the idea that drop thumbing is old, really old.

Which in turn means precisely zilch:

-Are there players that don't drop thumb?  Yes.  

-Will dropping thumb ruin your playing ability?  No.  You can always choose not to do it if you don't like it. 

-Will not dropping your thumb handicap you?  No.  Unless you really want to play like someone that does, or otherwise make sounds that require it.  Then yes, it will quite obviously handicap you.

Edited by - Mark Johnson on 05/03/2012 09:05:08

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/03/2012:  09:01:31

quote:

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Originally posted by bd

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Johnson

JINX!

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Durn it!

 

Well maybe I'll be first on this one compare Mark Johnson's suggested viewing with this which is definitely 19th century.

Early Black Banjo Piece

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 Sounds a heck of a lot like an Irish Reel to me.

Not saying that it is, just that it would make a serviceable one.  

minstrelmike - Posted - 05/03/2012:  09:06:32

My understanding of the akonting is that it has one melody string (struck by the finger) and two, count 'em, two drone strings. So it's only -technically- drop thumbing when you choose one drone instead of the other.

Makes me think you could revise Sonny's 6-string chanterelle banjo into a dual-5th-stringer if you wished ;-)

steve j. - Posted - 05/03/2012:  09:17:37

 Great video,,,, I bet he would get a huge laugh out of white americans having a  strong discussion about   these points  

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Originally posted by Mark Johnson

quote:

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No this is great and thanks for providing this...I think it could be safe to say that drop-thumb has deeper roots than we think...or at least than I thought. I will bet drop thumbing has its roots in african-american style playing as well...its just a hunch. Can someone clarify this?

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How far back would you like to go?

 

youtube.com/watch?v=b1zC4SSbdm...e=related

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erikforgod - Posted - 05/03/2012:  09:21:07

Thanks for clarifying this for us guys....this was exactly what I suspected, just wasnt sure! The gentlemen RT who made the assertion that drop-thumb was an addition from white-musicians was totally incorrect...and I had a gut feeling that his analysis was incorrect. Actually this is a great discussion...now we have a better idea how far back drop-thumb really goes and we can see that musicians have been using it for...well...centuries I guess!

drop-thumb is a great technique...I am glad I learned it. I couldnt imagine playing with out it.

bd - Posted - 05/03/2012:  09:27:47

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Johnson

bd: It's been a few years, so I can't recall all of the rules. I think maybe you're not supposed to type/say anything, but since you did you have to buy me a Coke.  Next time we see each other...

 

 

it's a deal.

chip arnold - Posted - 05/03/2012:  09:32:14

people who make music are by nature a creative lot. with that in mind, i cannot imagine that countless players and centuries passed without anyone putting their thumb to use in new ways. the possibility of that process waiting for invention by a white man is preposterous.

wahr - Posted - 05/03/2012:  10:03:42

Here's another good place for thumb-wars:

Carlos Benavides - Posted - 05/03/2012:  10:07:33

quote:

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Originally posted by chip arnold

people who make music are by nature a creative lot. with that in mind, i cannot imagine that countless players and centuries passed without anyone putting their thumb to use in new ways. the possibility of that process waiting for invention by a white man is preposterous.

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Yes! I've laughed much reading through these posts. To deconstruct the value of music based on the mechanics of making that music seems a little silly to me. If Jimi H wants to use his teeth, or if Jimmy P wants to use his bow, it makes no real difference to the "duende" experience.

I mention duende again because It's a shame to let that part of this discussion go, it's the most interesting part by far. I also first heard about duende many years ago while trying out flamenco guitar. But I think the experience is universal to all arts, and is often called duende in the context of music. Flamenco specifically as a word, but the duende experience is universal.

I was listening to The Camp Creek Boys in the car this morning. Mid tune someone yells out "woohooo!" That's duende. I was at a music festival in Missouri last weekend and a girl in the audience just suddenly screamed in delight. That's duende. I was at an art gallery some weeks ago and I walked past someone who on looking at a painting softly whispered "aaaahhhh!". That's duende.

As I understood duende all those years back it has something to do with 'communing with the muse'. A clumsy term, but a very old one in art terms that describes any artistic experience which reaches deep inside you and makes you aware of the beauty of the human condition. (Another clumsy phrase by me, but this is what happens when you try to answer the unanswerable question: What is art?)

Edited by - Carlos Benavides on 05/03/2012 10:09:01

wahr - Posted - 05/03/2012:  10:14:52

quote:

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Originally posted by Carlos Benavides

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Yes! I've laughed much reading through these posts. To deconstruct the value of music based on the mechanics of making that music seems a little silly to me. If Jimi H wants to use his teeth, or if Jimmy P wants to use his bow, it makes no real difference to the "duende" experience.

I mention duende again because It's a shame to let that part of this discussion go, it's the most interesting part by far. I also first heard about duende many years ago while trying out flamenco guitar. But I think the experience is universal to all arts, and is often called duende in the context of music. Flamenco specifically as a word, but the duende experience is universal.

I was listening to The Camp Creek Boys in the car this morning. Mid tune someone yells out "woohooo!" That's duende. I was at a music festival in Missouri last weekend and a girl in the audience just suddenly screamed in delight. That's duende. I was at an art gallery some weeks ago and I walked past someone who on looking at a painting softly whispered "aaaahhhh!". That's duende.

As I understood duende all those years back it has something to do with 'communing with the muse'. A clumsy term, but a very old one in art terms that describes any artistic experience which reaches deep inside you and makes you aware of the beauty of the human condition. (Another clumsy phrase by me, but this is what happens when you try to answer the unanswerable question: What is art?)

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Wonderful post. Many thanks for this.

erikforgod - Posted - 05/03/2012:  10:27:49

Now THIS GUY has lots of ...whatdayah call it? "Duende"!!

youtube.com/watch?v=h2wDagHD0ts

Edited by - erikforgod on 05/03/2012 10:28:16

captbanjo - Posted - 05/03/2012:  10:46:47

Well, why not combine 'em?

youtube.com/watch?v=DY1pcEtHI_w 

Wayne

quote:

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Originally posted by erikforgod

Now THIS GUY has lots of ...whatdayah call it? "Duende"!!

 

youtube.com/watch?v=h2wDagHD0ts

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Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 05/03/2012:  12:25:05

quote:

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Originally posted by mwc9725e

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

" He is strictly in the old school German Music Master Pattern - "No no no, you are all wrong. His assumption is that only by bullying his students, browbeating and shaming them will they ever learn. "

 

Well, gee OWC, those old Germans turned out more than a few good musicians. I'm sure you've heard of Beethoven, Mozart, and that clan of Bachs.

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Those "old Germans" also chased a lot of potentially great players right out of music.

 Example:  In 1951  -when I was 8 years old-  my mom signed me up for piano lessons with a nice German lady named Mrs Vollimy who stood behind her students holding a yardstick and hit them across the knuckles when they made a mistake.   Needless to say, she had very few students who stayed with her long enough to become competent pianists.  (After all; how many masochists want to become classical pianists?   OR banjo players?)

Good teachers will treat each student as an individual and tailor the lessons to the student's needs and desires rather than try and enforce a "one-size-fits-all" philosophy.

And BTW:  That doesn't mean that someone who is a miserable teacher can't be a superb performer: it just means that teaching and performing are two entirely different things and many people are only good at one of the two.

~Pete  

captbanjo - Posted - 05/03/2012:  12:32:03

Could it have been Divine Providence that brought you to the good Fraulein? It seems a good knuckle bashing may have sent you flying to the banjo.....

Wayne

quote:

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Those "old Germans" also chased a lot of potentially great players right out of music.

 Example:  In 1951  -when I was 8 years old-  my mom signed me up for piano lessons with a nice German lady named Mrs Vollimy who stood behind her students holding a yardstick and hit them across the knuckles when they made a mistake.   Needless to say, she had very few students who stayed with her long enough to become competent pianists.  (After all; how many masochists want to become classical pianists?   OR banjo players?)

Good teachers will treat each student as an individual and tailor the lessons to the student's needs and desires rather than try and enforce a "one-size-fits-all" philosophy.

And BTW:  That doesn't mean that someone who is a miserable teacher can't be a superb performer: it just means that teaching and performing are two entirely different things and many people are only good at one of the two.

~Pete  

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erikforgod - Posted - 05/03/2012:  12:44:23

More Duende:

youtube.com/watch?v=KQ2yGQtdAa...e=related

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/03/2012:  15:20:17

quote:

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Originally posted by hoverflytheo

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

both classical and flamenco guitar are played without any fingers stationed and both involve "drop thumb" I can't think of any finger style fretted instrument playing that does not involve drop thumb.

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Are you including electric bass?

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I used to play fender bass 2 finger style - thumb and index (or middle) Thumb usually played the low strings and the finger played th highest 2. I could however, use either finger for any string.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/03/2012:  15:48:26

quote:

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Originally posted by mwc9725e

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

" He is strictly in the old school German Music Master Pattern - "No no no, you are all wrong. His assumption is that only by bullying his students, browbeating and shaming them will they ever learn. "

 

Well, gee OWC, those old Germans turned out more than a few good musicians. I'm sure you've heard of Beethoven, Mozart, and that clan of Bachs.

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I guess that is one ethnic slur I haven'tpurged from my language. The most venomous music teachers I've ever encountered were not German but American, and most of them not German/American. I was using to old and completely cliched WWII version of the SS Colonel from the WWII movies of my youth.

 Growing up in an Italian/Polish/Irish/African American neighbourhood, I can tell you every ethnicity produces teachers (not just music teachers either) who instruct by bullying. Who make examples of the slower kids and shame them in front of class, who seek out the weakness of each child in their care and then cruelly exploit it.

Most of my teachers (at least in grade school) were really good people, but there were a couple who probably still pulled the wings off flies and set cats on fire in the evening after tea. Fortunately for the world, they are long dead, and I hope there haven't been any similar harridans born to take their place

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/03/2012:  16:06:50

Eric,

I think It would be more accurate to say that Charlie Lowe popularized the almost constant use of drop thumb (like in his recording of Tater Patch). That full 8 note measure was such a Lowe trademark that he made an "Event" out of skipping an occasional DT.

mwc9725e - Posted - 05/03/2012:  16:56:18

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

quote:

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Originally posted by mwc9725e

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

" He is strictly in the old school German Music Master Pattern - "No no no, you are all wrong. His assumption is that only by bullying his students, browbeating and shaming them will they ever learn. "

 

Well, gee OWC, those old Germans turned out more than a few good musicians. I'm sure you've heard of Beethoven, Mozart, and that clan of Bachs.

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I guess that is one ethnic slur I haven'tpurged from my language. The most venomous music teachers I've ever encountered were not German but American, and most of them not German/American. I was using to old and completely cliched WWII version of the SS Colonel from the WWII movies of my youth.

 Growing up in an Italian/Polish/Irish/African American neighbourhood, I can tell you every ethnicity produces teachers (not just music teachers either) who instruct by bullying. Who make examples of the slower kids and shame them in front of class, who seek out the weakness of each child in their care and then cruelly exploit it.

Most of my teachers (at least in grade school) were really good people, but there were a couple who probably still pulled the wings off flies and set cats on fire in the evening after tea. Fortunately for the world, they are long dead, and I hope there haven't been any similar harridans born to take their place

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 I remember those days vividly. I lived on a farm where German POWs were sent to pick prunes. Every time I walked past the prune orchard, the POWs would try to be friendly, and come over to try to talk to me, but I was terrified of them. I was about 14 years old, and I'd run like hell. You're right, even now sometimes the old impressions must rise to the top and unconsciously color our behaviour.

Well, there I go trying to hijack the thread again, but old people are famous for mentally wandering off topic, right ?? :>)

ceemonster - Posted - 05/03/2012:  19:40:31

reading comments since my first post on this thread by folks expressing surprise at the heatedness that surrounds this topic has brought to mind a kind of analagous thing that goes on in the land of traditional irish concertina, namely the so-called "Anglo" concertina, which is the one that is bisonoric, with a different note on each button. the earliest bisonoric concertinas were super rudimentary, cheapie german models with just a couple of rows, and just had one of each note, along its scale row like a harmonica, so you were stuck playing that note in whichever direction it was. like a harmonica or a one-row button accordion. that is how folk irish concertina playing was done for a long, long, time, out in the backcountry. that push-pull component gave it a phrasing and articulation that went well with rural dance forms. but it also limited the capacity of the instrument to phrase fluidly in complex melodies, and limited what it offered in terms of expressive choices.

well, concertina design evolved over the decades. it evolved piecemeal, but it evolved. and long story short, the number of buttons expanded due to a market in England among the upper classes, who were using it for classical music in the parlor. two things happened---they started designing unisonoric concertinas that largely remained in england (now called "English" models); but bisonoric concertinas stayed in use. however, they started making high-end, high-quality bisonoric ones in england. and they kept adding buttons to the original simple design, so as to give doubles of notes that you only had in one direction originally. they didn't double them on the same button like a unisonoric. they doubled them on other buttons. so now, you had a "D" on the pull over here, and the same "D" again on the push, but up on another button in another row, see? that made bisonoric concertina potentially much more complex to learn and play (think Rubik's Cube). but it vastly augmented the expressive choices you had as to phrasing and articulation.

which brings me to the part of this relevant to the drop-thumbing wars. the bisonoric concertina went out of fashion as a classical parlor instrument for the english nobs--they and the english salvation army, seized the unisonoric with a vengeance. so boatloads of discarded fancy, high-end, augmented bisonoric concertinas made their way to ireland, where rural farm folks picked them up cheap, relatively. however, THEY PLAYED THEM LIKE THEY HAD PLAYED THE LIMITED, CHEAPIE RUDIMENTARY ONES THEY ALREADY KNEW HOW TO PLAY. they didn't use the extra button choices. they stayed "on the rows" of the original limited choices and yanked them back and forth like they'd always done. those extra buttons just sat there for dog's years.

well, at a certain point a few players out in the middle of nowhere started messing around with the extra buttons to see what they could do, and lo and behold, the playing become much more fluid and supple. and today, just about every student who seriously learns to play bisonoric concertina with a technique teacher, learns it this way.

okay, and here's the nut of the story----to this day, this is viewed in some traditional irish concertina pockets as a Big Departure, controversial even. it is not viewed as, oh, they figured out how to play the thing, which is actually all this was. they call it "Playing Across the Rows," or, "Cross-Row" playing. and people who aren't with modern technique teachers, are often very intimidated by "Playing Across the Rows," despite the fact that all it is, is playing all the buttonw on your 30 or 30-plus button concertina rather than limiting yourself to just 20 because you think it's easier or something.

on the concertina site, you periodically get these mile-long threads like the Drop-Thumb threads, about "Cross-Row Playing." or, "Playing Across the Rows." like drop-thumb, some of them are in the category of, "Can You Help Me Figure Out How to Do This?" but.....others are big ole debates about, "Cross-Row Versus on-the-Rows." what do these wrought-up debates and arguments signify or imply when the issue is fully using what your instrument is built to do, versus using it only partially? that is the fascinating thing. i enjoy them, both reading and jumping into them, but what are the implications of all the frothing over these issues?

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 05/03/2012:  19:55:14

quote:

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Originally posted by captbanjo



Could it have been Divine Providence that brought you to the good Fraulein? It seems a good knuckle bashing may have sent you flying to the banjo.....

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 (Grin)   But alas, no.

I took up guitar several years later wanting to play Buddy Holly stuff and then added the 5-string a couple of years after that when it became apparent to me that one Buddy Holly was enough for the world.

The latter two are linked, however, and I may be the only Clawhammer player you ever meet who frails a couple of Buddy Holly tunes.

~Pete

Strumelia - Posted - 05/03/2012:  20:00:43

Whoa, don't worry!  i learned at first from Dwight- best teacher I ever had!  But that was the one piece of advise I should never have followed- It was incredibly hard for me to incorporate drop thumb later on because I followed Dwight's advise to stay away from it for a year.  Now I teach drop thumb right from the first.  Dwight's teaching is GREAT, but I disagree with that one part of it. Drop thumb is all about syncopation...it's awesome, I love it!  But it takes a while and some work to get it smoothly added in I think.

quote:

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probably shouldn't have read that, cause its screwing my head up big time. Unlike others, his teaching clawhammer banjo it so different from others, it doesn't even seem to coexist together. Please help...

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Carlos Benavides - Posted - 05/03/2012:  20:05:09

quote:

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Originally posted by ceemonster

what do these wrought-up debates and arguments signify or imply when the issue is fully using what your instrument is built to do, versus using it only partially? that is the fascinating thing. i enjoy them, both reading and jumping into them, but what are the implications of all the frothing over these issues?

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It's an interesting question. My feeling is that at the core we are talking about notions of ownership of music. These arguments tend to bring out sentiments like: "Me - I have the right to say how this music is played because it represents the group I ascribe myself to." And this is where the ethnicity and social classes divisions are coming from. We all want to take pride in saying "I am me, and this is my music," because it keeps us (and our sub cultures) from disappearing into obscurity. Nobody wants to be forgotten.

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 05/03/2012:  23:27:17

quote:

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Originally posted by Carlos Benavides

My feeling is that at the core we are talking about notions of ownership of music. These arguments tend to bring out sentiments like: "Me - I have the right to say how this music is played because it represents the group I ascribe myself to." And this is where the ethnicity and social classes divisions are coming from. We all want to take pride in saying "I am me, and this is my music," because it keeps us (and our sub cultures) from disappearing into obscurity. Nobody wants to be forgotten.

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 Bingo.   And thank you.

~Pete

bbrat - Posted - 05/04/2012:  05:07:52

When I was first taught to play, it was in Chicago (1963), and I wanted to play like Dave Guard of the Kingston Trio, so I was taught "frailing" with my hand firmly rooted to the banjo head.  Worked okay for that, but it wasn't until years later, in Virginia, that I met a good banjo-player (I wish I could remember his name) who was playing all these cool fiddle tunes.  He told me I was doing it all wrong and that I needed to get my hand off the banjo head and try to drop thumb.  After many moons of practice I finally got it - breaking a bad habit was tough.  But I cannot imagine not having drop thumb technique available.  Why wouldn't you give it a strong try?  You will find it a valuable tool (much more than an "effect" (IMHO), in the box.        

captbanjo - Posted - 05/04/2012:  05:08:56

And also of course, there's that old saying, "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture". If memory serves, Martin Mull made it.

Wayne

quote:

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It's an interesting question. My feeling is that at the core we are talking about notions of ownership of music. These arguments tend to bring out sentiments like: "Me - I have the right to say how this music is played because it represents the group I ascribe myself to." And this is where the ethnicity and social classes divisions are coming from. We all want to take pride in saying "I am me, and this is my music," because it keeps us (and our sub cultures) from disappearing into obscurity. Nobody wants to be forgotten.

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erikforgod - Posted - 05/04/2012:  05:09:02

quote:

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Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad

quote:

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Originally posted by Carlos Benavides

My feeling is that at the core we are talking about notions of ownership of music. These arguments tend to bring out sentiments like: "Me - I have the right to say how this music is played because it represents the group I ascribe myself to." And this is where the ethnicity and social classes divisions are coming from. We all want to take pride in saying "I am me, and this is my music," because it keeps us (and our sub cultures) from disappearing into obscurity. Nobody wants to be forgotten.

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 Bingo.   And thank you.

~Pete

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Actually in my opinion I think you are seeing into this a little too far. Drop-thumb is nothing more than a technique that some use and some dont, some feel its not as important to learn and some do...its really nothing more than that...in my opinion. I ascribe to the "its a useful aspect of banjo playing, why not learn it" crowd and proudly so...some others dont, others do. There is nothing wrong with that, just like there is nothing wrong with one group having strong feelings of disagreement. There seems to be some folks who dont want to have differing opinions about certain things that are discussed, and as soon as someone has an opinion about music, style, certain techniques different from their own, they get offended. They get their feelings hurt, they say things like "I am done or I am going somewhere else etc etc. They want to live in a passive, "non confrontational" world where everything is narrow, nothing is challenged, everything is right and nothing is wrong..where we become clones with the same mindless opinions on everything. They dont realize that by the difference of opinions and approaches, the reader is "enriched and encouraged to see all sides and form their own views" with regards to a subject, whatever side they may choose, whether one thinks it right or the other wrong..period. The reader is done a service not a disservice...and so what if an individual has strong views about their certain approach to something. Passion is what music is about and most musicians are "passionate" people and their views are reflected as such. There are some that " wrongly interpret" in my opinion, the comments of some as being "narrowminded" and they take it "personally" due to usually insecurities or issues of their own that they are dealing with, when in reality its about the passion that that particular person or "group of persons" feels in conveying something that for them has "worked" has "clicked" that they feel passionate about. ...Now what were we talking about? Drop-thumb right?

Edited by - erikforgod on 05/04/2012 05:12:17

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/04/2012:  05:31:06

Given the thread title it would be interesting and informative to hear from players who choose not to drop thumb and why they made this choice. Rather than whether this way or that way is correct/better/traditional/imposed/ (delete as required). There must be a whole world of different influences that give rise to different styles and different strokes?

RatLer - Posted - 05/04/2012:  11:42:02

mbuk06 quote: Given the thread title it would be interesting and informative to hear from players who choose not to drop thumb and why they made this choice. Rather than whether this way or that way is correct/better/traditional/imposed/ (delete as required). There must be a whole world of different influences that give rise to different styles and different strokes? 

I was introduced to clawhammer style by an old gentleman who did Drop-thumb CH. I tried "DT" to begin with but never got proficient with it. But I did find that straight CH, or some folks call it Knock-Down clawhammer, better suited for me and the tunes I like to play. I don't have a thing against drop-thumb, I love to hear it.

squirrel - Posted - 05/04/2012:  12:06:50

youtu.be/ipoa3wmVovI

check out  blind boy here, he explains it well.  I almost never drop my thumb, i love the "knott county lick" made popular by George Gibson, honestly the whole drop thumb thing became wildly popular during the folk revival, but, back to the point, as long as you get the sound your looking for, it dont matter what way yer hitting them strings, unlike bluegrass, there aint no set standard to playing old timey banjo, i wouldnt want to limit my resources and techniques to one "proper" style. when folks say thats the "wrong way" they dont understand the history of the banjer, and seeing as there werent any recording devices back then, who is to say what is "traditional"

rgoad - Posted - 05/04/2012:  13:28:44

I know a very good banjo player who is in a sort of minimalist phase of his playing life and he strips out as much as he can from his playing until all that is left is the bare bones of the beat and rhythm holding up the tune. This usually means leaving out the drop thumb if possible. Then he adds back in techniques, like the drop thumb, to add interest or more importantly to draw the listener's attention to something in the tune, like the next note, bar, or phrase. So it is the sparing use of the drop thumb that makes it special and not using it can be a really good thing.

howseth - Posted - 05/04/2012:  14:03:03

Drop thumb can become automatic in ones style - just like hitting that 5th string can become automatic. Rgoad mentions his friend stripping out everything but the bare bones - and then rebuilt his technique: an interesting idea. As for me, dropping the thumb is a little less automatic, and less easy, then popping on that 5th string with the thumb relentlessly - so, lately, I try to get myself consciously focus on that fifth string more - and avoid the automatic drum stroke on it. (I may next attempt to concentrate more on when the thumb drops down -  "am I hitting cleanly enough the string intended, and is it timed just right?"

erikforgod - Posted - 05/04/2012:  14:21:53

quote:

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Originally posted by squirrel

youtu.be/ipoa3wmVovI

check out  blind boy here, he explains it well.  I almost never drop my thumb, i love the "knott county lick" made popular by George Gibson, honestly the whole drop thumb thing became wildly popular during the folk revival, but, back to the point, as long as you get the sound your looking for, it dont matter what way yer hitting them strings, unlike bluegrass, there aint no set standard to playing old timey banjo, i wouldnt want to limit my resources and techniques to one "proper" style. when folks say thats the "wrong way" they dont understand the history of the banjer, and seeing as there werent any recording devices back then, who is to say what is "traditional"

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I love this Knott County lick also...I am a Kentuckian ( well I come from 6 generations or more of proud Kentuckians from central and western Kentucky ) and I would love to learn this...I may do so in the future just to be able to play like this. Clifton Hicks is a protege of Mr Gibson..they do very little drop-thumb style clawhammer in their playing. Its fine if no one drop-thumbs...however I just feel for me personally I like to add it to my playing...I think its essential for me. I think whats his name "Rufus Crisp"...he played a similar style. He was from Magoffin county..just up above Knott county so I guess it was kinda a regional thing in east Kentucky there....or at least that part of east Kentucky.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 05/04/2012:  14:39:32

I did not choose, at first. I started with Patrick Costello on the internet. He did not drop thumb, at first, and he whacked the head of the banjo in time with the music. I thought it sounded cool (still do!), so that is how I started. Then I encountered Dwight Diller's music, and I loved what I was hearing, so I got some of his DVDs to learn from. DD did not whack the banjo head, but his music has a very percussive nature, that I loved. Still do. As discussed, the DT is not part of his introductory instruction. By the time that I encountered drop thumb I was already playing a bit, and liking what I was hearing. When I tried to incorporate it, I was useless. So, I began to do some drills, and I did get to where I can do the technique. So, if I want to claim to be a drop-thumber, then I could do so. BUT! My playing really sucks when I do. It sounds like a student doing a drill. I does not sound like music, and it does not pass my big test: does it make me want to dance?
Then, I DID choose. I chose to enjoy playing my banjo, right now where I am with it. My life is very hectic and stressful these days (small business owner trying to survive this recession/depression) and my banjo time is my fun, my joy, my refuge from stress. I am not going to turn my banjo time into yet another job. So, maybe someday, I will get the drop thumb down, but for now, I see no reason to do so. I rarely encounter a tune that I want to play that absolutely requires drop thumb.

Now, all of the above goes to support those who say that drop thumb should be taught from the beginning, and I think that is a very valid position.

However-----I am ALSO convinced that some who do, should not! The lack of rhythm and drive is very evident in some players, and they don't seem to grasp that anything is missing. Their playing is usually clean and precise, and has all the right techniques. But, does it make you want to dance?

mwc9725e - Posted - 05/04/2012:  15:05:35

quote:

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Originally posted by Carlos Benavides

quote:

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Originally posted by ceemonster



 We all want to take pride in saying "I am me, and this is my music," 

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 I think I disagree, if I understood you correctly. A lot of players, not necessarily beginners, either, say " I want to sound just like _______". And if the player we emulate uses a lot of drop thumb, well then we would just naturally want to follow suit.

So those folks don't just want to be "me". For example how many Elvis impersonators have we all heard over the years? And I think that may be why bluegrass all sounds so much alike to some of us -- everyone wants to sound just like Earl.

erikforgod - Posted - 05/04/2012:  16:06:22

quote:

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Originally posted by banjo bill-e

I did not choose, at first. I started with Patrick Costello on the internet. He did not drop thumb, at first, and he whacked the head of the banjo in time with the music. I thought it sounded cool (still do!), so that is how I started. Then I encountered Dwight Diller's music, and I loved what I was hearing, so I got some of his DVDs to learn from. DD did not whack the banjo head, but his music has a very percussive nature, that I loved. Still do. As discussed, the DT is not part of his introductory instruction. By the time that I encountered drop thumb I was already playing a bit, and liking what I was hearing. When I tried to incorporate it, I was useless. So, I began to do some drills, and I did get to where I can do the technique. So, if I want to claim to be a drop-thumber, then I could do so. BUT! My playing really sucks when I do. It sounds like a student doing a drill. I does not sound like music, and it does not pass my big test: does it make me want to dance?

Then, I DID choose. I chose to enjoy playing my banjo, right now where I am with it. My life is very hectic and stressful these days (small business owner trying to survive this recession/depression) and my banjo time is my fun, my joy, my refuge from stress. I am not going to turn my banjo time into yet another job. So, maybe someday, I will get the drop thumb down, but for now, I see no reason to do so. I rarely encounter a tune that I want to play that absolutely requires drop thumb.



Now, all of the above goes to support those who say that drop thumb should be taught from the beginning, and I think that is a very valid position.



However-----I am ALSO convinced that some who do, should not! The lack of rhythm and drive is very evident in some players, and they don't seem to grasp that anything is missing. Their playing is usually clean and precise, and has all the right techniques. But, does it make you want to dance?

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Great comment...I agreed with you on all points...however I think that drop-thumb adds life to the rhythm and does make one dance...I disagree with the notion that some seem to think that drop thumb ads some precision and technicality but takes away from rhythm. If it does than something is wrong.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 05/04/2012:  16:32:59

Well, drop thumb surely does not hurt Dan Gellert, who brilliantly stated that banjo players should listen to James Brown! If anything makes me master drop thumb, it will be Dan's funky banjo playing. I agree that there is no reason for it to be an either/or proposition, I was just making an observation.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 05/04/2012:  16:48:15

This may be a little off subject at this point, but I teach the drop thumb stuff on the FIRST lesson.  It is just a mental thing to think that it is hard.  I probably drop my thumb far more than most banjo players.  If I  am on the first string,,,my thumb is dropping.  If I am playing melody on the 4th string, my thumb drops to the 4th.  Students learn that if they can drop the thumb, they can always NOT drop it. It is just a great tool to have in the banjo player's bag of finger patterns.  

banjo bill-e - Posted - 05/04/2012:  17:01:00

--"If I am playing melody on the 4th string, my thumb drops to the 4th."


I don't understand. How can you play a 4th string note, and drop your thumb to the 4th string? Would that not kill the note that you just played?

captbanjo - Posted - 05/04/2012:  17:43:22

'Drop Thumb' sounds macabre...maybe we should rename it 'Reposition Thumb'?

Wayne

leemysliwiec - Posted - 05/04/2012:  18:18:37

quote:

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Originally posted by banjo bill-e

--"If I am playing melody on the 4th string, my thumb drops to the 4th."





I don't understand. How can you play a 4th string note, and drop your thumb to the 4th string? Would that not kill the note that you just played?

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What I mean is that if I am on the 4th string, I play those notes with my thumb often but not always.  I rarely use the second string for melody.  Since my first instrument is the fiddle, I sort of finger the banjo like a fiddle.  

ceemonster - Posted - 05/04/2012:  18:49:44

[Actually in my opinion I think you are seeing into this a little too far. ] the quote you are addressing was not taking a stand about drop-thumbing versus not drop-thumbing....it were focused on my query as to why people get so wrought-up over the issue, which is a separate question, though one very germane to this thread....

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 05/04/2012:  19:25:18

quote:

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Originally posted by captbanjo

'Drop Thumb' sounds macabre...maybe we should rename it 'Reposition Thumb'?

Wayne

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We called it "double thumbing" when I was first learning to play. But I understand that's used for a lot of other stuff in the music.

ZEPP - Posted - 05/04/2012:  19:42:54

quote:

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Originally posted by banjo bill-e

I don't understand. How can you play a 4th string note, and drop your thumb to the 4th string? Would that not kill the note that you just played?

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Nope, I frequently play a downstroke on a string followed immediately by a thumb dropped to that same string.  Here's a YouTube video in which I play the same note on 3rd string 4 times consecutively, alternating between downstrokes and thumbs.  I did it several times in this recording, beginning at 1:04.

Cheers,

ZEPP

Edited by - ZEPP on 05/04/2012 19:45:41

banjo bill-e - Posted - 05/04/2012:  20:19:20

That's pretty tricky Mr. Zepp, very cool playing there. Do you use a different motion for this technique? I could not tell from the video. I've been trying to have the thumb land in the same motion as when the frail strikes, which would be impossible with THIS use of double thumb----would it not? Whatever, that sounds great.

Snowbird - Posted - 05/04/2012:  20:23:39

This should put the whole issue into proper perspective I think...
youtube.com/watch?v=LqN-5GgqHho