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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/235056/2
stevel - Posted - 05/02/2012: 12:18:09
quote:
Originally posted by JTRoberts
Stevel:
Being able to "do all the things" (including drop thumb) and "make all the sounds" is far far far less important than playing with duende..........the indescribable feeling that envelopes and stirs the soul. The captivating feeling that moves you with the sweet yet sad experience of life. The musicians who convey this experience are not the ones who have the most complex technique.
my apologies for trying to help you become a better banjo player.
feel free to limit your abilities as you seem fit.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/02/2012: 12:26:41
quote:
Originally posted by stevel
quote:
Originally posted by Bard
@JTRoberts
it was not only your quotes, but also what I read on this page from his website.
Thinking for myself, I already noticed after couple of weeks only using my thumb on fifth string, it is hard to move the thumb to the inner strings, and am afraid if I wait any longer, it will only be more difficult to learn. I do like the sound you get with drop-thumbing though.
ding ding ding! we have a winner.
i avoided a lot of drop thumbing in the beginning... trying to find work arounds and replacements for the technique... all along fooling myself into the mindset that i didn't need to learn drop-thumbing... one of the staples of old-time banjo technique.
in the end that approach set me back several months. i had gotten so comfortable playing without it, that when it came time to use it, i had to slam on the breaks and retrain my right hand. i had to slow my music down to a crawl just to get those notes in there. it irritated the heck out of me.
this is why i emphasize learning that technique right from the beginning. you don't know what you don't know.... which is why preaching its un-importance is a detriment to the banjo community.
lastly, i have yet to find a way to get "snaps" on the back-beat without drop-thumbing.
YMMV
I am not sure Stevel and I are talking abou t the same thing but a sharp syncopated snap with the thumb is one of my favourite moves (or was when I played more) I frequently would play an 0pen 1st string with the frailer, then rush a thumb snap on the melody note immediately after (like about a 32nd note after the frail). Offsetting the melody by that much for that one note. I called it cheap syncopation at the time and I was the only person I knew who did it. Then around 1978 it started showing up at the summer festivals. I've never had the nerve to say I invented the move, but I was a very early adaptor.
erikforgod - Posted - 05/02/2012: 12:28:48
quote:
Originally posted by Bard
quote:
Originally posted by JTRoberts
...
From the website of Mr. Dwight Diller
probably shouldn't have read that, cause its screwing my head up big time. Unlike others, his teaching clawhammer banjo it so different from others, it doesn't even seem to coexist together. Please help...
Bard - Dont feel flustered...I too heard the same thing with regards to drop-thumb and for the first few weeks or so didnt approach it because I thought the "well I just wont be ready for it until later" approach was the right way to go. After following up on some threads, reading and investigating and at the encouragement of others here on the forum...I dove right into drop-thumb shortly after. I actually found out that it "wasnt as bad" as some others were making it out to be. It took some focus and determination, but I eventually "found my drop-thumb" If somebody doesnt want to drop-thumb, nothing wrong with that if thats their approach, thatys fine, they can still make some good music, but it will unfortunately not allow that player to do "certain things" that they obviously would be able to do if they did know how. I am glad I got started with it early on and didnt look back.
What Dwight says about rhythmic things with the left hand is good as well...but that doesnt negate drop-thumb as something that can only be learned later. I say jump right into drop-thumb and go for it....it will be another valuable technique added to your arsenal that can only "enrich" and not "hinder" your progress and playing.
erikforgod - Posted - 05/02/2012: 12:48:15
You know it kinda seems like with some folks from this thread and different threads I have read in the past that maybe not learning to play drop-thumb or certain other techniques is that it is somehow perceived as "cliche" and "mainstream"....what a shame! It seems perfectly logical to me to want to try and learn different techniques and improve? What gives? Why all the dissention with regards to this subject? LOL
Edited by - erikforgod on 05/02/2012 12:49:17
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/02/2012: 12:54:14
I have to admit that this is the first clawhammer thread I've ever read where someone has mentioned "Duende" which is Garcia Lorca for "Soul". I was a flamenco guitar for about a decade and I never considered the major dance forms to be a good place for overly dramatic readings with lots of Alma y Duende, or Sturm und Drang for you Germanophiles.
This is old time music, here folks. The music of people who hide their slightest emotions at all times, not the music of Gypsies who cry on command and have been selling their versions of Torch Songs to the turistas for 100 years now. I like Ella or Julie London moaning out Cry Me a River as well as anyone, but I don't see it as a good pattern for my playing of Bonaparte Crossing The Rhine or Chicken Reel. Perhaps Go Tell Aunt Rhody.
Crump - Posted - 05/02/2012: 12:59:36
Good response Oldwoodchuck! Couldn't agree more, and by the way, thanks for defining Duende for me - I thought in the context it was provided it meant "too sensitive".
steve j. - Posted - 05/02/2012: 13:02:05
erik
I think who wants to learn what comes down to age, desire and their end game view. My friend talks about her grandpa , that set on the porch and never picked nothin but cripple creek. If that made him happy, he got what he was after. Im all for learning new stuff. and all for forgetting it and just playing. Cause you dont really forget it ,, it just morphs. I hope my playing improves, but even now Im happy playing.
I makes me no difference if somebody up picks or strokes or whatever. Fun is the name of the game. of course I have small ambitions , luckily LOL
no fussin here , just a point of view
erikforgod - Posted - 05/02/2012: 13:22:07
Gee wizz...I live in Argentina and am a fluent spanish speaker...I had not heard "duende" before LOL! Steve I can relate to the granpa pickin in the porch analogy...my family is from Kentucky and my grandad was a true Kentuckian 100%. He never played banjo but he loved the sound of it. Playing my banjo in a way brings back alot of fond memories I have of my "popaw" he was like my dad in many ways...we were that close...so for many..I included there is a strong "nostalgia" aspect.
Either way...I dont think there is any one or "method" really that can put a time frame on when or when not to learn drop-thumb....I say go for it!!
Edited by - erikforgod on 05/02/2012 13:24:38
JTRoberts - Posted - 05/02/2012: 13:29:04
Mr. Crump:
To say that I "came out swinging" is silly and unsubstantiated.
You said "a lot of people are just lazy" How many of these many people do you personally know (showing your post to be based on more than conjecture)?
Furthermore, where I come from calling, people "lazy" does not earn any respect.
Mr. Woodchuck:
You may have an ax to grind with Mr. Diller, but to call him an "okay" player laughable. The supposed quote from Mr. Diller calling a student "a hopeless case" is questionable since you heard it from a friend of a friend. This is called heresay. If you have an ax to grind with another musician, you would be a man of character to say it to his face, and not in his absence.
JTRoberts - Posted - 05/02/2012: 13:45:12
Folks:
I have reread this entire thread, and I now consider it to be a major waste of my time and energy. The concept of duende (soul, but so much more), and playing with feeling is mocked by the technicians.
Aspersions are cast. Other musicians attacked. I wonder if those who love drop thumb (it is only a technique) realize how cultish and dismissive they have become? This will be my last post on this thread.
majikgator - Posted - 05/02/2012: 14:28:12
" the THWACK factor is unbeatable. Just my opinion. " If for no other reason (and there are many) i just love that sound especially if it sounds unintentional.
ceemonster - Posted - 05/02/2012: 14:30:58
a term equivalent to "duende" is a commonality to all folk genres, it just has different names. in irish they call it draicht. the irish slang term nyah sometimes can mean an equivalent of duende. the irish also say, "the lonesome touch." there's "the high lonesome sound." some african-american genres called it "soul" before that term lost its original sense from overuse. all kinds of terms for that thing, i've also heard it called, "the haunt factor." the presence of what the jungians call the daemon.
in instrumental folk music based on or derived from dance music, that "thing" is just about always hand-in-hand with rhythm, a big sub-factor of which means, syncopation, often known as, "swing." the trick is that syncopation is calibrated or jiggered differently in every different genre. syncopation means, some notes stressed more, some less. and that means---spaces and silences. that is where another set of sayings come from---and you hear variants of this one out of the mouths of master musicians in every single musical genre too---to the effect of, it's not the notes, it's the spaces between the notes. or, it's not what you're playing, it's the silences, etc.
that is what dwight diller is trying to get across. putting aside his views on early drop-thumbing as a hindrance to rhythm, or his pedagogical methods, which i don't know anything about save anecdotally, he is absolutely right about the rhythm and the syncopation being the essence of the thing. and he has the draicht and the nyah, boy, does he ever.
but on the drop-thumbing issue, i think the fact that it is even labeled and viewed as a separate or specialized thing in this playing, is the only cloud on the horizon here. i agree with this:
[Bluegrassers and folk guitarists do it all the time!!!]
playing with your thumb is not a specialized or advanced thing in banjo picking or finger-picking guitar, see, country blues, piedmont blues, ragtime, chicken-picking, etc. it's just part of how you play that music, and it's no harder than anything else. it's the same for clawhammer. the tizzy over "drop-thumbing" is a Borgesian wing-wang wherein the taxonomy (in this case, even having a separate term for it) is dictating how the thing is viewed.
or, this!
[2) A lot of beginners are told that drop-thumbing is this extremely difficult advanced
technique that shouldn't even be attempted until one has played bum-ditty for at
least a decade and studied with a banjo guru in the Tibetan Himalayas. Seriously,
they are psyched out of drop-thumbing in the beginning and form a mental block.]
banjo bill-e - Posted - 05/02/2012: 14:36:48
Where does all this negativity come from? Not from the banjo, and not from the music, that's for sure.
I do not usually recommend Dwight Diller as a "remote source"---books, DVDS, videos, etc, because his teachings are, I will admit, a BIT hard to grasp sometimes. Often, it seems like what he is REALLY teaching is not *exactly* what he is saying, or doing. However, some of the best players that I have heard have had instruction from him in person, and to a man, believe that the experience was of great value. But as a player? Are you kidding me? To me he sets the standard of what clawhammer banjo can be, and few alive can touch him. He makes the music come alive. Maybe listen to your playing, and ask, Do I make the music come alive? Does my music have power and passion? Do I HAVE to move when I hear it? If not, maybe, just maybe, Mr. Diller has something of value to teach you, too.
Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 05/02/2012: 14:59:12
quote:
Originally posted by JTRoberts
Crump:
Thank you for your response. Don't you think opinions should be based on something rather than pure conjecture?
Stevel:
Being able to "do all the things" (including drop thumb) and "make all the sounds" is far far far less important than playing with duende..........the indescribable feeling that envelopes and stirs the soul. The captivating feeling that moves you with the sweet yet sad experience of life. The musicians who convey this experience are not the ones who have the most complex technique.
Uh, wait a moment: that last bit is pure conjecture on your part. (It's also a bit silly, as many many players who play with great feeling do so while using very complex techniques indeed!)
But because they've mastered those complex techniques, listeners frequently don't understand how difficult the pieces are until they try them themselves: whereupon they usually say something like, "OMG!" to themselves.
I remember Doc Watson's guitar playing doing that exact thing to me many years ago, and it's happened several other times since then too...
~Pete
Califiddler - Posted - 05/02/2012: 15:08:17
quote:
Originally posted by stevel
...
i avoided a lot of drop thumbing in the beginning...
in the end that approach set me back several months. i had gotten so comfortable playing without it, that when it came time to use it, i had to slam on the breaks and retrain my right hand. i had to slow my music down to a crawl just to get those notes in there. it irritated the heck out of me.
I played bum-ditty for a year or so before trying drop-thumb. I had gotten to the point where I could play some tunes, like Cripple Creek, pretty fast and with a pretty driving rhythm with bum-ditty, slides, hammer-ons and pull-offs.
When I started trying to drop-thumb, I, too, had to slow everything down to a crawl. It is really frustrating. I play a bunch of instruments and lots of different styles of music, and other than learning to play fiddle, I think that drop-thumbing has been the most difficult thing for me to learn. After a couple of years with it I am still nowhere near comfortable with it.
I do feel that staying with the bum-ditty (in terms of RH) for so long hurt me. I would strongly recommend that anyone who wants to drop-thumb start doing it as soon as possible.
Edited by - Califiddler on 05/02/2012 15:22:04
Califiddler - Posted - 05/02/2012: 15:16:31
quote:
Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford
As I've said before:
Drop-thumbing is not that hard- Bluegrassers and folk guitarists do it all the time!!!
I see two things that lead to drop-thumb failure.
1) Some teachers have their students hold the hand in a *rigid* claw and "hook"
the 5th string. This sort of hand position is not conducive to drop thumbing as
those students have a hard time getting the thumb to the inside strings.
2) A lot of beginners are told that drop-thumbing is this extremely difficult advanced
technique that shouldn't even be attempted until one has played bum-ditty for at
least a decade and studied with a banjo guru in the Tibetan Himalayas. Seriously,
they are psyched out of drop-thumbing in the beginning and form a mental
block.
To me, it's kind of like teaching a child to swim before he's developed a fear of the water.
It's the same thing with "all those tunings!!!"
Yes, you should have your basic rhythm straight first (bum-ditty or whatever), but that shouldn't take a lifetime.
RD, I think that one big difference with Scruggs style and folk guitar fingerpicking is that, in both of those styles, one or two of the fingers (pinky or pinky and ring finger) of the RH are anchored on the top of the instrument. That makes it easier to move the thumb to other strings accurately. With frailing, the RH is just out there, not anchored to anything.
The other big difference is that, if you play bum-ditty for a while, you get really used to having that thumb on the 5th string only. That becomes your muscle memory, and it is really difficult to break out of, for me, anyway.
Edited by - Califiddler on 05/02/2012 15:21:24
mbuk06 - Posted - 05/02/2012: 15:20:56
I surely can't be the only person on here to be a bit confused at how this topic has caused people to get heated. Over what? personally I enjoy that drop thumb has become a natural and instinctive part of my playing after figuring it out and practice. But it's completely pointless to judge anyone because they do or don't play the same way. And the original post was a simple question seeking information. The answer is 'yes'. Just my two cents.
erikforgod - Posted - 05/02/2012: 15:52:47
quote:
Originally posted by mbuk06
I surely can't be the only person on here to be a bit confused at how this topic has caused people to get heated. Over what? personally I enjoy that drop thumb has become a natural and instinctive part of my playing after figuring it out and practice. But it's completely pointless to judge anyone because they do or don't play the same way. And the original post was a simple question seeking information. The answer is 'yes'. Just my two cents.
I agree...just a lot of rabble-rousing over nothing...
captbanjo - Posted - 05/02/2012: 16:31:47
Yes, Yes and YES! Thanks for stating what should be an obvious point that many won't buy into. As a clawhammer kinda sorta guy, I'm still getting all the pieces together. I also play bluegrass five. In the Irish tenor world, I play the four-string with a thumb pick and two plastic finger picks:
youtube.com/watch?v=WaqPmE68xBE
While most musicians are fine with it, you'd be surprised by the session police who state only a plectrum can be used. Barney McKenna (RIP) probably unintentionally had a lot to do with that thinking.
Simply not true. It's music and I either play it well or I don't. The tools I use influence that sound; picks, banjo, strings, etc. but it either sounds good or it doesn't.
You said it all in a couple of sentences and I think your attitude applies elsewhere in the music world too.
Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by Coonskin
Drop thumb is just one of many ways to frail the banjo...Doc Watson makes a point of describing how he doesn't drop...using only hammers and pulls.
The obsession with Roundpeak and the broad dissemination of generic playing "standards" are funneling people down a narrow road, but really, you can do whatever you can make sound musical.
leemysliwiec - Posted - 05/02/2012: 16:43:01
If one worked at the drop thumb pattern for just about one minute a day, I suspect that they would have it down Pat in a week or two. It only has to be learned ONCE. Try to put it in every tune that lends itself to it at least ONCE during the tune. It won't take as long to learn as it does to read about it. LEE
hoverflytheo - Posted - 05/02/2012: 16:53:48
Well I really don't drop thumb much. When I do it's for rhythm, not melody notes. I know it would be useful, BUT I never played plain bum-ditty anyway, and for me, the tunes dictate the timing for my fingers.
If that means the fifth string gets hit after every beat or every other beat, so be it. If it means it gets hit after every bar (i.e. in lots of polkas and hornpipes), my thumb stays out of the way for the intervening notes. In other metres, like waltzes, jigs and slip jigs, I basically use the 5th string as an occasional ornament rather than a fixed drone.
If I need extra notes, I find it a lot more conducive to get them either with the left hand or with and extra downbeat from the frailer (unbound, as it is, by being part of the bum-ditty.)
Perhaps as I progress further, drop thumb will drop into my tunes, but at present, if I use it for a melody note, it's for one I'd usually play with the right or left hand anyway, not one I can't get any other way.
It's not for lack of control over my right thumb. I play thumb lead banjo and thumb lead fingerstyle guitar. And I'm relatively happy not anchoring my hand for a lot of guitar work, too. I think it's more that in those styles, the thumb is playing lead, so I don't considering that I'm "dropping" it in the way I would be if I was leading with my fingers.
JTRoberts - Posted - 05/02/2012: 17:32:55
I have returned for one final post on this thread to add clarity:
Frailing (heavy use of rhythm and little or no use of drop thumb) is an African approach. They realized that the banjo is also a drum. Clawhammer (which includes melodic clawnhammer, makes frequent use of drop thumb) and is a White approach to old time banjo. For the most part African and Black American music makes you want to shake your a** due to the heavy emphasis of driving rhythm. It is a tribal thing. For the most part White American music makes have an intellectual response.
If I were to explain the concept of duende to my Black brother and sisters, they would immediately get it after just a few words. They would say "yeah baby, you're talkin bout soul". To explain this concept to my White American Brothers and Sisters takes a lot of work, because this a bit beyond their cultural experience. For the most part white music does not make you want to shake it. Musicians like Elvis were an exception, but he stole it from the brutas.
I always mention Mr. Dwight Diller, because he is a National Treasure (although he probably would balk at that title). He is without a doubt one of the finest, if not the finest OT banjo player alive today, and his teaching methods have touched (in an inspiring way) the lives of many. And.........he plays like a black man.
erikforgod - Posted - 05/02/2012: 18:01:06
quote:
Originally posted by JTRoberts
I have returned for one final post on this thread to add clarity:
Frailing (heavy use of rhythm and little or no use of drop thumb) is an African approach. They realized that the banjo is also a drum. Clawhammer (which includes melodic clawnhammer, makes frequent use of drop thumb) and is a White approach to old time banjo. For the most part African and Black American music makes you want to shake your a** due to the heavy emphasis of driving rhythm. It is a tribal thing. For the most part White American music makes have an intellectual response.
If I were to explain the concept of duende to my Black brother and sisters, they would immediately get it after just a few words. They would say "yeah baby, you're talkin bout soul". To explain this concept to my White American Brothers and Sisters takes a lot of work, because this a bit beyond their cultural experience. For the most part white music does not make you want to shake it. Musicians like Elvis were an exception, but he stole it from the brutas.
I always mention Mr. Dwight Diller, because he is a National Treasure (although he probably would balk at that title). He is without a doubt one of the finest, if not the finest OT banjo player alive today, and his teaching methods have touched (in an inspiring way) the lives of many. And.........he plays like a black man.
Are you "so" certain that african-american musicians in the past used little or no drop thumb? Where are your sources for this information? How do you know that? You might be surprised that maybe alot of them did play it and maybe more drop thumb to their playing than you think. You also seem to be making the assertion that if one plays a certain amount of drop thumb in their music that they have no "soul or rhythm" and I am sorry but I disagree. I mean to throw a statement out there in general and to just say that "drop-thumb" is a white approach to playing music is absurd..its just another "technique" it has nothing to do with anything cultural. Its from my understanding that drop-thumb was popularized by a certain few musicians from the Mount Airy region of North Carolina, I am not sure so maybe you can educate me about that since you seem to know so much.
Edited by - erikforgod on 05/02/2012 18:08:13
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/02/2012: 18:30:50
Mr Roberts.
I heard the quote directly from the man who was told he could never be a banjo player by the aforementioned Dwight Diller and less than a week after it occurred. I felt bad for quite some time afterward, because the student in question was one of the best banjo players I've ever met. I was trying to elp him build up confidence - the only ability he really lacked - He had been to a couple of sadistic teachers who belittle students rather than help them. This is a crime against the student, but still entirely too prevalent in the musical arts. I also heard the story from his wife and have heard similar hurtful put downs from others who took lessons from Diller. I don't "Quote" them only because I have no exact quotes. I also have no reason to believe my student or the others were lying to me.
On the subject of listening to Dwight Diller's banjo playing:
He never has struck me as more than an average player, and I somewhat rue the money I've spent on his albums. You like him - I don't. We are talking opinion when it comes to his playing, and I will always defend my right to not like anyone's playing. Diller bores me. His rhythm is right on - in fact he seems to be all metronome and no swing - I prefer banjo players who can do both.
But it does not matter why I dislike his playing, the fact is it is my right to like whom I wish to and not like others. It is your right too. If you think my statements are sour grapes or some need to extract revenge on Diller - you are wrong. I don't expect my opinions to have any effect on his life or his on mine. I always hold my tongue when it comes to students (mine or others) because I don't want to hurt a fragile ego. Players on this forum know I always critique their playing from a positive angle - and never critique them in front of others. But once someone is recorded I figure they can survive no matter what I say, and I can therefore express my opinion openly. I say similar things about Earl Scruggs (another guy who couldn't swing) and The Black Eyed Peas who are actually more boring than the average metronome. I dislike a lot of music. Other than the Marley and Jimmy Clift you can toss the entire Reggae/Ska horde into the sea so far as I'm concerned. I dislike more album by Ritchie Stearns (one of my favourite banjo players) than I like. I love to play with him and can understand what he is doing. But that rhythm dude from Africa sets my teeth on edge big time.Taste is taste. You can have yours, but I can have mine too and we both have the right to state an opinion.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/02/2012: 18:43:47
quote:
Originally posted by erikforgod
Gee wizz...I live in Argentina and am a fluent spanish speaker...I had not heard "duende" before LOL! Steve I can relate to the granpa pickin in the porch analogy...my family is from Kentucky and my grandad was a true Kentuckian 100%. He never played banjo but he loved the sound of it. Playing my banjo in a way brings back alot of fond memories I have of my "popaw" he was like my dad in many ways...we were that close...so for many..I included there is a strong "nostalgia" aspect.
Either way...I dont think there is any one or "method" really that can put a time frame on when or when not to learn drop-thumb....I say go for it!!
Eric, Duende is a gypsy word - or at least a word only used by the gypsys so far as I know- and only by the Callie gypsys at that. It essentially means "soul" but the people who worship Garcia Lorcaflourid works will tell you it means so much more that other languages cannot begin to express. I have to admit that I tend to get a bit impatient when Flamenco listeners (that great majority who play not, sing not, and dance not) start using the term. I've never met a guitarist or dancer who talked about duende but I've met few gypsy flamencos I could communicate with at all - I speak no Spanish, beyond high school phrases. I suspect that duende might be more commonly discussed among singers. Flamenco is highly stylized music and I can see where it might be a term with more meaning to singers - especially Gypsy singers. I don't think it means much in American Old Time, although listening to solo singing from the mountains I do hear some of the vocal embellishments the flamencos use and wonder if the songs don't actually meet in a common language long forgotten by both the gypsy and the mountain woman.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/02/2012: 18:54:20
captbanjo,
I really enjoyed your fingerpicked reels. I've done similar things with a 5 string and even used to downpick some Irish tunes, but I never really got that sound you get - that Irish tenor sound. I could only get it with a flatpick. My congratulations on finding a way to fingerpick it successfully.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/02/2012: 19:23:31
On the subject of "black and white music entering the brain from different angles, I can only say I don't find this to be true. While I do find a lot of "white music" too straight up and boring for my taste, I find the same to be true of rap, and hip-hop to say nothing of a lot of bland reggae. I will admit to being guilty of using the phrase "Music even a white boy can dance to" in my life.
But to dismiss white folk music as some sort of intellectual game strikes me as screaming out one's ignorance. Have you never listened to A.L. Lloyd? have you never heard a Child ballad sung by Martin Carthy, or a modern English working class ballad by Ewan MacColl. Have you never listened to Scottish music - especially the slow march pipe tunes I cannot spell but which are pronounced something like "Peabrochks"? Are you unaware of Bulgarian Duotonic music? Most of the references I've made here can be easily found, and they are actually "commercial" versions of folk tunes, so they have been watered down from the original.
If you only divide music into white and black, where do the gypsies fit in? How about the indios of North, South and Central America? I could listen to Andean music played by Sukay or Groupo 5 for the rest of my life and not feel I was missing anything.
I have to admit I have little knowledge of Argentinean music, but I used to have a record by a woman known as the "South American Dylan" She accompanied herself on the charango and sang like the angels. She wrote "Gracias Por La Vida" a song that just about sums up the entire world for me. I wish I could find that album again - but at least I have an mp3 of the song by Mercedez Sosa, one of the great voices of the new world.
I won't get into Opera. I know it is probably the least popular form of music among American folk musicians. But if you want to talk about "duende" you have to know Puccini's Nessun Dorma before we can really get down to the nitti-gritti.
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 05/02/2012 19:28:41
Snowbird - Posted - 05/02/2012: 20:24:25
I suppose that everyone is entitled to decide on their own which music they like or dont like. I will however take exception to oldwoodchuck's suggestion that Dwight Diller is an average player and I will offer up this video in support..
youtube.com/watch?v=FUkO4nv81fk
Watch Mr. Diller's right hand closely. At no time do his fingers leave his hand. This is probably my favorite banjo performance (I could listen to this all day) and I am afraid I dont see anything at all metronome like here. I do see awesome rhythm and drive. And a couple of truly splendid hats. Sadly I have not been able to find a video of any other banjo player attempting this tune. I would love to see someone oldwoodchuck considers an above average player have a go at this tune.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/02/2012: 20:34:34
Jimmy Johnson is a fairly popular tune around here but I don't recall any videos of it. Here is a working link to the youtube you reference.
youtube.com/watch?v=FUkO4nv81fk
I haven't played the tune for a few years.
panthersquall - Posted - 05/02/2012: 20:40:41
Turn on, tune up and drop thumb :-)
I, too, don't understand why this subject always ends up becoming such a heated discussion.
Do you like the sound of drop thumbing? Then give it a try.
Don't like the sound of it? Then leave it alone.
It's all fun for your fingers.
Play the way you feel it. With your own soul. However you see fit. Driving rhythm or melodic or some very pleasing combination of the two that you will develop over your many years of playing.
This is the Clawhammer and Old Time Styles category of banjo playing.
A big part of Old Time music involves the evolution of the African banjo style that happened with the people living in the mountains of Southern Appalachia, who created their own style. They did indeed play this music with their soul.
As do many of us today.
Feel free to do the same :-)
Be kind to one another.
Edited by - panthersquall on 05/02/2012 20:45:29
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/02/2012: 21:10:48
I don't see this discussion as being particularly heated in the first place. If we don't openly and fully express our opinions we might as well not post. This is a discussion forum - if we all agree there is nothing to discuss. If we can't disagree without getting huffy, I agree that perhaps it is time to drop out of the thread.
I am prefectly willing to defend any my opinions, but I don't get angry when I see contrary opnions by others. After all, it is just the internet. I will always try to make my point but there is never anything personal in it - not toward the other posters. I am simply attemptng to sway thier opinions to something closer to my opinion. I appreciate it when others attempt to do the same to my opinions - but I'm pretty settled in my ways - especially where it concerns people I don't think should be teaching.
The student is the teacher's purpose and the teacher must do whatever it takes to help the student. Student abuse is grounds for firing, as is musical incompetence - but of the two, abuse does far more damage.
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 05/02/2012 21:14:51
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/02/2012: 23:41:43
quote:
Originally posted by Califiddler
RD, I think that one big difference with Scruggs style and folk guitar fingerpicking is that, in both of those styles, one or two of the fingers (pinky or pinky and ring finger) of the RH are anchored on the top of the instrument. That makes it easier to move the thumb to other strings accurately. With frailing, the RH is just out there, not anchored to anything.
The other big difference is that, if you play bum-ditty for a while, you get really used to having that thumb on the 5th string only. That becomes your muscle memory, and it is really difficult to break out of, for me, anyway.
You're right about the different hand positions of course. I've made that *tongue-in-cheek* statement many times in the past, and you're the first to respond in that completely correct way. My real point is that it's a basic technique that, for Pete's sake, only requires one to play a string other than the fifth with the thumb!!! If Bluegrassers and finger-picking guitarists can skin that cat why can't we???
Your point about the bum-ditty is also apt, but especially so if you've been taught a particular usage of your thumb. The muscle-memory view is true........all the more reason to begin drop-thumb early.
Someone mentioned having become proficient with straight frailing only to have to return to a slow tempo to work in the DT. Perhaps begin slowly and bring it all along all at once.
Harpist - Posted - 05/03/2012: 00:20:12
You're right about the different hand positions of course. I've made that *tongue-in-cheek* statement many times in the past, and you're the first to respond in that completely correct way. My real point is that it's a basic technique that, for Pete's sake, only requires one to play a string other than the fifth with the thumb!!! If Bluegrassers and finger-picking guitarists can skin that cat why can't we???
-------
When I played tunes on the guitar, I used my thumbnail almost exclusively in the same way as a plectrum, picking both down and up. So, drop thumbing was no big deal when I started playing banjo a few months ago. What doesn't come so easily is maintaining the rhythm, attack and drive that straight frailing gives you - but that can be worked on
mbuk06 - Posted - 05/03/2012: 00:49:00
quote:
Originally posted by JTRoberts
Most white folks can't jump, play receiver in the NFL, and don't have much rhythm. Go to concerts and watch them clap out of time. Now, I am not being critical (...)
Actually, yes you are. Very. I quoted your comment as you seem to believe your massive generalisations are being mis-read or misinterpreted.
Rhythm is an innately human instinct. Some individuals are more blessed or practiced with it than others but it's simply ridiculous to claim any one cultural group lacks it.
And in response to other comments...attaching the judgement 'average' to any musician does reveal an agenda despite the judger's protestations to the contrary. Of course we all like different styles and have personal favorites but that shouldn't imply a judgement call on ability. To call anyone of Dwight Diller's ability 'average' is needlessly insulting and I have to say rather arrogant on the part of the person who makes that call.
Good music is good music.
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/03/2012: 01:37:31
For an historical perspective on drop-thumbing:
Cecelia Conway in her "African Banjo Echoes in Appalachia" writes:
Fred Mather learned the technique in 1846 or '48 from Joel Sweeney who learned it from his family's slaves in Virginia.
The technique appears in 11 out of 35 thumb-strokes in one part of Black banjo-player Dink Roberts' rendition of "Fox Chase".
To many mountain people, "it seems to be the banjo technique that separates the back-porch picker from the engaging musicianer".
Hobart Smith regarded John Greer as the best banjo player he had ever heard largely because of his drop-thumbing ability.
Conway also refers to drop-thumbing as a "fundamental technique" in both mountain and Black banjo styles.
RG - Posted - 05/03/2012: 02:07:32
Originally posted by JTRoberts
"I always mention Mr. Dwight Diller, because he is a National Treasure (although he probably would balk at that title). He is without a doubt one of the finest, if not the finest OT banjo player alive today, and his teaching methods have touched (in an inspiring way) the lives of many. And.........he plays like a black man."
If you really want to hear a player that has a lot of African-American influence to his playing listen to Dan Gellert, in my opinion he has a lot more "soul" in his playing than Dwight Diller, who sounds much more in the White Appalachian vein to me, especially since the bulk of his playing style is based on listening to the Hammon's family...Dan sounds like Dink and Lucius when he plays the banjar...if you're going to throw out "if not the finest OT banjo player alive", Dan has to be pretty high up on that list...oh yeah, a lot of drop thumbs too...
youtube.com/watch?v=W4P9flsVenQ
youtube.com/watch?v=jJNhtaSYDiQ
youtube.com/watch?v=QPEy2SwkMo...e=related
youtube.com/watch?v=BseSt4xeyzg
And BTW, Dan really plays those "blue" notes on the fiddle like no one else...possibly the best interpeter of OT music out there in my opinion...here's a little desert for you...the old Kentucky fiddle tune "Black Jack Grove"...
youtube.com/watch?v=o2sW8tCFjP...re=relmfu
African American banjo can be pretty complex and still rhythmic (just like Angle banjo playing), try to figure out Lucius Smith or "Big Sweet" Hariston's playing, to paraphrase Deaf Lester Crawdad's earlier post, it sounds so simple until you try to play it...
Edited by - RG on 05/03/2012 02:18:52
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/03/2012: 02:43:17
both classical and flamenco guitar are played without any fingers stationed and both involve "drop thumb" I can't think of any finger style fretted instrument playing that does not involve drop thumb.
hoverflytheo - Posted - 05/03/2012: 03:39:58
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
both classical and flamenco guitar are played without any fingers stationed and both involve "drop thumb" I can't think of any finger style fretted instrument playing that does not involve drop thumb.
Are you including electric bass?
erikforgod - Posted - 05/03/2012: 05:04:22
Someone mentioned having become proficient with straight frailing only to have to return to a slow tempo to work in the DT. Perhaps begin slowly and bring it all along all at once.
I think you "hit the nail on the head with this one R.D. I have actually begun to do just that recently...I am resisting the urge right now to try and learn new songs and just instead focusing on what I have learned up to this point and taking a closer look at my right hand and what is happening. I think that there has been a miss conception as well possibly put forth by a few on this thread that somehow "drop-thumb" also equates a loss of drive in ones banjo playing. I couldnt disagree more..plus its not always all about drive but really it should be more about "the music" I think always associating the banjo with drive is a missconception in its won merit. Actually in my opinion the drop thumb can kind of help with a bit with the "lilt and "swing" in the music as WoodChuck suggests. I just dont understand why such a stink and a stigma is being created over such a great technique like "drop-thumb" I really dont get the controversy it creates for some.
I have to admit I have little knowledge of Argentinean music, but I used to have a record by a woman known as the "South American Dylan" She accompanied herself on the charango and sang like the angels. She wrote "Gracias Por La Vida" a song that just about sums up the entire world for me. I wish I could find that album again - but at least I have an mp3 of the song by Mercedez Sosa, one of the great voices of the new world.
WoodChuck I was going to mention Mercedez Sosa, but I will have to ask my Argentine wife about "The South American Dylan" I think Argentina is a potential breeding ground for a future folk and old-time boom as they have such a love for music and the arts here.
My only disagreement with what the other gentlemen wrote in his comment ( before he got offended and left ) is that I felt he was trying to make a distinction in saying that "drop-thumb" is a technique that was brought on by white musicians and that straight up frailing is somehow the straight up true African style. Now I am not expert, maybe thats true, but I have never heard that before. How does he know that? Where did he hear that from? Its my understanding that this guy Charlie Lowe popularized the drop thumb style around the Mt Airy area known as Round Peak ( someone can correct me on this ) But how de we know, or dont know that this wasnt a style that wasnt passed on through the generational ranks and didnt originate with an african american somewhere? I think we should assume there was as much diversity in african style banjo ( and earlier gourd instrument playing ) as there is today. Why should we make a distinction? Do we really know this? Marc went to Mali and from what I remember him mentioning, he saw a plethora of african playing styles while there. I just dont think we can make that kind of distinction between drop-thumb and straight up playing and make such statements can we?
Edited by - erikforgod on 05/03/2012 05:15:18
captbanjo - Posted - 05/03/2012: 05:08:11
Thank you sir. Also, thanks for stating quite a few viewpoints I have as well regarding the African American influences in music.
For the record, regarding someone else's comment here, I don't believe Elvis 'stole' anything anymore than almost any musician/singer does. We grow up hearing what we hear and liking what we like. We take it from there. Dylan liked Guthrie; Haggard liked Lefty; all bluegrass banjo players liked Earl.
Elvis did what he did because he loved it. He was good at it. That Elvis became wealthy by doing it has less with that than with timing and marketing (I'd like to thank the Colonel."). I actually hear a lot of Professor Longhair in Presley's vocals.
We're all rivers feeding into the same ocean.
Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
captbanjo,
I really enjoyed your fingerpicked reels. I've done similar things with a 5 string and even used to downpick some Irish tunes, but I never really got that sound you get - that Irish tenor sound. I could only get it with a flatpick. My congratulations on finding a way to fingerpick it successfully.
bublnsqueak - Posted - 05/03/2012: 05:32:48
Drop thumb my ass!
I'm gonna get me a photo like that there PollyWaffle - sure gets the blood riled up!
Originally Posted by Charles Darwin:
"As the resident male, Oldwoodchuck, surveys his heard a new female, Pollywaffle enters the territory. Coonskin is quick to see the opportunity and challenges. All the other males leap to OWC's defence, feeling safer with the known. But Coonskin won't go away. The fracas goes on for a long time the original cause of the argument forgotten.
Meanwhile Pollywaffle has gone quiet - whoever wins this contest of testosterone she knows her genes will carry on into the next generation. She has already won"
Or have I misread the situation?
P
Gudfala - Posted - 05/03/2012: 05:44:50
quote:
Originally posted by hoverflytheo
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
both classical and flamenco guitar are played without any fingers stationed and both involve "drop thumb" I can't think of any finger style fretted instrument playing that does not involve drop thumb.
Are you including electric bass?
I played bass well before banjo and my right-hand technique for playing slap bass style is almost identical to my technique for clawhammer. The shape of my hand is exactly the same but the angle of attack is different. Slapping any string other than the low E is essentially the same as drop thumbing my banjo.
chip arnold - Posted - 05/03/2012: 05:47:39
if you think that is all that's going on in this thread, then yes, you have probably misread the situation.
if you believe you have correctly analyzed and categorized the motives of all the contributors to this thread, then you may have overestimated your powers of discernment.
mwc9725e - Posted - 05/03/2012: 05:56:37
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
A person who knows how to drop thumb can choose to play without them. A person who does not know how to drop thumb does not have the choice. I try to teach in the manner that gives my students the most options for the future.
That makes too much sense, so it must not be true.
mwc9725e - Posted - 05/03/2012: 06:11:49
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
" He is strictly in the old school German Music Master Pattern - "No no no, you are all wrong. His assumption is that only by bullying his students, browbeating and shaming them will they ever learn. "
Well, gee OWC, those old Germans turned out more than a few good musicians. I'm sure you've heard of Beethoven, Mozart, and that clan of Bachs.
stevel - Posted - 05/03/2012: 06:27:44
JT- for someone who was complaining about folks using conjecture, I find your over generalized "Navin Johnson-esque" view of the music world to be counterproductive to your position. But that's all I'm going to say on that part.
You yourself said incorporating drop-thumbing into your music threw off your drive. That is not the technique's fault. It is not the style's fault. It is simply that you have not mastered the technique enough to use if effectively. If one is to take away a different understanding from your previous comment, then please feel free to elaborate.
I offered an alternate view, based on my own personal experience. I was struggling to get DT down fluently, and basically got frustrated to the point where I shelved it, and figured "nope, I don't need that tool in my toolkit". However, what I didn't know was that in about 6 months time, I would be dying to learn to play a delicious little fiddle tune. Come to find out, the only way to play that tune the way I wanted to was to use extensive drop-thumbing.
Suddenly, the assumption I had made months back to ignore this technique placed me in quite the predicament. Something I was so sure about 6 months prior was being re-evaluated. I realized I had been wrong in my "I don't need that technique" assessment. And it took me months to go back to the basics and learn to use the Drop-thumb fluently. This back-tracking is was seriously irritated me.
The great thing now, is I can do it without even thinking about it. Its a completely natural motion, and I'm amazed at how easy it is to execute. But you won't realize this until you've mastered it.
Back to one of my original comments- "you don't know what you don't know". I didn't know that down the road my musical tastes would bring more fiddle and melodic tunes into my repertoire. I didn't understand how avoiding a tried and true technique would handicap my playing due to my previous misconceptions.
I'm sure the first time you tried a hammer-on, or maybe a phantom hammer-on that your timing wasn't perfect. But did you abandon the hammer-ons? Probably not. You practiced and practiced until they became a staple in your playing. More of an afterthought.
If this doesn't help you understand where I'm coming from, than I'm not sure what else I can say. But based on my own experience, I try to tell all beginners to take the time to learn how to use all the techniques properly and efficiently. If this stalls your overall progress, don't get frustrated. Be patient. Because in the end, you'll be thankful you can truly decide not to use something, rather than to avoid it because it can't be done properly and it is throwing off your drive, rhythm, etc.
Edited by - stevel on 05/03/2012 06:34:06
bd - Posted - 05/03/2012: 07:27:56
quote:
Originally posted by erikforgod
Its my understanding that this guy Charlie Lowe popularized the drop thumb style around the Mt Airy area known as Round Peak ( someone can correct me on this )
Erik,
There are books filled with what I don't know about "Round Peak" playing, but I do know that the 19th century banjo manuals start drop thumbing right away. On page 10 of the Briggs manual the 2nd, 3rd, & 5th of the "Principal Movements" are drop thumb sequences.
And the very first song in the book (Mary Blane) not only has drop thumb but double noting the 5th string (isn't that characteristic of RP too?).
Not trying to snark or one up ya, just a little historical info.
erikforgod - Posted - 05/03/2012: 08:16:34
quote:
Originally posted by bd
quote:
Originally posted by erikforgod
Its my understanding that this guy Charlie Lowe popularized the drop thumb style around the Mt Airy area known as Round Peak ( someone can correct me on this )
Erik,
There are books filled with what I don't know about "Round Peak" playing, but I do know that the 19th century banjo manuals start drop thumbing right away. On page 10 of the Briggs manual the 2nd, 3rd, & 5th of the "Principal Movements" are drop thumb sequences.
And the very first song in the book (Mary Blane) not only has drop thumb but double noting the 5th string (isn't that characteristic of RP too?).
Not trying to snark or one up ya, just a little historical info.
No this is great and thanks for providing this...I think it could be safe to say that drop-thumb has deeper roots than we think...or at least than I thought. I will bet drop thumbing has its roots in african-american style playing as well...its just a hunch. Can someone clarify this?
Mark Johnson - Posted - 05/03/2012: 08:29:36
quote:
No this is great and thanks for providing this...I think it could be safe to say that drop-thumb has deeper roots than we think...or at least than I thought. I will bet drop thumbing has its roots in african-american style playing as well...its just a hunch. Can someone clarify this?
How far back would you like to go?
youtube.com/watch?v=b1zC4SSbdm...e=related
bd - Posted - 05/03/2012: 08:30:39
Here's a video of an Akonting player drop thumbing
Not a time machine but...pretty suggestive.
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