captbanjo - Posted - 05/06/2012:  10:14:31

Well I do have to admit when I'm wrong. As long as I've been around the net I've known better than to attack a troll and I violated my own rule.

The humor you claim to spread around got Imus removed from his job. I didn't agree with him and I don't agree with you. You hide behind thinly supported 'facts' and the use of 'humor' and 'truth' to spread discontent and disharmony. Won't work with me, as you'll never hear from me again.

In your future endeavors, perhaps you might consider talking about the music we ALL share, instead of trying to divide people with your 'humor'.

And for the record, the day job is Captain of Police, not lawyer.

Good luck to you and may God bless you sir,

Wayne

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

Mr Lunceford:



Well, I am certainly not RL Brunside, nor do I claim to be. I am just trying to bring a little joy into your life. In fact, if you step back and reflect, you may realize that this has been one of the most entertaining, and perhaps informative threads on banjo hangout in a long time.

 

Mr.erikforgod

No one has called me out nor corrected me. The african instrument presented has two drone string and one melody string. As such there is no drop thumb, only alternating drone strings.

Mr. Capt banjo: How can I be a racist if what I say is true? Besides calling someone a racist is an old lawyers tactic: If you can't attack the facts attack the person.

 

Now, I realize that some folks are enjoying this thread and some folks are getting their panties in a bunch. But that's life.

 

 

---

erikforgod - Posted - 05/06/2012:  10:19:19

Mr. Capt banjo: How can I be a racist if what I say is true? Besides calling someone a racist is an old lawyers tactic: If you can't attack the facts attack the person. ( Ok now you are not living in reality.....you have not presented us with any facts, just your wild opinions about drop thumb...which was proven to be completely false amongst other things, and in the meantime you continued lecturing us with all kinds of nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic....and might I add you continue to do so..



In fact, if you step back and reflect, you may realize that this has been one of the most entertaining, and perhaps informative threads on banjo hangout in a long time. ( Well of course!! in fact, thats because in your world, only what you have to say and what you have to add, regardless if its fact or fiction, truth or opinion, rediculous or informative is what really makes things interesting right? You have just been quietly entertaining yourself the whole time, or might I add noisily at the expense of this thread. I mean after all isnt this what your responses are all about?



Now, I realize that some folks are enjoying this thread and some folks are getting their panties in a bunch. But that's life. ( Exactly the answer I would expect...my 12 year old nephew would say the same thing under the same circumstances.



The fact is RT is that you havent added much yet except trying to pass your personal misinformed opinions off on everyone else as fact along with other nonsense that has nothing to do with the thread...and you havent really been that entertaining...dont kid yourself.

Edited by - erikforgod on 05/06/2012 10:27:51

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/06/2012:  10:41:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

 

Mr.erikforgod

No one has called me out nor corrected me. The african instrument presented has two drone string and one melody string. As such there is no drop thumb, only alternating drone strings.

 

---

 Whether or not the instrument has 2 drone strings or not is irrelevant.  What is relevant is the fact that the player is "dropping" his thumb to an inside string.  That's what makes it drop-thumb. 

erikforgod - Posted - 05/06/2012:  10:44:24

Mr.erikforgod



No one has called me out nor corrected me. The african instrument presented has two drone string and one melody string. As such there is no drop thumb, only alternating drone strings. ( What!?....you have been corrected again and again and again and again...by various contributors to the thread....I arrest my case..

Mr JT...you see ....you would have "noticed" this had you taken the time to review the youtube video links posed by two other members here of the African Akonting in response to your claims initially instead of waiting until the last minute. But you were to busy entertaining yourself focusing on your own comments and what you had to say and reveling in the fact that this thread is just so entertaining for yourself and everyone based upon only your responses and what you have to say only...borderline narcism

This is why once again R.D. has to step in and correct your misinformation.

Edited by - erikforgod on 05/06/2012 10:51:05

Paul S - Posted - 05/06/2012:  10:54:07

Hi everyone, I vote we all go play our banjos, no matter how many strings it might have or what technigue we might use, Wa Hoo!! Lets have some fun.

Paul

erikforgod - Posted - 05/06/2012:  10:55:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul S

Hi everyone, I vote we all go play our banjos, no matter how many strings it might have or what technigue we might use, Wa Hoo!! Lets have some fun.



Paul

---

Good advice Paul..I think the points have been made over and over again and facts defined and clarified...I am just going to be repeating myself from here on out if I continue..

Actually in reviewing this video again that Mark posted:

youtube.com/watch?v=b1zC4SSbdm...e=related

Not only is he drop-thumbing but he also has incorporated a flicking motion with the middle finger as he picks the melody notes. I would assume due to a small center of gravity because there is only a few strings. This makes me strongly consider purchasing a gourd banjo!

Edited by - erikforgod on 05/06/2012 11:01:56

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/06/2012:  11:00:32

Maybe we can get back to the discussion. I'll make what perhaps is going to be a provocative statement:

Though it is certainly a rhythmic element, it is possible to play rhythmically without the fifth string because rhythm comes from the way you accent your music, and where those accents fall. Hence, drop-thumbing does not automatically detract from "the rhythm" when one substitutes a DT'd note for a fifth-string stroke.

Agree? Disagree?

minstrelmike - Posted - 05/06/2012:  11:00:37

Well this topic has certainly droned on.

erikforgod - Posted - 05/06/2012:  11:08:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

Maybe we can get back to the discussion. I'll make what perhaps is going to be a provocative statement:



Though it is certainly a rhythmic element, it is possible to play rhythmically without the fifth string because rhythm comes from the way you accent your music, and where those accents fall. Hence, drop-thumbing does not automatically detract from "the rhythm" when one substitutes a DT'd note for a fifth-string stroke.



Agree? Disagree?

Accents or in other words "dynamics" when one can hit those inside strings with the thumb in a more controlled manner. I suppose one could frail on a tenor banjo...as well as a 5th string banjo. Once could tune the bottom string like a drone string of some kind and still get the same effect. Accenting drop thumb technique....maybe I will get there some day with practice. Its about a lighter touch or a stronger touch right?

cockneybanjo - Posted - 05/06/2012:  11:17:23

If I wanted to read pages of trolls shouting down everyone with cries of "you are a racist" I would read The Independent or The Guardian....

minstrelmike - Posted - 05/06/2012:  11:18:29

I frail uke.

The standard uke has a high string on top similar to banjo.

The baritone uke/tenor guitar does not but I use the lower string in the same way.

And because I can easily fret that 4th string, it ain't always the same drone but it always matches the current chord ;-)

I'm with R.D. If I can double thumb shukka-shukka without losing rhythm, then it seems that dropping one of those thumbs to some other string doesn't necessarily lose rhythm. imo, if it does, it is the player's problem, probably mental but easily fixed physically.

But only fixable if the player works at the right thing. It is similar to the bg folks who think their righthand roll is the problem even tho they can roll endlessly with the right hand while leaving the lefthand in a pocket or using it to scratch their nose or their crotch but as soon as the lefthand approaches the fingerboard, suddenly the righthand roll is the problem ;-)

imo, if you're losing rhythm when switching strings, work solely on that and nothing else.

Shouldn't take too long to fix.

But if you're trying to only do a single drop or double-thumb within the context of some complicated-to-you arrangement, don't be surprised if the problem is now suddenly much harder to fix.

Basic boom-shukka frail: brush-pause-Index-thumb

Basic double thumb shukka-shukka: I-T I-T  [strings 1-5 1-5]

Basic drop thumb with shukka: I-T I-T  [strings 1-2 1-5] or   [strings 1-3 1-5]

I don't see much difference.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/06/2012:  11:19:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

Mr Lunceford:



We need a new label for what this African gentleman is doing. He is "double droning". No melody note is involved.



 

---

 Maybe HE already has a label for his technique.  Regardless of what you call it, it is still executed like what we call a drop-thumb.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/06/2012:  11:26:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

Mr Woodchuck:



You seem determined to name call "making a complete idiot out of yourself". Why don't you try a more civil approach. Assume a virtue even if you have it not.



Mr. Capt banjo:



Life proves this statement to be correct: "for the most part white folks can't jump, play receiver in the NFL and don't have much rhythm". Not to many white guys jumping in the NBA these days are there?. Besides this was taken from the movie by the same name. As for receivers in the NFL, hard to name them, can you? As for not having much rhythm, go to a concert and watch them clap out of time. Now I have also added "don't have much of a sense of humor". Well this thread proves this to be true. If fact if I get together with some "bruthas" they like to do a little bar-b-q, have a few drinks, maybe a little doobie, and laugh a lot. When I get togethers with my white friends they like to get all serious and talk politics, religion, and argue.



Mr. Def Lester Crawdad:



What is a troll? I am using humor to display truth. Look at the thread I started called "Mississippi Diddy Bump."



Now are there any questions, or can we just have some fun here?

---

JTRoberts

Because you continue with racist remarks and attempting to cover your predjudice with the veil of humour, I continue to mention that you are acting like an idiot. There is also the matter of "outing" a BHO member who is in no need of outing. I hope that member has reported your activity to the mods. You are not a humourist. You are simply unable to argue with facts, and, like a kid throwing game pieces, a very bad loser.

hoverflytheo - Posted - 05/06/2012:  11:37:32

If drop thumb didn't come from African proto-banjo technique, are we to assume it came from Scottish and Irish fiddle players?

blockader - Posted - 05/06/2012:  11:38:26

JT. frankly, i don't think you are who you are representing yourself to be either. you speak in cliches and stereotypes. outmoded ones at that. nor do i have any idea whether you can even play banjo. i know you can run off at the mouth, talk smack, and act like an arse. i know many of the folks on here can wear out a banjo. i know i can wear out a banjo. how bout posting a video of yourself demonstrating some mfing duende on a banjo. lets hear and see it. or are you all talk (type)?

i try to avoid this kind of crap on here. i was raised to listen more than speak and to be accepting of people. but i was also taught not to stand aside when something wrong is happening. and this is wrong. its not the atmosphere that the BHO is supposed to allow. moderators usually intervene with people who spout racist vitriol. not sure why that hasn't occurred with you.

you remind me of someone who pops up here on occasion for just these sort oh shenanigans.

-justin

erikforgod - Posted - 05/06/2012:  12:24:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by blockader

JT. frankly, i don't think you are who you are representing yourself to be either. you speak in cliches and stereotypes. outmoded ones at that. nor do i have any idea whether you can even play banjo. i know you can run off at the mouth, talk smack, and act like an arse. i know many of the folks on here can wear out a banjo. i know i can wear out a banjo. how bout posting a video of yourself demonstrating some mfing duende on a banjo. lets hear and see it. or are you all talk (type)?

i try to avoid this kind of crap on here. i was raised to listen more than speak and to be accepting of people. but i was also taught not to stand aside when something wrong is happening. and this is wrong. its not the atmosphere that the BHO is supposed to allow. moderators usually intervene with people who spout racist vitriol. not sure why that hasn't occurred with you.

you remind me of someone who pops up here on occasion for just these sort oh shenanigans.

-justin

---

Well spoken Justin ...

chip arnold - Posted - 05/06/2012:  13:18:46

Not that it matters but I don't believe for a nanosecond that this guy was kidding to begin with. He was busted so completely that he either had to own the truth or find himself a hole in the fence to crawl through. He picked finding a hole and pretended he was just bringing a little joy to the lives of BHO members. Right ... and bears don't s**t in the woods.

on the subject ... drop thumb means exactly that. dropping the thumb to an inside string. it can be done for rhythmic purposes, melodic purposes, drone purposes. whether or not the thumbed string is producing a note which is a part of the melody has nothing whatsoever to do with the name used to denote the technique. as for drone ... i've heard numerous finger and clawhammer players using drop thumb to maintain a drone on an inside string. this is particularly fun and effective when the 4th string is tuned to the key note as in C/C, D/D, open D etc.

for thumb lead 2-finger players, the same question comes up. many T lead pickers use the index on the 1st string only, maintaining drones on the 5th and 1st strings. others employ what can be called "drop finger" and play notes on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings with the index as well as with the thumb.

with finger lead (as in clawhammer and index lead 2-finger) and thumb lead 2-finger, the melodic possibilities are enhanced when the thumb and finger can play any string the picker chooses.

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 05/06/2012:  15:07:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts



1.)   What is a troll?

2.)   I am using humor to display truth. 

---

 1.)  There are two answers to the "what is a troll" question:

The first answer is "you".   And for the second one, see  politicsforum.org/images/flame...me_28.php     

2.)   Nobody in their right mind laughs at racial slurs, and you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the fanny.

brudford - Posted - 05/06/2012:  17:19:30

I do not know if Mr. Roberts is a racist or not  and I really do not care that is his business . I'am really amazed that some of you can deduct from his post concerning Dwight Diller and rhythm being of African origins is a slight on African Americans . Let us not forget that alot of oldtime music is dance music . Most dance music does have a strong rhythm . If this rhythm is a product of black culture and their music so-be-it ." It is what it is " . If our oldtime music was brought to this country from the British Isles and had melted with African music which may have had more of a sense of rhythm which made the old world European music even better for dancing then great ! Pointing out that music with a more rhythmic sense came from African orgins does not make one a racist . If drop thumbing was a learned style from early African American styles then I think it made our British Isle music even better . I think African Americans and their music does have more rhythm , soul than traditional so-called white music . We would not have Jazz , Gospel , Rock-n-Roll , Blues and various forms of other progressive music styles without this black influence . If we had only been limited to so-called white music, all our music, oldtime included would be alot less inspiring .

Edited by - brudford on 05/06/2012 17:30:46

Matt Buckley - Posted - 05/06/2012:  18:09:17

In one of his early posts, Tony (Old Woodchuck) mentioned piobaireachd. (roughly pronounced "pee-brock" or "pibroch").  Tony's spelling was a bit off, but the idea is spot on.   I play the Highland pipes, and have played a piobaireachd or two in my day.  The form consists of a urlar, or "ground", akin to a slow air, with increasingly complex variations on the ground.  Just to be clear, I claim no expertise.  It's demanding, hard stuff.  A short piobaireachd might be 4-5 minutes, and a long one can be well over 30 minutes.  Piobaireachd is, if anything, all about expression.  In other words, "playing the spaces". The gentleman who made the unfortunate remark about Western music not being about playing the spaces has obviously never heard a piobaireachd.  Piobaireachd is, truly, the traditional classical music of the Highlands.  Listen to it in the hands of an expert, and it'll pierce your heart. 

Another poster mentioned African rhythms improving upon the traditional music of Scotland and Ireland.  Perhaps, but I doubt it.  Scottish and Irish traditional music has been all about dance, i.e. drive, swing, rhythm, for hundreds of years.   

Edited by - Matt Buckley on 05/06/2012 18:14:23

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/06/2012:  18:11:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by brudford

If our oldtime music was brought to this country from the British Isles and had melted with African music which may have had more of a sense of rhythm which made the old world European music even better for dancing then great ! Pointing out that music with a more rhythmic sense came from African orgins does not make one a racist . If drop thumbing was a learned style from early African American styles then I think it made our British Isle music even better . I think African Americans and their music does have more rhythm , soul than traditional so-called white music . We would not have Jazz , Gospel , Rock-n-Roll , Blues and various forms of other progressive music styles without this black influence . If we had only been limited to so-called white music, all our music, oldtime included would be alot less inspiring .

---

You'd be hard-pressed to find a more rhythmically advanced intricate form than Irish step-dancing. The fiddling that it is danced to is equally rhythmic and highly melodically evolved.  Probably moreso than anything on this side of the Atlantic.  Nothing that happened over here did anything to improve that music or dancing.  In fact, one could argue it took a step backwards once it went from a settled country to the frontier.

The banjo and American popular music is the spot where European and African musical traditions met and produced a great result.  We always hear about the African rhythmic contribution, but do you think for a moment that you could take away the European element and still have anything?

"Mr. Roberts" kept harping on white folks having no rhythm.  Really?   What group of people have largely preserved the banjo and its music for the last 125 years?  The banjo is the synthesis of two traditions, not one. American fiddling by the way is a largely transplanted British Isles tradition.

The African/African-American contribution is indispensible, but let's not pretend it was the only one in any style of American music.   

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 05/06/2012 18:14:33

captbanjo - Posted - 05/06/2012:  18:14:34

I think you may be confused. I never thought he was slighting African Amercians, it was clear to me from his comments about whites being unable to jump, having no rhythm (laughable....that), etc. that the slight was directed against the race HE pointed out. Racism exist in every facet of our world and all cultures.

No room in my world for these kinds of rants. Read how he accused the 'whites' (his wording, not mine) or 'ripping off' others. Puhleeeze! There isn't a musician worth his/her salt who hasn't 'ripped off' other artists, REGARDLESS OF RACE OR ETHNICITY. To paraphrase someone (who probably ripped it off of someone else) "Mediocre artists borrow. Great artists steal".

You're welcome to your opinion, but I recognize a Troll when I see one.

Wayne

quote:

---

Originally posted by brudford

I do not know if Mr. Roberts is a racist or not  and I really do not care that is his business . I'am really amazed that some of you can deduct from his post concerning Dwight Diller and rhythm being of African origins is a slight on African Americans . Let us not forget that alot of oldtime music is dance music . Most dance music does have a strong rhythm . If this rhythm is a product of black culture and their music so-be-it ." It is what it is " . If our oldtime music was brought to this country from the British Isles and had melted with African music which may have had more of a sense of rhythm which made the old world European music even better for dancing then great ! Pointing out that music with a more rhythmic sense came from African orgins does not make one a racist . If drop thumbing was a learned style from early African American styles then I think it made our British Isle music even better . I think African Americans and their music does have more rhythm , soul than traditional so-called white music . We would not have Jazz , Gospel , Rock-n-Roll , Blues and various forms of other progressive music styles without this black influence . If we had only been limited to so-called white music, all our music, oldtime included would be alot less inspiring .

---

captbanjo - Posted - 05/06/2012:  18:18:06

Well....looks we all hit the 'send' button at the same time in our desire to explain what was earlier posted.

Wayne

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 05/06/2012:  18:40:32

This has ceased to be a discussion of drop thumbing and has turned into a free for all. Friends, can we please stop this?

squirrel - Posted - 05/06/2012:  18:46:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

However-----I am ALSO convinced that some who do, should not! The lack of rhythm and drive is very evident in some players, and they don't seem to grasp that anything is missing. Their playing is usually clean and precise, and has all the right techniques. But, does it make you want to dance?

---

well said my friend, VERY well said!, to me, the banjo is a tool to express the soul of a song, and there is NO right or wrong way to do it, as long as it sounds meaningfull! i have found the few folks that talk of the "proper" way to play, really dont understand the banjo as a whole and limit the potential of it, the songs they play, and theyre growth as a banjo player. im always picking up new licks and they all have theyre place, in my own style. let me see somone play a waltz with a roundpeak lick, lol! 

chip arnold - Posted - 05/06/2012:  18:49:14

Actually, that would be GOOBER Pyle.

usatoday.com/life/people/obit/...4787304/1

Mr Lindsey was a man who actually did make people smile. 

Edited by - chip arnold on 05/06/2012 18:50:59

brudford - Posted - 05/06/2012:  19:34:52

brudford - Posted - 05/06/2012:  19:50:56

R.D. , yes I agree Irish step dancing is rhythmically advanced . However, I view this type of rhythm as rhythmic gymnastics and rhythmic cadence only . When I speak of black influences in regard to oldtime music it is hard to put into words how these influences may have improved oldtime music . As best as I can explain , an expression of a deep feeling of emotion, like when Jimi Hendrix bends that one note up to the heavens and it becomes the perfect emotional musical sound . I just do not believe that the music that came with our ancestors from the British Isles conveyed that emotion. Only after African rhythmic influences do I believe the oldtime music was at it's best and became American popular oldtime dance music . Left in the hands of purley white Western Europeans the music would not sound like it does in it's present form . I would agree to state, " that white folks do not have rhythm, " is a stupid generalized statement by anyone . I would end by just saying that maybe African rhythms and white European rhythms are different , not one being better than the latter but a compliment to each other .

Edited by - brudford on 05/06/2012 20:00:32

banjo bill-e - Posted - 05/06/2012:  19:53:11

Actually, squirrel, I regret posting that. I read it as harsh and critical, when it is my desire to be encouraging and helpful. Apologies if I added in any way to the baffling negativity this thread seems to have produced. Music is wonderful, banjos are cool, life is good. Let's move on.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/06/2012:  20:41:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by brudford

Only after African rhythmic influences do I believe the oldtime music was at it's best and became American popular oldtime dance music . Left in the hands of purley white Western Europeans the music would not sound like it does in it's present form. 

---

 To me part of the problem is that the "revival" of old-time music has created its own set of myths, and these often take the form of generalizations that treat the tradition as a monolithic entity.  We're talking here about a music whose history is often not that well documented as if we know exactly what happened to make it what it is.  Hence it all gets painted with a broad brush as represented by theories that old-time music owes it's rhythmic aspect exclusively to African musical influence.

If we take the fiddle as an example, we really don't know what the playing styles 200 years ago sounded like.  We compare Old-time fiddling to modern day British Isles fiddling styles and just assume that the differences are attributable to the "black influence" rather than the possibility that the Old-Time fiddling we are hearing may be close to the original European forms that immigrated here 200+ years ago.  

There were large areas of the Appalachians, Ozarks, etc. where there were virtually no Black people (hence little or no black influence), yet some of these same areas are known as the ground sources for our modern old-time musical traditions.  

The proto-type African/African-American gourd banjo and the "clawhammer" picking method are of obvious African origin.  Beyond that, it is an open question of how much actual African influence there is in old-time music.  I'd guess that the fiddle style and repertoire would exhibit less African influence than the banjo, but once whites took up the banjo, it became to a large degree "Europeanized" in both form and music.

The minstrel performers and authors of the old banjo tutors (Briggs. Rice, Joel Sweeney, Dan Emmett, etc.) tended to claim direct contact/influence of black banjo-players on their music, but it seems to be more an attempt at establishing credibility.  An awful lot of the material in the early banjo literature seems much more European than African to me.

The other thing to remember is that Black musicians since coming to this country have been influenced by European music.  They often were occupied playing for white dances and would have necessarily learned and played some of the dance tune forms popular among the whites.  Because of this, although players like Joe Sweeney claimed to be learning authentic black banjo-playing, even at that early point, it was already a synthesis.    

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 05/06/2012 20:47:45

minstrelmike - Posted - 05/06/2012:  20:53:37

R.D. explains how it was already a synthesis of rhythms by 1843 when the slave banjo was modified was modified with a bass string to become more guitar-like. The currently existing banjo-fiddle duet wasn't strictly African since the fiddle was European.

And the synthesis continued later in the 1880s with the creation of ragtime on the piano which was said to put African rhythms onto a European instrument. And Blues was another synthesis of African rhythms.

It ain't like we combined the musics once and now we're done with it.

Carlos Benavides - Posted - 05/06/2012:  21:02:21

Regarding the origins of traditional music, in the context of the issues brought up in this discussion, I am going to make a big guess here. There's no way I could ever offer any real proof here, so this is just my gut feeling based on what I know about European music history and stringed instruments styles from other cultures (India, for example).

I'm guessing that one of the most far reaching influences of the European renaissance to modern day music has been one of meter. The precisely measured 'measures' and note values all neatly fitting in within tunes like a perfect jigsaw puzzle is something, I think, that came from these European traditions. At the height of the European music renaissance (Bach, Hyden, Mozart) we had very mannered and rigid forms clearly established. As a matter of timing, time was precise in a neurotic way. We have adopted these values today in all our music, traditional included.

I would further guess that the fiddle music of 200+ years ago was probably much looser, timing wise, and not so exactly fitting of neat measures. But rather, I'm guessing the musicians followed a more spontaneous flow of what was being sung, or danced, or just felt by the way of the current mood. I'm also guessing here that the traditional music of Africa was also less dependent on rigid meter forms.

It would be interesting to me to hear musicians depart from the standard 16-measure tunes, for example, and play a more spontaneous 'stream of consciousness' style (awkward term, sorry!) and still maintain the open possibility for dancing and singing. Like in some very traditional flamenco!!! With duende.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/06/2012:  21:35:22

200 years ago (and earlier) the traditional dance forms in the British Isles
were well established...jigs, reels, hornpipes, etc. ... with regular numbers of
measures and time signatures that defined the tune type.

There were "free forms"; slow airs, songs in the sean nos tradition, etc. that were
very loosely interpreted with regard to metre so much so that to this day some of them
are notated with no bar lines or time signature, but they were strictly listening pieces.
I think that most dancing requires a regular pulse and has exhibited rhythmic regularity
for centuries if not millenia... at least in many European traditions, and hence in Old-Time
music.

Matt Buckley - Posted - 05/07/2012:  04:39:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by brudford

R.D. , yes I agree Irish step dancing is rhythmically advanced. However, I view this type of rhythm as rhythmic gymnastics and rhythmic cadence only .

---

Be careful not to equate modern Riverdance-era step dancing with much older, and more traditional, step dancing traditions.  Silly green costumes, wigs, etc. etc. have little to do with close-to-the-floor step-dancing of earlier eras.  Also, check out Cape Breton step dancing, or step dancing of Gaelic Scotland, i.e. the Western Highlands and Western Isles (NOT Scottish Country Dancing or formal "Highland" dancing, which forms are closer cousins to English court dancing and ballet respectively than anything truly Scottish), as it's all about drive and swing.   No "gymnastics" going on, unless you feel that Southern Mtn. clogging is simply gymnastics and cadences as well.  

Cheers.

Matt

Edited by - Matt Buckley on 05/07/2012 04:44:45

captbanjo - Posted - 05/07/2012:  04:58:15

I agree that we need to ignore any trolling. As one who has posted his opinion on that whole thing very clearly (I hope), I promise to ignore ALL of the digs and attacks that may (hopefully won't) come from anyone with a private agenda. I will not post any responses to those attempts to steer the subject away from what we should be discussing.

In other words, I'm with all of you who want to discuss music and the banjo.

Wayne

erikforgod - Posted - 05/07/2012:  05:57:02

I took aversion with Mr Roberts in his attempts to presumably talk down to the rest of us and try and teach us and tell us that drop-thumb was somehow not of african origin but a white european/american thing. I felt immediately in my gut that this was not correct, and asked others to clarify this for the sake of the thread and the discussion. He was immediately corrected as not being factual..period. Whether someone would say that it was somewhat racist or had a racial component....obviously in the context of the manner of his comments and the way that they were written and "presented"...I would definately say so. Dont defend him/her. I chose not to play that aspect of it...thats where he was baiting so to speak. He knew it would stir up a pot and thats exactly why he did it. He enjoyed the fact that he was so entertaining to himself...because you know thats what just brought so much "joy" to the thread remember...he is the quintessential definition of a narcissist. He doesnt continue returning to the thread for the discussion, he is just basking in all the attention he receives from the rest of us. Maybe if we all took an oath to just ignore him from now on and just return to the evolution of the thread...which has now become a discussion about african american and also Irish and other european music contributions...which I am finding interesting....sanity will prevail LOL

Edited by - erikforgod on 05/07/2012 05:59:40

steve j. - Posted - 05/07/2012:  07:01:29

Senor Roberts, I think you should amble over to minsterel banjo,, see Tim Twiss first videos ,,, where he shows you how to play Juba, you will accidently learn drop thumb, then you will be able to do it,,,, and wont have to hate it, or defend you not doing it.
learn Juba , then you will be otay

brudford - Posted - 05/07/2012:  07:53:18

Matt, I was not clear in my earlier post , I guess I was comparing to the Riverdance we have all watched on PBS . From the orignal post about drop thumb and the statement that it was a white American invention is highly unlikely . Regarding influences in American Southern Moutain clogging are numerous . Native Americans ( Cherokee ) , African Americans and Gypsies all added to the evolution of clogging . The clog dance of the Appaliachian peoples was a melting pot of different step dances . The African introduced more syncopation and body movement to the British Isle dances . There is no orignal American art form other than Jazz . R.D.. mentioned in an earlier post that white America has been the keeper of the banjo for over 125 years, sad but true . After slavery had ended blacks gave up the banjo because it was and reminded them of oppression by where they were forced by their  masters to play white music . American blacks took-up the guitar as it was a new instrument and had no conection to their slave roots . From the orignal posters question , " Is it true that some players do not drop thumb at all ? " . I would think that Africans were drop thumbing 500-600 years ago in their native lands , and like we modern players there were even people back then that could not get the technique perfected .

Edited by - brudford on 05/07/2012 08:02:30

erikforgod - Posted - 05/07/2012:  08:18:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by brudford

Matt, I was not clear in my earlier post , I guess I was comparing to the Riverdance we have all watched on PBS . From the orignal post about drop thumb and the statement that it was a white American invention is highly unlikely . Regarding influences in American Southern Moutain clogging are numerous . Native Americans ( Cherokee ) , African Americans and Gypsies all added to the evolution of clogging . The clog dance of the Appaliachian peoples was a melting pot of different step dances . The African introduced more syncopation and body movement to the British Isle dances . There is no orignal American art form other than Jazz . R.D.. mentioned in an earlier post that white America has been the keeper of the banjo for over 125 years, sad but true . After slavery had ended blacks gave up the banjo because it was and reminded them of oppression by where they were forced by their  masters to play white music . American blacks took-up the guitar as it was a new instrument and had no conection to their slave roots . From the orignal posters question , " Is it true that some players do not drop thumb at all ? " . I would think that Africans were drop thumbing 500-600 years ago in their native lands , and like we modern players there were even people back then that could not get the technique perfected .

---

Interesting had not heard this point being made before. I ...I guess I like many assumed it came from the celtic peoples of the British Isles. Where did you hear this? I agree about drop thumbing---500 - 600 years ago...heck probably even further back than that...we can only assume as much right?

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/07/2012:  08:52:54

Senor steve J:

Juba is being played with a drop thumb, and that is to be expected. Most clawhammer style banjo players play with a drop thumb. We have no idea how Juba was originally played. Nice try though.

blockader - Posted - 05/07/2012:  09:11:18

JT, why don't you record something and post it here? do you even play the banjo or would music impinge on your trolling?

brudford - Posted - 05/07/2012:  09:15:31

brudford - Posted - 05/07/2012:  09:23:52

appalachianhistory.net/2012/04...cing.html



Erikforgod , Here is some interesting reading at the link above on the history of clogging in America . My paternal Grandfather was born in 1898 in Fayette county Pa. Which is at the base of the Appaliachian moutains . His family were farmers and coal miners . He used to sing the old songs and play harmonica .He would put a glass cup over his harmonica to get a certain echo or muffled sound . He also did some clogging and in the early 1970's I remember him telling us he learned some of his dance moves from an ederly black man he worked with while they were on their breaks .

Edited by - brudford on 05/07/2012 09:28:56

Matt Buckley - Posted - 05/07/2012:  09:38:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by brudford

The African introduced more syncopation and body movement to the British Isle dances . 

---

With respect, I think if you were to spend some time around serious trad. Cape Breton musicians (as just one example of trad. music of "celtic" origin), I don't think you'd make such a generalization.   And what about "waulking" songs and tunes?  Backbeat and body movement all over the place there.

I understand your argument.  But "British Isles" music (the term itself is in many ways unhelpful) comes in many forms.  The Africans did not invent syncopation and body movement as is now found in Irish, Scottish and Cape Breton music.

Here's a link to a waulking song.  Plenty of movement there.  No syncopation in this particular clip, so I'll find and post another for that purpose.  

youtube.com/watch?v=fFoO6A7oRH0 

Cheers 

Matt

Edited by - Matt Buckley on 05/07/2012 09:45:15

mojo_monk - Posted - 05/07/2012:  09:39:03

I think RD makes an interesting point regarding the "myths" that rest at the center of how we understand and talk about traditional/Old-Time music.

As someone from the Midwest, I have found myself in more than a few 'discussions' about the degree of old-timeyness of traditional fiddle tunes from Illinois and Missouri (and Nebraska & Wisconsin). As has been stated previously in this thread (somewhere) a great deal of what can be heard in the repertory of Midwestern fiddlers is relatively close melodically to what would've been heard in the "Old Country". Schottisches, quadrilles, waltzes, and jigs were just as - if not more - prominent than reels in parts of the US for hundreds of years. This remained to be the case up until a couple generations ago. Banjos were a rarity, and if you did find one it was typically played in a style other than what we call clawhammer. Even still, as the tunes penetrated the "frontier" from countries like Germany, England, France, Ireland, Norway, etc. they passed through thousands of miles of richly diverse cultural geography - a great deal of which was simply not Appalachian. That said, the tunes began to develop into something wholeheartedly North American - but still different than what was to be found in the southern mountains. Point in case: the Illinois/Missouri fiddle traditions of old French settlements like Prairie du Rocher and Old Mines - aka "upper Louisiana" (check fiddlers Joe Pollitte & Charlie Pashia, in particular). This stuff is not simply European - but something born of explosive moments of contact and open exchange between many cultures. To me this is the heart and underlying story of N. American music in general, and Old Time music in particular. It is so much more than the microcosm of Appalachian music/culture, just as Old Time Banjo is so much more than the African connection to the banjo. Don't believe the hype!

Now back to the drop-thumb issue: the assumption that drop-thumb is a technique that should be "perfected" is a myth.

It is, in its most basic sense, a non-musical technique. A motion one introduces into his/her playing for melodic or rhythmic effect. Nothing more, nothing less. It is unessential to Old Time banjo and its usage is purely a matter of preference. To assert otherwise is to believe that the drop-thumb technique is somehow indispensable and/or synonymous with the definition of Old Time Banjo. Too many old recordings point to the contrary.

Clawhammer/frailing/framming/whapping/whatever, can and should be played how you want it to be played. Some people learn drop thumb, others don't. Some know how, but use it only sparingly (this is where I fit in). I think the "big lie" in the world of Old Time banjo is that in order to arrive as a player you have to live up to someone else's expectations. What a joke! An even bigger misconception, which seems to be departing tail-between-legs, is that clawhammer banjo is your only option...

That's enough outta me.

-Sean

Edited by - mojo_monk on 05/07/2012 09:42:12

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/07/2012:  10:08:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by brudford



 After slavery had ended blacks gave up the banjo because it was and reminded them of oppression by where they were forced by their  masters to play white music . 

---

 There are probably as many reasons for giving up the instrument as there were players.  Most musicians are a fairly color-blind group as pertains to music itself.  In fact, music is one of the few places us humans seem willing to set differences aside and just enjoy the music and eachother...and learn from one another.  I don't know that black banjo players resented "white" music in and of itself, though I'm sure any person resents being forced to do anything.  Perhaps If I had been a slave, I would have counted myself fortunate to be employed in any kind of music making rather than working in the fields, etc.  A similarity would be the Jewish musicians that were exempt from slave labor and the gas chamber because they were members of concentration camp orchestras.

I think the main reason black folks dropped the banjo had less to do with the music it played than that they were trying to escape the stereotype created by the minstrel theatre, and which had the banjo as its main prop.  The truth is, that due to changes in popular music, eventually, everybody dropped the banjo.  We kind of live in our own little world on BHO, but in the larger picture, the banjo is fairly absent.

brudford - Posted - 05/07/2012:  10:15:29

We are hundreds of years removed from any Celtic or British isle music or dance .Many of the Old world melodies and words to songs have all been Americanized or changed . The whole discussion is really a moot point . I speak of influences only, how important or slight they may be I do not know because none of us were there . We only can read and research what the historians have left us . I can go to my Paternal Grandfather as a closer source only . He was Dutch and Irish . His father was born in 1862 and spoke dutch and also had an Irish accent . My Grandfather was influenced by a form of African American clog dance . For some reason many have this notion that American art forms belong soley to us , that we invented it . Case in point white America invented drop thumb ? American music and dance is a big melting pot . What current Celtic muscians are playing or current Irish dancers are doing has very little to do with current American art forms . At best in the far distant past there may have been an influence . If a modern day banjo clawhammer player and a Clog dancer were transported in a time machine to say , the 1600's or the early 1700's in old Europe when you started to play or dance they would look at you like you were from Mars . Chances are, you might not be even able to converse with them because of the accents . You might not even reconize alot of the English words . The modern day clog dance and old time music may not be as closely related to the old world music as you think .

Edited by - brudford on 05/07/2012 10:24:17

Carlos Benavides - Posted - 05/07/2012:  10:20:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

quote:

---

I think the main reason black folks dropped the banjo had less to do with the music it played than that they were trying to escape the stereotype created by the minstrel theatre, [ . . .]

---

Yes, minstrel theatre created by white upper-middle class people. And by extension, I think this is the same dynamic that has given us the stereotypes of black people as "good athletes", "good rhythmic dancers", "people with real soul", etc., some of which have been mentioned here on this thread, and all of which are designed to imply that black people are at root "primitive". The biggest tragedy is when ethnic minorities parrot back and believe in the same BS that was forced upon them by the ruling classes as a way of keeping them powerless. Don't believe the hype.

Edited by - Carlos Benavides on 05/07/2012 10:23:09

steve j. - Posted - 05/07/2012:  11:49:56

this fellow is just having his jollies trying to stir folk up, goodby roberts................