Banjophobic - Posted - 11/08/2010:  14:44:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by mikey5string

[quote]not even the best scruggs player, oddly enough.

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Not the 'best Scruggs player".. What? No one can top Earl at playing "Scruggs". There are players who can play much more technically complicated things on banjo, as in Fleck. But that in no way 'trumps' Earl, in his prime, playing his own style. Im going to have to give a big thumbs down to that one Mikey,sorry.

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/08/2010:  14:49:20

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Finally, mikey5string has got down to the nitty-gritty. He has come up with the right answer.

That ought to shut stringbreaker down for good on this Earl-bashing. Whatever stringbreaker has come up with, banjomikey's post shows us that it is irrelevant (even if it might be true). Maybe Earl has bad breath, maybe he drives an SUV, maybe he's a hillbilly, maybe he's an angel--none of it matters. Earl is a world-class artist. There is nothing anybody can say that will change that. It's just history.

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Edited by - Richard Dress on 11/10/2010 09:02:34

mikey5string - Posted - 11/08/2010:  15:12:59

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quote:

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Originally posted by Banjophobic

quote:

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Originally posted by mikey5string

[quote]not even the best scruggs player, oddly enough.

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Not the 'best Scruggs player".. What? No one can top Earl at playing "Scruggs". There are players who can play much more technically complicated things on banjo, as in Fleck. But that in no way 'trumps' Earl, in his prime, playing his own style. Im going to have to give a big thumbs down to that one Mikey,sorry.

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you know, ive thought about this and the nature of the comment about someone being a better "scruggs" player than scruggs himself. i asked myself how someone could be better at a style than the person it was named for...


i guess i mean, i prefer JD Crowes "scruggs style" playing to Scruggs' "scruggs style" playing. :)


i am by no means saying that i dont like earls playing, hes one of my favorites.


I like to define how i play (or try to play) as "3 finger playing" which to me is a mix of melodic, scruggs, single string, travis picking etc. the unifying aspect is the use of 3 fingerpicks and planting at least one finger on the head. i think that the convergence of the three prevalent styles (Scruggs melodic and single string) has come together over the years and now and been mastered by players like bela, vestal, noam etc. so much so that it can actually be thought of as a new style in itself. thats has nothing to do with this thread, i just thought id share my views on it.

part of the problem with the fighting over whos better and this and that is because people arent recognizing that more contemporary banjoists are playing a new style. sure its rooted in scruggs much like scruggs style was rooted in old time finger picking (snuffy, doc etc) but it has finally reached a point where it is no longer a mixing of different techniques and styles but a style all its own.

like the scruggs was the flour, the melodic the eggs and the single string the milk for a while but now its been made into biscuits!!....and you cant pull the eggs or milk back out. its something new now, not just the sum of its parts.

so its not right to compare earl to bela or JD crowe to scott vestal. they are playing different styles.

not that you could even begin to compare something so subjective. the whole whos better thing is so futile. you see it from both sides though. its ok to not like earl, its ok to not like bela or whatever. and while i think everyone is entitled to their opinions, i do think that stringbreakers posts are intentionally meant to instigate. what is posting things like "earl plays the same licks" supposed to accomplish?

i mean whats better a hot dog or a hamburger????

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Edited by - mikey5string on 11/08/2010 15:18:34

ambpicker - Posted - 11/08/2010:  15:37:45

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I don't agree with you on every point Mikey. Still, you make some profound observations.
To me, Earl is just the best there's ever been at playing a song on a banjo.
His style is not as complex as some other individuals.
But, just speaking for myself, no banjo player that I have ever heard, can make a banjo sound as good as Earl.
I've heard these sentiments expressed by a great number of individuals, both in person, on this forum and in the Banjo Newsletter, etc.

I think some folks just seem to get a weird thrill up their leg out of being a s'ahem stirrer.

gDGBD - Posted - 11/08/2010:  15:41:08

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quote:

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Originally posted by Klondike Waldo

quote:

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Originally posted by 1935tb-11

earl is to banjo what palmer is to golf,
or ruth is to baseball or,
unitas is to football or,
pele' is to soccer or
itzhak perlman is to violin.
he is the alpha dog to the way 99.99% of us veiw the banjo

PERIOD! ! ! ! ! ! !


terry m
n.c.

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I would say rather Paganini to violin. Itzhak Perlman is a great violinist indeed, but maybe not one of the great historical innovators.
(and that's not bashing Maestro Perlman)

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Robert Shelton, former music critic for the New York Times, said in a 1959 review of the Newport Folk Festival that Earl Scruggs "bears about the same relationship to the five-string banjo that Paganini does to the violin".

query.nytimes.com/mem/archive/...F4D8585F9

JamesTanglewylde - Posted - 11/08/2010:  15:41:24

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I think we could run in circles here for another 200 pages if we wanted. And even if Bela Fleck, Bill Keith, Tony Trischka, Alison Brown, Scott Vestal, Noam Pikelny and any of the other fantastic banjoists that have been inspired by Earls playing, chimed in here in Earls defense, this dink would still argue it. I really wish this thread would go away. Stringbreaker is obviously alone here. He is angry for reasons that most here will never understand. He's the guy who when you say "Wow! What a beautiful, sunny day it is" replies with, "what do you mean? It's nasty and gray out!" Its a boring argument now. Let's take the mic away from the troll and move on!

Best regards to all of the fine people here who know the difference between s#%t and shinola!

-Luke

mikey5string - Posted - 11/08/2010:  15:50:52

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quote:

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Originally posted by ambpicker

I don't agree with you on every point Mikey. Still, you make some profound observations.
To me, Earl is just the best there's ever been at playing a song on a banjo.
His style is not as complex as some other individuals.
But, just speaking for myself, no banjo player that I have ever heard, can make a banjo sound as good as Earl.
I've heard these sentiments expressed by a great number of individuals, both in person, on this forum and in the Banjo Newsletter, etc.

I think some folks just seem to get a weird thrill up their leg out of being a s'ahem stirrer.

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thanks,

i think that people sometimes dismiss "technical" or "fancy" players as lacking feeling or "soul". i always think that this is pretty funny because can you imagine what people thought of earls style when he came out on the scene!! it was very complex for the time. i think they even refereed it to earl and his "fancy" banjo!

and it doesnt matter if a miilion people think earl was the best it is still a matter of opinion, not a fact. there is no "facts" when it comes to someones favorite banjo player, or favorite anything for that matter!



i do agree with you though. earl was a pioneer and a great bluegrass banjo picker. he is an icon.

"earl is the best ever at playing a song on the banjo"
and
"no other banjo player can make a banjo sound as good as earl"

thats fine. youre welcome to your opinion and its not a bad one at that! BUT it works both ways. if you say something like this be prepared for someone to disagree and be ready for the debate that ensues.

i think everyone would be better off saying "so and so is my favorite banjo player" there. done. no hyperbole or implication of fact and most importantly NOT DEBATABLE!!

mikey5string - Posted - 11/08/2010:  15:55:53

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one more thing....

"Robert Shelton, former music critic for the New York Times, said in a 1959 review of the Newport Folk Festival that Earl Scruggs "bears about the same relationship to the five-string banjo that Paganini does to the violin"."

this really doesnt mean anything. and really all it does is give ammunition to the people who want to stir stuff up. if you want to use something to support an argument make it a fact, not another opinion! : )

i agree with what the writer is saying and his premise BUT this will inevitably lead to someone who doesnt get the comparison (its NOT in terms of technical virtuosity) using it to point out that Paganini could play circles around earl and blah blah blah.

gDGBD - Posted - 11/08/2010:  16:06:29

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The only reason I mentioned the Shelton article was in response to a poster's comparison of Earl to Paganini and to point out that Shelton said almost the same thing over 50 years ago. I wasn't necessarily endorsing the comparison.

Incidentally, Shelton's quote is on the back cover of the Foggy Mountain Banjo LP (for those who still have vinyl).

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 11/08/2010:  16:19:11

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Wouldn't it be ironic if Stringfaker had a $1,000 bet that he could run this thread to 20 pages?
Ken

mikey5string - Posted - 11/08/2010:  16:19:58

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or is stringbreaker was EARL SCRUGGS!!!!

ambpicker - Posted - 11/08/2010:  16:21:15

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I did make an effort to state that, to me, Earl is the best. It is totally subjective of course.
I'm not so grandiose as to think, THERE, I'VE SAID IT, so it is written, it is now done, now and forever.
It's just my own opinion, my own feelings, no better or no worse than anyone else's feelings.

stringbreaker - Posted - 11/08/2010:  17:23:28

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i was responding to the part comparing earl to paganini and saying noone is his equal. fred van eps? vess ossman? peabody. fleck. vestal. lots of stuff earl didnt do. stop making him out to be the be all of banjo playing.
if he is your favorite that is fine. but there are other pickers too

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Edited by - stringbreaker on 11/08/2010 17:26:25

JackJack - Posted - 11/08/2010:  17:26:29

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15 pages!

Maybe this thread should be moved to the games forum.

stringbreaker - Posted - 11/08/2010:  17:27:52

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saying crowds went crazy over earl means nothing. crowds go crazy over all sorts of music. rap, opera, anything that another person could detest.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/08/2010:  17:30:17

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Im going to ask a Mod to lock this so we dont have to read any more troll comments.

stringbreaker - Posted - 11/08/2010:  17:31:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by Banjophobic

quote:

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Originally posted by mikey5string

[quote]not even the best scruggs player, oddly enough.

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Not the 'best Scruggs player".. What? No one can top Earl at playing "Scruggs". There are players who can play much more technically complicated things on banjo, as in Fleck. But that in no way 'trumps' Earl, in his prime, playing his own style. Im going to have to give a big thumbs down to that one Mikey,sorry.

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noone can top reno at playing reno style or fleck in fleck style either. only problem is you play a forward roll and everyone says you playing scruggs style, when he didnt come up with it. no other instrument do people do this.
if you use a flatpick on guitar what person do they name that style after? if you use a bow on a fiddle what person do they name that style after?

steve davis - Posted - 11/08/2010:  17:31:48

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Well,you've stated how you feel...do you have anything to add?

larry p - Posted - 11/08/2010:  17:54:47

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Earl Scruggs is one of the few banjo players I know that doesn't 'try' to play Scruggs style. He IS Scruggs style. Over the past 30 years I've heard many of the great players mentioned in this thread, some of whom are reputed to be '2nd only to Earl', or 'as good as Earl', or, incredibly, ridiculously enough 'better than Earl' - struggle as they try to figure out how to play 'Sally Ann', or 'Sally Goodin', 'Shuckin' The Corn' or 'Nashville Skyline Rag' like Earl. They all play great and have wonderful things to offer. Many are personal friends of mine that I think the world of, and admire the direction they're taking their music in, but NONE ONE plays Scruggs style banjo at near the level Earl Scruggs does, even now as he approaches 87, for reasons that are simple and self explanatory. Likewise, though many work hard at it and a few do a mighty fine job with it-no one plays Sonny Osborne style banjo like Sonny. I've never heard anybody play J.D. Crowe style banjo like J.D. does.
I'm astounded at the assertion that, "earl didnt play jazz or classical. he played bluegrass". Earl Scruggs and Don Reno were playing jazz and classical pieces on the banjo back in the 1940s..I think Earl's recording of tunes like the Jazz classic 'Farewell Blues' and the Dixieland favorite 'Dear Old Dixie' is where some of the other great players mentioned here got the inspiration for their own great versions of these pieces. Beyond that, Earl Scruggs doesn't call what he plays 'bluegrass'. He plays what comes natural for him to play, be it playing an old traditional fiddle tune, a country classic, a hymn, a Beatles hit, or one of his own creations, with The Morris Brothers, Lost John, Bill Monroe, Lester Flatt, The Earl Scruggs Revue, Elton John, Billy Joel, Johnny Cash, Bela Fleck, or The Chieftans.
It's also interesting to note that many speak of Earl in the past tense, as if to say that he played good 30, 40, or 50 years ago, but not now. Uncle Josh used to say, "Watch him! You might think he's not really pickin', but by God next thing you know he'll jump all over you like a snake with something you never heard before and blow your mind".
I can tell you one thing from my own personal experience: I've been present when an Earl Scruggs well into his 80s has been surrounded by some of the top banjo players in the biz, and listened as they'd say, "WOW!! Did you hear THAT?? I've never heard him do THAT before!! He's blowing my mind!"
I have a feeling that there's a lot of talk going on here from some folks that would change drastically if they found themselves in the presence of 'the man'-especially if they had try to keep up with him with their banjo for a few minutes, even at his age.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/08/2010:  18:19:58

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quote:

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Originally posted by larry p

Earl Scruggs is one of the few banjo players I know that doesn't 'try' to play Scruggs style. He IS Scruggs style. Over the past 30 years I've heard many of the great players mentioned in this thread, some of whom are reputed to be '2nd only to Earl', or 'as good as Earl', or, incredibly, ridiculously enough 'better than Earl' - struggle as they try to figure out how to play 'Sally Ann', or 'Sally Goodin', 'Shuckin' The Corn' or 'Nashville Skyline Rag' like Earl. They all play great and have wonderful things to offer. Many are personal friends of mine that I think the world of, and admire the direction they're taking their music in, but NONE ONE plays Scruggs style banjo at near the level Earl Scruggs does, even now as he approaches 87, for reasons that are simple and self explanatory. Likewise, though many work hard at it and a few do a mighty fine job with it-no one plays Sonny Osborne style banjo like Sonny. I've never heard anybody play J.D. Crowe style banjo like J.D. does.
I'm astounded at the assertion that, "earl didnt play jazz or classical. he played bluegrass". Earl Scruggs and Don Reno were playing jazz and classical pieces on the banjo back in the 1940s..I think Earl's recording of tunes like the Jazz classic 'Farewell Blues' and the Dixieland favorite 'Dear Old Dixie' is where some of the other great players mentioned here got the inspiration for their own great versions of these pieces. Beyond that, Earl Scruggs doesn't call what he plays 'bluegrass'. He plays what comes natural for him to play, be it playing an old traditional fiddle tune, a country classic, a hymn, a Beatles hit, or one of his own creations, with The Morris Brothers, Lost John, Bill Monroe, Lester Flatt, The Earl Scruggs Revue, Elton John, Billy Joel, Johnny Cash, Bela Fleck, or The Chieftans.
It's also interesting to note that many speak of Earl in the past tense, as if to say that he played good 30, 40, or 50 years ago, but not now. Uncle Josh used to say, "Watch him! You might think he's not really pickin', but by God next thing you know he'll jump all over you like a snake with something you never heard before and blow your mind".
I can tell you one thing from my own personal experience: I've been present when an Earl Scruggs well into his 80s has been surrounded by some of the top banjo players in the biz, and listened as they'd say, "WOW!! Did you hear THAT?? I've never heard him do THAT before!! He's blowing my mind!"
I have a feeling that there's a lot of talk going on here from some folks that would change drastically if they found themselves in the presence of 'the man'-especially if they had try to keep up with him with their banjo for a few minutes, even at his age.

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Nailed it Larry.......

arnie fleischer - Posted - 11/08/2010:  18:32:27

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While anyone can have and express an opinion on just about anything, not every opinion is entitled to equal, or even any, respect. When someone expresses an opinion to me, even an opinion that I'm tempted to agree with, I ask myself a few questions.

What is the opinion based on? Actual fact? Perceived fact? Wishful thinking? Ignorance? Prejudice? Misrepresentation? Misunderstanding? Inaccurate or insufficient information?

How much knowledge about and/or experience with the matter does the person expressing the opinion have?

How does that person's knowledge and/or experience compare with mine?

To what extent has the person expressing the opinion considered, tried to understand, or at least thought about other viewpoints?

mikey5string - Posted - 11/08/2010:  19:53:11

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quote:

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Originally posted by stringbreaker

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjophobic

quote:

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Originally posted by mikey5string

[quote]not even the best scruggs player, oddly enough.

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Not the 'best Scruggs player".. What? No one can top Earl at playing "Scruggs". There are players who can play much more technically complicated things on banjo, as in Fleck. But that in no way 'trumps' Earl, in his prime, playing his own style. Im going to have to give a big thumbs down to that one Mikey,sorry.

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noone can top reno at playing reno style or fleck in fleck style either. only problem is you play a forward roll and everyone says you playing scruggs style, when he didnt come up with it. no other instrument do people do this.
if you use a flatpick on guitar what person do they name that style after? if you use a bow on a fiddle what person do they name that style after?

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do you understand the difference between a bow and a pick and a forward roll?

when you take your SATs you're going to see stuff like this. they're called "analogy" questions, it might be a good idea to take some practice quizzes.

and

"you play a forward roll and everyone says you plaing scruggs style"

so. where did you learn that "forward roll" or yours? let me guess.... sunffy jenkins. no no no bela fleck, scott vestal, don reno. i give up. who?

" no other instrument do people do this."

i assume you mean name atravispickingstyle after an artist?

hmmm. you might have got me on that one.

jbaker7 - Posted - 11/08/2010:  20:52:44

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Howdy All,
Ya gotta love this site and this thread. It has all the reactiontary posts anyone could hope for--15 pages, wowsers!!. All this brain power being displayed here--stunning. I'm so humbled by it all Jack Baker... Scruggs? Scruggs? Where have I heard that name?...

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Edited by - jbaker7 on 11/08/2010 20:55:23

banjoghost - Posted - 11/08/2010:  22:20:13

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as lester said:
Pearl, Pearl, Pearl, you'll get no love from Earl
This here man is such a sap, He won't hold you on his lap
Unless you are an old 5-string banjo

Goldstarman - Posted - 11/08/2010:  22:38:27

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I dont think most people really truly listen to Earl or anyone. They hear the music but they dont hear it, you know what I mean. Like when everyhting has to be stone cold quite and you listen to one lick in silence for like 10 times until your wife screams to let the damn thing just play...lol

I hope one day to be able to play one tune with the drive, taste, feel and power that Earl does or Ron to....I know it will never happen but it does give us somehting to aspire to.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 11/09/2010:  04:05:28

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quote:

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Originally posted by jbaker7

Howdy All,
Ya gotta love this site and this thread. It has all the reactiontary posts anyone could hope for--15 pages, wowsers!!. All this brain power being displayed here--stunning. I'm so humbled by it all Jack Baker... Scruggs? Scruggs? Where have I heard that name?...

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Jack Baker - the most talented banjo player there is. He can play left handed when playing for a BNL cover picture and right handed on the stage! Lets see anyone else do that!
Ken

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/09/2010:  07:37:53

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My issue with this thread is the bullies that demand a sound file in order to post an opinion.

Actually, I wouldn't mind if that were the rule.

The real rule trying to be implemented in this topic is you have to post a sound file in order to have a differing opinion.
I don't see the bluegrass bullies demanding that all the folks who agree that Earl is crucial to bluegrass banjo must also post sound files.

It bothers me that you can get away with boorish, obnoxious behavior that would shut down other topics just because it's Earl. Bad behavior, bad logic, and name calling isn't allowed in my book regardless of topic but I know that isn't how the rules are designed on BHO.

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/09/2010:  07:43:05

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I got to second that post.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 11/09/2010:  11:16:07

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quote:

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Originally posted by minstrelmike

My issue with this thread is the bullies that demand a sound file in order to post an opinion.

Actually, I wouldn't mind if that were the rule.

The real rule trying to be implemented in this topic is you have to post a sound file in order to have a differing opinion.
I don't see the bluegrass bullies demanding that all the folks who agree that Earl is crucial to bluegrass banjo must also post sound files.

It bothers me that you can get away with boorish, obnoxious behavior that would shut down other topics just because it's Earl. Bad behavior, bad logic, and name calling isn't allowed in my book regardless of topic but I know that isn't how the rules are designed on BHO.

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Mike,
I am going to respectfully disagree with you and Richard on this: or at least offer a different thought to it and if I am wrong please correct me. As I remember it, the reason that sound files were asked of Stringbreaker is because he represented himself on his homepage as a person at the "expert professional level". As his postings seemed to make less sense and be less creditable to people, his expert level was challenged. He was asked to substantiate his expert claim by posting sound files, which he agreed to do. But since then he has never posted them. To my understanding the request of sound files was to judge his credibility'sincerity, and honesty rather than to be a litmus test for legitimate posting.

Ken

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/09/2010:  11:27:56

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I suspect Ken is right as far as motivation, but I don't care.

I don't judge anybody else's credibility, sincerity and honesty, I judge their post and only their post.
I don't even look at anybody's home pages.

The other half of my argument is that 1) if you want to deal with trolls, do so. Good luck with that.
But 2) if you want to deal with the effects of trolls on random readers such as preventing misinformation, then performing personal attacks and dripping vitriol doesn't actually make the best argument. I find a well-stated case with no drama, anger or personal attacks makes a much better point to the lurkers.

I think anyone with a recorder can fake 'credentials' but you cannot fake a post.

stringbreaker - Posted - 11/09/2010:  12:27:30

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quote:

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Originally posted by mikey5string

quote:

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Originally posted by stringbreaker

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjophobic

quote:

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Originally posted by mikey5string

[quote]not even the best scruggs player, oddly enough.

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Not the 'best Scruggs player".. What? No one can top Earl at playing "Scruggs". There are players who can play much more technically complicated things on banjo, as in Fleck. But that in no way 'trumps' Earl, in his prime, playing his own style. Im going to have to give a big thumbs down to that one Mikey,sorry.

---

noone can top reno at playing reno style or fleck in fleck style either. only problem is you play a forward roll and everyone says you playing scruggs style, when he didnt come up with it. no other instrument do people do this.
if you use a flatpick on guitar what person do they name that style after? if you use a bow on a fiddle what person do they name that style after?

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do you understand the difference between a bow and a pick and a forward roll?

when you take your SATs you're going to see stuff like this. they're called "analogy" questions, it might be a good idea to take some practice quizzes.

and

"you play a forward roll and everyone says you plaing scruggs style"

so. where did you learn that "forward roll" or yours? let me guess.... sunffy jenkins. no no no bela fleck, scott vestal, don reno. i give up. who?

" no other instrument do people do this."

i assume you mean name atravispickingstyle after an artist?

hmmm. you might have got me on that one.

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the rolls came before earl. there are recordings that prove this. earl is credited with creating 3 finger style rolls and it predates him.
yes a roll isnt same as pick as analogy but you got my point.
if you play alternating picking on a guitar who do they name it after? if you do a shuffle bow on the fiddle, who do they name that after? techniques arent named after musicians for most part. rolls are string technique that predates earl. many of bluegrass banjo sounds predate earl. when i crosspick on mandolin they dont say mcreynolds style either.

stringbreaker - Posted - 11/09/2010:  12:34:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

quote:

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Originally posted by minstrelmike

My issue with this thread is the bullies that demand a sound file in order to post an opinion.

Actually, I wouldn't mind if that were the rule.

The real rule trying to be implemented in this topic is you have to post a sound file in order to have a differing opinion.
I don't see the bluegrass bullies demanding that all the folks who agree that Earl is crucial to bluegrass banjo must also post sound files.

It bothers me that you can get away with boorish, obnoxious behavior that would shut down other topics just because it's Earl. Bad behavior, bad logic, and name calling isn't allowed in my book regardless of topic but I know that isn't how the rules are designed on BHO.

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Mike,
I am going to respectfully disagree with you and Richard on this: or at least offer a different thought to it and if I am wrong please correct me. As I remember it, the reason that sound files were asked of Stringbreaker is because he represented himself on his homepage as a person at the "expert professional level". As his postings seemed to make less sense and be less creditable to people, his expert level was challenged. He was asked to substantiate his expert claim by posting sound files, which he agreed to do. But since then he has never posted them. To my understanding the request of sound files was to judge his credibility'sincerity, and honesty rather than to be a litmus test for legitimate posting.

Ken

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there are lots of players on here with no soundfiles. some experts express unpopular opinions. they dont get asked to post files. only if you think earl is overrated and boring do you get asked. mike is right. the people that just so happen to agree with boulding and kid dont get asked to post soundfiles. soundfiles mean nothing. you have no way of knowing who is palying in files anyways.

stringbreaker - Posted - 11/09/2010:  12:35:19

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

I got to second that post.

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saying one thing but previously responding another

Banjo - Posted - 11/09/2010:  13:02:45

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ambpicker - Posted - 11/09/2010:  14:21:55

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I'd be lying if I said I understood what in the world you just said.

ambpicker - Posted - 11/09/2010:  14:33:47

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Personally, I would equate Earl's musical genius as equal to the genius of Michelangelo or Albert Einstein.
I have listened to his playing for more than half my life, and had the priviledge of visiting with him and Louise, at his home.
He played my banjo, just one tune, Sally Ann.
I can not really put into words what I witnessed.
As good as I thought he was from listening to his recordings, I came away with the impression he was about a hundred times better than I thought he was.

TopCat - Posted - 11/09/2010:  14:57:37

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People,

Can we please STOP FEEDING THE TROLL who revived this thread after it was thankfully (seemingly) dead and buried!

The KIDD - Posted - 11/09/2010:  16:01:10

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Hey LAURENCE D , HEY JOHN B, HEY JOEMAC, HEY JIM H, We're all fakes..
Talk about livin a Virtual world!!!!!!!!..Do you posers think we only pick on HERE and not pick a banjo in public?.. You guys are the ones hidin behind your keyboards. Real world pickers WHO ACTUALLY PLAY like.. in front of other people (what a concept....) are proud to share our playing and collaborate with one another and actually "HELP" New players...Most of you poser's advice is garbage and hurts new players. REAL players on here actually have STUDENTS that benifit greatly from REAL life exps of actual Banjo Playing. If your virtual world advice actually helped anyone, why do we see the same posts Over and Over and Over!
If your gonna dish it out, ya better be able to take it!!!. Ill put MY credentials up against ANY of you poser's ANY DAY... All you have is your keybaord. You must think awlfully high and mighty of yourselves to think just your spoken word suffices, to which I ALWAYS disagree 100%..Ill put MY spoken word AND banjo playing that actually can illustrate what is being talked ABOUT (HELLO?)
There ... Back at ya..

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 11/09/2010:  17:35:25

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Amen... FMB or Pike co. at 20 foot.. or in front of a large audience on Stage!! As the old saying is, Time to put up or shut up!

I d%&$ Well know who's playing on my Homepage and the Juke box tunes I post...(and I can make a good banjer player flinch)

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Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 11/09/2010 17:37:14

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/09/2010:  18:37:39

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Theres lots of reasons to ask for soundfiles. Many time folks ask questions about playing the banjo; specifically asking about their own technique and progress. It helps to hear where the person is, as opposed to trying to figure it out from texting. As a matter of fact, Ive heard more than one person on this thread ask for such files. Theres no substitute for a real soundfile, to actually get a firm grasp of whats going on with their playing. Is that being a "bully"? I would think that its just trying to help someone. By the same token, if someone espouses a position concerning improving one's banjo playing with some complicated theory construct, I dont think its 'bullying' to ask for a soundfile example to hear it. Many times folks need to hear theory or ideas played on banjo, to make the mental connection to whats being explained.
Someone who makes claims like "Earl was always out of tune", "Earl wasnt creative" and other such nonsense, must be speaking from a musical perspective as a very accomplished player ,seeing as how they claim to be 'expert and professional'. I find it extremely telling and useful, to hear said person playing the banjo, so I can see from where these opinions are formed. Is it a requirement to post a soundfile to have an opinion-heck no. But anyone who defames another persons playing , regardless of who it is, on any forum here, should be prepared to be called out. I dont care if its Earl, or Joe schmo Hangout member, whose playing is being knocked. If you make such rude comments, repeatedly, then why shouldnt we have the right to ask for them to show us how superior they are musically? I for one will have zero respect for those who just float around the Hangout, talking junk about others picking, especially players like Earl, and who claim to be an expert player, who will not even post a clip. Maybe its just the southern boy I am, but if they have a need to diminish others and call it 'opinion', then I have just as much right to ask for you to play and show me how much better you are. Maybe they should be quiet and grow a backbone too. Its just a thought...

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Edited by - Banjophobic on 11/09/2010 18:44:01

stringbreaker - Posted - 11/09/2010:  19:34:55

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quote:

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Originally posted by The KIDD

Hey LAURENCE D , HEY JOHN B, HEY JOEMAC, HEY JIM H, We're all fakes..
Talk about livin a Virtual world!!!!!!!!..Do you posers think we only pick on HERE and not pick a banjo in public?.. You guys are the ones hidin behind your keyboards. Real world pickers WHO ACTUALLY PLAY like.. in front of other people (what a concept....) are proud to share our playing and collaborate with one another and actually "HELP" New players...Most of you poser's advice is garbage and hurts new players. REAL players on here actually have STUDENTS that benifit greatly from REAL life exps of actual Banjo Playing. If your virtual world advice actually helped anyone, why do we see the same posts Over and Over and Over!
If your gonna dish it out, ya better be able to take it!!!. Ill put MY credentials up against ANY of you poser's ANY DAY... All you have is your keybaord. You must think awlfully high and mighty of yourselves to think just your spoken word suffices, to which I ALWAYS disagree 100%..Ill put MY spoken word AND banjo playing that actually can illustrate what is being talked ABOUT (HELLO?)
There ... Back at ya..

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noone called you a fake. havent called you any names nor has anyone else. i dont care where you pick your banjo. it wont make you right and me wrong.
ive been in bho chatroom for hour every night for last 3 days. im in there now. credentials? are you gonna list them like stewart did.

stringbreaker - Posted - 11/09/2010:  19:44:22

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asking for soundfiles when advice is needed isnt same. telling someone they have to post them to be informed is bullying. if i make statement earl was out of tune on a track you dont need to hear my playing just earls. if i say he played same licks for 40 yrs, you need to listen to earl.
you dont have to be musically superior to critique anothers playing. you dont have to play. people critique the jobs of others all the time with no experience in that job. politicians, baseball players, actors, chefs, etc.
maybe you should stop telling people to grow backbones, calling them posers and trolls and be a normal bho member.

The KIDD - Posted - 11/09/2010:  19:46:27

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You LIE... I gave a workshop in the chat room 7-9 PM EDT last night and was on line getting ready WAY before that.. THEN, we stayed in there till past midnight I KNOW.. The chat room was NOT even locked.. Ive never seen you in there dude... Sounds like your challenging me again....OK, your on , If I go to the Chat Room your ARE gonna play right?...Lets do it!!!
Where do you get this bullying crap... Im NOT gettin that?. No bodys forcin you to do anything, say anything.

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Edited by - The KIDD on 11/09/2010 19:49:27

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/09/2010:  20:02:20

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I call it like I see it..trolls, and folks who just want to make trouble always have the same posting style. I am a normal Hangout member and have the right to form an opinion about someones posts as does everyone else. Growing a backbone is slang for taking the heat for things you say. You are all about trolling in my view and I'll continue to call out trolling as long as im able. You have the right to sow bad seeds all you like ,and I have the right to pour Clorox on them whenever I can. Its as simple as that. You have the right to state opinions, just as I do. My opinion is that your postings are subversive in nature and you seek to cause fights. Your opinion of me may be that Im full of it. Whatever...it makes no real difference to how the world spins.

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Edited by - Banjophobic on 11/09/2010 20:21:53

The KIDD - Posted - 11/09/2010:  20:02:29

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We'll pick a tune from Bill K and Scott V how bout that? How bout Sailors HP?.. Your BOUND to know that.. How bout anything off 95 or 96 (mostly jam tunes) for Vestal?.. You IN?

larry p - Posted - 11/09/2010:  22:13:28

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‘Stringbreaker’, whether you like, admire, or appreciate Earl Scruggs is of no concern to me whatsoever. My hope for you (and everyone else on this planet) is that there’s someone in your life that inspires you like Earl Scruggs inspires me. I hope you have a friend in your walk that’s as good a friend to you as Earl Scruggs has been to me for the past 30 years.
I don’t care if you post a sound-file, or if you can play, or how you play.
It’s my belief that we’re all entitled to our opinions, and have the right to express those opinions.
So, the reasons I’ve chosen to participate in this thread at all is not to challenge your opinions, or try to establish whether you are who you say you are, or prod you into proving whether you can play or not.
You are clearly misinformed about a few things, and your persistent spinning and posting of this erroneous misinformation has the sinister appearance of overt attempts to cast cruel, undeserved dispersions towards a gentleman whom you don’t know, nor know little to nothing about. Surely you couldn’t be that kind of person!! Earl Scruggs is a friend of mine, and has been for over thirty years. I know, as do many others, that he doesn’t deserve the untrue, unkind, venomous things you’ve been saying. It’s not my place to ‘defend’ Earl Scruggs, but it grieves me to say that Earl has not been well lately, which makes your insults and false accusations downright unbearable to me. If you read this post, you will be informed about some things that up ‘til now you’ve obviously been misinformed about. If you persist in your insidious remarks about Earl Scruggs and his music after being correctly informed, I for one will know as much as I need to know about you and your character, whether you can play the banjo or have the guts to post a sound file.
You said, "kid, i answered all the questions against my opinions with referenced recordngs and songs."
I saw a list referenced songs and recordings you posted in answering 'all the questions against your opinions', and if I failed to bring it to your attention the first time I read that, I'll do so now:
On ‘The Banjo Man,’ one of the three reference tracks you provided to illustrate some of your observations about Earl’s music, you must know that Earl Scruggs doesn’t participate on the track whatsoever. That's Randy Scruggs playing banjo, in an obvious tribute to his father. You’ve obviously not done your homework.
On your ‘homepage’, you state,
“home sweet home by mack woolbright can be found here. recorded 1927 way before earl
youtube.com/watch?v=27VbHEfjcPs
should be easy to hear were earls version came from.
listen to snuffy jenkins play dear ole dixie, sally goodwin
or cumberland gap
banjr.com/hangout/cumberland%2...ample.mp3
he took other peoples arrangements and says, "nobody was doing it before more". Hogwash”

Earl Scruggs has NEVER said that ‘nobody was doing it’ before he did. Please show me one shred of evidence that he has made such a claim. You can’t. To the contrary, Earl Scruggs has ALWAYS said that hearing Mac Woolbright’s version of ‘Home, Sweet Home’ (played as the instrumental section of the song, ‘The Man Who Wrote Home Sweet Home Never Was A Married Man’) was a tremendous influence on him and his music. Earl has always been gracious and candid about those who were influential in the early formative years as he developed his own approach to the banjo, and has ALWAYS credited Rex Brooks, Smith Hammett, and Snuffy Jenkins for the ways they inspired him early on.

Thanks so much for sharing that audio clip of Snuffy Jenkins playing ‘Cumberland Gap’-it’s wonderful! A hero and mentor of mine, Wade Garrett, was a contemporary of Snuffy Jenkins, and a good friend of Mac Woolbright’s. Wade’s version of ‘Cumberland Gap’ was very much like Snuffy’s. I dare say most any ‘three finger style’ picker who is familiar with that melody at all would sound somewhat similar on it. The fact is that when Earl Scruggs plays those tunes, the differences are evident and obvious to anyone who can hear. The ‘Scruggs Style’ roll is different, the ‘phrasing’ is different, the accents within the melody are different, the ‘drive’ is different, the ‘back-up’ is different. It’s decidedly, distinctly ‘Scruggs’. Whether it’s ‘better’ is a matter of opinion.
To say that 'earl is overrated, out of tune most of time, and plays same licks for 50 yrs', is astounding. How can you say such a thing about a humble, hardworking, exceptionally talented artist who has IN FACT created a style of his own from the fount of his own creativity, (all the while taking care to credit those who have been an influence on his music), who obviously has had the good sense and work ethic to parlay HIS style into a viable business? How can you say in good conscious that Earl Scruggs is 'overrated', when it's a well known fact that he creates and plays his own 'style', and the world has had such a powerful, irresistible reaction to his work since it was first broadcast on WSM 65 years ago? The public that Earl Scruggs has blessed and inspired by and through his music is not responsible for nor is he interested in how he is 'rated'.
To say Earl Scruggs is 'out of tune most of the time' is simply not true. Earl Scruggs began his career at a time when skin heads, tension style 5th string pegs, and unreliable tuning mechanisms were standard equipment on the banjos of the day. To make matters even more difficult, much of his career was spent traveling in automobiles that had been ‘stretched’, which effected the suspension in an adverse way, causing the instruments in the trunk to be constantly bounced about, with no climate control-yet the records and recorded radio shows reveal quite clearly that in spite of all these adversities, Earl’s instrument was always exceedingly well set up, and his pitch, tone, and balance within the bands he worked with has always been perfect in my opinion. On the very rare occasion you hear his banjo go out of tune, (usually during a radio show or live show recording) it doesn’t stay that way for long.

To say that Earl has played the ‘same licks for 50 yrs' is absolutely, wholly incorrect, and your saying so merely indicates that you haven’t listened and are not familiar with the body of his work.
Compare Earl’s first recorded version of ‘Roll In My Sweet Baby’s Arms’ with Lester Flatt with his 1980s era version with Tom T. Hall. His approach to the tune is vastly different, yet distinctively ‘Scruggs’.
Listen to ‘No Expectations’ from the ‘Storyteller and the Banjoman’, and you’ll hear ‘Scruggs style’ licks that are fresh and new.
Listen to his last live album at the Ryman: it’s chocked full of new, surprising twist on his ‘Scruggs Style’
You say that, “the rolls came before earl. there are recordings that prove this. earl is credited with creating 3 finger style rolls and it predates him.”
Earl isn’t credited with creating ‘rolls’-he is correctly and justifiably credited with creating ‘Scruggs Style.’
Lastly, to those who say that there are others who play ‘Scruggs Style’ better than Earl Scruggs does, I’d like to point out that it’s doubtful you’ll ever hear one of these artist pick up a banjo but what they wont try to play a Scruggs tune, a Scruggs break, or a Scruggs back-up line JUST LIKE EARL, but you wont EVER hear Earl Scruggs play anything but Earl Scruggs.
Beyond being a true friend, help, and mentor to me for many years now, Earl Scruggs has ALWAYS been willing to show anyone anything they want to know about his music, and does so with class, humility, and at times-a lot of patience.
If you don’t like him or his music, that’s your right, but when you attack him and his contributions to the fabric of our music, especially now at this stage of his life, it hits a real sore spot with me.
I’d feel the same way if someone publicly slandered and attacked any other dear friend of mine. Perhaps you’d consider that when you make these cruel, inaccurate statements: you’re talking about someone’s father, friend, mentor, and hero, and we don’t appreciate it anymore than you’d appreciate someone coming on here to improperly inappropriately discredit a member of your family, or someone who’s made a positive difference in your life.

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Edited by - larry p on 11/09/2010 23:25:14

dmiller - Posted - 11/09/2010:  22:39:56

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Dang Larry - - - tell us how you REALLY feel! Nice. Very nice!!

stringbreaker - Posted - 11/09/2010:  22:58:37

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quote:

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Originally posted by The KIDD

You LIE... I gave a workshop in the chat room 7-9 PM EDT last night and was on line getting ready WAY before that.. THEN, we stayed in there till past midnight I KNOW.. The chat room was NOT even locked.. Ive never seen you in there dude... Sounds like your challenging me again....OK, your on , If I go to the Chat Room your ARE gonna play right?...Lets do it!!!
Where do you get this bullying crap... Im NOT gettin that?. No bodys forcin you to do anything, say anything.

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i was in chat hours ago and was night before. i played some tunes while i was there.
im not challenging you. you challenged me to post soundfiles, etc and mike as well. im not interested in listening at you play. i dont think playing makes you right so i dont care. not interested in playing vestal breaks i prefer to create my own. tho his red apple rag is fun.
calling me a troll, poser,liar and telling me to put up soundfiles is bullying. you and boulding are doing a good job of the normal bho way.

earl isnt all ive talked about on here ya know. nor am i the first youve ranted at.

dmiller - Posted - 11/09/2010:  23:36:37

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I was one of the five. We had a good time there stringbreaker. Too bad you couldn't have joined in.
The KIDD did play some good tunes (although he had a "fuzzy" mic tonight). Any suggestions about mics?