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larry p - Posted - 10/11/2010: 00:56:50
It's hard to accept ANYTHING as credible coming from someone who is as ill-informed as 'stringbreaker' (whoever he or she might be); the last clip provided by this so-called 'stringbreaker', that's preceded with some 'advise' from him (or her) to 'learn these tunes after 'Foggy Mountain Breakdown'-isn't even Earl Scruggs. If you can't tell it's NOT Earl by LISTENING, you can read the liner notes to the album it appears on. It's Randy Scruggs, who's doing a great job playing banjo on 'The Banjoman'.
granderman - Posted - 10/11/2010: 03:01:31
this is exactly why we have lost the experienced and very helpful folks like Dick Brown and others . just wish we didn't have such in experienced players making such broad statements on any subject regarding the banjo. maybe before you bash Earl you should have to submit a recording of ground speed at 140BPM that would thin the crowd out !
kremec - Posted - 10/11/2010: 04:04:16
Ron said: JD once said "You have to get it, to be able to try to get it!"
Ron, I remember J.D. once said he´d like to "break your fingers"!
That is good enough credentials for me.
Kresimir
EDIT: Stringbreaker, you deserve a facepalm of the century.
Edited by - kremec on 10/11/2010 04:17:12
doug.knecht - Posted - 10/11/2010: 04:43:39
Stringbreaker,
Listen to Earl with a musician's ear in the respect that he learned the banjo three finger style partly from his brother- had no DVDs like you do, or tablature. He popularized this style with finesse and gained great respect from the banjo players who followed. His work with Lester Flatt alone puts most people in a trance and reminds them of how you first learned. His music is foundational. Then it's inspirational. Then the tone hits you. He created a niche for the sound he played. Tone rings have been made to replicate that prewar sound he displayed. Only to find out most of it is in the right hand. Think of all the hard work and humble attitude he had.
Then let's list your contributions to the banjo world. You're disrespecting the reason why BHO even has a bluegrass section in it.
I don't carry the credentials. But you don't have to to recognize a gross err in judgment.
Be a musician and a banjo player who fesses up to what it would be like had not Earl Scruggs taught us a music style we still cling to. Your playing would be waiting for such a master to this day, and you'd be playing nothing in bluegrass, let me reassure you that.
I ain't trying to be "mean" to you, Stringbreaker. I want you to face the facts. Wake up! Banjo music in the bluegrass style is Earl Scruggs. Not just in sound but in history. You're entitled to believe, as many may, that the new pickers have even more finesse and interesting chord changes. But consider the time frame and the advancement of how jazz and blues influenced new banjo pickers. Earl was ahead of his time. He broke off to play with his sons later to prove he had even yet more to offer. And he was a humble human being. Something not many people know how to be anymore.
One more point, more of a philisophical point. Stringbreaker, you assume that history is something that depends purely on the present (ie, bluegrass exists today without the intervention of Earl's help, that he has nothing to do with Bela, Alan Munde, Sonny Osborne, Terry Baucom, etc.......). In reality, history is a cause and effect thing that builds upon an origin of something that happened in the past (Earl's picking).
Hats off to Mr Earl Scruggs.
Edited by - doug.knecht on 10/11/2010 05:09:32
Tam_Zeb - Posted - 10/11/2010: 06:27:45
Guy's don't feed the TROLL anymore we all know who he is and he's been exposed for all that he is. A nobody trying to be a somebody. His only purpose here is to disrupt this forum and if we feed him he controls all our emotions. By not engaging in direct dialog with him you are depriving him of all status here.
Earl is a living legend. The world's media will ensure his legacy is enshrined in the annuals of time and in a few weeks this childish insignificant TROLL will change identity and move on.
Let's keep things in perspective. His views are his views, neither you or I will change his views. By engaging in direct dialog with him your providing him with the platform he seeks to control YOU!!!
Think about it. You are permitting him to control your thoughts and emotions... He wants to get you angry he wants you to loose your temper. He wants to control YOU!!!
steve davis - Posted - 10/11/2010: 06:56:11
I see something very positive out of this.
This stringbreaker is obviously alone in his opinions and has caused a lot of folks
to say good things about Earl.
The only way he could do any harm would be if others joined him in his hatred.
I don't see any danger of that.
The KIDD - Posted - 10/11/2010: 07:36:32
Yeah Steve, this thread has been VERY VERY "Enlightening".The thread was never intended to be about SB.BUT, like you said, its been great way to rally everyone together in support for Earl but it has also let me know how populated Poserville has become. It exposed many for who they REALLY are , what they support,(and dont support......)and stand for.Its certainly made the difference between the virtual world that exists on here and the REAL world, as it pertains to banjo, alot more clear and why.
KIDD
mike gregory - Posted - 10/11/2010: 11:51:39
I've got a big hat and a banjo, and I'm not afraid to use them to flame against people smaller than myself!
Anybody know how tall Stringbreaker is?
Perhaps only his heart is three sizes too small.
Perhaps he had an unhappy childhood.
Perhaps he really IS better than Earl, but is too shy to post a sound file proving it.
Perhaps a lotta stuff.
eddb - Posted - 10/11/2010: 11:57:58
I am fairly new to the banjo, started a few months ago after breaking my shoulder. I bought a book, Earls of course, a few more cd's of material and set about learning. The main thing for me that I have learn't from the BHO and many of you on this thread is that playing music the banjo is about having fun, playing and listening. For me Earl, J.D, Don Reno, Ralph Stanley, Bill Emerson and many others before them and those that have followed them, set the world on fire with there ability's and gift of bluegrass music that they have brought us on the banjo. It does not matter if you like there particular style or not, you can never take away there achievements, or the inspiration they have brought to people like me. It is not necessary for people to be so derogatory about great players, and I respect all that defend the same great players, it's just so sad that you have to.
Edd
Tam_Zeb - Posted - 10/11/2010: 15:00:15
Thanks Mike it's great to finish on a lighter note.....
Bob Robert - Posted - 10/12/2010: 06:08:59
Mike, I want to see you make a banjo like the Minstrel's, flames and all!
As for Earl, I would agree with those who grow weary of hearing people say, basically, that if it ain't Earl, it ain't banjo/bluegrass/real/whatever (a loose summation of many expressed opinions), and of those who try to be Earl clones.
On the other hand, as already stated more times than I care to count, if it weren't for Earl, not many of us would be picking, and just about every banjo player owes something to Earl. I wish I could play even a fraction as well as Earl does.
So, basically, my view on Earl is this: God he ain't, a great musician he definitely is.
Next question.
(Not that anyone asked me . . .)
Westvon - Posted - 10/15/2010: 19:38:20
Not sure if any of the "Anti-Earl" sentiments are so much outspoken, but I do think there is a great deal of "Earl-Ignorance" out there. Too many newer banjo players I meet will tell me that their banjo mentors are people like Jerry Garcia, or some unknown guy in one of the Irish folksy bands that are being sold at colleges and universities as bluegrass acts. As an historian, I tend to look at cultural trends, and patterns in thinking across the span of time. It seems too often that many people are "a historical" and simply do not possess the capacity to either understand, nor learn from history. This would apply to the music world, and is made manifest in the levels of disregard, and disrespect for those who went before us. The further we move from any given point in history, the more apt a society is to forget the past, or gain knowledge and wisdom from it. Sorry for being so academic about it, but at the end of the day, at least for me, I'm going to side with Socrates who said, "The unexamined life is not worth living."
On a different note, I have run into young and old guitar players who want to be Tony Rice, yet think Jimmy Martin is not important to study and master. What they don't seem to understand is that even Tony Rice will tell these guys to master the rhythm of Jimmy Martin, then try to play fancy leads.
Earl is, and always will be...................................THE MAN!
Edited by - Westvon on 10/15/2010 19:41:17
mullie1 - Posted - 10/15/2010: 20:00:47
quote:
Originally posted by Westvon
Not sure if any of the "Anti-Earl" sentiments are so much outspoken, but I do think there is a great deal of "Earl-Ignorance" out there. Too many newer banjo players I meet will tell me that their banjo mentors are people like Jerry Garcia, or some unknown guy in one of the Irish folksy bands that are being sold at colleges and universities as bluegrass acts. As an historian, I tend to look at cultural trends, and patterns in thinking across the span of time. It seems too often that many people are "a historical" and simply do not possess the capacity to either understand, nor learn from history. This would apply to the music world, and is made manifest in the levels of disregard, and disrespect for those who went before us. The further we move from any given point in history, the more apt a society is to forget the past, or gain knowledge and wisdom from it. Sorry for being so academic about it, but at the end of the day, at least for me, I'm going to side with Socrates who said, "The unexamined life is not worth living."
On a different note, I have run into young and old guitar players who want to be Tony Rice, yet think Jimmy Martin is not important to study and master. What they don't seem to understand is that even Tony Rice will tell these guys to master the rhythm of Jimmy Martin, then try to play fancy leads.
Earl is, and always will be...................................THE MAN!
I think it is obvious in this thread that Earl Scruggs is "the man". We all pretty much agree <and don't need a whole lot of academia jargon to figure that out>. IMO, it's refreshing to see many new banjo players surfacing with role models ranging from Bela Fleck, Tony Trischka, Alison Brown, and Scott Vestal....to Lluis Gomez and Jens Kruger. Yes, "the man" Earl was and always will be the foundation for all that came after him, but I will not discount the many great banjo players of today that are attracting the next generation of great pickers. "Anti-Earl"?? I don't see it. But I do see a lot of people wearing blinders that believe that Earl is the be all and end all player with respect to everything banjo. There are lots of contributers.
boyratchet - Posted - 10/16/2010: 05:56:39
I don't think it's hard to understand the point stringbreaker is making. It isn't terribly offensive. I even agree with some of his statements and commend him for his restrain under the circumstances. That being said, I like Earl, but I have to say that I just don't get the religious fervor with which he is so often discussed. Of course my wife accuses me of Norman Blake worship, so I'm not really on firm ground to criticize others for expressing their passion.
steve davis - Posted - 10/16/2010: 06:13:20
It's not fervor...it's respect.
kipperr - Posted - 10/16/2010: 06:19:08
quote:
Originally posted by boyratchet
Of course my wife accuses me of Norman Blake worship, so I'm not really on firm ground to criticize others for expressing their passion.
Good, then please don't.
Glad you're able to see & understand where a lot of people here are coming from.
And Norman Blake played out of tune most of the time.
Brett - Posted - 10/16/2010: 07:23:14
Bless those who don't learn "Scruggs style", as they have a hard time fitting into any jam style circumstances and that is where the fun really is. Without that skill mix of scruggs licks and an ear, all you can do is stand on the periphery of a great jam and hope someone will ask to hear Weinerface Hornpipe in open F so you can demonstrate your skill mix of memorized melodic banjo from some 70's instruction manual......Brett.
mullie1 - Posted - 10/16/2010: 07:52:24
quote:
Originally posted by Brett
Bless those who don't learn "Scruggs style", as they have a hard time fitting into any jam style circumstances and that is where the fun really is. Without that skill mix of scruggs licks and an ear, all you can do is stand on the periphery of a great jam and hope someone will ask to hear Weinerface Hornpipe in open F so you can demonstrate your skill mix of memorized melodic banjo from some 70's instruction manual......Brett.
Who is recommending against learning "scruggs style"?? I haven't met one banjo player that currently plays any other style that didn't at some point learn the scruggs technique. Actually, bless those that ONLY play scruggs style...as they are missing out on some great music that can come out of that banjo!
steve davis - Posted - 10/16/2010: 08:29:39
Well,Brett,here are many more varieties of pickers than just Scruggs stylists and
Whatever Hornpipe in F learned from a 70s book.
Most everything I learned about picking bluegrass banjo came
from tab in the 70s and 80s.
I did take 1 lesson from Bela Fleck in the 70s.
I like Rickett's Hornpipe a lot better than that one you mentioned.
My mother would always dance a schottische when I played hornpipes.
Her grandparents came from Yorkshire.
I learned all my early banjo from playing the banjo plectrum style w/a flat pick to country/western music behind a pedal steel and piano.
There's all kinds of different ways to get good at playing a banjo.
Pretty simple,really.
I find it exciting and fun to sit in on any jam and I don't memorize what I'm going to play
unless I'm recording for someone.
Edited by - steve davis on 10/16/2010 08:43:33
Westvon - Posted - 10/16/2010: 09:19:46
quote:
Originally posted by mullie1
quote:
Originally posted by Westvon
Not sure if any of the "Anti-Earl" sentiments are so much outspoken, but I do think there is a great deal of "Earl-Ignorance" out there. Too many newer banjo players I meet will tell me that their banjo mentors are people like Jerry Garcia, or some unknown guy in one of the Irish folksy bands that are being sold at colleges and universities as bluegrass acts. As an historian, I tend to look at cultural trends, and patterns in thinking across the span of time. It seems too often that many people are "a historical" and simply do not possess the capacity to either understand, nor learn from history. This would apply to the music world, and is made manifest in the levels of disregard, and disrespect for those who went before us. The further we move from any given point in history, the more apt a society is to forget the past, or gain knowledge and wisdom from it. Sorry for being so academic about it, but at the end of the day, at least for me, I'm going to side with Socrates who said, "The unexamined life is not worth living."
On a different note, I have run into young and old guitar players who want to be Tony Rice, yet think Jimmy Martin is not important to study and master. What they don't seem to understand is that even Tony Rice will tell these guys to master the rhythm of Jimmy Martin, then try to play fancy leads.
Earl is, and always will be...................................THE MAN!
I think it is obvious in this thread that Earl Scruggs is "the man". We all pretty much agree <and don't need a whole lot of academia jargon to figure that out>. IMO, it's refreshing to see many new banjo players surfacing with role models ranging from Bela Fleck, Tony Trischka, Alison Brown, and Scott Vestal....to Lluis Gomez and Jens Kruger. Yes, "the man" Earl was and always will be the foundation for all that came after him, but I will not discount the many great banjo players of today that are attracting the next generation of great pickers. "Anti-Earl"?? I don't see it. But I do see a lot of people wearing blinders that believe that Earl is the be all and end all player with respect to everything banjo. There are lots of contributers.
I have my way of understanding the issues, you have your way. The academic "jargon" was not about proving whether Earl is the man, it was descriptive language about why an understanding of history is important. You don't have to be an academic to figure that out.
Very few people would say that Earl is the be all, and end all of the banjo.
boyratchet - Posted - 10/16/2010: 16:47:02
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis
It's not fervor...it's respect.
I grew up in the bible belt, and having been hammered with such unrelenting, unforgiving and inflexible fervor, I feel comfortable with how I phrased my post, so with all due respect, I'll stick with my word choice. By the way, I would give my right nut to play like you. OK maybe not like you, as you already have that base covered, but I think you get my point.
quote:
Originally posted by kipperr
quote:
Originally posted by boyratchet
Of course my wife accuses me of Norman Blake worship, so I'm not really on firm ground to criticize others for expressing their passion.
Good, then please don't.
Glad you're able to see & understand where a lot of people here are coming from.
And Norman Blake played out of tune most of the time.
OK. His picking can be sloppy too. He's also been know to push the beat, rarely moves past the first position, lacks harmonic sophistication and plays too loud. The funny thing is, these are all reasons why I like him.
I like Mr. Scruggs picking immensely, but that being said, it was Don Reno that inspired me to pick up the banjo. If you were to say that his picking was sloppy at times, I would have to agree, but when he was on...OH MY GOD! These guys are just human, of course they made mistakes. So what? That doesn't detract from their legacy. We all are evidence to that, so why be so defensive?
Incidentally, I don't get where some of the posters are coming from. No offense intended.
Edited by - boyratchet on 10/16/2010 16:48:20
kipperr - Posted - 10/16/2010: 17:41:46
quote:
Originally posted by boyratchet
OK. His picking can be sloppy too. He's also been know to push the beat, rarely moves past the first position, lacks harmonic sophistication and plays too loud. The funny thing is, these are all reasons why I like him.
I like Mr. Scruggs picking immensely, but that being said, it was Don Reno that inspired me to pick up the banjo. If you were to say that his picking was sloppy at times, I would have to agree, but when he was on...OH MY GOD! These guys are just human, of course they made mistakes. So what? That doesn't detract from their legacy. We all are evidence to that, so why be so defensive?
I agree with the philosophy of everything you just said. Strongly. I'd rather hear a song/player with heart who flubs many of their notes
(Joseph Spence anyone?), than a perfect, sterile, technician who never misses a note (take your pick).
Actually, I LOVE Norman (and Nancy), and my "plays out of tune" comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I assumed you made your post defending stringfaker without knowing all of the facts, and it appears I was correct. His "Earl didn't play anything original" garbage is only the latest in his flamethrowing. Check his other posts in other threads. Earlier, he had started things off in another thread by proclaiming that Earl played out of tune most of the time. Without providing any proof. Thus my cheeky reference. He's proven himself a troll time and again, and that's not a charge I make lightly.
quote:
Incidentally, I don't get where some of the posters are coming from. No offense intended.
Now maybe you understand better why the strong Earl defense on this thread.
boyratchet - Posted - 10/16/2010: 19:24:09
quote:
Originally posted by kipperr
I agree with the philosophy of everything you just said. Strongly. I'd rather hear a song/player with heart who flubs many of their notes (Joseph Spence anyone?), than a perfect, sterile, technician who never misses a note (take your pick).
I only discovered Joseph Spence recently, but I am a convert. Am I the only one who thinks that Clarence White might have 1 or 2 of his records?
quote:
Originally posted by kipperr
Actually, I LOVE Norman (and Nancy), and my "plays out of tune" comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
I assumed so. I have been attempting to transcribe some of his solos (from live recordings in the 70s), and I can tell you, if all that mess is intentional, the guy is bloody genius. Even if it isn't, the guy is a bloody genius.
Seriously, my study of Mr. Blake's work has made me come to a conclusion: so what if it wasn't intentional. I have pass hours trying to figure out single measures (in part due to bad recordings), and in the end I realized, dissecting his work so clinically was really missing the point. I love Mr. Blake's playing in large part due to the awesome grooves he catches. And
that isn't about particular notes, but more about feel and timing. So what if he hit two strings where a "more sophisticated" player would have hit one? Accidentally muted a string? (Who am I to judge?) That really seems to be missing the point. The gentleman displays a knowledge of tradition, and yet pushes it to exciting new places. He's the first to admit that he's just a "hillside musician", working off of what he learned from Riley Pucket, Maybelle Carter and others that came before him. I respect him for that and I thank him for that joy that he has brought me.
quote:
Originally posted by kipperrI assumed you made your post defending stringfaker without knowing all of the facts, and it appears I was correct. His "Earl didn't play anything original" garbage is only the latest in his flamethrowing. Check his other posts in other threads. Earlier, he had started things off in another thread by proclaiming that Earl played out of tune most of the time. Without providing any proof. Thus my cheeky reference. He's proven himself a troll time and again, and that's not a charge I make lightly.
Actually, no. I don't think I've seen a single post by stringbreaker beyond this thread, but then again, I'm not sure I care enough to actually look. :-) Mr. Scruggs does not need to justify himself to anybody. Nor do I feel that we should feel so obliged. As Westvon so astutely points out, we often encounter a profound ignorance of history: the effort that was made to climb the mountain so the rest of us could see a glorious vista. That is stringbreaker's loss, not mine. I couldn't care less.
Maybe I am erring on the side of caution, but I am taking him at face value. I genuinely think that he makes a few good points. Has our passion for Mr. Scruggs musical contribution limited the banjo? To some degree, certainly. (Just compare the evolution of the banjo to the evolution of the guitar.)
I exchanged some messages with a guy that posted some Fleck, Trischka, Wernick, (Danny) Barnes videos from Grey Fox. He joked about the after the session, he wasn't able to buy a Danny Barnes CD, because the guy in front of him in line bought the last CD. The guy was Bill Keith. Go (new) banjo, go! I like to think that had Mr. Scruggs been there, he would have elbowed Mr. Keith out of the way. (If you haven't guessed, Danny Barnes is one of my banjo heroes. Nevertheless, it's his creativity that inspires me and not necessarily his picking.)
I do think that the vehemence with which people defend Mr. Scruggs is more than a little misplaced. Did he spring forth from nothing? Certainly not, but he definitely crystallized an idea, an approach. I haven't spent much time trying to figure out how "Earl did it", because that is not the lesson that I learned from Mr. Scruggs. Just like Mr. Scruggs, Mr. Reno and most importantly (to me) Mr. Monroe, I have tried my best to find my own way. This way is certainly rooted in tradition, but I simply feel that it would be a great disservice to all their efforts to let it rest where they left it. That simply isn't what Earl did. Man, he pushed it!
To that barbaric twang!
boyratchet - Posted - 10/16/2010: 19:29:26
Boy, I really have a problem with the length of my posts. Sorry. It's just that you folks really provoke me to meditate, ruminate and pontificate.
kipperr - Posted - 10/17/2010: 05:36:07
quote:
Originally posted by boyratchet
Boy, I really have a problem with the length of my posts. Sorry. It's just that you folks really provoke me to meditate, ruminate and pontificate.
No problem.
And if I knew what those last words meant, I might be offended. Or thanking you.
mike_cabinet - Posted - 10/17/2010: 15:15:43
If it wasn't for Earl I wouldn't be playing Scruggs style today. And that's the truth Thbhbhbhhbhb
Ronnie - Posted - 10/17/2010: 15:22:12
I would probably be playing banjo, but obviously not Scruggs style!!
BANJOBOB549 - Posted - 10/18/2010: 16:15:29
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Stewart
Ron Stewart Says:
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 @11:16:09 AM
First off, I don't usually post on these sort of topics, as they are ridiculous and just something to get everyone worked up, but this one has gotten me more than a little worked up! If I were to show this thread to JD, Sonny, and tons of other legendary banjo players, the comments would have to be all bleeped out! Everyone has their right to an opinion and what they like, as that is what makes the world go around, and what keeps music, as well as many things in life continually growing. BUT, and it is a BIG BUT, when you go beyond an opinion to say Earl Scruggs, or anyone else isn't worth a damn, you're treading on thin ice my friend! While you may not like Earl's playing, you maybe should get an eduacation on Earl's playing before going into this stuff. Does Earl say he invented three finger picking, NO! He will tell you about those very players you mentioned, but my friend, he doesn't play like them! Sure that's where he heard it, but he doesn't play the same way. Arrangements? Sure he heard this stuff, and his arrangements are similar, but is that stealing? I have been influenced by many a picker and use their licks, but am I stealing? HELL NO, I am doing something they did because I love it! I say that is paying respect to the one's that influenced you!!! Do me a favor and ask Scott Vestal about Earl's playing, or Bela, or Ron Block, or just about any banjo player on the planet! I have live stuff of Earl where he is playing a lick that Ron Block uses now that was recorded on radio in 1955, and way too many things to list! Every time I have thought Earl didn't use a lick, I get corrected by listening to a live recording and finding it somewhere. Now lets move to tone, timing, taste, and melody. Contrary to what some inexperienced folks would say, melody is f^&*ing hard to play, to make sound great by leaving meaningless notes out. You have to have great tone, timing for sure, and space between notes! Earl was and is a master of this! I am not saying do not stray from the melody, we all do and so did he. Now on to his tunes. I am guessing you are a composer of some sort, and have written many a tune/song with very original chord changes and very distinct melodies, in which no part of YOUR tune, song has any part of another tune! Somehow I doubt it, just by reading these posts, but I would really be glad to hear some of your tunes/songs so I could learn how to write without one chord change being like any other! The reallity of it is this, in the music we play there is what is called a scale in every chord, and that goes with chords too, so mathematically there are only so many combinations that can be done, granted that number is staggering, but I'll bet you it is hard for you or anyone else to find a song that doesn't have a little part of another in it somewhere, especially in bluegrass music! Listen to country music today, they all sound the same but I don't hear you bashing them, or Bill Monroe, who used a lot of other tunes to come up with his own tunes! But, he did it and they were great and that was what he heard. Let me ask you this, when is the last time you sat down and played Foggy Mountain Breakdown JUST LIKE EARL on the December 11th, 1949 version? I am NOT talking notes here, I am talking roll patterns and the whole enchilada. If you want to record it and give us a listen, I am sure it would be really EASY for you to do! Also, maybe Head Over Heals break, Dear Old Dixie, No Mother Or Dad, Doin' My Time, any of those will do! On another note, I don't hear you bashing JD Crowe, and he plays a LOT of Earl, always has and he is one guy I want to hear you walk up to and give him this speach of how Earl isn't all that! Maybe Sonny Osborne too! Hell let's you and I have a face to face about this subject sometime, as I would love to hear your pickin' and see first hand the "Improvements" you have come up with for the banjo world. I am sure you have some wonderful things you do on the banjo, and some wonderful examples of styles of banjo I would like, but saying Earl isn't all that, well that is another story. While I can respect anyone's opinion, I have to say that anyone that says Earl has done nothing but steal, be repititous, boring, etc.....well friend, you have a LOT to learn and probably not nearly enought time left on this Earth to learn it! I welcome your comments and any suggestions you might have for me!
RON STEWART
(Just another boring banjo player from the Scruggs school)
Ron Stewart Says:
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 @11:24:05 AM
By the way, the players you list as your favorites, Bill Keith, Bela Fleck, Scott Vestal are some of my dear friends and also some of my favorite players as well! Although I didn't hear you say Bill Keith just copied fiddle players in his banjo playing, or Scott Vestal copying some of Bela or vise versa. I guess that is different somehow. And to Bill, Scott and Bela, forgive me for using you all in this post, I love every one of you and you know it!
Ron Stewart Says:
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 @11:31:14 AM
Do you NOT have any other banjo player playing out of tune? I have heard all of them out of tune, me included! Maybe you should expand your collection of live/studio recordings! Or better yet, teach us your amazing way of never being out of tune on the banjo!
Ron Stewart Says:
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 @11:55:49 AM
Sorry, I am just reading more of yuour posts. So FMB, Pike County Breakdown, Flint Hill Special, Shuckin' The Corn, has no melody? I'm guessing Dear Old Dixie, Foggy Mountain Chimes, Earl's Breakdown, etc. also have no melody! Can you play those tunes? If so, how can you learn a tune without a melody? Many a banjo player has recorded/played those tunes since Earl first recorded them, how did they learrn them without a melody?
I'll go a step farther! Obviously you are NOT a fan of bluegrass fiddlers, because they all copied things from earlier fiddlers! Have you ever heard of Fiddlin' Arthur Smith? About 90% of the fiddlers we all love were influenced by this man, and copied some of his playing. I saw a little on the fiddle, and I have copied some of his licks, but I guess that makes me insignificant on fiddle as well. Oh, I guess Monroe played melody all of the time, oh wait, his tunes had no melody! I beleive Earl played with Monroe at one time. I guess he stole the break to Summertime Is Past And Gone from one of those players you mentioned, and didn't play the melody! I'm Going Back To Old Kentucky, he sure isn't playing the melody on that one! Molly and Tenbrooks is another he just couldn't find the meoldy to I guess!!! I know you don't care for Bluegrass Breakdown, because it has no melody(see Foggy Mountain Breakdown comment in your post), and it would appear to me you think he stole that break from say, Uncle Dave Macon, Snuffy Jenkins, or someone else he listened to, maybe StringBean! I love String and those guys btw, and I am NOT poking fun at their playing, they were all inovators and excellent musicians we all should thank everyday!!!
I am going to quit reading your posts, because I am getting more p&*$ed off by the minute!
I am sure you will delete my post, but if you're man enough to leave it, I would be very grateful! As for what he did after 1950......60 more years of playing, 60 more years of great recordings for us to listen to, 60 more years of him delivering banjo tunes and breaks and backup that we all love. By the way, not sure you have heard of a banjo tune called "Silver Eagle" he wrote after 1950, along with Earl's Brkdn, Flint Hill Special, Shuckin The Corn, etc. etc.
Ron, Had I known you were so upset over this thread, I would have given you a couple of Valiums today while we were together to calm the nerves,,,,,For those who don,t know Ron Stewart,,,Never Bash Earl Scruggs,,,Ron will eat your Lunch,,,,,,,,,,,,, Trust me,,,,,,,
larry p - Posted - 10/18/2010: 23:53:30
Boyratchet-am I ever thrilled to see you invoke the name of Joseph Spence! When I first heard Spence years ago, he turned my world upside down, much like hearing Earl's 'Foggy Mountain Banjo' did when I was a kid. He's AWESOME!! We've included several Spence pieces on a couple of our albums, 'A Glad Reunion Day', and 'I Just Want To Pick Like Earl'. Spence is one of the very few artist I've yet to encounter that embodies the same qualities in their music that Earl does in my opinion. Original, pure, inventive, innovative, complimentary, fun, melody oriented, tasteful, incredibly inspiring, challenging, and enjoyable.
mike gregory - Posted - 10/19/2010: 06:18:53
quote:
Originally posted by BANJOBOB549
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Stewart
Ron Stewart Says:
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 @11:16:09 AM
First off, I don't usually post on these sort of topics, as they are ridiculous and just something to get everyone worked up, but this one has gotten me more than a little worked up! If I were to show this thread to JD, Sonny, and tons of other legendary banjo players, the comments would have to be all bleeped out! Everyone has their right to an opinion and what they like, as that is what makes the world go around, and what keeps music, as well as many things in life continually growing. BUT, and it is a BIG BUT, when you go beyond an opinion to say Earl Scruggs, or anyone else isn't worth a damn, you're treading on thin ice my friend! While you may not like Earl's playing, you maybe should get an eduacation on Earl's playing before going into this stuff. Does Earl say he invented three finger picking, NO! He will tell you about those very players you mentioned, but my friend, he doesn't play like them! Sure that's where he heard it, but he doesn't play the same way. Arrangements? Sure he heard this stuff, and his arrangements are similar, but is that stealing? I have been influenced by many a picker and use their licks, but am I stealing? HELL NO, I am doing something they did because I love it! I say that is paying respect to the one's that influenced you!!! Do me a favor and ask Scott Vestal about Earl's playing, or Bela, or Ron Block, or just about any banjo player on the planet! I have live stuff of Earl where he is playing a lick that Ron Block uses now that was recorded on radio in 1955, and way too many things to list! Every time I have thought Earl didn't use a lick, I get corrected by listening to a live recording and finding it somewhere. Now lets move to tone, timing, taste, and melody. Contrary to what some inexperienced folks would say, melody is f^&*ing hard to play, to make sound great by leaving meaningless notes out. You have to have great tone, timing for sure, and space between notes! Earl was and is a master of this! I am not saying do not stray from the melody, we all do and so did he. Now on to his tunes. I am guessing you are a composer of some sort, and have written many a tune/song with very original chord changes and very distinct melodies, in which no part of YOUR tune, song has any part of another tune! Somehow I doubt it, just by reading these posts, but I would really be glad to hear some of your tunes/songs so I could learn how to write without one chord change being like any other! The reallity of it is this, in the music we play there is what is called a scale in every chord, and that goes with chords too, so mathematically there are only so many combinations that can be done, granted that number is staggering, but I'll bet you it is hard for you or anyone else to find a song that doesn't have a little part of another in it somewhere, especially in bluegrass music! Listen to country music today, they all sound the same but I don't hear you bashing them, or Bill Monroe, who used a lot of other tunes to come up with his own tunes! But, he did it and they were great and that was what he heard. Let me ask you this, when is the last time you sat down and played Foggy Mountain Breakdown JUST LIKE EARL on the December 11th, 1949 version? I am NOT talking notes here, I am talking roll patterns and the whole enchilada. If you want to record it and give us a listen, I am sure it would be really EASY for you to do! Also, maybe Head Over Heals break, Dear Old Dixie, No Mother Or Dad, Doin' My Time, any of those will do! On another note, I don't hear you bashing JD Crowe, and he plays a LOT of Earl, always has and he is one guy I want to hear you walk up to and give him this speach of how Earl isn't all that! Maybe Sonny Osborne too! Hell let's you and I have a face to face about this subject sometime, as I would love to hear your pickin' and see first hand the "Improvements" you have come up with for the banjo world. I am sure you have some wonderful things you do on the banjo, and some wonderful examples of styles of banjo I would like, but saying Earl isn't all that, well that is another story. While I can respect anyone's opinion, I have to say that anyone that says Earl has done nothing but steal, be repititous, boring, etc.....well friend, you have a LOT to learn and probably not nearly enought time left on this Earth to learn it! I welcome your comments and any suggestions you might have for me!
RON STEWART
(Just another boring banjo player from the Scruggs school)
Ron Stewart Says:
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 @11:24:05 AM
By the way, the players you list as your favorites, Bill Keith, Bela Fleck, Scott Vestal are some of my dear friends and also some of my favorite players as well! Although I didn't hear you say Bill Keith just copied fiddle players in his banjo playing, or Scott Vestal copying some of Bela or vise versa. I guess that is different somehow. And to Bill, Scott and Bela, forgive me for using you all in this post, I love every one of you and you know it!
Ron Stewart Says:
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 @11:31:14 AM
Do you NOT have any other banjo player playing out of tune? I have heard all of them out of tune, me included! Maybe you should expand your collection of live/studio recordings! Or better yet, teach us your amazing way of never being out of tune on the banjo!
Ron Stewart Says:
Tuesday, October 05, 2010 @11:55:49 AM
Sorry, I am just reading more of yuour posts. So FMB, Pike County Breakdown, Flint Hill Special, Shuckin' The Corn, has no melody? I'm guessing Dear Old Dixie, Foggy Mountain Chimes, Earl's Breakdown, etc. also have no melody! Can you play those tunes? If so, how can you learn a tune without a melody? Many a banjo player has recorded/played those tunes since Earl first recorded them, how did they learrn them without a melody?
I'll go a step farther! Obviously you are NOT a fan of bluegrass fiddlers, because they all copied things from earlier fiddlers! Have you ever heard of Fiddlin' Arthur Smith? About 90% of the fiddlers we all love were influenced by this man, and copied some of his playing. I saw a little on the fiddle, and I have copied some of his licks, but I guess that makes me insignificant on fiddle as well. Oh, I guess Monroe played melody all of the time, oh wait, his tunes had no melody! I beleive Earl played with Monroe at one time. I guess he stole the break to Summertime Is Past And Gone from one of those players you mentioned, and didn't play the melody! I'm Going Back To Old Kentucky, he sure isn't playing the melody on that one! Molly and Tenbrooks is another he just couldn't find the meoldy to I guess!!! I know you don't care for Bluegrass Breakdown, because it has no melody(see Foggy Mountain Breakdown comment in your post), and it would appear to me you think he stole that break from say, Uncle Dave Macon, Snuffy Jenkins, or someone else he listened to, maybe StringBean! I love String and those guys btw, and I am NOT poking fun at their playing, they were all inovators and excellent musicians we all should thank everyday!!!
I am going to quit reading your posts, because I am getting more p&*$ed off by the minute!
I am sure you will delete my post, but if you're man enough to leave it, I would be very grateful! As for what he did after 1950......60 more years of playing, 60 more years of great recordings for us to listen to, 60 more years of him delivering banjo tunes and breaks and backup that we all love. By the way, not sure you have heard of a banjo tune called "Silver Eagle" he wrote after 1950, along with Earl's Brkdn, Flint Hill Special, Shuckin The Corn, etc. etc.
Ron, Had I known you were so upset over this thread, I would have given you a couple of Valiums today while we were together to calm the nerves,,,,,For those who don,t know Ron Stewart,,,Never Bash Earl Scruggs,,,Ron will eat your Lunch,,,,,,,,,,,,, Trust me,,,,,,,
If Ron Stewart says it about Earl and the Banjo, that's good enough for me.
stringbreaker - Posted - 11/06/2010: 17:01:12
quote:
Originally posted by Brett
Bless those who don't learn "Scruggs style", as they have a hard time fitting into any jam style circumstances and that is where the fun really is. Without that skill mix of scruggs licks and an ear, all you can do is stand on the periphery of a great jam and hope someone will ask to hear Weinerface Hornpipe in open F so you can demonstrate your skill mix of memorized melodic banjo from some 70's instruction manual......Brett.
the banjo isnt only used in bluegrass. i participate in music thats not bluegrass with my banjo.
jack crowder - Posted - 11/06/2010: 18:03:39
If we ignore stringbreaker, do you think he'll just go away?
Ronnie - Posted - 11/06/2010: 18:19:42
I don't play much traditional bluegrass anymore either, but have a strong background in "Scruggs style"
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 11/06/2010: 19:10:07
Is it just me or does anyone else notice a similarity between this thread and the movies Friday the 13th featuring Jason? 
Ken
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 11/07/2010: 14:38:51
quote:
Originally posted by banjotef
Concur, pickngrin.
Your girl ignores you too?
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 11/07/2010: 14:42:57
quote:
Originally posted by 1935tb-11
earl is to banjo what palmer is to golf,
or ruth is to baseball or,
unitas is to football or,
pele' is to soccer or
itzhak perlman is to violin.
he is the alpha dog to the way 99.99% of us veiw the banjo
PERIOD! ! ! ! ! ! !
terry m
n.c.
I would say rather Paganini to violin. Itzhak Perlman is a great violinist indeed, but maybe not one of the great historical innovators.
(and that's not bashing Maestro Perlman)
Edited by - Klondike Waldo on 11/07/2010 14:52:00
1935tb-11 - Posted - 11/07/2010: 14:55:55
quote:
Originally posted by Klondike Waldo
quote:
Originally posted by 1935tb-11
earl is to banjo what palmer is to golf,
or ruth is to baseball or,
unitas is to football or,
pele' is to soccer or
itzhak perlman is to violin.
he is the alpha dog to the way 99.99% of us veiw the banjo
PERIOD! ! ! ! ! ! !
terry m
n.c.
I would say rather Paganini to violin. Pearlman is a great violinist indeed, but maybe not one of the great historical innovators.
============================================
touche' waldo,, paganini is a better example. i had just seen a special the night before and perlman was on it so he
was the first that came into my mind.
but i would still like to achieve the same level on the banjo
that perlman has on the violin.
terry m
n.c.
stringbreaker - Posted - 11/07/2010: 18:02:28
quote:
Originally posted by jack crowder
If we ignore stringbreaker, do you think he'll just go away?
what part dont you agree with?
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 11/07/2010: 19:29:06
quote:
Originally posted by stringbreaker
quote:
Originally posted by jack crowder
If we ignore stringbreaker, do you think he'll just go away?
what part dont you agree with?
"Come into my house said the spider to the fly".
Ronnie - Posted - 11/08/2010: 10:09:48
Sometime in the early 1960's I was talking with Earl backstage at a local venue. He asked what sort of banjo I played. I answered "Kay" He told me I needed a better banjo and that he had a couple he didn't play very much. He invited me to his house to check them out. Randy and I pulled 2 prewar Gibsons 1932 and 1934 ( I don't remember what series) out from under Earl's bed. ( Earl was out fishing at Percy Priest Lake at the time) I was offered my choice for $600 cash. Wish I had had the money. I doubt if the offer still stands. LOL
Yeah, I guess that might sound like a tall tale to some of you!!
Edited by - Ronnie on 11/08/2010 10:12:52
ambpicker - Posted - 11/08/2010: 12:18:07
The comparison of Earl with Arnold Palmer, Babe Ruth, and the other greats still come up short.
Over time, improvements in technique, equipment, training methods, etc., others that followed these individuals hit more homeruns, golf scores improved, and that particular sport would evolve to a higher plateau.
There are and have been a number of fabulous 3-finger style banjo players.
In my heart, I don't think any have risen to a higher plateau than Earl.
What a cool story. Earl out fishing. I think I saw a picture of him and Bill Keith sitting in a boat somewhere.
stringbreaker - Posted - 11/08/2010: 12:49:52
noone has risen to the plateau? bela fleck, bill keith, vestal. there are hundreds of them have hit more homeruns than earl.
lets hear earl play a classical or jazz tune that his 10 licks wont work on.
Edited by - stringbreaker on 11/08/2010 12:50:22
ambpicker - Posted - 11/08/2010: 13:27:48
10 licks ??? 
WOW
mikey5string - Posted - 11/08/2010: 13:45:47
quote:
Originally posted by stringbreaker
noone has risen to the plateau? bela fleck, bill keith, vestal. there are hundreds of them have hit more homeruns than earl.
lets hear earl play a classical or jazz tune that his 10 licks wont work on.
yeah....but....
earl didnt play jazz or classical. he played bluegrass.
cant you understand that even if earl wasnt the best, was always out of tune, stole his style from snuffy, doc, roscoe, skeeter, don, whoever, played the same licks, couldnt play like al dimeola, didnt know a diminished scale, never played in Eb.....
HE STILL REFINED, DEVELOPED & BROUGHT HIS THREE FINGER STYLE TO A WORLD AUDIENCE AND WAS UNDOUBTABLY ONE OF, IF NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT BANJO PLAYER OF THE LAST CENTURY.
there is nothing else to it. you think he sucks? fine. hes not my favorite banjo player either (i dont think he sucks though) you cannot question his place in the development of the 5-string banjo.
earls major advancment was taking a local two/three finger banjo style and developing it into a cohesive style and applying that style to a style of music, which was also "new". all of this happened at a perfect point in history. with radio and widespread music distribution in their early years. there is a lot to why earl is held in the regard that he is, its more than just him playing rolls....more than even banjo. it was a very different time back then.
it all happened at the perfect time. if it were someone else, say snuffy jenkins... would you be here saying that snuffy jenkins sucked and he wasnt nearly as good as earl scruggs? probably.
why do you think people went crazy when earl took a break? listen to some old live recordings. people went nuts. i dont think its because he was playing the same old way the audience had heard their uncle joe play it, maybe they thought he was handsome?
IMO, earl is not the best banjo player ever. not even the best scruggs player, oddly enough.
but he is responsible for the fact that there are better players than him.
Edited by - mikey5string on 11/08/2010 13:49:24
McUtsi - Posted - 11/08/2010: 13:47:32
Perpetuating this bum trip will not grow a thing...please..?..McUtsi
dmiller - Posted - 11/08/2010: 13:56:01
Previous post of mine deleted in deference to McUtsi. 
ambpicker - Posted - 11/08/2010: 14:19:49
I would do it too, but I'm trying to get to 3000
dmiller - Posted - 11/08/2010: 14:27:26
quote:
Originally posted by ambpicker
I would do it too, but I'm trying to get to 3000
Try the game threads!
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