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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/184166/6
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XXXris - Posted - 10/27/2010: 18:48:54
Ahh, this is good. I was away for a while so missed the last couple of postings. Now we are getting to the part where things start going insane. I would never be brave enough to make necks, and then toss them outside in the sun. Of course I like the straight-ahead luthier material here, but I'll admit I am also waiting for something to get broken and then reassembled.....
DanKnowles - Posted - 10/29/2010: 05:42:12
Trisha, Chris and everyone else,
I'm sorry for my absence from these posts, many other projects have kept me away and I have missed it. But now I'm back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DanKnowles - Posted - 10/29/2010: 07:14:24
BRACKET SHOES 1
Oh but it is good to be back working on these 1850's instruments. So today in this installment I'll be starting to make those way to cool star shaped bracket shoes.
First the basic pattern has to be created. For this I used my 1850's version of Correl Draw 12 to create a star shaped pattern that fits the average dimension of the original. Each of the originals was hand cut and the size varried shoe to shoe so I'll make a pattern and allow my hand work to vary size and shape slightly.
Here the pattern is being cut from the printed paper pattern.
Cyno (super glue) is used to glue the pattern to the brass. I'll be cutting the first shoe out of my brass stock and this one (if all works out will become my pattern for the rest of the shoes.

Using a nearly worn out blade on my bandsaw I cut out the pattern shoe.


Please note the backer board or zero clearance plate. This is cut from an old scrap of hard board. It is a finger saver when cutting small pieces. Without it the saw can snatch a piece and pull a finger in for a very quick bite!
DEmery - Posted - 10/29/2010: 07:43:24
Dan that is going to make a great look'en shoe for the 1850. I went back to the original and took a close look. I really like the style and know by the it soaks in your time machine...it will look and smell old. David E.
Ronnie - Posted - 10/29/2010: 07:52:19
I hope the finished product will show up at John's house next summer. I would live to see it in person!!
Jonnycake White - Posted - 10/29/2010: 09:53:23
Hey Dan, if you've got a laser printer or a copier, you ought to try transferring the pattern to brass instead of gluing it with CA. This can be done by holding the pattern face down on the brass and rubbing it with a solvent such as acetone or brake cleaner. I found it's best to have a clean but not buffed surface - sanding to 600 or 800 grit should work ok. I just get tired of the paper pattern peeling off half-way through sawing out a piece. 'course I use a jeweller's saw, so the upstroke is probably a factor you don't have to deal with if you use a band saw. Anyway, the pattern transfer is a nice way to mark brass or wood (or whatever) for cutting, engraving, etc.
Tackhead - Posted - 10/29/2010: 10:07:05
quote:Just so I get this--the toner from the image on the paper transfers to the metal?
Originally posted by Jonnycake White
Hey Dan, if you've got a laser printer or a copier, you ought to try transferring the pattern to brass instead of gluing it with CA. This can be done by holding the pattern face down on the brass and rubbing it with a solvent such as acetone or brake cleaner. I found it's best to have a clean but not buffed surface - sanding to 600 or 800 grit should work ok. I just get tired of the paper pattern peeling off half-way through sawing out a piece. 'course I use a jeweller's saw, so the upstroke is probably a factor you don't have to deal with if you use a band saw. Anyway, the pattern transfer is a nice way to mark brass or wood (or whatever) for cutting, engraving, etc.
Jonnycake White - Posted - 10/29/2010: 11:07:39
quote:
Originally posted by Tackheadquote:Just so I get this--the toner from the image on the paper transfers to the metal?
Originally posted by Jonnycake White
Hey Dan, if you've got a laser printer or a copier, you ought to try transferring the pattern to brass instead of gluing it with CA. This can be done by holding the pattern face down on the brass and rubbing it with a solvent such as acetone or brake cleaner. I found it's best to have a clean but not buffed surface - sanding to 600 or 800 grit should work ok. I just get tired of the paper pattern peeling off half-way through sawing out a piece. 'course I use a jeweller's saw, so the upstroke is probably a factor you don't have to deal with if you use a band saw. Anyway, the pattern transfer is a nice way to mark brass or wood (or whatever) for cutting, engraving, etc.
~John
trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/29/2010: 11:45:00
Hmmm...well!
I imagine cutting brass using a blade designed for wood would be interesting...and very much require a zero-clearance backer. Even then, I bet it jumps and barks!
The old Sears 'n' Sawbuck bandsaw Dad had was easily converted to metal-cutting by a belt-reduction (which we made from old pulleys and blocks, etc.). We had two belts, one for wood (direct-drive), one for metal (thru the reduction drive) and blades for each. Easy to switch from one to the other. If Dad caught me cutting metal with one of his wood blades...![]()
![]()
You going to braze the brackets together? I disremember the originals, I thought they was cast. I guess I could go look up the original thread! ![]()
===Marc
DanKnowles - Posted - 10/30/2010: 13:07:13
David,
Thanks, I hope to screw it up corre3ctly.
Ronnie,
One will if I keep it or if David is able to make it.
Jon,
Thanks for the great idea, I might try that on pearl sometime.
Marc,
That is a real fine toothed saw blade. It is noisy but with the backer I have no problems.
The one my dad busted my but for was trying to sharpen a pine wood knife on his grinder, I think I still have the mark...
DanKnowles - Posted - 11/01/2010: 18:08:28
SHAPIN' UP & LAYIN' OUT
Back again finishing up the star pattern bracket, I finish bringing it to shape by locking it into my handy dandy trusty luthiers vice and working it thoroughly over slicking it up, removing all of the saw kirf marks from all of the edges by sawing back and forth with a small Nicholson needle file.
I just wondered how long a run-on sentence I could create before I ran out of steam.



The slicked up pattern is then laid on a sheet of brass and scribed and scribed and scribed.


DanKnowles - Posted - 11/01/2010: 19:14:49
NEW BANJO
Here is a new banjo that I recently completed for a client from Nashville Orvil Orr. He is a lawyer and wanted tis instrument to be called Scales of Justice. The request was for a “good banjo” that featured an image of the scales of justice. So with this in mind I put this one together.

“Scales” features :
nicely figured 3 piece silver maple and ebony neck
4 ply backstrap
Leaf heel carving
Custom inlay
1/2” thick rim
Bill Rickard White Ladie tone ring and bracket shoes
Mastertone style brackets
Gotoh tuning machines



Orvil with his new "Scales of Justice", Knowles banjo. 
Edited by - DanKnowles on 11/01/2010 19:20:13
rubicon - Posted - 11/01/2010: 20:06:05
Dan that scales of justice banjo has one beautiful neck stunning !!
omiimii - Posted - 11/02/2010: 19:14:03
quote:
Originally posted by Steven M
Absolutely love the tunnelled 5th!
DanKnowles - Posted - 11/02/2010: 19:30:04
Tim & Steven,
Thanks for your compliments, I'm glad you like it.
Allen,
Thanks for your compliments also. Don't worry at all about your taste, it doesn't in any way make you a snob. Some people are more comfortable with regular 5th. tuners and some are not. I build banjos both ways and each has its challenges both in building and design. Funny though, then night before I put this instrument together I was going over in my mind the things I needed to do and I thought , "Oh no, I didn't drill for the 5th. before finishing, I'll have to be sooooo careful!" I felt real smart when I remembered the tunneled 5th.
DanKnowles - Posted - 11/04/2010: 06:54:39
SAWIN’ UM OUT
Today I’ll be cutting the star shaped backer plate for the bracket shoes for our 1850’s banjo. There are multiple was to do this job including using a jewelers saw or perhaps a Dremel with cut off wheels, I’ll be using my band saw.
I have laid out around 30 backers on this piece of brass plate, I’ll only show cutting one out though.


Six of them ready for the next step.
Slingerland - Posted - 11/04/2010: 17:32:56
Dan-
"Scales" looks great. Very tasteful inlay/engraving and I love the tunneled 5th string.
muleskinner63 - Posted - 11/04/2010: 17:44:13
Hi Dan looking good , can`t wait to next step, take care friend and hope to see you soon . Ron
dbrooks - Posted - 11/04/2010: 18:06:34
It's great to see your work that based in different centuries, Dan. The Scales of Justice banjo is a real winner in design and execution. I too like the tunneled 5th string. And then the 1850 Jacobs-based banjo is a revelation at every step in the process, and it too reveals truly fine design and execution.
David
DanKnowles - Posted - 11/05/2010: 17:29:03
Paul, Ron & David,
Thanks a bunch. I'm glad y'all like this. It is such fun showing my work to such appreciative folks.
DanKnowles - Posted - 11/05/2010: 18:14:36
SUNTANNING THE BRACKET HOLES
(layin' 'um out)
Before I head off into this post I'd like to tell you of a very cool old banj that wondered into my shop (via the U S Post Office) a couple of days ago.
This is a beautifully made Dayton banjo uke ca. 1920's. It came from our buddy Slingerland who is compiling information on these great instruments. Apparently these folks made Banjos in all configurations, 5 string, 4 string, banjo mandolins and banjo guitars and mandolins with a second resonating chamber. The workmanship throughout is impeccable. Most of the hardware appears to be unique to this instrument brand. I may post more about this little beauty later.
The time has come to finish preparing the rim so I can put the banjo together. Here is how I lay out for the bracket shoe drilling. I have used many different techniques including making dedicated drilling fixtures, this seams to work out best when I am making unique bracket spacings. The six shoes will be placed exactly in the same locations as the original. This is how I go about laying out these locations. Although it is not shown here, the drawing is laying on my bench , very close for quick and easy referencing.
First the basic placement of the holes are marked. They are around two inches from the top of the rim.
Masking tape is placed around the rim at this depth.
The depth is re established on the tape..
The tape is marked to depth, all the way around and on the tape. Then a cloth measuring tape is taped to the rim. The placement of each shoe and the dowel stick ins marked from the cloth tape.
The depth of the dowel stick is marked.
Sides are squared.
Here it is….
DEmery - Posted - 11/05/2010: 18:19:59
Dan, could this possibly be my rim you are marking up? David E.
Slingerland - Posted - 11/05/2010: 18:40:14
Thanks for the plug, Dan! I hope to see a Dayton restoration thread as your time allows it.
PS those rims look mighty nice!![]()
DanKnowles - Posted - 11/05/2010: 19:41:19
David,
It might be............................................
Paul,
That might be fun doing a thread on the Dayton.
Slingerland - Posted - 11/05/2010: 19:59:36
Dan-maybe it wouldn't warrant a whole thread, but maybe part of this one.
rubicon - Posted - 11/17/2010: 03:17:32
I agree I hope all is well with you Dan I check the listing everyday to see if you have posted .It's funny like reading a great novel and getting to the best part and the pages are missing lol
flatfootjohnny - Posted - 11/17/2010: 13:19:40
Wow im so pleased to have found this forum. Iv been dabbling making banjos for about a year now (Ive made 1 gourd banjo, 1 tack head and 2 canjos) and every one i use a slightly different technique depending on new tools and improved skills - i too try to use mostly hand tools... they're quieter. Fascinating, informative and reasurring... cant wait for the next installment
DanKnowles - Posted - 11/22/2010: 20:00:09
BACK
Well friends after a couple week sabbatical from BHO... I'm back. Thanks for all of you kind enquireries. All is well here at Knowles String Instruments. Yes patina has been gathering on the new 1850's, Ill pass along some photos of that in a day or two.
Now.....
J-HOOK TIME
Tonight I start the making of the J-hooks, brackets, strainers or whatever you wish to call them. These are a fun make. Although I be making a whole wad of these things, here I'll just show you the first 6 going through. These are for the prototype for David Emery's banjo.
Here are three rods of the material I'll be using. It is brass rod that is about .163 thick.
First I stick the rod in my vice, not my vise and certainly not versa... Then lay out the length. I'm marking it with an ultra fine permanent marker. This doesn't have to be perfect good and just close.
Using a hacksaw they are cut to length.

Here is the batch of them.
I got to show this . A friend of mine salvaged from a junk yard this old machine for cutting threads. He rebuilt it, painted and then sold it to me. Not all of it is here but for my purposes it works great! The center shaft not only goes around, but it moves back and forth allowing the clutch to contact one of the wheels at a time. Each of these wheels spins in an opposite direction changing the spinning direction of the clutch. Pressure the work in and it cuts threads, pressure away and out and The work is released. Nifty!

All threaded.
I'm no9t sure what happened to these photos in my pre-edited post...but they are here now. Dan
Edited by - DanKnowles on 11/24/2010 07:16:26
DanKnowles - Posted - 11/24/2010: 06:58:50
BENDING TYME
What an interesting day today has been. Along with the usual work of building and repairing I started out a new guitar building student. He has wonderful hand tool skills and uses a hand plane like he was born to it. In a couple of hours we were able to mill and joint a top set, mill and thickness a back and side set. Many students come to me to develop their tool skills, which is great, but as an instructor it is always wonderful to be able to work with someone who is already an advanced woodworker.
Back to the 1850's J-hook making.
In this post I'll show a rather primitive but effective way of bending these hooks.
I have several vices (not vises although I have my share of these), among them is this old wheel wrights vice I'm told that it is from around the age of our original banjo. I clamp the theaded hook in this vice leaving around 1/4 " exposed. 
Using a large ball-peen hammer I bend the top over. Then I raise it up another 1/4 inch in the vice and continue fully bending it over.

As you might guess, the abuse of the hammer and the pinching of the vice leaves tracks. Using a file I remove most of these.


Lastly I begin the aging process with a small jewelers chasing hammer. It leaves some delicate marks.

DanKnowles - Posted - 11/24/2010: 07:10:12
T-HOOP
Here is how the tension hoops looked today. Lots of rust and pitting, just like I need them to be.
Rowland - Posted - 11/24/2010: 08:35:15
Great to have you back Dan. I was beginning to think nobody was going to post your bail . . . ha ha.
I love that threader. I rebuild Model A Ford Engines as a side line and have a shop full of machines- many of them antiques. My favorite is a 1936 Ammco rod lathe. It's just as clever as your threader. There sure have been some smart fellers . . .
Jonnycake White - Posted - 11/24/2010: 10:36:38
Say, Dan, don't you have to anneal that brass when you bend the hooks? Last (and first) time I made some they just broke off if I didn't anneal the brass. Maybe I was bending them tighter than yours.
DanKnowles - Posted - 11/24/2010: 15:30:36
AGING
Now is the fun stuff… I get to make these things look old! Considering that sometimes I look in the mirror and feel this way, making the J-hooks look like I feel might not be too hard! Anyway here we go…
Here are the hooks all ready to go.
I use a oxidizing agent from Rio Grande called Midas that works quite well and is the loveliest blue.
It’s tough, just stick the work in this concoction and almost immediately the change begins.


Next a firm rubbing on a paper towel knocks back some of the color.

Now the hook is sanded with 2000 grit sandpaper.

Back in the bath for another dunk.
More rubbing.
Complete
DEmery - Posted - 11/24/2010: 18:37:10
dan the hooks look absolutely great. i am really glad to see you posting again. it had become a daily habit. david e.
Trisha S - Posted - 11/24/2010: 22:01:53
After checking some of your original posts Dan, I'd say the oxidization was an excellent match to the original patina. The dings are a nice touch reflecting attention to detail. I imagine you've looked at the instrument under a magnifying glass early on to help guide your process.
I bet those bracket shoes were tough. Ten edges to each five pointed star; six bracket shoes per rim... six banjos under construction. I know... don't remind me. But this all looks to be a labor of love. ~ Trish
DanKnowles - Posted - 11/25/2010: 15:28:41
HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYBODY!!!!!
I hope each of yours has been as wonderful as mine.
Rowland,
Boy I only wish you had been available one week ago. Fortunately for me the ACLU was there to post my Bail ( perhaps it was the YMCA, the CIA or NIH I'm not sure). Lots of folks don't realize how creative our aunts sisters really were.
Jon,
There was no heat needed to bend these. I suppose the hardness of the metal makes the difference.
David,
I'm glad to be back.
Trisch,
Thaks. You are right. Projects like this are because I love to do this. Although I charge to make these, the charge in no way reflects the true time spent on each instrument.
dubtom - Posted - 11/25/2010: 16:10:35
Glad your back Dan. I'm mighty impressed with that thread machine, I have a lathe that will turn at basically zero speed up,I wonder would threading be possible on it,mmmm, you've got me thinking now.
TrainmanCSZ4UP - Posted - 11/25/2010: 18:04:18
quote:My guess is it wouldn't. When you tap a piece of metal you turn it around a few times than you go back the other way on the threads you just made. However if you put the lathe n reverse every few turns it might work.
Originally posted by dubtom
Glad your back Dan. I'm mighty impressed with that thread machine, I have a lathe that will turn at basically zero speed up,I wonder would threading be possible on it,mmmm, you've got me thinking now.
DanKnowles - Posted - 11/25/2010: 19:47:54
FINISH LINE #1
on the neck that is
Well folks tonight we start down the road to finishing the neck for this banjo.
The steps will go (hopefully) like this.
1. Sanding
2. Bleaching
3. Sanding
4. Burnish
5. sizing
6.sanding some more.
7. Burnish some more
8. Spirit varnishing
9. Distressing (There is quite a bunch of steps to this)
First off I'll do a bit of sanding. This is no ones favorite step, but one of the most important. My good buddy Tim May and I were talking one time and he said, "Wouldn't it be wonderful to have some little guy who would come in and do all the sanding?"
I've gotten where I don't mind sanding so much any more, It seams meditative somehow.
I scrape the wood whenever possible to a good finish, but this Spanish cedar just acts funky so sanding is my choice. I start with 120 grit then go to 220, 400 and finish with 600. The stuff I use for necks is cloth backed and so conforms to the shape of the neck quite well. If you watch how I use the sanding cloth you will notice how I keep from getting ridges.

Here I am filing the 5th. string bump. I will use several grades of files to do this.

Now sanding.
Here using Oxalic Acid I start the wood bleaching.

After the bleaching the wood has to dry.
Here it is dry and awaiting the next steps. Notice the color change.
BNJOMAKR - Posted - 11/26/2010: 02:56:43
quote:
"Wouldn't it be wonderful to have some little guy who would come in and do all the sanding?"
rfwillis - Posted - 11/26/2010: 04:03:09
Pardon my ignorance but can someone please tell me why the bleaching is done. Is it a Cedar thing?
jbalch - Posted - 11/26/2010: 13:43:49
I bet that is the first step of Dan's "distressing" the wood. There is plenty more to come. When he is done, that neck will really look old.
Edited by - jbalch on 11/26/2010 13:44:46
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