Rowland - Posted - 09/30/2010:  08:31:49

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Hey Dan, great stuff.
Did the nail and the nail hole on the band become part of the weldment ?
By the way beating on the band to weld it would make it grow but when it cooled down it shrunk. If you had a band already done that was a little too big you could heat it up and cool it down to shrink it some.

mojo_monk - Posted - 09/30/2010:  09:57:45

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Another great ride, Dan. Thanks for bringing us along

Quick question: Maybe I missed it, but what type of material are you using for the tension hoop???



-Sean
2ftlbanjer.wordpress.com/

DanKnowles - Posted - 09/30/2010:  17:33:20

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Rowland,
Yes the nail holes became just part of the weld. On most the nail was flattened and eventually just broke off.

Sean,
J used cold roll steel.

DanKnowles - Posted - 09/30/2010:  18:48:24

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MORE NECK WORK

Tonight we have some more photos of the necks as they are working through. The tension hoops are moldering and rusting away in their resonator, the water is beginning to look quite brown and rusty. I keep getting tempted to pull the hoops from their bath just to take a good look at them. I'm resisting the urge though.

Anyway on to the photos....

Here I'm laying out yet another Jacob's on the walnut. This is so I can true up an already cutout blank.



Truing the sides of the peghead...



And the face...



Lastly I'm standing with all seven of the necks, six are trued and ready to carve and the one closest to me is for David Emery (see David I'm keepin' it close!). Soon we'll carve the rest.

---

Edited by - DanKnowles on 09/30/2010 18:52:10

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/01/2010:  17:03:02

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HOW MUCH OLDER CAN THEY GET?

Today I worked some on the t-hoops. I'm trying to get that look and feel of old metal. They have spent the last four days in their salt bath. Periodically I've poured the brine over the hoops and salt. As the days have passed the brine has gaided a nice rusty color,





Yesterday I added some acid to to the salt bath to further pit the steel.

After overnight in the brine/acid mixture I pulled the hoops out. The acid has stripped the rust and has pitted the surface.





Next I grabbed up the torch and began to burn a hoop.



After heating the surface thoroughly, I add a bit of light oil, not everywhere just here and there.



And then put the fire to it. I'm burning ALL of the oil off. This requires a bit of practice, to long or too short in the fire and the look is not achieved.





Then back in the brine. Now it's time for rust!

Slingerland - Posted - 10/01/2010:  19:11:57

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Your attention to detail is unprecedented. I think you should reproduce your threads in some sort of tangible product---a book. I know I would buy it. I like your multi-purposing of a resonator.

Thanks again!

SPLogDog - Posted - 10/01/2010:  21:15:56

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quote:

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Originally posted by Slingerland

Your attention to detail is unprecedented. I think you should reproduce your threads in some sort of tangible product---a book. I know I would buy it. I like your multi-purposing of a resonator.

Thanks again!

---

Seconded. That tension hoop turned out fantastic.

BNJOMAKR - Posted - 10/02/2010:  05:39:42

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Anybody can make old look new, but it takes a skilled craftsman to make new look old! Maybe you should work for Gibson and make "stressed" banjos, and then they could sell them as prewar reproductions and triple the price!

DEmery - Posted - 10/02/2010:  06:57:40

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For those wowed by Dan's ability to age a banjo - go to his photos and look at the Abe Lincoln banjo. There is a funny story about that banjo being seen by an expert that was jaw dropped thinking it was an original piece from the 1840's. I am the proud holder of ole' Abe these days and it hangs on my wall here in St. Augustine. Soon I get to enjoy Dan's first 1850 Jacobs along with several other original design banjos he has built for me over the years. David E.

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/03/2010:  13:10:32

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Slingerland, Will & Marvin,
I thank you for your kind comments ans suggestions. I have thought about release some of these in book form.

David,
I really appreciate your support and encouragement. It has been our partnership & friendship that has created some if the best my best work, including this Jacobs... I hope!

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/06/2010:  16:39:51

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DRILLING FOR DOWEL STICKS!

I've been letting the necks and rims kind of molder away for a while. I don't really like working with something recently glued, Instead I prefer to allow the wood to rest between processes... let it get used to it's new configuration.

With that excuse out of the way...

I've been watching my t-hoops rust they are just about there.

Anyhow I guess I get on to today's posts subject. Drilling the necks for dowel sticks.

Before I get too far into this I need to make a disclaimer. The way I am drilling these is not the way that I usually perform this operation. I realize that in 1850 they probably had drill presses or powered lathes to do this with. I just wanted to do it like this. I wanted to prove that I could do it this a-way.

Here I'm laying out the drilling center.



Me and the little ole' eggbeater drill went to work.



I changed to a paddle bit the other one whooped me!



The first hole....





The whole passel of them...

DEmery - Posted - 10/06/2010:  18:15:11

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Excellent holes Dan. I wouldn't have expected less of a hole drilling effort from your shop. I look forward to seeing the moldering rims and assorted moldering parts soon...along with pitted, old t-hoops from the salt bath. I was looking at the original metal parts on the Jacobs last night and compared it to the coloration of t-rims from the most recent photos of your hoops. They really do look right. David E.

Jonnycake White - Posted - 10/07/2010:  08:36:51

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Dan, you might want to look for a brace to use with that auger bit rather than an eggbeater drill. Augers require torque not RPM's.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brace_(tool)

trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/07/2010:  15:15:16

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Holey necks!

Say, Dan, I hope you've seen Ed Britt's advert for the Nashville Banjo Collector's Gathering next month. I bet they'd love to see one of these (well, I certainly would!).

===Marc

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/09/2010:  05:13:33

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David,
Thank you.
Jon,
You are so right. I don't havea brace to work with so.... still it seamed to work alright and it was reall kind of fun to do.

Marc.
No I haven't seen the banjo gathering info... are you going?

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/09/2010:  05:27:00

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BTW I anyone is near Midway, KY (Near Murray, KY) My son and I will be performing for the CLUCKIN" & PLUCKIN" festival, our show is 3;30-4:30.

A shout out goes to Tom and his lovely wife Susan who spent the past couple of days at the shop, pickin', sight seeing and working on Orpheus, Toms new 9 string banjo!

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/09/2010:  05:36:57

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DOWEL...
my style


Breaking News!!!
The dowel sticks were cut out of both Spanish Cedar and walnut using the bandsaw. The band saw I believe was patented in 1803....

Then the sticks were trued using handplanes.





Then off to the lathe. I use a Atlas miniature machinist lathe, it is a real nice machine that I've had for a long time. Here I'm marking the length of the tennon.



And the centers...



Now to the turning...







And there it is...

trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/09/2010:  09:10:15

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quote:

---

Originally posted by DanKnowles

Marc.
No I haven't seen the banjo gathering info... are you going?

---

Absolutely! Go here for Ed's announcement: banjohangout.org/topic/188430

Tad on the expensive side, but I've been wanting to attend one of these for years.

===Marc

PS, My Dad had one of those little Atlas lathes in the garage when I was growing up. Ours was too short (10" bed) to do dowelsticks but we were doing mostly metal-work (hot-rods) then anyway.

---

Edited by - trapdoor2 on 10/09/2010 09:13:01

muleskinner63 - Posted - 10/09/2010:  09:46:43

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Hi Dan looking good . I had a great time at the shop and met some great people ,MR. Tom and Mrs. Susan it was a pure joy to play with you all and talk about the project`s you both are doing . Mattie Mae singing`s so loud now the neighbor`s complaned .but it was in a good way ,they asked why did you stop .LOL I thank you so much for Mattie she mean`s the world to me . Mr.Tom and Mrs. Susan i pray a safe trip home for you and for a great time i got spend with you all. I will see you soon Dan and by the way ( I`d wear a blue hat when flyin my steam powered areoplane) .

XXXris - Posted - 10/09/2010:  18:29:06

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Hi Dan:

I have one curiosity: When you are making the hole in the neck for the dowel rod, and then making the tenon itself, how do you figure the angle of them? Doesn't the hole in the neck need to be at a particular angle, so that the action of the banjo will turn out correctly?

I'm enjoying the thread, keep up the good work!

Chris

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/10/2010:  16:12:17

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Marc,
Thanks for the heads up on the gathering. I too live about 2 hours away but tomorrow I'll start putting all my ducks in a row and attempt to make it also.

Ron,
I'm glad you made it over from Dover....It was such a nice visit. It is always wonderful to see great friends and you sure count as one of the best!

Chris
I will try to answer your question with my next post... I hope!!!!

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/10/2010:  16:47:29

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FIGURIN' ER OUT AN TRUIN' ER UP

Chris had a question that I hope to answer in this post... How did I know what angle to drill them at? Answer: by guess and by gosh Chris, I eyeballed 'um best I could.

Back years ago I was working as a painter/ carpenter on a construction crew. The one day as we were building a house I pulled out my string and started to string a wall.

Boss said, "What the h*** are you doing with that sting?" I said " I'm gonna true the wall." He said "you got an eye don't ya?" He was right I have two and he began to teach me that day to trust them.

So when I drilled these necks I knew about how much angle I wanted them to have. And I held the eggbeater at about that angle. Sound simple right? But what if I miss? Well most of these were right on the money but the one I'll show here was just a bit off. This is how I corrected it....

First with each of these necks I put two pieces of masking tape on the neck and marked my centers. Then I stuck the dowel stick in and put a strait edge to it.



This one was out a bit to far to the left.
So using a round bottomed Japanese chisel and proceeded to carve out a bit of wood to where I could move the dowel around.



Then I carved a bit off the dowel. Although I don't show it here a small amount of wood was added opposite side to where it was carved away. When the hole is filled with the tenon, we want to fill it with wood not glue. Glue is only to stick things together. It is not be the mechanical strength of any joint.





Because the sticks started out full thickness, a small amount could be gained by altering the tapering. Here I'm working it down with a plane.



Here it is with the taper complete.



Here I'm stickin' it back to see if I did OK.



Looks good.

---

Edited by - DanKnowles on 10/10/2010 16:48:38

Jonnycake White - Posted - 10/11/2010:  09:30:19

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"Looks good" - understatement of the month.

Steven M - Posted - 10/11/2010:  13:04:11

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I am really impressed.

Ron Ortegel - Posted - 10/11/2010:  13:23:19

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Very interesting project.

Dan, How did you learn all this great stuff?

DEmery - Posted - 10/11/2010:  15:48:58

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Gee Dan - when you said one was off a little I looked closely to see if it was my neck (not that I would have ever known the difference). By the look of things...my neck and dowel must have been "just right." I hadn't even thought considered how you get this stuff right. It has simply always just been right. Interesting to see how you address little issues to make it perfect. I enjoyed watching the process. David E.

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/11/2010:  17:45:08

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Jon, Steven,
Daw gone.... Thanks...
I'm glad you are enjoying this.

Ron,
A lot of this I learned from my people. A whole bunch came from folks like Don McCarty, Chuck Erickson (The Duke), Pete Nichols, Ed Corbiser, Mike Lamb, Tommy Ogle, Deon Tackett, Frank Ford, Charlie Darrington, Tim May, The Guild of American Luthiers, Fine Woodworking Magazine and anyone else who would hold still long enough for me to learn just a bit from. Some of these folks are here on the Hangout Like Marvin & Richard Brown.

Some of this is learned by experience and intuition. Once a person knows the basic rules of the road (and there aren't a whole bunch of them) then learning comes by doing. Sometime I feel that is the best teacher.

David,
Oh no... yours was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy offfffffffffffff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just joking...

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/11/2010:  18:14:25

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T-HOOP UPDATE

Here are the three rings as they looked today...





Well folks, do they look old yet???

BTW
Over the weekend on Prairie Home Companion I herd a duet that I would like to recommend to everyone. They are called STORYHILL, the song they performed that just has me torn up is called Better Angels.

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/11/2010:  18:29:01

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GOIN' FOR THE GLUE

On to the glue. This is quite straight forward. The glue pot is filled and heated. When the glue ready the neck is loaded into the vice ad given one final check.



Glue is slathered into the mortise hole and onto the dowel stick tenon. It is then placed into the hole. The trueness of the stick is checkes by sighting down the dowel and fingerboard surface.

Check out the glue squeeze, nothing looks quite like hot hide glue squeeze out.



After the glue sets up for 20 or 30 minutes it becomes like Jello and is quite easily and cleanly removed.



Here is the whole stack of them glued up.

David, can you find yours?



Here is a shot of the whole batch along with the rims.

aj_fuller - Posted - 10/12/2010:  05:22:49

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Looking great Dan! Anxiously awaiting your process for cleaning up the overlapping portion of the rim joints - can not wait!

A.J.

---

Edited by - aj_fuller on 10/12/2010 05:23:16

DEmery - Posted - 10/12/2010:  07:46:09

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Dan I saw your note asking if I can find my neck. You didn't make the hunt too easy....but if I was guessing it appears to be at the bottom of the stack on the right hand side.
David E.

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/12/2010:  18:41:34

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Well folks I guess y'all know where I am at with these banjos at this time. So I guess a bit of looking ahead could be called for. My plans as like this. In the next few days I am planning on finishing up the rims; drilling for bracket shoes, mortising for the dowel stick, trimming and glass papering. And then making the remaining hardware: tuning pegs, tailpieces, bridges, bracket shoes, J-hooks and nuts and aging them. Then perhaps by the end of next week or the week after start the wood finishing... Lord-a-mercy that list does make me tired.

A.J.
I guess I'll have to look back at the earlier posts, I might have missed the pot trimming.

David,
You win the prize!!! Correct!

DEmery - Posted - 10/12/2010:  18:58:51

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Dan that is a lot of stuff to do in a week or two. We've been down these roads together in the space time continuum.I look forward to watching the progress. David E.

muleskinner63 - Posted - 10/12/2010:  19:23:35

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Hey Dan looking good i like the way that glue clean`s up , thank`s for the tip . Hope to catch with you soon give me a call sometime your friend Ron

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/14/2010:  18:26:58

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Hay everybody,
Last night I was a Murray State University in Murray , Kentucky for a concert listening to a couple of Japanese Shamisen players. The shamisen is a three string banjo instrument, played with a large fan shaped pick. I've never seen (or heard) anything like this. They were wonderful and the music was quite invigorating.

David,
I'm gonna give it my best shot!

Ron,
Thanks I hope that helps. I'll try to call you tomorrow if I don't remember to, please call me.

deuceswilde - Posted - 10/14/2010:  18:30:39

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Dan, are we going to get to play one of these at the Gathering in Nashville?

-Joel Hooks

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/16/2010:  19:14:32

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Joel,
As of yet I'm not sure if I will be able to attend the Gathering. But if I do make it I will bet you have the chance to flog out some music on one.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/16/2010:  19:26:54

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Y'know, Paris, TN is just an hour detour north of I-40...on yer way back from Nashburg, Joel.

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/16/2010:  19:43:03

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STARTIN' TO GIT OLD

Today I'm gonna start preparing one of the necks for finishing. The wood must be pre-aged so that when the finish is worn through new wood doesn't show through. These steps require some quite noxious and poisonous chemicals. These MUST be handled with extreme care. Gloves and good ventilation are a must.

I will approach the in much the same fashion as European violin builders.

Here is the neck, it is one of the Spanish cedar ones. Also here you see me gloved up and a small bottle of Potassium Dichromate.



The neck is wet thoroughly with the PD. This stuff will age and grey the surface of the wood.





After it has dried the neck is sanded with 400.




Then it recieves another go-round.



It is dried with a heat gun.






The neck will now spend several days out in the sunshine gaining its silver luster.

Paul R - Posted - 10/16/2010:  20:37:17

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Dan,

I'll back up Paul's suggestion, and Will's seconding, of a book on your work. A series of chapters on your various projects would sit well on anyone's coffee table, but, more importantly, not rest there long. It would be an invaluable guide for many, and just might have 51,000 buyers right here on BHO! Thirty-something years ago I attended a guitar making presentation by Grit Laskin, at the old Toronto Folklore Centre. Who would have thought that decades later he'd have a book out on his inlay work?

When you get down to it, what you do is just plain logical. Your techniques are ingenious yet so common sense, they continually bring that, "Oh, yeah! I get it!" moment.

I have one concern, though. When you're using chemicals that require you to use protection, is there any possibility/danger that residue on the instrument could have an effect on the player some years down the road? I realize the amounts may be insignificant, but ... .

Paul

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/17/2010:  08:38:30

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Paul,
Thanks for your compliments, some day I may try putting all this stuff down on paper.

As to the chemical concern... The chemicals I am using have been used by violin & furniture builders for generations without obvious damage to the objects owners. Most of the residue will be washed away later in the process and the remainder will be sealed under a coat of finish. Someone else may know much more about this than me though.

Carl Ball - Posted - 10/17/2010:  11:10:09

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Is it not the fumes from these chemicals that is the biggest danger? If so once dry there would no longer be any fumes to worry about. If it can be a danger when absorbed through the skin then I would worry more about the long term exposure to them.

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/17/2010:  18:01:49

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Carl,
I agree whit you... but what do I know!

DEmery - Posted - 10/17/2010:  18:08:07

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Dan let me know if I should use gloves when picking the 1850 Jacobs. I may already be infected from ole Abe and had not considered the toxic impact of banjos. Sherry suggested that I stop chewing tobacco before getting concerned about banjo poisioning. She is probably correct as ususal. David E.

DEmery - Posted - 10/17/2010:  18:08:10

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Dan let me know if I should use gloves when picking the 1850 Jacobs. I may already be infected from ole Abe and had not considered the toxic impact of banjos. Sherry suggested that I stop chewing tobacco before getting concerned about banjo poisioning. She is probably correct as ususal. David E.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/18/2010:  07:26:53

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The MSDS on Potassium Dichromate reads like a cancer horror-show.

Quite frankly, I would be wearing a respirator and a chemical apron. Sanding the treated wood puts dust in the air, etc. The dirty rags and anything else that comes in contact should be disposed of properly.

This stuff is nasty and the greatest danger is to the luthier. As Dan sez, once it has been encapsulated by the finish, it shouldn't be an issue.

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/18/2010:  17:37:12

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David,
Yes these are the items that you should wear;
a mauve and green India rubber chemical apron, New York silver gauntleted patented rubber gloves (size M/L), red Italian glove leather wing tipped rubber soled shoes (size 11 EE), 21 jewel Rolex with French diamond encrusted stretch band, 1850's gold framed glasses (nearsighted correction to 20-10), 3 piece birthday suit, one emperors new red and green striped tie, blue and white with red trim HASMAT suit, Black Gold Toe socs (size L), Tennessee drivers license #BR549, One bag of Dutch Double salted licorice (16 oz.), 1832 Winchester style D, Green forced air recovery unit Wallace #U7D and one half stick Wrigley's Double-mint gum. The preceding should keep you safe


Marc,
You are completely right, not withstanding the above reply!

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/18/2010:  17:54:54

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I was privilaged to once again hear another samisen concert by Oyama & Nitta at UTM on Sunday. These fellas are GREAT!!!!!!
Tomorrow night (Tue.) they will be performing at Nashville's STATION INN. If you are anywhere near and can attend do it! This is a show you don't want to miss!

Here is a bit about the Samisen and Oyama and Nitta...(I got this off the net and it doesn't come near expressing the excitement and beauty these two master musicians create).

Here is a bit about the samisen playres who will be at the Station Inn tomorrow (Tue.)night.

Oyama & Nitta

The shamisen is a traditional instrument introduced to mainland Japan from Okinawa in the sixteenth century. Somewhat similar in appearance to a banjo, the instrument has undergone several evolutions through the centuries, the latest of which is the Tsugaru shamisen. This unique instrument is heard throughout the world, spanning genres from traditional Japanese folk melodies to contemporary popular hits and original compositions at international jazz festivals. The versatility of the Tsugaru shamisen will be highlighted in a live performance by Oyama x Nitta, a duo formed by two of Japan’s leading Tsugaru shamisen performers. Both have won national samisen awards and perform internationally.

THESE GUYS ARE GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DanKnowles - Posted - 10/18/2010:  18:44:30

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SEALING IN THE EVIDENCE


This time I get the first coat of finish on this neck. This should seal in all the work. I be using shellac at a bit less than a 1 lb. cut. I'm just quickly brushing the mess on, no worries about brush marks and etc. Most of this will be rubbed quite thin before I get done with the banjo. This is just cheepo Bulls Eye shellac. I didn't get a whole lot of photos of this stage but I'll make a bunch more for y'all as I work the others through the process.