DanKnowles - Posted - 08/05/2010:  17:17:53

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Well here it is, at long last,
BIRTHING 1850

This forum will be following the construction of a reproduction of a 1850’s era Jacobs banjo. This was the instrument which was featured in the post Restoring 1850. When the Jacobs was here in Paris I took the opportunity to do a drawing of the instrument. This along with the myriad photos will be what I am following.

Let us begin by rehashing the Jacobs banjo.

Its rim was made of fairly plain maple... The neck is made from mahogany or perhaps Spanish cedar. The bracket shoes are star shaped and are hand cut from brass. The protrusion and threaded rod (also brass) have been braised to the star shaped body. The J hooks and the tension hoop are steel. The bracket nuts are hand cut brass.

Of the parts which I made: the tuners & tailpiece are persimmon and the bridge is made from spruce..

I will be making two banjos during this set of posts. One banjo (for David Emmery) will follow the above pattern. This instrument being a proto type, will receive the complete treatment. It will be aged (as best I can) to match the original. The second banjo (for L.B.L.s Homeplace 1850) will basically be made from wood harvested at the living history museum. Its rim will be of white oak and its neck will be from a very old (perhaps 100 years) piece of walnut. Because nearly all of the tools used on this farm/ museum are from the period, this instrument will also undergo the aging processes.

This ought to be fun. I’ll be using many of the woodworking techniques which I learned from my dad and grandfather. Although it would be quicker to do all of the cutting and sanding by power tools, I will attempt to do a great deal of the work much the same way as would have been done in 1850. Of course I will not turn off my lights, A.C., and electricity. And I will record all of these events on my digital camera and record MP3’s for you on my digital recorder… maybe I should call a buddy of mine and have him plug the whole thing into his CNC machine…

Jut kidding…

Anyway, here we go. Thanks for coming along for the ride. I hope you enjoy it.

BNJOMAKR - Posted - 08/05/2010:  17:36:16

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quote:

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Anyway, here we go. Thanks for coming along for the ride. I hope you enjoy it.

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I've got my seat belt fastened...!

Jim D - Posted - 08/05/2010:  17:58:09

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Dan, could you post a photo of the back of the original?


OOOOPPPS - never mind. I found the RESTORING 1850 post, which has plenty of photos. But, I can't figure how I managed to miss that entirely?

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Edited by - Jim D on 08/05/2010 19:14:23

Paul R - Posted - 08/05/2010:  18:59:09

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quote:

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Originally posted by DanKnowles
Anyway, here we go. Thanks for coming along for the ride. I hope you enjoy it.

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Yes! Here we go again! Wheeeeee!

f#dead - Posted - 08/05/2010:  19:04:19

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I'm in. thnx Dan

pernicketylad - Posted - 08/05/2010:  19:15:39

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These are the moments that make that broadband subscription worthwhile!

Carl Ball - Posted - 08/05/2010:  19:24:32

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I have been waiting for this Dan. I do enjoy your work and attention to detail. I came from a family of craftsmen but I didn't follow in their steps. I know they would enjoy this if they were still here.

XXXris - Posted - 08/05/2010:  19:35:20

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Great, can't wait! This is great fun/education for all of us. Start looking for vintage paper for the heads, ha ha ha.

Rowland - Posted - 08/05/2010:  19:43:55

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I think you've got something going here . . . lol
' wouldn't miss it for the world

vtbanjoplayer - Posted - 08/05/2010:  21:01:51

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Oooh Yeah, This is gonna be fun!

Stringbean45 - Posted - 08/05/2010:  22:54:18

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Finally something to look forward to again.
When you need someone to break things, give me a heads up.
Can't wait, get this thing started.

Don

Bluegrass-Gibbs - Posted - 08/06/2010:  03:55:00

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great! Love this thread already . . . .

chadp - Posted - 08/06/2010:  04:23:31

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awesome! this is exciting.

Jonnycake White - Posted - 08/06/2010:  09:01:35

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Great - I built significant portions of both my minstrel banjos at a living history park with old hand tools. It's great fun and really gives you an appreciation for the 19th century craftsmen.

Viper - Posted - 08/06/2010:  09:47:33

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Let the suspense build! Cheers!

Bigwrench - Posted - 08/06/2010:  09:52:41

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Can't Wait to see how they turn out !!!

frihauf - Posted - 08/06/2010:  12:06:19

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Ready to go!!!

Ben

AlanQ - Posted - 08/06/2010:  12:43:11

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I am going to really enjoy this! Another fan standing ready here :)

Alan

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Edited by - AlanQ on 08/06/2010 12:44:05

DEmery - Posted - 08/06/2010:  13:26:38

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Dan - of course I find this first 1850 of particular interest since it will end up on my wall. This will be a great project and it appears several of your regular viewers feel the same way. If there are tid-bits to disucss on the proto-type let me know. David E.

omiimii - Posted - 08/06/2010:  15:37:42

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dan,
do you ever sleep?
you should give it a try sometime!

vtbanjoplayer - Posted - 08/06/2010:  17:21:55

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Or not,
It seems Dan's banjobiorhythms are right on!!


Matt

muleskinner63 - Posted - 08/07/2010:  12:58:34

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Hi Dan hope to see you soon as i feel good enough to get there ,can`t wait to see the progress since the last time i was at the shop.

DanKnowles - Posted - 08/07/2010:  18:18:57

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Oh My! Oh MY!!!!

I'm certainly glad y'all are here. There is no place like this Banjo Hang Out! The folks who started this up and keep it running deserve the real kudos from each of us. Yesterday was my birthday (we had a sushi party) and so I didn't get the chance to look here until tonight, All of your responses made a perfect birthday present! Thank you.

Now to business.
David,
I know that the idea of this instrument is to replicate the Jacobs, but the Jacobs, like most of these instruments I've seen, has rather high action, do you want me to copy this on your instrument? Do you want me to go hog wild and crack the rim? How about delaminating the rim a bit (to imitate the dunking the Jacobs went through) and then regluing it?

DanKnowles - Posted - 08/07/2010:  18:36:50

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DRAWING IT OUT no #1

The first step in making a reproduction of our 1850’s Jacobs banjo is making an accurate set of drawings. This along with the photos (and memories) will form the basis for this recreation.

A large sheet of paper was laid out on one of my work benches. The banjo was then laid on the paper, on its face.



Next holding it in place I traced around it. I don’t really need a mechanical drawing yet. This just gives me a placement for measurements.




Now using a digital dial caliper I measure the rim. I’ll measure the rim in several places. When I build the rims I will thickness the timbers to an average of these thicknesses. The average is .212



Next the rim depth is measured in several places. Like the thickness this varies also. It averages to 3 1/8”.



The bracket shoes are measured. This is where I really realize that these were totally hand cut. None of them measure the same. It’s good I numbered them to return to their original places or the marks on the rim would not have matched.



Next the tension hoop.



Width at the end of the fingerboard.

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Edited by - DanKnowles on 08/07/2010 20:25:09

omiimii - Posted - 08/07/2010:  18:37:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by DanKnowles


Now to business.
David,
I know that the idea of this instrument is to replicate the Jacobs, but the Jacobs, like most of these instruments I've seen, has rather high action, do you want me to copy this on your instrument? Do you want me to go hog wild and crack the rim? How about delaminating the rim a bit (to imitate the dunking the Jacobs went through) and then regluing it?

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Let the madness begin!!! I'm excited to see what goes on here!

SPLogDog - Posted - 08/07/2010:  19:34:18

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Dan, the original somehow has a sort of elegance. I'm not sure how thats possible in a banjo.

Slingerland - Posted - 08/07/2010:  21:42:51

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I somehow missed your "Restoring 1850" set of posts. Great Work! (to say the least) Thank you for those and I look forward to this series.

DEmery - Posted - 08/08/2010:  06:26:17

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Dan, the prep and measurements to get 1850 to proper "scale" is impressive. I know these banjos are typically built and the neck set with very high action. Let's set the neck on this one that brings the action down so it will be a player. Your minstrel banjos are so easy to play and this brings the minstrel banjo to a new level so it can reach more complicated music with greater ease. As for the rim let your sense of art that replicates the original Jacobs determine delamination, cracks, and water marks. In other words whack away and document the fun. I look forward to seeing how you reproduce the appearance of the Jacobs that developed over many years. David E.

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Edited by - DEmery on 08/08/2010 06:34:00

DanKnowles - Posted - 08/08/2010:  08:49:32

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Allen,
Oh son, THE MADNESS HAS ALREADY BEGUN!

Will,
Ya know it is interesting how elegance is so often found in simple, clean lines.

Paul,
I'm glad you found and joined us.

David,
I was certainly hoping you would wish to go in this direction. I like folks to want to play my instruments, not just look at them.

Along that line I'm wondering what you would think about this idea.

The original banjo has a single piece neck (if you don't include the heel piece). What if I was to cut off the fingerboard surface, install an ebony center spline (for strength) and then glue that fingerboard piece back in place. This would add long term straightness to the neck. the only problem would be that it (the joint) would show

DEmery - Posted - 08/08/2010:  11:50:34

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Dan, I hear those wheels turning. With the prototype - let's stay with your original idea of original construction, building techniques, and all that stuff passed down by your daddy and grand daddy. Seems if we have an ebony spine showing we have lost the visual impact of Jacobs. Pick out the right piece of seasoned wood and let her go. If it takes a twist in 50 years I will let the owner send it to your grandson to address. Heck, it will create a good BHO thread in a few decades. David E.

jbalch - Posted - 08/08/2010:  13:21:42

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Dan:

Your center spline idea is very interesting.

Would the spline be visible from the back side of the neck (like the stripe on a Vega neck for instance)? Or ... would the ebony strip be enclosed inside the neck (like a non-adjustable truss rod)?

The idea of cutting the fingerboard slab from the neck blank... instaling a hidden ebony strip ...and then re-gluing the fingerboard slab back in its original position ... seems like a great way to improve the strength with minimal aesthetic impact.

Do you think the reinforcement is needed if this banjo is to be set-up with gut strings?

Castania - Posted - 08/08/2010:  15:22:17

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Sorry I'm late to the party . . . I was Clifftopping, but I'm back now.

Dan, I'll be following along; this is almost as good as apprenticing in person . . . almost.

I like the photos -- keep 'em coming.

Ken

DanKnowles - Posted - 08/08/2010:  18:12:21

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David, John,

Twas just an idea. The ebony spline would not show. What would show would be where the fingerboard was sawed off and reglued to the neck. There would be a joint line on each side of the neck.

If one gives it thought, guess this might be overkill. The gut strings don't really exert that much pressure. After all the Jacobs neck was not even quarter sawn and after 160 years it is still straight as an arrow. I've never really noticed a problem with any of the minstrels I've built to date. David do you see any issur with the Abe Lincoln? I guess I am always searching for a better way.

I do like that idea of my progeny having to fix my work! I can see him/ her now shaking their head and saying, "Grandpa wasn't one to always stick with tried and true. He was always trying to find something new and better." I can see the thread now...


Ken,
I hope you had fun at Clifftop. Did you see my good fried Bill Richard and his partner Al Box when you were there? I've heard great news about the new Richard banjos.

DanKnowles - Posted - 08/08/2010:  18:31:38

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DRAWING #2

Well here we are back again, measuring stick in hand. Today I'll be finishing up the measuring of this baby.

First i start by measuring the thickness of the neck at the nut. 5/8” nice and thin.



Then just before the neck thickens for the heel. 1”



Then the heel… 1 7/8”



All of the measurement are meticulously recorded. This is of utmost importance.



Heel length.



The tools of the trade.

drew-gurbach - Posted - 08/08/2010:  18:55:38

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Help me...is this like a replica of the first 5-string?

DanKnowles - Posted - 08/08/2010:  20:38:54

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Drew,
Thanks for asking. I did a post recently here on the Banjo Hangout called RESTORING 1850. It was about the restoration I did of an 1850's Jacobs banjo. This post is about the creation of a reproduction of that instrument.

DEmery - Posted - 08/09/2010:  05:14:23

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Dan the neck on Abe Lincoln is perfetly good. The other Boucher that Bob Flesher built nearly a decade ago is unchanged. Where I misread your notes had to do if the ebony spline would show on the back. That wouldn't work for me but equally so the joint left behind to remove a fingerboard slab just seems to be unnecessary. If the Jacobs is straight after all these years my guess is this one will last that long and be straight enough. David E.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 08/09/2010:  07:30:36

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Madness indeed!

Wait a minute, where are all the Laser Scanners and Coordinate Measuring Machines?? Next thing you'll tell me is that you're not using the metric system.

Oh, the horror!!

DanKnowles - Posted - 08/09/2010:  19:25:34

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David,

Well I guess that those banjos tell the tail. I'll make her out of one piece and nerry will I saw er spline 'er.

Marc
Now son you've been inna my shop and you knowz dat I ast you not to tell the folks about my Lazy measurin' thang an my CNC an my CMM an my M&Ms ( specially not the orange 'unz)!

Plez keep it under yer hat!

What uz that odder thang ya ast about? Met-re-kal, er somthin'.

Dan
(the sicerat ajint men)

DanKnowles - Posted - 08/10/2010:  18:16:12

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WILL THE REAL PATTERN STAND UP?

Well folks, Today we’ll start making the patterns for this banjo. I don’t need any pattern for the rim because I know that the rim will be around .210” thick X 3 1/8” tall X 11 5/8” diameter. So that is just a given. The neck is another matter. Its shape is not a nice consistent like the rim. So I’ll make a pattern set for it. This will include a top view and a side view.

First off I went over to my buddy’s glass shop and got a chunk of 1/8” Plexiglas and brought it back to my shop. Next I got out the drawing and laid it on my bench.



On this I placed my Plexiglas, rulers, straight edge, French curve and other drawing tools.




First I laid out center lines. Everything will be measured off of the center line.




Scale, peghead length were added.



Neck edges are drawn in. Here the 5th. string volute is drawn.




Peg holes located.





The side view is drawn. I am using the factory edge as my fingerboard marking.



Next using a French curve the heel shape is marked.

DEmery - Posted - 08/10/2010:  18:42:53

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Dan the drawings are simply great. I have seen parts of your plans and drawings on past projects but we haven't produced a true copy of an historic piece like the Jacobs. It will be fun to watch paper, plans, and measurements transition to wood, carving, and take shape as the 1850. David E.

Bob Robert - Posted - 08/11/2010:  06:17:46

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Ah, another Dan Knowles building thread! Who needs TV, we have Dan Knowles on the BHO! Time to pop some corn and get an icy cold beverage and enjoy the show.

Steven M - Posted - 08/11/2010:  06:38:51

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Yeah, can't wait for this one. Trouble is do i look at each new post by Dan or save them up and read a couple at a time. Oh the dilemma!

Carl Ball - Posted - 08/11/2010:  07:46:29

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Dan I have a question for you. In the1850's do you think they drew up plans in advance then cut and carved or for the first model did they just cut and carve without written plans. I know that some of the old boat builders could build with very little in the way of drawings or so I have heard. I just wondered about instrument builders. I know that you must do this to reproduce that Jacob's but if it was a first production piece back all those years which method do you think was used?

Thanks Carl

DanKnowles - Posted - 08/11/2010:  17:11:43

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David, Bob & Steven

Thanks so much, I'm glad you are enjoying this. Just one thing please save me some chips!

Carl,

That's a good question. I would suspect that they used patterns much like I will. I could (they could have too) build this without patterns, but I want to replicate this banjo many times and so it is a big time savings to make patterns.



NEW BANJO

Here is a banjo that I'm building that I thought y'all might like to see. My client was raised beneath this mountain in Virginia. The mountain is made from Tennessee river mussel shell and is a very pretty peach color. The details will show up better after I do the engraving. I'll post some photos after it is complete.

DanKnowles - Posted - 08/11/2010:  17:28:36

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ANOTHER PATTERN


I don’t think I got into this yet but during my free time I’ve started building a Solar powered car so I can save on gas and save the world. I’m using the guts from an old (very old, it came from my friend Tommy Ogle) golf cart as my drive train. I’m planning on making the frame out of white oak and the body from Luann plywood. As of now I’m just getting started but I may pitch in a photo or two of that project as we go along. It should give y’all something to scratch your heads over and perhaps a little grin too!

So here I am continuing on with the pattern layout. I finish laying out the side view pattern.




Now the fun begins, SAW TIME!!!














After the sawing is complete it’s time to sand and true the edges. I like starting the sanding with my orbital barrel sander. Sorry about this photo. My shoulder got in the way.



Next I trued the edges on my belt sander. Ah yes this is the way my Grand daddy would have done this if he had one…

phillygtr - Posted - 08/12/2010:  08:05:47

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Dan, I enjoyed the restoration thread. Question -- why go through the aging process for these replicas? Ok, I get the term "replica" but it might be cool to see a Jacobs style in brand spankin' new condition. Let the next 150 years or so do the aging for you lol.

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Edited by - phillygtr on 08/12/2010 16:35:52

LEUllman - Posted - 08/12/2010:  13:55:18

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quote:

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Dan, I enjoyed the restoration thread. Question -- why go through the aging process for these replicas? Ok, I get the term "replica" but it might be cool to see a Jacobs style in brand spankin' new condition. Let the next 150 years or so do the aging for you lol.

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I find myself in agreement here. If I was a reenacter, I'd want a new or maybe lightly aged instrument. After all, it was new back in its day; laying on 150 years of aging is cool for a museum or display piece, but unless the banjo was supposed to have been made in 1700, it's anachronistic for someone attempting "authenticity." (How's that for irony?)

So how do I get on the waiting list for one of these?

DanKnowles - Posted - 08/12/2010:  18:37:07

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Andy & Larry,

You ask why I should age these new banjos... well... cause it's fun!!! I really enjoy the art of doing this. I love the challenge. Most of the time I am privileged to create shiny new instruments for folks and then let them and time add the patina of years to them. Here I get to recreate or perhaps create a new past.

Were I an existentialist...

The list is already forming. If anyone would like their own personalized version of this banjo contact me through my home page.