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Today's Chords: 'Playing the Melody' .. + see pg. 11

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Jun 1, 2007 - 12:39:17 PM

1125 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by hipine

quote:
....The pick-up notes I believe TIMEWISE are notes that are subtracted from the last measure of the song ....



You got it all goin' on, mah bruthuh!

You opened up the box, so now I gotta know. Chicken or the egg? Did this chord stuff come out of Pete's camp, or did you hook up with Pete's camp when looking for a way to progress along these lines? I know he teaches this way now. I stumbled onto a "letter to banjo instructors" or something on his website once that caused me to yell "THANK YOU!" right out loud as it resonated so well with feelings I'd had for years, and expressed above. I'd love to attend one of Pete's camps........

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that camp, as pertains to the general subject of this post, building banjo arangements from chord progressions.......

-Dave G.





Dave - actually I got the first ideas about focusing on chord progressions from my banjo teacher in Alvin, TX - Kerry Jones. He is an outstanding instructor. The first order of business in every lesson I have had with him is to play a song I know while he backs me up then switch to my backing him up - very chord oriented and that was when I started realizing that it is important for me to know the chord structure to get an understanding of the songs. The Pete Wernick Banjo Camp I attended in Boulder was a great camp - Pete taught us a 6 step process of going from scratch to playing a bluegrass tune of our choice with no use of tabs. It was kind of a process of going from "Basic Banjo" to "Intermediate" in 6 days. In fact, I did not make the graduation goal during that 6 days - I just could not keep my rolls going to get it done at that time. I was not the least bit disappointed, however - my thoughts went back to a lesson I learned from John Lawless that goes like this: 'I haven't done it YET' . The bigger challenge for me during that week and my real personal goal in that week was to understand the 6 step process - I did accomplish that goal with Pete's patience and good teaching. Many in the class graduated to 'Intermediate'. I have since had my own graduation to 'Intermediate' and I can now play a couple of songs based on the process he teaches. So, now my thoughts go to a lesson line that Pete taught us which goes like this: "I can do that" . The exciting news now is that I see fun times ahead on learning more songs on the banjo. I told Pete that next year I will be back for the INTERMEDIATE class (as opposed to 'Basic Class' I attended this last time) and I plan to be at least in the middle of the performance range - not one of the beginner intermediate students. For accurate descriptions and teaching methods you need to TALK TO PETE WERNICK - these comments of mine are just my take on the process and you need to talk to Dr. Banjo to get the class he teaches. I highly recommend him as a teacher.

Phil
Katy, TX

"Remember to enjoy the banjo journey." (Chris Quinn)

Edited by - Kemo Sabe on 06/06/2007 07:41:44

Jun 1, 2007 - 3:57:17 PM

hipine

USA

67 posts since 7/3/2006

Thanks man. I need to raise the priority of attending one of Pete's camps. But I too need to get better at my rolls and fundamentals first, I think. One pit I sometimes fall into is for the fact that I'm "just comping" leading to actually getting sloppy, if I call it what it really is. I know I need to do more practice on good drive, tone, etc. I think those things are best hammered home in the learning of leads.

Sounds like you've got a great instructor down there. Stick with it. I have to check the maps. My wife is from Refugio, TX and we drive down there a few times a year. If we pass anywhere near your neck of the woods, we'll have to say hi.

And next time you're in CO, give us a shout!

All the best,

-Dave G.

Jun 1, 2007 - 9:15:43 PM

1125 posts since 7/15/2003

Dave - that sounds good. My wife and I go to Estes Park from time to time - actually, it is our favorite hang-out. I hope we can get together one of these days.

Phil
Katy, TX

"Remember to enjoy the banjo journey." (Chris Quinn)

Jun 3, 2007 - 4:13:48 PM

Zawinul

Germany

463 posts since 4/24/2003

I don't know if you want to include this in your wonderful list but I just found out that the "Salty Dog Blues" follows a I-VI-II-V progression. This kind of progression is very common in a lot of jazz standards!

Phil

Jun 3, 2007 - 5:02:46 PM

1125 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by Zawinul

I don't know if you want to include this in your wonderful list but I just found out that the "Salty Dog Blues" follows a I-VI-II-V progression. This kind of progression is very common in a lot of jazz standards!

Phil



Phil - I love that song - I have considered other progressions but at this time I think I am going to stay with the four groups. With some CDs I have ordered from Chris Jones (Actually from Janet Davis Music) - I think I will be adding a bundle of Bluegrass songs to the four groups. Chris has recorded 121 songs on 3 CDs which are included with "The Bluegrass Wordbook" - the Wordbook includes the lyrics and chords. He performs each song and accompanyies himself on guitar. I also believe I am going to learn some fine Bluegrass songs and chord structures from that book and CDs. I also believe I am going to get some REAL GOOD 'ear training' from those CDs and I do plan to play along with my Huber to add some slides and other slurs and back-up to those songs. Yep - I am going to learn some Bluegrass! I appreciate your suggestion - Salty Dog Blues is one of my all time favorite Bluegrass songs. Thanks for that idea.

Phil
Katy, TX


"Remember to enjoy the banjo journey." (Chris Quinn)

Edited by - Kemo Sabe on 06/03/2007 17:32:15

Jun 6, 2007 - 12:01:34 AM
Players Union Member

Rusty

USA

191 posts since 1/9/2007

This is wonderful!
Nice to have the list of tunes with the chord progressions.

Rusty

Jun 13, 2007 - 9:53:45 AM

72chevy

USA

374 posts since 9/6/2005

bump. this is a great thread that belongs close to the top, not on page two. had to bump it.

Jun 13, 2007 - 11:19:52 AM

1125 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by 72chevy

bump. this is a great thread that belongs close to the top, not on page two. had to bump it.



72chevy - thanks for the comment (& the 'bump') I have just added another song in Group A - I put updates in green for a short while. I am glad you like this project!


Phil
Katy, TX

"Remember to enjoy the banjo journey." (Chris Quinn)

Jun 13, 2007 - 1:01:24 PM

62 posts since 2/18/2006

Now on to a matter of equal importance. When selecting songs to play for a set, I've always tried to mix them up from the various groups. Over the years, I've discovered that the listening audience will become easily bored if the back to back songs are of the same tempo, style, and dare I say chord progression patterns. Most of the time, it will be a sub-conscience thing since its not so readily apparent. Taken to the extreme though, imagine playing 10 straight numbers that had the progression of I - vi - IV - V progression.

Jun 13, 2007 - 1:29:02 PM

72chevy

USA

374 posts since 9/6/2005

Great point too...

Tom

Jun 17, 2007 - 7:05:07 PM

66 posts since 10/17/2006

Thanks KEMO for the time that you put into this for ALL of us....... Very COOL BEANS........Ban-Joey

The Song Remembers........

Jun 17, 2007 - 9:24:25 PM

1125 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by Ban-Joey

Thanks KEMO for the time that you put into this for ALL of us....... Very COOL BEANS........Ban-Joey

The Song Remembers........



Ban-Joey - you are welcome and thanks for the post. At the present time I am 'jamming on the patio' to a series of bluegrass songs put together by Chris Jones on his "Bluegrass Wordbook" which has all the lyrics and chords as well as 3 CD's where he plays guitar and sings a whole bundle of bluegrass songs (123 songs I think). These CD's and Wordbook are giving me a great way to check some of the listings I have made on this thread, discover songs and add them to the groups if they fit into one of the four chord patterns, practice 'real-time' changing chords and capo (he uses all kinds of keys depending on the best key for his voice), practice playing from the 'G Position', 'C Position', 'D Position', practice some slides and other slurs, pick out a few of the melody notes from time to time, practice and improve some back-up skills, improve timing skills and just generally enjoy learning about bluegrass music. The first time through most of the songs I just do a strum to learn the chords - it is really my first attempt at some keys / chords. Then I figure and practice the patterns that get me to those chords I need for the song. (Yep, duh!... the patterns are very repetitive!) This project is what I would call a CRASH COURSE in ear training, keys and capos, chord patterns, timing and just bluergrass songs over the decades. I can get the rolls into the slow and medium tempo songs fairly well I think but I have to scold my fingers frequently on the fast tempo songs - I duz da best I can on dem songs! I love doing the back-up to the 3/4 (waltz) songs. I also make a run through each song singing along as best I can (now you know why I go out there to the patio) - I am learning some things about key signatures and my vocal range for these songs. I am thinking that when I get thorugh Chris's 'Bluegrass Wordbook' I will probably wrap this project up (Chord Progression Patterns - 4 Groups). That will be a ways down the road. Meanwhile, this has been a fun project. Thanks again for the post.

Phil
Katy, TX


"Remember to enjoy the banjo journey." (Chris Quinn)

Edited by - Kemo Sabe on 06/18/2007 04:36:49

Jun 19, 2007 - 7:22:27 PM

hipine

USA

67 posts since 7/3/2006

Hey Phil,

How are you liking that book/CD combo? I have a friend who's put together backing tracks from various sources to use in practicing various sets of guitar tunes he likes to play. I'd like to do the same for my banjo playing and it sounds like you might have a good base there. How do you like it?

Although I have to remind myself that a lot of the songs I like to play won't be found in bluegrass songbooks.... :^)

-Dave G.

Jun 19, 2007 - 10:55:11 PM

1125 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by hipine

Hey Phil,

How are you liking that book/CD combo? I have a friend who's put together backing tracks from various sources to use in practicing various sets of guitar tunes he likes to play. I'd like to do the same for my banjo playing and it sounds like you might have a good base there. How do you like it?

Although I have to remind myself that a lot of the songs I like to play won't be found in bluegrass songbooks.... :^)





Dave - The songbook/CD combination is great for what I am doing these days. You can see in my previous post (my response to Ban-Joey above) all about the things I am doing with the Chris Jones WordBook / 3 CD set. I should tell you that in my opinion it is ALL Bluegrass and is what I would call a 'teaching set' - as opposed to an 'entertainment set'. Chris Jones goes straight through all those songs and usually sings the chorus one time only to save space on the discs - even though you would normally see the chorus repeated in other circumstances. (i.e.) ...it is a wonderful learning tool for me to hear bluegrass songs I have never heard and those I have heard in the short time I have been playing the banjo, get the melody, timing, chords, vocals, etc.....etc...etc.... Chris is an excellent guitar player and excellent singer. He sings in many keys depending on the song and how his voice best matches up - thus giving me a real-life quick change to various keys and capo set-ups. It is what I believe a great way to learn about bluegrass, key changes, voice training, practice rolls, learn chording patterns, discover chords and notes up and down the neck of the banjo and learn songs. I do not know if those are the kind of things you might be looking for but I am enjoying this learning process. I hope this answers your questions. Let me know if you have other questions.

Phil


"Remember to enjoy the banjo journey." (Chris Quinn)

Jun 20, 2007 - 2:09:49 PM

293 posts since 4/26/2007

HEY BOYS!!!

Jacob

Jul 10, 2007 - 1:07:29 AM

1700 posts since 7/9/2007

Oops--just saw this was already mentioned by Phil from Germany, but---
Another group, and one that's a little more complicated (kinda jazzy) but loads of fun, is the I VI II V I as in 'Salty Dog Blues' or 'Don't Let Your Deal Go Down'. The 6-2-5-1 sequence also crops up in 'Dear Old Dixie' in the last few measures, and sometimes in the B part of 'Washington County', depending on who's playing it. Others can probably think of lots of additional tunes with these changes.

And another related group: The above 6-2-5-1 progression is part of a "circle of fifths", but there are several bluegrass tunes with a bigger chunk of the circle, usually in the B part, such as 'Rawhide' or 'Pickaway': III VI II V I

A lot of contest fiddle tunes use the circle of fifths--it lets them stretch out more. It's also very common in trad jazz tunes.

Dave in CA

Edited by - DaveInCA on 07/10/2007 01:15:11

Jul 18, 2007 - 11:03:29 PM

TJ

USA

182 posts since 5/23/2005

Since this thread is such a good one I couldn't help but chip in.

Mostly I've seen the sixth in any key being shown as the Minor for that key. But it is also true that the 2nd and 3rd are also minors in any given key.

A key goes something like this

1st-Major
2nd-Minor
3rd-Minor
4th-Major
5th-Major commonly played as a seven as well(sevens happen to fit in the note structure of the keys here)
6th-Minor
7th-Diminished(this is a whole nother story)
8th-Back home with your Major again!!!

These chords are all dictated by the makeup of triads within Key structures........wish I could play them all on the Banjo....I learned this stuff
yrs ago on the Geeetar.....


Jonathan

Jul 19, 2007 - 5:22:01 PM

90 posts since 6/21/2003

Kemo -- Are you bringing your Progressions list to Camp?

brazosriverpickers.com/
I'll get better if I play it one more time

Jul 19, 2007 - 5:37:52 PM

1125 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Young

Kemo -- Are you bringing your Progressions list to Camp?

brazosriverpickers.com/
I'll get better if I play it one more time



Yes - & there will be a "World's Longest Medley" contest at the end of the week. The winner will get..... What s/be the reward?????

...I am thinking that if you don't win ... no ride back to Houston for you.

Any suggestions?

Phil
Katy, TX



"Remember to enjoy the banjo journey." (Chris Quinn)

Edited by - Kemo Sabe on 07/19/2007 17:39:45

Jul 19, 2007 - 5:46:40 PM

90 posts since 6/21/2003

How about a ride home from Leveland

Bob

brazosriverpickers.com/
I'll get better if I play it one more time

Jul 21, 2007 - 7:36:48 PM

478 posts since 3/7/2006

another great list, Thanks Phil

Scott

( ) ===== : :

"Just start picking and we'll figure it out"

Aug 28, 2007 - 9:27:48 AM

90 posts since 6/21/2003

Phil -- Great addition of the 2 chord songs & "other" list !!

Bob

brazosriverpickers.com/
I'll get better if I play it one more time

Aug 28, 2007 - 10:21:44 AM

1125 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Young

Phil -- Great addition of the 2 chord songs & "other" list !!

Bob

brazosriverpickers.com/
I'll get better if I play it one more time



Bob - thanks for the note. I am glad you like those additions. Are you heading for Grapeland this weekend - who are the feature bands this year ...... and do you guys have an extra couch I can sleep on if I come up there?

Phil

"Remember to enjoy the banjo journey." (Chris Quinn)

Aug 30, 2007 - 12:13:11 PM

coelhoe

USA

1239 posts since 2/20/2007

Since banjo players don't seem to get out much, they miss one of the most important progressions in pop music, the I VIm IV V progression that has fed hundreds (thousands?) of pop and rock songs since the 1920's. In a similar vein is the I IIm V progression in a lot of newer country music, popular because it keeps the vocal range of a song within a sixth (do-re-mi-fa-so-la), a real plus for "singers" who may dynamically challenged.

Keep in mind the ragtime progressions, such as I (III) VI II V (Salty Dog, or Don't Let Your Deal Go Down, Goin' Back to Alabam)

A lot of country songs from the 40's and 50's that have migrated into bluegrass (Hank Williams stuff, for example) have a formulaic II chord in the second line. I say "formulaic" because it was a constant in song writing of the time. Likewise, the bridge or chorus was often built on the IV chord, as is the second part in most polkas. Finally, somewhere in the 60's, Nashville producers decided that a modulation (i.e. an actual change of key) gave a sense of movement and tension to country arrangements, and now most Nashville produced songs will go up a half-step after the bridge /chorus. Most male / female country duets are in two keys if both of the singers want a verse to themselves, but this usually has a kind of musical logic by going to the IV or V for the higher pitched voice. On the other hand, western swing bands seem to love working in unrelated modulations just for the fun of it. LIsten to Bob Wills original "New San Antonio Rose" for example.

Dennis

Aug 30, 2007 - 9:59:30 PM

lost pilgrim

Canada

21 posts since 9/26/2005

A couple of "Other" suggestions: Old Home Place (verse - I III7 IV I V I III7 IV I V; chorus -V I II7 V I III7 IV I V I) and Love, Please Come Home (I VII IV I IV I V I). These are two of my favourites.

One small quibble - in the master list you have Salty Dog and Don't Let Your Deal Go Down with I vi ii V I, where the lower case actually indicates minor chords. I see within the posts that the progression is indicated with all major chords, as is correct. (I know, I need a hobby, but I wouldn't want anyone to be confused.)

Great undertaking, and I'm sure that this was a great learning opportunity for you.

Scott

Ability to play the banjo soon places one in a social position to pick and choose from scores of social invitations. Everywhere, the banjoist is assured of a hearty welcome.
- from THE BANJO, 1927 pamphlet published by Gibson, Inc.

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