erikforgod - Posted - 05/10/2012:  10:45:22

saw this today...what are your thoughts from Deering:

There is a misconception in the banjo world about the relationship between the fingerboard/ tension hoop area on a banjo.

1. 
   Some banjo enthusiasts have proposed that the fingerboard should be firmly contacting the tension hoop for reasons of tone transfer.
   
   
   
   • 
     The lower part of the heel of the neck, the part that contacts the rim of the banjo, should be cut to fit precisely against the rim and held their very firmly.  This is where the tone transfer from the neck to the rim happens.
   
   
   • 
     There is no transfer of tone to the tension hoop because it is not a tone producing part of a banjo.
   
   
   • 
     The tension hoop’s job is to stretch the head.  The head is sort of like a big membrane which stretches…kind of like a shock absorber.  Anything that absorbs stretch or absorbs shock cannot produce a musical tone.  The membrane will vibrate, but the tension hoop is isolated from the large vibrating membrane of the head.  Since the tension hoop is isolated, anything that vibrates against it will not transfer sound.
   
   
   
   


2. 
   On Deering, Vega, and Tenbrooks banjos, we generally build a gap somewhere between one sixteenth of an inch to three sixteenths of an inch.  The gap can vary based on neck angle, tension hoop diameter, rim sanding, etc.
   

   
    

   
   
   
   
   • 
     Because there is no “tone transfer” between the neck and the tension hoop, the two parts work best when they don’t touch each other.
   
   
   • 
     There should be a gap between the tension hoop and the edge of the fingerboard.  The relative size of the gap is absolutely of no importance.
   
   
   • 
     If a neck is fitted to press against the tension hoop, the pressure against the ebony fingerboard could cause the fingerboard to split or crack if the pressure is firm enough.
   
   
   • 
     The fingerboard may swell with seasonal changes which would increase the pressure between the fingerboard and hoop enough to possibly cause a split or crack.
   
   
   
   


3. 
   Customers have noticed that some of our banjos appear to have a tension hoop in contact with the end of the fingerboard.  It is true that some tension hoops might be a little larger in diameter (generally these are our notched tension hoop) and therefore brush up against the fingerboard.  This is not a problem as long as the pressure isn’t too great.


4. 
   Some tension hoops are ever so slightly out of round and the oblong end might be on the finger board end.  This too is not an issue because the pressure on the fingerboard would be very small.


5. 
   Our Goodtime banjos were originally built to contact the tension hoop by the fingerboard.  But, this was because the early Goodtime banjos had a thinner tension hoop, and the little extra contact from the fingerboard helped support the thinner tension hoop.  The new Goodtime banjos have a thicker more rigid tension hoop and no longer really benefit from this close fit….but even the old Goodtime didn’t have a lot of pressure on the tension hoop.


6. 
   Another benefit to a little gap between the fingerboard and the tension hoop is really appreciated when changing the head on the banjo.
   
   
   
   • 
     If the neck is pushing on the tension hoop, removing the head means first removing the neck.  This is not a problem to do, but it is more work and involves re-setting the banjo neck in the proper position.
   
   
   • 
     The little gap means the tension hoop and the head can usually be lifted off easily and replaced easily, without removing the neck.
   
   
   
   

mbanza - Posted - 05/10/2012:  11:07:41

I see no documentation, only unsupported statements, furthermore, what they are actually describing is "what makes it quicker and easier for us?".  Time = money.  They will never sell me a banjo with a visible gap, let alone a 3/16 inch gap between the end of the fingerboard and the tension hoop.

When the strings are off, a few thousandths gap, no problem, but , again what they describe is, in my opinion, nothing more than an expedient to save time.

The Pope - Posted - 05/10/2012:  11:08:49

Robin Smith thinks there should be no touching of the tension hoop to the tone ring. He likes a business cards worth of space between them. YMMV...

beegee - Posted - 05/10/2012:  11:19:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Pope

Robin Smith thinks there should be no touching of the tension hoop to the tone ring. He likes a business cards worth of space between them. YMMV...

---

I agree. It can be less than a business card's thickness as long as it's not touching.

mbanza - Posted - 05/10/2012:  11:23:21

"Robin Smith thinks there should be no touching of the tension hoop to the tone ring. He likes a business cards worth of space between them." 

Does he address fingerboard and tension hoop?

erikforgod - Posted - 05/10/2012:  11:23:37

This is why I posted this...I didnt realise it was an issue. My Goodtime Crow just barely touches, but my Classic ( which has the new tension hoop, thicker mentioned ) it has a very teeny tiny sort a gap.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 05/10/2012:  11:39:28

I think there should be a slight gap to allow head tightening / loosening / changing.

The playing card rule sounds about right to me.

This gap, by the way is achieved by proper heel cutting on the neck - not by adjusting the coordinator rods - the heel should fit tightly against the rim, but not the tension hoop.

DeanT - Posted - 05/10/2012:  11:40:01

My Calico doesn’t touch with the strings off, and does touch with the string on. This tells me that string tension does move the hoop slightly, and also tells me that the neck just might be keeping the tension hoop from moving off center. Were talking very small movements, and very light touching. I don’t sweat it. My Gibson has a small gap, and doesn’t change with strings on or off.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 05/10/2012:  11:50:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by DeanT

My Calico doesn’t touch with the strings off, and does touch with the string on. This tells me that string tension does move the hoop slightly, and also tells me that the neck just might be keeping the tension hoop from moving off center. Were talking very small movements, and very light touching. I don’t sweat it. My Gibson has a small gap, and doesn’t change with strings on or off.

---

It shouldn't change with the strings on or off.

DeanT - Posted - 05/10/2012:  11:56:55

Neck to pot is soild, there are no issues. The gap is there, but very slight. After strings it’s not. It’s the difference between sliding paper in between, and not being able to. Magnifying glass reveals slight contact. It does change.

dickinnorwich - Posted - 05/10/2012:  12:29:37

O.K., I'll weigh in on this:

In my not-so-humble-opinion, one of the best ways to suppress the sound of the instrument is to have a pressure contact between the fingerboard and the tension hoop. It's like somebody leaning against a big ringing bell; you're absorbing the vibration of that excited system. It's not rocket science. The affect is easy to demonstrate; just pick a string and press against the tension hoop. That's why Deering says what they say. They know that in the tradeoff between the cosmetic objective (space represents "imperfection") and the acoustic objective, acoustics trumps cosmetics every time.    

Edited by - dickinnorwich on 05/10/2012 12:30:02

grm405 - Posted - 05/10/2012:  12:36:37

Tension hoops are larger than the tone ring.  Has to be to slip over the head and tone ring.  Depending on just how the head was installed, the tension hoop might be touching the fingerboard , or not.  There should be a gap either inside or outside the tension ring.  Where it occurs may vary as you tighten the head.  In either case, the hoop is free to slide past the neck as you pull the head down

In other words, I doubt that the visible gap between and fingerboard and hoop is important.  I suspect that in most cases it just doesn't matter.  As long as there is some gap on either side of the hoop, it will be free to move as you tighten the head.  If you have no gap between the hoop and neck, then try the gauge between the hoop and head.   If there is a gap, then you are OK.

Some of my banjos have the clearance on the outside of the hoop, some on the inside.  I suspect that If I install a new head, the location of the clearance might well change.  Hoops are pretty flexible compared to the forces exerted by the hooks.

Gerry

wfawley - Posted - 05/10/2012:  12:41:23

I'm gonna go with every vintage banjo in the house ... which has the fretboard touching the tension hoop. Sounds like somebody looking to excuse sloppy craftsmanship to me. They don't want to take the time to hand fit each neck, so they cook up a story as to "why this is normal" .... check all your old banjos and tell me if it's "normal" on those. It can be as much as 3/16 of an inch ... man ... that's more than a little clearance.



To my way of thinking ... everything except for the head of the banjo is a "receiver" of energy. A banjo's "tone" is dependent upon which parts are allowed to vibrate freely, and parts which absorb energy and act as a sort of filter. On a banjo that's got a loose fitting flange ... a loose fitting neck notch may be necessary if the rim is hard and the parts just don't conduct energy and vibration very well.



If that's their set up standard and is acceptable to them ... OK by me. Ithink there's a lot of hair splitting that goes on .... like the heel to rim fitting thing....which is totally overblown. Take a pre-war Gibson apart and see how close to full contact you have between the heel and the rim. Some of those are horribly constructed... yet most antiques are held in such high regard as to make the average person begin to think that "dead people are the only ones who ever did anything right".



It's up to each builder to decide what fits "how" to "what". If Greg's decided that the hoop shouldn't touch the neck on his banjos ... then so be it. That doesn't make it a bonafide standard that need be applied to every instrument across the trade.



Wyatt

Edited by - wfawley on 05/10/2012 12:43:00

mbanza - Posted - 05/10/2012:  12:43:08

Try this:  Using a pot with no neck, just the head tensioned nominally, place an activated tuning fork in the bridge location, note tone and volume.  Now repeat and as tone rings, touch the tension hoop at neck notch with 5.5 pound chunk of metal, note change if any.

Now repeat using a banjo that is strung up, note change in tone.

Edited by - mbanza on 05/10/2012 12:58:27

wfawley - Posted - 05/10/2012:  12:47:22

DickinNorwich ... I think you have it right, but there are instances where it may be preferable to lean against that bell. Banjos that are deep and which have incredibly strong fundamental notes, without a lot of excess ringiness tend to project better. I believe in the concept of the entire instrument vibrating ... and wouldn't want to isolate the energy to the pot.



Wyatt

Edited by - wfawley on 05/10/2012 12:48:07

tbfnyc - Posted - 05/10/2012:  12:59:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by mbanza

I see no documentation, only unsupported statements, furthermore, what they are actually describing is "what makes it quicker and easier for us?".  Time = money.  They will never sell me a banjo with a visible gap, let alone a 3/16 inch gap between the end of the fingerboard and the tension hoop.

When the strings are off, a few thousandths gap, no problem, but , again what they describe is, in my opinion, nothing more than an expedient to save time.

---

I agree. The neck is part of the whole tone system and should not be disconnected by a gap. My Gibson came with a small gap between the neck and the tension hoop. When I added a metal shim to bridge the gap the difference in tone was astonishing, the banjo came alive.

In Jim Mills' book on Mastertone banjos he says that the neck makes a big difference in the tone.

Roger Siminoff in his book on setting up a banjo says "The neck should fit flush and securely to the rim assembly. The end of the fingerboard should firmly contact the stretcher band". He goes on to say "Since one end of the strings is connected to the peghead, the neck plays a role in delivering some of the strings' energy to the pot assembly. For optimum transmission of the vibrations the end of the fretboard should contact the stretcher band".

Earls 5 - Posted - 05/10/2012:  13:05:31

Six of one and a half dozen of the other... big gap is a no no, breathing room is good. Kissing is ok but no pushing! Too tight is when you have resistance when tightening your head - man !

OK-4 - Posted - 05/10/2012:  13:09:18

Is there perhaps also a structural issue apart from possible sound effect? String tension pulls on the neck, and this exerts stress on the dowel joint (assuming you have a dowel). You can reduce this stress by placing the "fulcrum" as far from the dowel as possible. So, maybe fingerboard contact is a good thing since it relieves stress on the dowel joint, and if you have a gap you should shim it.

BanjoJAF - Posted - 05/10/2012:  14:10:50

Hello Erik:

My memory is not what it used to be (OK...its just plain awful ;~), but, I think J. Romero builds his banjos with a gap between the fingerboard and the pot.

I thought I heard him discuss this during the video interview he did with Craig Evans (AKA "Frailin" on BHO).

I just went to the Romero web site and looked at a few pictures of his completed banjos (they are truly beautiful works of art) and it sure looks like there is a sizeable gap between the bottom edge of the finger board and the tension hoop.

Maybe you could shoot him an email and ask him about it.

romerobanjos.com/11285/11285.html

Cheers! Jay

BanjoJAF - Posted - 05/10/2012:  14:30:50

Here is a link to another Romero video posted by darylcrisp.

banjohangout.org/topic/235531

There are a couple of spots in the video where the gap is visible.

Cheers! Jay

brunomathilda - Posted - 05/10/2012:  14:55:43

I like those discussions

pastorharry - Posted - 05/10/2012:  15:29:26

  From the email from Deering in question;

"The tension hoop’s job is to stretch the head.  The head is sort of like a big membrane which stretches…kind of like a shock absorber.  Anything that absorbs stretch or absorbs shock cannot produce a musical tone."

Really? So then why is there so much difference in the "Musical tone" of a banjo in relationship to a tighter or looser head? And why do I bother to tap tune my head to G or G flat on my openback if I can't hear a note when I tap....am I imagining things??

dickinnorwich said;

"The affect is easy to demonstrate; just pick a string and press against the tension hoop. "

Well, I tried this on my '78 Goldstar archtop and my Reiter Regent openback and there was really no change in volume or sustain. Both those banjos have a very tight fit of fingerboard to tension hoop, yet will slip right off when I go to change a head without having to loosen the neck. It's called perfect fit, the kind Wyatt Fawley talks about and does on every banjo. Maybe I should get out the bandsaw and carve a gap between the fretboard and the tension hoop?

Edited by - pastorharry on 05/10/2012 15:38:47

mark_neal - Posted - 05/10/2012:  16:32:53

Personally, I try to have a gap between the fingerboard and tension hoop but a very small one.  That way the owner can adjust the head with no interference and the head can be changed without taking the neck off.  Not a huge deal but easy enough to allow.  And as far as time saving goes or comments that it takes less craftsmanship to leave a gap, it seems to me that it requires more precision to leave a tiny, even gap than to have the fingerboard contact the tension hoop, but I must admit I was taught to leave a very fine gap and have simply held to that practice.  I just looked at an instrument off the shelf and the gap is less than the thickness of a sheet of paper.  It is visible but I can't even begin to fit my thinnest feeler gauge into it.

The Pope - Posted - 05/10/2012:  16:40:44

I earlier said: "Robin Smith thinks there should be no touching of the tension hoop to the tone ring."

I mispoke about that. Robin told me this: "Robin Smith thinks there should be no touching of the tension hoop to the fingerboard." He said part of the reason was acoustic & part so that you could change the head without removing/loosening the head. Mea culpa! 

Lachlan - Posted - 05/10/2012:  17:54:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by dickinnorwich

O.K., I'll weigh in on this:

In my not-so-humble-opinion, one of the best ways to suppress the sound of the instrument is to have a pressure contact between the fingerboard and the tension hoop. It's like somebody leaning against a big ringing bell; you're absorbing the vibration of that excited system. It's not rocket science. The affect is easy to demonstrate; just pick a string and press against the tension hoop. That's why Deering says what they say. They know that in the tradeoff between the cosmetic objective (space represents "imperfection") and the acoustic objective, acoustics trumps cosmetics every time.    

---

Lachlan - Posted - 05/10/2012:  17:57:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Pope

I earlier said: "Robin Smith thinks there should be no touching of the tension hoop to the tone ring."

I mispoke about that. Robin told me this: "Robin Smith thinks there should be no touching of the tension hoop to the fingerboard." He said part of the reason was acoustic & part so that you could change the head without removing/loosening the head. Mea culpa! 

---

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 05/10/2012:  18:02:30

Simple way for you to check your opinion... Take a couple round toothpicks, their maple... Flatten them out to enter the gap... lightly push one in between on each side of the neck...
Then check the sound... AAAHHH Ha...

Lachlan - Posted - 05/10/2012:  18:05:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Pope

I earlier said: "Robin Smith thinks there should be no touching of the tension hoop to the tone ring."

I mispoke about that. Robin told me this: "Robin Smith thinks there should be no touching of the tension hoop to the fingerboard." He said part of the reason was acoustic & part so that you could change the head without removing/loosening the head. Mea culpa! 

---

wuzapicker - Posted - 05/10/2012:  18:30:55

Well this is probably one of those things I'll have to do differently this time around. I've built 5 necks for my own use and for each of them, the fingerboard touches the tension hoop. The necks are also well fitted to their rims I'll have a chance within the next few months to change my errant ways - or not maybe.

Actually, among my vintage tenor banjos, my Paramount Leader shows a visible 1/16" clear between the fingerboard and the tension hoop.

On my Paramount Style A tenor (which is an early sample) the fingerboard is carved not only to contact the tension hoop but to overlap the low outer parapet of the top grooved hoop. The end of the fingerboard hides the hoop's groove at the neck joint. I've seen this on some Orpheum banjos also.

My Epiphone Alhambra Recording tenor clearly has the maple fingerboard planted firmly against the tension hoop. The maple is covered with MOTS. That tension hoop is side grooved and stamped E2.

So, with the samples presently at hand, I can't prove that vintage manufacturers were of any unanimous opinion regarding this question. Each of those banjos when new were fitted with hide heads and refitted with hide heads (I can tell by the knife marks inside the tension hoop). So, the hide head postulation seems moot.

On my 2000 Gibson RB3 and my 1976 Baldwin Ode 6505CSR the fingerboards firmly contact the tension hoop. Those banjos were never at any time equipped with a hide head.

Thus given the material evidence, the debate seems to be over a matter of opinion - like so many other elements of banjo mythology.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 05/10/2012:  20:08:32

Delete.. misprint.. dang machine..  Oh well, nobody reads anyway... 

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 05/10/2012 20:10:24

dobroman - Posted - 05/10/2012:  20:08:35

No, the finger board should not touch the hoop. How do you know the neck was cut right and is not laying on the hoop when you tighten down the lags. Take a piece of the string envelope. It should pass freely between the hoop and the neck at the hoop for a proper neck fit.

mbanza - Posted - 05/11/2012:  07:11:30

From earlier:  "Try this:  Using a pot with no neck, just the head tensioned nominally, place an activated tuning fork in the bridge location, note tone and volume.  Now repeat and as tone rings, touch the tension hoop at neck notch with 5.5 pound chunk of metal, note change if any."

"Now repeat using a banjo that is strung up, note change in tone."

Having done this with five orphan pots and five assembled banjos; I could hear no change in tone or volume, which suggests that the issue is entirely cosmetic.

Kenneth Logdsdon suggests "Simple way for you to check your opinion... Take a couple round toothpicks, their maple... Flatten them out to enter the gap... lightly push one in between on each side of the neck...

Then check the sound... AAAHHH Ha..."   Good idea, worth doing, but AAAHHH Ha ...what?  Does it make a difference or not?  Try it and see.

I consider the fit of fingerboard to tension hoop as an indication of attention to detail and commitment to quality by the maker.  Big visible gap, no thanks.  Inconspicuous gap or light contact, fine.

The Pope - Posted - 05/11/2012:  10:55:33

I said "He said part of the reason was acoustic & part so that you could change the head without removing/loosening the head."

Should have been neck, not head. Thanks, Lachlan, for pointing that out for all to see. I think everyone knew what I was talking about...

Mopick - Posted - 05/11/2012:  13:19:48

It's been a couple of years ago now that Chris Cioffi worked on my banjo.  It just gets better and better.  One of the things he did was a neck set.  

Before Chris' work you could see end grain of my fingerboard, and the height of the fingerboard was about level with the top of the tension hoop.  This was Gibson's set up.

After Chris worked on it you see no end grain and the neck is level with the notch in the tension band.  There is a small gap between the finger board and the tension hoop, I'd say you could slip the string envelope paper in there.  Those are new frets too.

There was a gap between the neck and the flange before.  Chris reset the neck for a .656 bridge.

After Chris got through the neck and flange is a perfect fit.  

And the neck is tight against the rim.  This really brought out the Low end...the Gibson 4th string growl.  My banjo is great now.  It's a 1993 RB-3 reissue (Grich era).  It notes true all the way up the neck and is clear as a bell.

Sighting up the neck before and after.  Before you could see end grain of the fingerboard.  Everything looked kind of crooked.  Afterward....well you can see.  Chris said all these things affect tone.  

Chris lives in Springfield TN and he used to work for Steve at Huber.   He has his own shop now.  Thanks Chris!

Edited by - Mopick on 05/11/2012 13:27:37

Lachlan - Posted - 05/11/2012:  15:25:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Pope

Thanks, Lachlan, for pointing that out for all to see. I think everyone knew what I was talking about...

---