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Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/14/2011: 20:56:24
Mirek, I was talking about distinguishing between Classical music (melodic minor) and Celtic tradition (modes). Re-read my post please. I already answered you, and no hard feelings. It's about the music, though I love your writing style!
Warmest wishes,
Tom
peter somerville - Posted - 05/14/2011: 23:42:24
- a ripper Tom! i heard it first years ago, along with his other great hits 'be prepared'. 'poisoning pigeons in the park' etc
Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/15/2011: 17:52:11
Brilliant stuff, Chris. I love these!
Irreverence is a vital attribute of the untamable Celtic imagination. Songs and tunes are infinitely transformable and being a musical shape-shifter keeps the music from growing rigid and getting stale. Videos such as these remind us to have fun, and not to take ourselves or the music so seriously.
Cheap Flights (the last video) has to be seen the whole way through for the punch line. Thanks for posting! 
Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/16/2011: 03:25:55
quote:
Originally posted by peter somerville
- a ripper Tom! i heard it first years ago, along with his other great hits 'be prepared'. 'poisoning pigeons in the park' etc
Peter, I agree, Tom Lehrer’s songs are gas. Thank you for introducing the discussion about 'The Star of Munster' and the melodic minor scale used in the 1903 O'Neill's setting (key of C). You deserve full credit for finding, posting and making good use of this old tune setting.
Peter, you know I am not criticizing you for bringing this interesting setting to light. You began this important discussion, and no one can hijack, make a personal attack, or take credit for your considerable contributions to this thread. Let’s have no hijacking or trolling here and let’s stay on topic.
In many fine collections, on both sides of the Atlantic, there has been an historic tendency by classically trained musicians to make Celtic modes conform to the Classical major-minor system. It's something that careful students of Celtic music need to be made aware of since tunes often use gapped scales (pentatonic and hexatonic) and stick to modal organization, generally using the Ionian (major), Mixolydian, Dorian and Aeolian modes. The Phrygian mode is used much less frequently, found in old Cornish and Breton songs (not in English).
It is always confusing to make Irish or Celtic modal tunes fit into Classical models, though there has been a great tendency to do so by dedicated transcribers going all the way back to Edward Bunting’s Ancient Music of Ireland.
There’s a lot of music history which I need not go into here, but as far back as 1796 and as late as 1840, Bunting “corrected” Irish airs (tunes) according to Classical music rules.
In his manuscripts, Bunting kept titles (in English and Irish) and painstakingly mapped out the notes played by the harpers of the day, also including the venerated works of Turlough Carolan (O’Carolan). Ironically, Bunting observed that Carolan, whom he thought a great composer, incorporated too much from non-Irish sources.
So, the interesting problem of transcribing Irish and Celtic tunes and keeping them modal has been an ongoing struggle since the very first tune collections, going all the way back to the classically trained Edward Bunting, who deserves credit and respect for his seminal work in the field.
Personal asides need not come into it: Irish, Scottish and other traditional players are correct to point out that many revered collections, old and new, suffer from apparent shortcomings in transcription, modifying notes to fit into Classical rules, using questionable key signatures, failing to appreciate modal organization, and over-ornamenting or superimposing regional (especially Sligo-fiddle) ornamentation on top of melodies that have other regional and local origins.
It’s a tricky business transcribing tunes with accuracy and consistency. Generic settings, e.g., as are found in The Session, are helpful but not the final answer either.
Tom 
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 05/16/2011 03:38:33
Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/16/2011: 15:45:55
Okay, speaking of 'The Star of Munster' in its typical modal form: I pulled this manuscript from my first book, 25 Traditional Irish & Celtic Tunes for the Bluegrass Banjo Player, self-published in 1994. This book was expanded upon and evolved into Mel Bay's Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo (1998).
It's a fairly straight-ahead version of the old reel with ornamentation I favored at the time. I still play it this way, though I've added more variations and often jam out on it and bend strings. Okay, I rock out on it; it's just fun to do that.
Notice the variation in the second part, involving triplets on the open first string. Use whatever right-hand fingerings you prefer. I still like the punchiness of TITI, not that I always stick to it. I recorded it for the Mel Bay CD.
This tune works nicely on 5-string banjo (G tuning) because A Dorian mode uses the same notes as G Major (Ionian), the tonal center being A. Some tunes have more than one tonal center, aka complex tonality.
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peter somerville - Posted - 05/17/2011: 04:21:39
Tom, Mirek and others interested in this discussion about modes, have you read the article by Ken Perlman in May's banjo newsletter? 'Understanding "Modal" Tunes'. i think it goes along with your views on the subject Tom. It's a good read. it seems to be impossible to put many tunes clearly in one particular mode or apply classical scales such as melodic minor and so on. all very mysterious!
and while we're still on 'star of munster', i found my cd of Martin Hayes which has a beautiful version - just solo fiddle and he plays it in Gm. He plays lots of variations to the basic melody.
so much to learn!
Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/17/2011: 13:01:09
Wow, I love the synchronicity of that because Ken Perlman's work has had a profound influence on my thinking and playing, though our playing techniques differ greatly.
I just found a relevant thread in The Session about backing A Dorian tunes, and what to do with 'The Star of Munster' (with F#) begins the discussion: Help with Keys: A Dorian.
We are barely scratching below the surface here in BHO, as compared to the modal and chord discussion there. Moving the tune to G Dorian (still not exactly Gm) doesn't change the approach to backing tunes tastefully while not stepping on melody players. Martin Hayes, G “minor”, great spot! But don't think that he doesn't also play it in A Dorian back in Miltown Malbay, Co. Clare.
As in bluegrass and old-time, a similar traditional v. progressive debate happens all the time in Celtic music.
I don't get involved in “proper chord” or tune-backing debates, as much as I can help it. For me, it's about playing the tunes and leaving those types of debates for tune backers. Still, I look for good discussions on these matters and try to take all on board. Again: Help with Keys: A Dorian.
You're right Peter, mystery and experience is key: there's so much more to play beyond stiff, didactic or chromatic approaches.
KidfromDeliverance - Posted - 05/17/2011: 15:32:36
I'm enjoying getting my feet wet with this Celtic stuff. This thread is helpful, if a tad intimidating - one gets the idea that several years at a music conservatory, a decade or two of intense exposure to as many live performances as can be attended, plus a favorable application of The Force are needed before the intricacies of the music can begin to be appreciated.
I only have bluegrass to compare it with, and I don't mind having to learn a new approach, though I am somewhat mystified as to the topic of "back up" at least as far as Tom approaches it. His book does give a few techniques one might use (if one must), though on the whole (in the book and in this discussion) he seems to treat it like the "square peg in a round hole", what with the complex tonalities, etc. It's a little disconcerting to be given back-up patterns to use, but no chords in the tab. I can go along with having to take a new kind of approach, if this is really how it is - I'm just not sure how to go about it. Is it the case with this music that any chord progression one might find for a tune is disputable, or open to the player's whim? Do I just find a chord progression for a tune I'd like to learn, but treat as something I might change as I get more familiar with it? Or is it just as well to learn and play the melody only - since the chords change so often, compared to standard bluegrass, one may as well just play the tune, I guess. But that's a great thing about bluegrass, that it's possible to join in on songs you don't know.
Anyway, Tom may want to comment, or anyone else who might appreciate where I'm at.
peter somerville - Posted - 05/17/2011: 16:18:09
Hi KfD, Tom's the man but i'll put in my 2 cent's worth. i haven't had much luck trying to play back up on banjo at celtic sessions so I usually stick to trying to play the tune. As you've heard the chords seem to vary a lot. it seems there's often more improvisation with the chords than the melody, the reverse of bluegrass. Occasionally i can find a simple counter melody on the lower notes for a reel. Polkas don't get played much but here in Australia they're more common and are much more bluegrass style banjo friendly i think.
we'll might for Tom to give a more enlightened answer! Meanwhile i'll be in the shed playing Star of Munster.
KidfromDeliverance - Posted - 05/17/2011: 17:30:49
Thanks, Peter. That's the idea I'm getting; it's just that it's going the other direction from my continuing education in BG. Maybe that's good, in a way. I may have to put aside the notion that I ought to be able to join in on anything, to learning to play a lot of different melodies, and staying out when I don't know one. It does seem more natural, I suppose, to play the same thing as the others you're with, without having to shift between "back up" and "lead" all the time. I hear that's what they do in "old time" jams as well.
Patrick
g3zdm - Posted - 05/18/2011: 03:18:14
I was given advice really early on after I started joining Celtic sessions with my 5-string banjo; "don't attempt to play chord backup unless there are at least 5 other folks playing a specific tune (in which case you can get away with it)".
That advice came from 2 semi-pro fiddlers and spurred me onto nearly always going for the melody.
Indeed some of the fiddlers switch to chord chops/plucks (and may switch to mandolin) themselves if we have multiple fiddlers present on a set.
quote:
Originally posted by peter somerville
Hi KfD, Tom's the man but i'll put in my 2 cent's worth. i haven't had much luck trying to play back up on banjo at celtic sessions so I usually stick to trying to play the tune. As you've heard the chords seem to vary a lot. it seems there's often more improvisation with the chords than the melody, the reverse of bluegrass. Occasionally i can find a simple counter melody on the lower notes for a reel. Polkas don't get played much but here in Australia they're more common and are much more bluegrass style banjo friendly i think.
we'll might for Tom to give a more enlightened answer! Meanwhile i'll be in the shed playing Star of Munster.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/18/2011: 04:33:00
Patrick wrote: “Or is it just as well to learn and play the melody only – since the chords change so often, compared to standard bluegrass, one may as well just play the tune, I guess. But that's a great thing about bluegrass; that it's possible to join in on songs you don't know.”
Patrick, I feel your pain, and I’m sorry about this thread seeming intimidating or somehow inaccessible, and that could be my fault, sorry. It’s tricky business and I hope to lead people down the right path here. People tend to write with a lot of hidden assumptions about Celtic music, so I try to spot and get inside them, and it's not easy, or always fun. We can always agree to disagree.
In Celtic, especially Irish and Scottish traditional music, chords are not standardized, anywhere, though the impulse to standardize them, or alternatively, to delve into jazz-like “chord substitution” is great among knowledgeable musicians who have training in other styles and traditions.
Please follow this thread link and consider what I already posted from The Session – let’s all get on the same page here: Help with Keys: A Dorian.
These folks know what they’re talking about, and they’re been doing this for a long time – from The Session thread link (from above):
“‘Yes, listening away and picking it up that way is fine for some but I would much rather know why it works or why it doesn't work.’
The problem with that is that ‘why it works or why it doesn't work’ is purely subjective. The tradition is of single line melodies that often contradict standard western harmonic theory. For example, the difference between an accidental and a modulation in standard western harmonic theory is clear, but because it is rarely clear with diddley tunes, it renders both terms meaningless. There are many more examples, not least the concept of rootless tunes ... And this is before we've even considered the use of notes in between notes, for example, all that priceless space in between C nat and C sharp that is so extensively used.
So strumming to Irish diddley tunes with a fretted instrument is an exercise in shoehorning one traditional harmonic system onto another which is largely alien to it. And this is why there's so much disagreement. It's a work-in-progress.
And, of course, don't just think of it as compromising standard western harmonic theory to fit with diddley tunes. For it to work at all, the diddley tunes have to be compromised also.
As I said at the start, you've got a lot of listening to do ... because there ain't no rule book for you to study.”
So Patrick, good man yourself, you are on the right track and you’re asking perfectly sound questions from what seems a bluegrass angle, or similar perspective.
I respect your knowledge and willingness to ask tough questions. One has to be tough about this, because the music won’t bow to musical outsider’s whims. I know that may sound a tad harsh, but it’s the truth. One could force it and try make it something else, but it would always revert back to the core of the tradition. One can always play this music from outside the tradition. I have no problem with that either.
Musical style is culture; regional style is subculture. Trying to change traditional style from outside the culture or musical subculture is pure folly, persisting in error and wooden-headedness. In The Guns of August, Barbara Tuchman writes about governments, and it applies here:
“Wooden-headedness, the source of self-deception, is a factor that plays a remarkably large role in government. It consists of assessing a situation in terms of preconceived fixed notions while ignoring or rejecting any contrary signs. It is acting according to wish while not allowing oneself to be deflected by the facts.”
A word to the wise: We must always be careful about asking leading questions that frame stylistic issues from a bluegrass or old-time perspective (bias). Again, it’s just about context, about knowing the style from inside the tradition. One has to learn about accompaniment from within the idiom.
So Patrick back to you: this ain’t bluegrass, and that’s the great thing about it. If you’re a true player, you can’t fake tunes; you have to know them note-for-note. If you’re a tune backer, you still have to know the tunes, virtually note-for-note, and you cannot join in on tunes you don’t know without seriously testing the patience of players who have put in the time, who are dedicated to the music, and who know better. Imagine a guy showing up with a Strat to a bluegrass jam, plugging in and playing blues licks and power chords (dyads) over fiddle tunes like ‘Jerusalem Ridge’, which, interestingly, has found its way into pipers’ and fiddlers’ repertoires here in Ireland!
The back-up section, let’s be clear, is only two pages out of 182, because it’s tangential to learning the tunes (101) – the focus of my Mel Bay Celtic book and CD. On the recording I used piano, guitar and bodhrán for back-up, not 5-string banjo, which is not a favored instrument for back-up in trad, by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, it can be used, but it's not a great idea, in my opinion.
Banjos would make poor back-up instruments at sessions because they would distract too much from the melody as played on subtle lead instruments like the flute, fiddle and tin whistle. On the other hand, banjos make great melody instruments because they convey tunes with loudness, energy and passion, especially when they are played well.
5-string banjo players would take over and kill trad sessions if they jumped in playing bluegrass back-up, having little session etiquette or experience playing or backing tunes from within the tradition.
I’ve been there Patrick: if all this seems intimidating about back-up just by reading about it, imagine what it is like if you’re rolling merrily along at a session, playing streamlined JD Crowe back-up to a reel in G, and people are shooting you dirty looks and shaking their heads, even asking you to stop ruining the session! It happened to me in the mid-eighties, early days, when I didn't know that you couldn’t play Scruggs-style back-up and ‘Little Maggie’ at an Irish session, and be appreciated. It’s ‘Drowsy Maggie’ I was told. Oops I eventually had to get up and leave. Then I did some homework and learned a little something about the tradition.
It took me one spring and summer of woodshedding on tunes, hanging in Irish pubs with trad players, listening to tunes, hearing stories, getting lessons in manners, taping and drinking pints of Guinness, in order to join sessions somewhat credibly, and it took a few years to be able to hang with the more seasoned players at the top sessions in NYC, and back in Ireland, and still, I had a weak tune vocabulary. You almost have to be encyclopedic, just to hang. 
I still have a lot to learn and I am continually humbled by the seasoned fiddlers and flute players I meet around Ireland. I can live with that, and it’s great always having beginner’s mind!
So what’s the goal if you want to play inside the tradition? Well, one has to learn scores of tunes, note for note, not a BHO baby shortlist of twenty Irish fiddle tunes. That may sound harsh, mean or intimidating, I know, but that's the game here. If anyone tells you that at trad sessions it’s perfectly okay to limit oneself to back-up on 5-string banjo, they're dreaming, unless one can sing like a Luke Kelly, who played 5-string banjo and accompanied himself sparingly, when he did. But there’s only one Lukey!
Bluegrass back-up sounds jazzy and out of context to traditional players, lol, I mean Irish or Scottish trad players, and Celtic musicians in general. It comes from a different musical culture, and while it might be traditional and totally in the pocket for bluegrass, it’s out of order for the seisiún ceoil (music session). Trust me on that!
If it’s a crossover or fusion style you want to play, do whatever you want, but don’t call it Irish traditional or Scottish traditional music (ITM or STM), or trad. “Trad” is an ambiguous term, depending on musical subculture and culture. It’s used for jazz and for bluegrass, and then some.
“Celtic Music”, including music from the Celtic Diaspora, is a much looser term, and almost anything goes. Music from Celtica, might even include ‘The Unicorn Song’ or ‘Puff, the Magic Dragon’ merging into an Irish-sounding reel. This post is longer than what I’d written about backing tunes in my book, lol!
Thank you for reading and considering my posts, everybody. So many tunes, so little time. Now, I have another Celtic book/CD to finish. Yikes!
Thank you Patrick for being on the case!
Tom
peter somerville - Posted - 05/18/2011: 05:00:54
a great read as usual Tom. I wonder what your next book will be about exactly?
Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/18/2011: 11:54:33
Diddley tunes (jigs and reels), with totally optional Rory Gallagher chords, of course!
Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/18/2011: 12:50:33
It's not Rory Gallagher, but just as cool.
Playing tunes is about fun, entertainment, and playing like you mean it:
I give you Richard Thompson singing and playing 'She Moved Through the Fair'.
Notice how he handles the audience, his instrument, and how he's in the moment.
Tom
KidfromDeliverance - Posted - 05/18/2011: 13:07:38
Thanks, Tom. I'll have to go over your response more carefully later. A quick question: would your point about the banjo's suitability as a Celtic/Irish music backup instrument also be true for guitar, or not? I brought up the topic with the guy who plays guitar for the local Celtic group, who said he was mainly playing rhythm (their act isn't hard-core Celtic, though - more of a mixture of Celtic, bluegrass, "folk"; they didn't seem put off at all the couple of times I sat in and offered up my Scruggs vamping, which was all really knew to do, though I kept it low).
So, the gist is, learn the tunes - got it! I'll focus on the ones in the local group's set list to start, plus anything from your book or elsewhere that strikes my fancy. Can't stop playing "Planxty Irwin" - what a lovely tune! You're right, bluegrass-style back-up could really ruin something like that.
Patrick
Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/18/2011: 13:18:00
I think it boils down to single-line melody, with or without lyrics. That's the core of melodic tradition in Celtic music. This is very moving.
She Moved Through the Fair by Anne Briggs.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/19/2011: 01:44:50
quote:
Originally posted by KidfromDeliverance
Thanks, Tom. I'll have to go over your response more carefully later. A quick question: would your point about the banjo's suitability as a Celtic/Irish music backup instrument also be true for guitar, or not? I brought up the topic with the guy who plays guitar for the local Celtic group, who said he was mainly playing rhythm (their act isn't hard-core Celtic, though - more of a mixture of Celtic, bluegrass, "folk"; they didn't seem put off at all the couple of times I sat in and offered up my Scruggs vamping, which was all really knew to do, though I kept it low).
So, the gist is, learn the tunes - got it! I'll focus on the ones in the local group's set list to start, plus anything from your book or elsewhere that strikes my fancy. Can't stop playing "Planxty Irwin" - what a lovely tune! You're right, bluegrass-style back-up could really ruin something like that.
Patrick
Patrick, the guitar, in the right hands, is a lovely and versatile accompaniment instrument, though it has met with some resistance in traditional quarters, and still is held suspect at sessions, with a one-guitarist per session rule. That's because there are too many bludgeon-strummers out there who know a few chords and keys, who play the same horrible patterns, ruining session because they don't know the tunes. They blow it for the good guitarists who know how to back tunes tastefully and sensitively.
At any rate, guitar is here to stay: Legendary and top players (some deceased) include: "Peerie" Willie Johnson (Shetland), Tony McManus (Scottish), Dennis Cahill (Irish), Arty McGlynn (Irish), Manus Lunny (Irish/Scottish/Celtic), Stephen Cooney (Irish), Dick Gaughan (Scottish), Sarah McQuaid (Irish, a friend of mine, who wrote the DADGAD book), John Doyle (Irish, whom I knew in NY), Dave MacIsaac (Cape Breton), Tony Cuffe (Scottish), Paul McSherry (Irish), Ron Kavana (Irish, multi-instrumentalist, a drinking and session buddy), and the list goes on and on
Patrick, if you're doing Scruggs-vamping in the background, play softly. It tends to interfere with the flow of the music and can stick out like a military or German Oom-Pah rhythm. It's not hip for backing tunes, though technically, you could say that it works with strict 2/4 or 4/4 rhythm. But that's the stiff approach that you read about on BHO. Don't attempt to back slip jigs: learn them. Backing them is folly unless you know them intimately, and at that stage, you can go the distance and learn to play them note-for-note. Don't go the Oom-Pah, Oom-Pah-Pah route in general, lol.
If you must back tunes at all, you're better off rolling steadily, staying on and mixing roots, unisons (first, second and fifth strings), fifths (first and second string) and octaves (first and fourth string), where you can hear more experienced backers playing chords, partial chords and counter-melodies. Latching onto a steady bodhrán player or guitarist will keep the banjo from poking out and taking away from the tunes, if you're playing it in rhythmic-harmonic rolling fashion. This gets boring after a while, and it's more disguising the banjo than adding to the music.
So, we're back to learning tunes, one at a time.
KidfromDeliverance - Posted - 05/19/2011: 12:50:57
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
Patrick, if you're doing Scruggs-vamping in the background, play softly.
I'll give it a shot. The patterns you give are simple enough; I just have to put them to practical use, make it second-nature (and recognize when to use what). I'll vamp only as a last resort. I can probably get away with picking out "Planxty" when the group takes a break tonight; I don't think anyone will mind.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/19/2011: 14:10:33
A couple of other mighty guitar backers in Irish and Celtic music, whom I left out, are Zan McLeod, who recorded with BHO member Chris Grotewohl: Under the Influence. This is mighty stuff! Zan also play amazing Irish bouzouki and has a DVD. He's jazzing out more nowadays, but he is extremely well-grounded in traditional music and can play Southern Rock too! Legend!
Another monster player who knows how to back tunes is multi-instrumentalist Gabriel Donohue from Athenry, Co. Galway. I recorded with Gabriel for my Mel Bay Celtic CD, and here's an example of him on what sounds to me like Shetland/Cape Breton-style guitar, the old Scottish/Irish tune: ‘banjohangout.org%2Fmyha...cID%3D7248">The Mason’s Apron’. Gabriel is some mensch, straightforward, and known for making things up on the fly, things that are then scored by trained classical engravers and presented to him in notation for him to repeat later with the orchestra, but he just makes it up again the next time around – too funny, e.g., the Boston Pops Orchestra: The Celtic Album. “An extraordinary guitarist.” – Paddy Maloney (The Chieftains)
I put in the Dubliner’s (Barney McKenna) variation, and I kept it to just three parts. The triplets may seem insane for bluegrass, but they’re standard for the tune, and this version is fairly tame, believe it or not. I kept it mercifully short and simple. This tune is overplayed, though not in bluegrass, and it works as a bluegrass tune, much like ‘Devil’s Dream’.
Though I recorded it in A, it’s perfectly fine to play it in G, and it could be more accessible to flute players that way, at tempo. Matt Molloy switches to G when he takes off on it. Fiddler Sean McGuire plays 12 parts, and trad players play from two up to seven parts. It’s sick, I know. To tell the truth: I just make up parts and jam out on it, because I never know what other people are going to play. I sometimes sneak in pieces of ‘Devil’s Dream’, whatever seem appropriate in the moment, as countermelody. It’s a full-tilt-showpiece tune so it can be scrupulously destroyed any number of ways.
Tom
peter somerville - Posted - 05/28/2011: 20:30:36
we've probably run out of things to say about 'star of munster' but here's my attempt at playing it. it's still pretty rough but i'll go insane if attempt anymore. it's a mixture of sheet music, Tom's version, some ideas from Martin Hayes and my attempt to banjoize' it a bit with some rolls etc.
jphulme - Posted - 05/28/2011: 21:48:57
Nicely done Peter. I've been working on The wind that shakes the barley from Bela's picking styles dvd. I'm finding the single string triplets using forward roll on the 3rd and 2nd strings the biggest challenge. It seems that my middle finger only wants to pluck the 1st string! But I'm getting there. I'll try Star of Munster next.
peter somerville - Posted - 05/29/2011: 00:51:35
hi JP, i've been using my middle on the 2nd so much that it's become quite easy, even the 3rd string in star of munster, so i don't think it's hard, just repetition. Don't know if you've been following this thread much but Tom Hanway is the man if you want to get into celtic tunes, his book is essential!
banjoes - Posted - 05/31/2011: 12:13:40
Interesting post and wonderful music, but - at the risk of being thought a pedant - the notion of a specifically 'Celtic' identity is generally considered a 19th century conflation of Livy's histories (for whom Celt and Gaul were interchangeable), several different (Q &P) languages of 'Indo-European' derivation and Iron Age 'La Tene' decorative 'art' styles, which, incidentally barely made it from Switzerland to the Celtic heartland of Ireland. The only connection between these geographically and temporally disparate phenomena was in the imagination of romantic Victorian story-tellers. Having said this, people (we) construct identities all the time and there's nothing wrong with that. But, if we were to discuss national, regional or local styles of playing or variations of tunes that very often had/have international currency it might be more meaningful?
Regards
KidfromDeliverance - Posted - 06/01/2011: 10:32:06
quote:
Originally posted by banjoes
Interesting post and wonderful music, but - at the risk of being thought a pedant - the notion of a specifically 'Celtic' identity is generally considered a 19th century conflation of Livy's histories (for whom Celt and Gaul were interchangeable), several different (Q &P) languages of 'Indo-European' derivation and Iron Age 'La Tene' decorative 'art' styles, which, incidentally barely made it from Switzerland to the Celtic heartland of Ireland. The only connection between these geographically and temporally disparate phenomena was in the imagination of romantic Victorian story-tellers. Having said this, people (we) construct identities all the time and there's nothing wrong with that. But, if we were to discuss national, regional or local styles of playing or variations of tunes that very often had/have international currency it might be more meaningful?
Regards
Yes, I've said that many times . . .
AllanJ - Posted - 06/03/2011: 14:57:13
I've got some sympathy with what Banjoes says; it seems like hard work to find elements that tie together the music of several geographically separated areas, each with their own history and traditions. A more important distinction for me is tunes that I can play vs. tunes that are waiting to be learnt.
Just for fun I've added a new tab 'Merrily Kissed the Quaker' - classic Irish tune which (possibly) originated in England...
Enjoy
Allan
g3zdm - Posted - 06/03/2011: 21:23:42
Good tune - which I know in full as "Merrily kissed the quaker's wife"; goes well with Dingle Regatta, another 3 part tune that is also played in English sessions.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 06/07/2011: 02:06:33
Nice points above: I hear ye loud and clear.
Participating in a Celtic heritage, any of them, e.g., Breton, Welsh, Scottish, Manx, Irish, et al., may involve visiting Celtic lands, playing tunes with locals, learning a dance, learning some tunes, or even learning some words in the native tongue, though many self-assured speakers wouldn't bother themselves to go that far.
It would be facile or even miserable to disregard Celtic heritage, using an old European imperial language while holding to anglicized place names for a subdued Celtic locality or language, the latter a still vital source of Celtic identity.
Here's a very savvy article about the cultural definition of the term “Celtic”– not for folks with abiding cultural prejudice or self-imposed attention deficit (SIAD):
Beir bua agus beannacht,
Tom
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 06/07/2011 02:15:44
AllanJ - Posted - 06/07/2011: 06:47:09
An interesting topic to discuss, but perhaps on another forum. As they say in Wales " 's dim ots"..
Now let's get back to the music!
Allan
peter somerville - Posted - 06/08/2011: 18:56:59
Yes Allan, back to music! here's and Mp3 of Merrily Kiss the Q W. it's pretty similar to your tab. a very common tune played at Australian bush dances so this seems to be the way it's played here. Often, if there's at least 2 people playing the melody, someone will play a harmony on the 2nd part, so I've done it myself here, also some harmony notes in the 3 rd part as well, it seems to be my thing to do this. Despite just putting some new frets in my deering my fingers still aren't working as well as I'd like but I keep persisting anyway.
Banjowen - Posted - 06/10/2011: 07:02:20
Seeing as there seems to be a growing interest in playing Celtic music on the 5 string banjo as well as on the tenor i've started a Celtic Banjo group, it's to cover melodic, single string, frailing, clawhammer, Scruggs, tenor banjo, plectrum banjo etc, the emphasis being on Celtic music, anyone interested in joining you'd be more than welcome here's a link :- banjohangout.org/group/celticbanjo I'd be very grateful for your input.
BDCA - Posted - 06/10/2011: 07:35:55
quote:
Originally posted by banjoes
Interesting post and wonderful music, but - at the risk of being thought a pedant - the notion of a specifically 'Celtic' identity is generally considered a 19th century conflation of Livy's histories (for whom Celt and Gaul were interchangeable), several different (Q &P) languages of 'Indo-European' derivation and Iron Age 'La Tene' decorative 'art' styles, which, incidentally barely made it from Switzerland to the Celtic heartland of Ireland. The only connection between these geographically and temporally disparate phenomena was in the imagination of romantic Victorian story-tellers. Having said this, people (we) construct identities all the time and there's nothing wrong with that. But, if we were to discuss national, regional or local styles of playing or variations of tunes that very often had/have international currency it might be more meaningful?
Regards
A recent episode of the 4 part BBC Ulster show "The History of Celtic Britain" mentioned a current DNA study that found no "Celtic" genes what-so-ever. There were no genetic differences amongst the Scots, English and Irish.
I was ridiculed in another thread for mentioning this fact. So we're either all Celts or none of us are...take your pick!
Cya!
Bob
Tom Hanway - Posted - 06/10/2011: 08:05:02
Ha, ha, very good: Bob, here's an interesting article about the term “Celtic”.
BDCA - Posted - 06/10/2011: 08:10:39
Excellent Tom!
Slainte
Bob
AllanJ - Posted - 06/10/2011: 14:16:03
Thanks for posting that version Peter, I shall steal your ideas shamelessly! I'm trying to get a few more people at my regular sessions to pick it up. I like the fact it has three very distinct parts, makes it fun to play and interesting to listen to.
Allan
peter somerville - Posted - 06/10/2011: 15:54:52
i think i used to play merrily kiss with banish misfortune. do you play it as a medley?
Tom Hanway - Posted - 06/12/2011: 02:23:33
In talking about things Celtic, such as music, and because the term has been so horribly misused to promote and sell product, teams and New Age drek, we need to be careful in our thinking about Celtic culture and traditions.
It would be foolish to focus on DNA or genetic background – remember Aryan-race propaganda – as the key to discovering Celtic culture and subcultures, cultures which are not one in the same, just as Celtic languages and musical dialects are not all one in the same. There are many analogies one could use. As my dear old friend and mentor, Alexei Kondratiev, a Celtic scholar, author and multi-linguist, wrote:
“[C]ulture is not passed down through the genes. Simply having Celtic ancestors does not give one any special insight into Celtic civilization. It can provide one with a powerful motivation to learn about Celtic culture, but it will not, in and of itself, give one a superior aptitude to learn. This is, in some ways, a peculiarly American problem: when our families came to this continent as immigrants many of them lost the use of their languages and all direct access to their ancestral cultures, so that genetic lineage has come to be more important than culture itself in defining ethnic identities within what is really one vast Anglo cultural continuum with regional variations. Taken too far, this can lead to a really obnoxious form of racism, as in the claim that one's genetic background must define one's cultural allegiance the claim that people with black skins, for instance, should only be attracted to African traditions (and, conversely, should have no place in European ones), or that only people with Native American "blood" (however little) should have any involvement with Native American cultures, and so forth. Given the amount of ethnic mixing that has taken place here, the demand for "pure" ethnicity becomes ludicrous. As someone who is part-Russian, part-French, what single ethnic label could I possibly give myself? I suppose I could claim a "Gaulish" lineage through my mother's side, but it would have very little to do with why I am attracted to Celtic culture, and why I've devoted much of my life to studying and defending it. I know people of "Celtic" descent who are actively participating in African traditions, and people of African descent on this continent who feel drawn to Celtic things. For that matter, I know people of African descent in Wales and Scotland who are fluent in Welsh and Gaelic and have completely embraced Celtic language, culture and ethnic identity.”
- Alexei Kondratiev, Letters to Editor
SOURCE: Keltria—Issue 32: Samhain/Winter 1996
Tom Hanway - Posted - 06/12/2011: 11:39:55
quote:
Originally posted by Banjowen
Seeing as there seems to be a growing interest in playing Celtic music on the 5 string banjo as well as on the tenor I've started a Celtic Banjo group, it's to cover melodic, single string, frailing, clawhammer, Scruggs, tenor banjo, plectrum banjo etc, the emphasis being on Celtic music, anyone interested in joining you'd be more than welcome here's a link :- banjohangout.org/group/celticbanjo I'd be very grateful for your input.
Owen, it's nice to see Celtic Banjo as a new BHO Group. It's about the music and living traditions. You have my full support.
May the banjo, all manner of banjos, continue to partake in and add joy to the lovely mix of people who celebrate Celtic culture in its myriad forms. Well done, Owen!
Beir bua agus beannacht,
Tom
BDCA - Posted - 06/12/2011: 11:50:41
quote:
Originally posted by Julian44_4
clawhammerbanjotab.co.uk/
Celtic Tunes
Under Paul Slater and Robin Beech
I used to play with a fiddle player named Paul Slater in the 70s. He was based in Durban. Could it be the same??
Thanks!
Bob
peter somerville - Posted - 06/12/2011: 14:59:20
thanks for your articles Tom, i've been reading them with interest
Tom Hanway - Posted - 08/18/2011: 05:59:19
quote:
Originally posted by peter somerville
Thanks for your articles Tom, i've been reading them with interest
An amazing thing about Celtic hornpipes is that they fit right in with the seaside events. I just played a jazz show at Milton Point in Rye, NY, a dinner party at the American Yacht Club. It was a jazz trio, in theory but we played some bluegrass too. The sax player was having trouble with his mouthpiece, so I did a solo spot, all Celtic hornpipes, nice and bouncy. You don't take these too fast, and I was using the sailboat masts as my guide. Seriously, it was laid back tuff, even if the tunes were full of triplets: I kept it bouncy and airy. Just a thought....
Beir bua agus beannacht,
Tom
peter somerville - Posted - 08/18/2011: 14:59:14
-but the funny thing is, sailors hornpipe (seaside?) seems to played at breakdown speed, not hornpipe bounce at all.
imac50 - Posted - 08/19/2011: 11:08:51
And Trumpet Hornpipe isn't played on the trumpet......... (at least not by me!)
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/04/2011: 18:30:28
Mel Bay's Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo (originally published in 1998) now comes with the CD inside the book and it's also available as a PDF download.
I still suggest getting the hard cover book and CD together. It's now now in Mel Bay's "best seller" category, and they've done a wonderful job with distribution worldwide, also found in libraries.
I am here to help, anytime.
All the best,
Tom
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/04/2011 18:31:47
imac50 - Posted - 11/05/2011: 10:42:52
Congratulations on being in the best sellers category. No surprise, really. It is a great book.
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