Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/192505/5
Page: 1 2 3 4 5
JoeDownes - Posted - 12/11/2010: 04:48:11
If you analyze Banjo Bounce you'll find that the notes are not spaced even like a machine gun. The on-beat 1/8th notes are ca 180ms long, while the off-beat 1/8 notes are about 110ms long. So Allen played with and without swing 1/8 and we still don't know for sure what bounce means. The name 'Banjo Bounce' does suggests to me that those swung 1/8 are what makes a banjo 'bounce'.
Edited by - JoeDownes on 12/11/2010 04:52:41
schwimbo - Posted - 12/11/2010: 06:05:33
Dave,
I just downloaded and analyzed She Left Me Standing (the original version with Allen Shelton), and I get totally different results in Audacity than you got. First of all, the notes are not evenly spaced as you claim. The numbered notes in Allen's first break average .14 to .15 seconds, and the & notes in between are .11 seconds on average, so you are not measuring very precisely. The notes are not of equal duration. Allen's playing is actually a bit behind the beat played by the snare drum for part of the tune and this can be seen in the second attachment. These are the facts that I got from Audacity. I guess one has to decide on which facts are more 'factual" and which aren't.
JoeDownes - Posted - 12/11/2010: 06:51:25
I get the same results as Peter. The on-beat notes are definitely longer than the off-beat notes in the first break of She left me standing, though note as pronounced as with Banjo Bounce.
Edited by - JoeDownes on 12/11/2010 06:52:20
Richard Dress - Posted - 12/11/2010: 08:26:29
"the notes are not evenly spaced as you claim. The numbered notes in Allen's first break average .14 to .15 seconds, and the & notes in between are .11 seconds on average" -- schwimbo
Pete, that's a nice job; thanks for taking the time and trouble. Long short long short note spacing that you measured is impressive and it would be nice to see it illustrated so that it stands out better.
This pairing (if we can call it that) that schwimbo has just shown us is the 'Shelton' bounce.
Note size and how it all stands relative to the beat of the snare are not bounce issues and just fog up the discussion.
Dave Magram - Posted - 12/11/2010: 11:44:22
Thanks for all of the comments.
Isn't that a fabulous solo that Allen does on "Standing on a Mountain"?
Cool pinches at the beginning--right?
A lot of bounce!
Hopefully we can all agree on that!
Joe wrote: “If you analyze Banjo Bounce you'll find that the notes are not spaced even like a machine gun.”
You may be correct. However “Banjo Bounce” is a swing tune, it is not bluegrass timing. I should have clarified again that I am focusing solely on Allen’s “bounce” in straight-ahead bluegrass material like “Standing on a Mountain”, not swing tunes.
Joe wrote: “The on-beat notes are definitely longer than the off-beat notes in the first break of She left me standing”
Peter wrote: “The notes are not of equal duration.”
Richard wrote: "Long short long short note spacing that you measured is impressive..."
That may be, but once again we seem to be talking about two different things.
I am focusing on the spacing of the initial impact of the notes, not the duration of each note.
Impact and duration are not the same thing—impact is the point of striking the note and duration is the sustain of the note over time.
For example, you can strike (impact) a second note while the first note is still ringing (duration)--we do it all the time on the banjo.
Can we at least agree on that differentiation?
If you guys want to focus on the duration of the notes to fit with your "pairing" theory, that is fine with me.
I prefer to focus on the impact spacing, since that is much more practical as far as I’m concerned.
----------------------------------------------------
Peter, thanks for the additional analysis on Standing on a Mountain and for posting those screenshots. You clearly know more about Audacity than me.
You wrote: “The numbered notes in Allen's first break average .14 to .15 seconds, and the & notes in between are .11 seconds on average, so you are not measuring very precisely.”
I can't tell if you are talking about duration or note-spacing in that comment, so I calculated the note spacing from the screenshots you posted.
On your second attachment, I read the initial impact (the front edge of the banjo note) of the six banjo notes between 1.00 and 1.70 in the left channel to be: 1.02; 1.13; 1.25; 1.38; 1.50; 1.60.
Would you agree with these readings?
The spacings between those six notes would be: 0.10, 010, 0.12, 0.12, 0.10-–an average of 0.11 seconds, so we seem to be in agreement that the spacing between Allen’s notes is “0.11 second on average”.
If we agree that the notes are spaced an average of 0.11 seconds apart (plus or minus 0.01 second—after all Allen was a human being)—then you and I agree that Allen’s notes are spaced evenly, which is what I have been saying all along. 
You wrote: “Allen's playing is actually a bit behind the beat played by the snare drum for part of the tune and this can be seen in the second attachment.”
I'd prefer to focus on the downbeat as provided by the bass.
If the right channel is the bass note, it seems to be struck at 1.15 and 1.62. Allen is hitting his notes at 1.13 and 1.60, so I read that as Allen is playing ahead of the bass note downbeat by 0.02 seconds.
Unless I am misreading your screenshot, that says to me that Allen is playing slightly ahead of the downbeat.
Is it possible that we are actually in agreement?
------------------------------------------------------
Once again guys, all this theoretical debate is interesting, but sitting down and playing along with Allen Shelton’s looped solo of “Standing on a Mountain” has helped me to understand how to emulate to some extent the “Shelton bounce”; which was my primary goal. (Thank you Peter for that suggestion--so obvious in hindsight.)
I may not be doing it according to the "pairing" theory that some of you subscribe to-- but then it has been proven with aerodynamic theory that bumblebees cannot fly.
I prefer practical application myself.
Thanks,
Dave
Edited by - Dave Magram on 12/11/2010 11:46:57
minstrelmike - Posted - 12/11/2010: 12:38:27
It is true that duration is different from initial impact.
Duration is dependent on how hard you strike the string with the right finger and how long you hold (a fretted note) with the left finger.
However, if the distances between initial impacts are different, then you have 'bounce' by my definition.
The average distances between all the notes is irrelevant because I can average anything and lose a lot of information. That's how non-mathematicians can think theory or science is useless because they use the measurements wrong and thus end up with useless derivations and explanations.
Allen's average note-impact-distance may be exactly the same as Earl's, but if Allen's standard deviation (a math term that _must_ be associated with averages in order to compare them) is larger than Earl's (which should be zero if all notes are evenly spaced), then Allen has more bounce than Earl does, at least in that specific instance. Average note-impact-distance tells me the speed at which they play. All by itself, it says nothing about rhythmic variation.
JoeDownes - Posted - 12/11/2010: 12:46:09
Dave, I measured those same 6 notes between 1.00s and 1.70s and this what I got for their durations:
128ms - 106ms - 143ms - 116ms - 131ms - 98ms
I measured from one initial jump in amplitude in the wave form to the next. On-beat notes in this small section are 138ms on average, while the off-beat notes are 107ms on average. The average note lasted for 123ms.
When I look at the notes between 2.00 and 2.90 I find these durations between the initial attack of the notes:
153ms 93ms 141ms 103ms 134ms 93ms 139ms 103ms
The average duration for on-beat notes in this section is 141ms, the average off-beat note's duration is 98ms. The average note lasts for 120 ms.
ca. 5s till 6s I read:
148ms 103ms 139ms 98ms 139ms 95ms 148ms 105ms
Do you see the pattern? You'll find it everywhere in this break. The on-beat notes last about 1.35 times longer than the off-beat notes.
Edited by - JoeDownes on 12/11/2010 13:00:58
schwimbo - Posted - 12/11/2010: 13:06:30
Dave, Here are the points of impact (the start times of each note) from the Audacity file: .92, 1.06, 1.16, 1.30, 1.42, 1.55, 1.65, 1.80, 1.90, 2.05 etc. I measured this directly from my Audacity file using the select tool and measuring the waveform at the point where the volume of the individual note just starts to increase rapidly. You can see that the separations are then .14, .10, .14, .12, .13, .10, .15, .10, .15 so there is a long note followed by a shorter note.
As far as where the snare hits compared to the banjo notes, in the second screen shot, this is: 14.01 for the snare, 14.02 for the banjo note, 14.25 for the snare, 14.26 for the banjo note, 14.48 for the snare, 14.49 for the banjo note. I don't know if anybody can hear the .01 difference, but the point is that Allen's notes are not ahead of the snare beat. In the first screen shot, snare is at 1.17, banjo at 1.16, snare is at 1.64, banjo is at 1.65, snare is at 2.13, banjo at 2.15. So there is a very small difference in where the banjo and share hit, and the banjo is generally not ahead of the snare impact. I compared the banjo to the snare rather than to the other blobs (as you call them), which are guitar and bass combined as I thought that would be a more accurate measure, and the snare drum impact is very easy to measure.
Dave Magram - Posted - 12/12/2010: 00:13:39
Pete, Richard, Mike, & Joe,
As far as I’m concerned, I’ve got what I came for, which is a practical method of emulating Allen’s bounce. I don’t really care HOW I am doing it, just that I can do it.
However, you all seem intent on continuing your analysis to prove your “long-short” theory, so I’ll play along.
Here’s the puzzle that I can’t figure out.
Joe wrote: “The on-beat notes last about 1.35 times longer than the off-beat notes.”
Before we go any further, let me point something out--that is a significant shift in the math for the die-hard “pairing theorists” who have been claiming in the last few pages of this thread that the first note was TWO times longer than the second note.
A differential of 1.35 times is a decrease of 65 percentage points from the previous claim of 2.00 times longer duration.
Quite a shift, I’d say.
Okay, let’s assume for the moment that your Audacity analysis is correct, and the first note is 1.35 times longer than the first note.
Here’s my question: how did Shelton execute your theory in the real world?
And before we go down that “chat-a-noo-ga” and rolling eggs road again, let’s do a little experiment.
Blink your eyes three times fast.
A fast eyeblink takes 0.33 second, so your three eyeblinks took one second.
During those three eyeblinks, Allen Shelton played 8.2 notes at 126 BPM.
That's four pairs of notes in three eyeblinks!
Pete wrote: “You can see that the separations are then .14, .10, .14, .12, .13, .10, .15, .10, .15 so there is a long note followed by a shorter note.”.
The difference between 0.10 and 0.13 seconds is 0.03 second, TEN times faster than a single eyeblink.
That is the tiny timeframe we are discussing—three-hundredths of a second, a tenth of an eyeblink.
I do not believe that anyone, even a banjo demigod like Allen Shelton, can consciously think ten times faster than an eyeblink!
So how is Allen achieving that steady long-short duration that you believe is the key to his “bounce”?
Forget “chat-a-noo-ga” and rolling eggs—they can’t be consciously thought of ten times faster than an eyeblink!
One eyeblink barely gives you time to think of just the “chat” syllable of “chat-a-noo-ga”.
I believe that this tiny timeframe completely rules out a conscious decision to make the first note of the pair 0.03 second longer than the second note of a the pair.
So, help me understand how you think Allen actually implemented your “long-short” theory in the real world--ten times faster than an eyeblink.
Or was this long-short phenomenon that you found simply a RESULT of how he played, rather than a conscious cause?
- Dave
Edited by - Dave Magram on 12/12/2010 00:16:06
JoeDownes - Posted - 12/12/2010: 01:52:00
Dave, in Banjo Bounce the long notes are about 1.8 times longer than the short ones, Standing on a mountain shows a less pronounced 'swing ratio' - at about 1.35. This variation in the ratio of swung notes is typical of swing rhythms, according to the wiki article you quoted:
"In shuffle rhythm, the first note in the pair is exactly twice the duration of the second note. In swing the division is inexact, and varies depending on factors such as how fast or slow the music is, on the genre of music, or the individual tastes of the performer, from almost equal (typically at fast tempos) to almost shuffle (typically at slow tempos)." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swung_note
You ask: Or was this long-short phenomenon that you found simply a RESULT of how he played, rather than a conscious cause?
Well, what does it matter? Shelton did play a longer note followed by a shorter one in both examples that we analyzed. Even if he never consciously thought about it (which is hard to prove either way), he still played it that way, the recordings reveal a consistent long-short pattern. He must have liked it better that way.
If a banjo player can play ahead of the beat by a fraction of a second, he can surely delay the off-beat notes by a fraction of a second.
Maybe you can record yourself while playing along with Shelton's recordings and analyze your timing. If you follow his 'feel' exactly your playing is affected by his swing timing and you can see the uneven spacing in your recording. Maybe you do it, too, consciously or not.
JoeDownes - Posted - 12/12/2010: 02:07:07
Richard, here's a screen shot with the approximate durations of the long and short notes highlighted.
Rich Weill - Posted - 12/12/2010: 07:01:32
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
Forget “chat-a-noo-ga” and rolling eggs—they can’t be consciously thought of ten times faster than an eyeblink!
One eyeblink barely gives you time to think of just the “chat” syllable of “chat-a-noo-ga”.
I believe that this tiny timeframe completely rules out a conscious decision to make the first note of the pair 0.03 second longer than the second note of a the pair.
But above you gave a list of things you decided you now could do differently to play with more "Shelton bounce," including to "space the notes as even as a machine-gun." How can you do
that "ten times faster than an eyeblink"? Isn't that even harder? After all, the long-short-long ratio need not be precisely uniform, but "as even as a machine gun" is precise and unwavering. If you can't consciously do the one at high speed, how can you consciously do the other?
Or are you really doing
either consciously at those speeds? Aren't you developing the pattern (and the feel that accompanies it) into a habit at lower speeds and simply maintaining the habit as the speed increases?
Richard Dress - Posted - 12/12/2010: 07:04:51
Dave, I am glad you can play with bounce. But a teacher needs to explain how to do these things, not just do them. That's why I am persisting in this thread. If I can't explain it, then what does it say about me as a teacher. You ask:
"Here’s my question: how did Shelton execute your theory in the real world?"
Here is the video clip again. It shows how to execute bounce.
youtube.com/watch?v=4gTn891ycn0
Again let me say that the issue is not the length of the notes but their spacing, The note length you are discussing is determined by the spacing, long, short, long short... Joe Downs and schwimbo have clearly shown the bounce effect in their illustrations.
Edited by - Richard Dress on 12/12/2010 07:09:06
steve davis - Posted - 12/12/2010: 07:48:34
How did Allen Shelton learn to play with "bounce"?
Richard Dress - Posted - 12/12/2010: 08:38:16
"How did Allen Shelton learn to play with 'bounce'?" -- steve davis
In the beginning everyone played with bounce. Also in the beginning everyone was judged against Earl as the standard. If they wanted to make a name for themselves on the banjo they had to stand out in some way. Sonny with backup, JD with pulloffs, Emerson with drive, Shelton with bounce. All Shelton did was play with a lot of bounce. That made him stand out from Earl who didn't use so much of it.
Jody Hughes - Posted - 12/12/2010: 09:53:51
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis
How did Allen Shelton learn to play with "bounce"?
You can start with Audacity?
steve davis - Posted - 12/12/2010: 09:59:06
I believe Allen Shelton followed his own ideas of what sounded good.
Jody Hughes - Posted - 12/12/2010: 10:01:19
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis
I believe Allen Shelton followed his own ideas of what sounded good.
Agreed
....I do wish more people would answer the original question. WHY play straight eighths over swung/bounce eights?
I'm enjoying the discussion but would also like to hear from some of the other posters as to why they chose to play one way over another. Perhaps the specifics of the circumstances that call for each type of playing?
Edited by - Jody Hughes on 12/12/2010 10:04:19
Dave Magram - Posted - 12/12/2010: 11:06:46
Richard,
You wrote: “But a teacher needs to explain how to do these things, not just do them.”
I entirely agree.
And when it comes to emulating the “Allen Shelton bounce”, I have provided my explanation of how to do it earlier on this thread.
Instead of starting with theory, I came up with my explanation by playing along with Allen’s solo until I got my timing to sound pretty close to Allen’s--and then analyzing what I was doing.
This is the empirical approach: first execute, then analyze.
Who knows--maybe my first note is longer than the duration of the second note, but I am not consciously thinking of doing it--as the “theorists’ on this thread seem to insist—because I cannot think that fast (0.03 second, a tenth of a fast eyeblink).
As I have mentioned before, I believe that what many people on this thread are calling ”bounce”-- isn’t “bounce”.
People are confusing “bounce” with swing, shuffle, syncopation, and gosh knows what else.
DEFINTION
That is why all along I have defined “bounce” to sound like the “Allen Shelton bounce”, because that is what many great banjo players like Osborne, Reno, etc. all agree on about “bounce”—Allen Shelton had it.
(Sonny Osborne: “That’s Allen’s thing, that little bounce that he does.” Masters of FSB, page 115.)
YOUR AUDIOCLIP
Please don’t take this the wrong way, Richard, but I have listened several times to your YouTube clip, and to me, it is not demonstrating “bounce”--according to the definition above.
When you say during the clip, “No bounce”, I hear an even roll without any accents, like speaking in a robotic monotone without accenting any syllables: “chat-a-noo-ga” in your terminology.
When you say “Bounce”, I hear a standard bluegrass roll with an accent on the first (thumb) note of the roll: “CHAT-a-noo-ga”.
When you play the song on the clip (it sounds like “I Wonder Where You Are Tonight”), I hear standard bluegrass rolls with accents and rests and syncopation.
To my ear, it does not have “bounce”--according to the definition above.
Please understand that I am not criticizing how you play. I am simply saying that to my ear, your playing on that audio-clip does not demonstrate “bounce” as defined by Allen Shelton.
- Dave
Dave Magram - Posted - 12/12/2010: 11:23:08
Hi Banjocoltrane,
In answer to your question…
I believe the role of the banjo-player in a band is to support the material, support the rest of the band, make the vocalist sound good, and entertain the audience.
I make my choices on what the material calls for, and what band and the audience seem to prefer:
When the band plays Flatt & Scruggs material, I do my best to capture Earl’s timing, drive, and vocabulary.
When the band plays Stanley Brothers material, I try to throw in more index-finger lead and some Ralph Stanley drive and licks.
When the band plays Jim & Jesse material, I do my best to capture as much of Allen Shelton’s “bounce” and drive as I can and some of his cool licks.
When the band plays original material or material from other genres, I try to come up with my own stuff to best support the material and the vocalist.
And as Allen Shelton used to do, I often ask the rest of the band which of several different approaches they prefer.
- Dave
JoeDownes - Posted - 12/12/2010: 13:14:30
Here's an interesting article on the relation between swing ratio and tempo. acoustics.org/press/137th/friberg.html
They measured the swing ratio of famous jazz drummers at different speeds and found out that the swing ratio gets lower as the tempo increases and that the length of the short notes stays around 100 ms for a wide range of tempi.
The observation that the short notes are approximately 100ms is exactly what I measured in Audacity for Allen Shelton's playing.
Banjo Bounce is 212 bpm and has a swing ratio of ca. 1.7-1.8. The short notes are about 100ms long.
Standing on a mountain has a bpm of ca. 252 bpm and a swing ratio of 1.35-1.4. Like in Banjo Bounce and the jazz drummer's playing the short notes are about 100ms long.
Here's the explanation that the above mentioned article offers: "This value (100ms) coincides with the shortest notes used for a melodic line in jazz. It is also in agreement with nerve response times both for auditory and visual stimuli. All this indicates that in order for individual tones to be perceived, they cannot be shorter then about 0.1 second."
Dave, how can you be so sure that it is not the swing timing that is commonly referred to as (Shelton) bounce? Shelton seems to play with a more pronounced swing feel than other famous players.
Dave Magram - Posted - 12/12/2010: 13:41:01
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
Forget “chat-a-noo-ga” and rolling eggs—they can’t be consciously thought of ten times faster than an eyeblink!
One eyeblink barely gives you time to think of just the “chat” syllable of “chat-a-noo-ga”.
I believe that this tiny timeframe completely rules out a conscious decision to make the first note of the pair 0.03 second longer than the second note of a the pair.
But above you gave a list of things you decided you now could do differently to play with more "Shelton bounce," including to "space the notes as even as a machine-gun." How can you do that "ten times faster than an eyeblink"? Isn't that even harder? After all, the long-short-long ratio need not be precisely uniform, but "as even as a machine gun" is precise and unwavering. If you can't consciously do the one at high speed, how can you consciously do the other?
Or are you really doing either consciously at those speeds? Aren't you developing the pattern (and the feel that accompanies it) into a habit at lower speeds and simply maintaining the habit as the speed increases?
Rich, like most banjo-players I spent the first year or so trying to to play as evenly as Earl Scruggs did on slow and medium tempo songs.
I recall slowing down some of my F&S LPs to 16 rpm, and marveling at how evenly Earl played.
As JD Crowe once asked Earl, "How do you make each of your notes sound a thousand miles apart, Earl?"
I next worked on maintaining that eveness at fast speeds, like Monroe's White House Blues (around 160 bpm) and still providing the accents, syncopation, and drive that to me are the hallmarks of good banjo-playing.
About four years after I began learning Scruggs-style, I was asked to fill in every week for several months for Mac Martin's excellent banjo-player, Billy Bryant, who was ill. Mac was and is a huge fan of Lester & Earl, so that was quite an honor for me.
I like to think that I was asked because I had captured a bit of Earl's sound and how he would space his notes so evenly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
To learn to play evenly spaced notes with drive at 8 or 10 notes a second like Earl is quite a challenge--but it is far easier than what I regard to be utterly impossible, which is to CONSCIOUSLY pick the notes in an uneven timing on standard bluegrass material at say 126 bpm which requires picking 8.2 notes a second.
Schwimbo and Joe Downes seem pretty convinced that their Audacity analysis shows that Allen is spacing his notes unevenly--perhaps they're right.
But this analysis is in effect, the difference between Newtonian physics and sub-atomic physics.
Schwimbo and Joe Downes state that their analysis reveals that there is a tiny three-hundredths of a second difference in the spacing of Allen's note-pairs.
I'm willing to accept their subatomic analysis.
However I am convinced that this differential is a RESULT of how Allen picked-- not a CONSCIOUS decision on his part to think ".14, .10, .14, .12, .13, .10, .15, .10" each second (as Schwimbo found).
To consciously space these notes unevenly in the pattern shown above would require Allen to think ten times faster than a fast eyeblink, which is utterly impossible.
Therefore, I do not believe that anyone can CONSCIOUSLY pick the notes in an uneven timing on standard bluegrass material at 126 bpm, as Allen did in this example.
How else could this differential duration be explained?
In science theories are developed to EXPLAIN naturally occurring phenomena; theories do not CAUSE the real world phenomena.
Here's one theory:
If indeed, Allen's note-pairs are different by 0.03 second, then I suspect this is a result of how the muscles in his hand picked the notes--perhaps his unusual accenting of the offbeat caused a sligtly longer duration of the first note in each pair.
I do not know the answer--which is why I asked for other people's ideas.
The one thing I am absolutely certain of is that Allen was not thinking to himself each second as he picked: ".14, .10, .14, .12, .13, .10, .15, .10".
And he certainly could not have done so and still maintained that huge grin of his!
- Dave
JoeDownes - Posted - 12/12/2010: 14:47:30
That grin might have come from his control of note spacing, from the groove he was getting from that 35ms delay of the off-beat notes. He can consistently make every long note about 40% longer, even though, like you stated, the difference between the long and the short note is only about 0.03 seconds. When I reach that kind of control over micro-rhythms I'm gonna be grinning like he did.
Jazz drummers have the ability to play with a consistent swing feel at a high tempo. Why should a famous banjo player be unable to achieve the same thing? I don't get your idea that his pronounced swing rhythm is merely a byproduct of his playing. It seems much more likely that this is the way he wanted it to sound and he played it with great precision.
Edited by - JoeDownes on 12/12/2010 14:55:33
Dave Magram - Posted - 12/12/2010: 16:29:02
Joe wrote:
“Jazz drummers have the ability to play with a consistent swing feel at a high tempo. Why should a famous banjo player be unable to achieve the same thing?”
Here are three reasons:
1) Drummers are not striking their drumheads 8 or 10 times a second like Allen was hitting his strings; Allen was dealing at the “sub-atomic” level of 2 or 3 hundredths of a second.
2) Drummers are using two hands; Allen used three fingers on one hand.
3) Drummers often use unmatched striking implements in different hands, such as a drumstick and a brush or a mallet; Allen used National fingerpicks on both fingers.
I offered a reasonable and realistic explanation of how Shelton could be consciously picking evenly, yet still produce notes of different durations. Although this explanation could explain both your theoretical position and my practical explanation, apparently you prefer to stay with the unlikely and un-provable theoretical approach--which is of course your perogative.
However, as I’ve mentioned several times, my interest is purely practical, not theoretical.
I do not care one whit who is "right" or who is "wrong".
As far as I’m concerned, I got what I wanted, which was to be able to emulate Shelton’s bounce to some degree.
Bottom line, I do not not believe it was possible that Allen Shelton was thinking to himself each second as he picked: ".14, .10, .14, .12, .13, .10, .15, .10", and create a time differential of 0.03 second, one-tenth as long as a human eyeblink.
You appear to believe that he could.
Lacking any neuroscience studies to the contrary, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, Joe.
- Dave
steve davis - Posted - 12/12/2010: 17:13:03
I believe Allen thought,"This feels right...I'm going to keep doing it this way".
He was helping to create and stay in the "groove".
Dave Magram - Posted - 12/12/2010: 17:30:13
Hi Steve,
I agree with you 100%.
Even Allen admitted that he did not know what he was doing to execute what everybody called the "Shelton bounce".
But he sure had that groove going, whether it was for straight-ahead bluegrass, country, swing, or most amazing of all, "Berry Picking in the Country", where he nailed Chuck Berry's guitar breaks note-for-note.
As far as I'm concerned Allen Shelton defined the banjo style for the Jim & Jesse band.
Their album "Bluegrass Special" is one of my all-time favorites.
He was a one-of-a-kind banjo-player.
I got to meet him once and got to chat with him for a long time--he was one of the friendliest, most unassuming musicians I've ever met.
- Dave
steve davis - Posted - 12/12/2010: 17:48:20
I can count on one hand the number of times I've met a famous banjo player.
I've actually only had one conversation,but it was with JD Crowe.
I believe it's more important to develop one's own opinion about what sounds right than studying someone else's style.
I like to read tab of someone else or try some cool licks,but I'm much more interested in developing my own ideas.
Edited by - steve davis on 12/12/2010 17:48:58
1935tb-11 - Posted - 12/12/2010: 18:22:51
i don't know if i have bounce or swing or beebop or what.
i just play like me i guess. i am all over the place as far as
style and playing on the beat or behind as you can tell by
some of the songs posted on my homepage.
i think i just morphed into what i am out of survival.
terry m
n.c.
schwimbo - Posted - 12/12/2010: 18:47:47
The long note short note characteristic of Allen's playing probably is "the byproduct of his playing", meaning that he wanted to play in a swing (or bouncy) feel, and that is what happened naturally when he tried to get his sound to be bouncy / swing-y. I can play bouncy / with a swing feel, and I don't think about long note-short note in a conscious way. I just try to get the feel, and it so happens that the feel is characterized by the long note - short note pair. I just played along with Allen's first break on She Left Me Standing.... and uploaded it. It is not quite the same feel-wise as Allen's break (I have only tried to get it the same as Allen played it for the sake of this discussion, so I'm not playing what is exactly natural for me, in terms of what rolls to play when). However, if you load it into Audacity, there is the same long - note followed by short note pairing.
Edited by - schwimbo on 12/12/2010 18:56:40
stringbreaker - Posted - 12/12/2010: 19:08:50
no bounce. you not understand allen. listen to it again.
schwimbo - Posted - 12/12/2010: 19:21:18
Stringbreaker - I could probably get it bouncier if I wasn't trying to copy Allen's break note for note. If you want me to try posting another one for your approval, I'll give it a try.
Richard Dress - Posted - 12/12/2010: 19:37:37
Lot's of bounce there, schwimbo. Thanks for posting.
Stringbreaker is wasting his time on this thread. It's already confused beyond ever getting back to the original question.
schwimbo - Posted - 12/12/2010: 21:12:33
Just to see if my attempt at the first Shelton break was a little better sounding in context, I combined it with the rhythm track of the Jim and Jesse recording (which has minimal banjo on it, with mostly mandolin, bass, and snare) and it seems to have more bounce when listened to with the rhythm track accompanying it. I made a mistake a few minutes ago when I said that the guitar was on the rhythm track, but it is actually more on the banjo track of the original recording. I substituted my banjo track for the original banjo track (which had the guitar on it) when I combined it with the other "rhythm track".
Edited by - schwimbo on 12/12/2010 22:03:08
Dave Magram - Posted - 12/12/2010: 21:25:45
Hey Schwimbo,
Good job!
It sure sounds bouncy to me--especially when combined with the J&J rhythm track.
Dave
schwimbo - Posted - 12/12/2010: 21:43:28
Dave,
Thanks for the compliment. i appreciate it after all the heated debate we've been having about how Mr. Shelton did what he did. I just revised the soundfile I posted to include more of the Jim and Jesse rhythm track (extended past the banjo solo) so you can see I wasn't just posting Allen's playing and claiming it to be mine. You can see that there was very little banjo in the original rhythm track if you listen to it after the banjo break ends. I just tried to develop my playing (either bouncy or not bouncy) by copying other players I liked and playing along with albums until it sounded like the banjo parts had merged. Then I knew I was getting close to having the same feel (or timing at least) that the recorded player(s) had.
Dave Magram - Posted - 12/15/2010: 09:54:39
Hi Schwimbo,
No problem.
Our theoretical debate may have been "heated" a few times, but it was respectful.
As I've been saying all along, I couldn't care less about the theory--I'm only interested in the practical application--and you came through at the end with your audio-clip!
I'm curious--when you are emulating Allen Shelton on the audio-clip, do you just think "bouncy" or do you focus on accenting the off-beat 1st string notes (which is what I do)?
- Dave
schwimbo - Posted - 12/15/2010: 16:07:23
Hi Dave,
I really just tried to play along with Allen, though I do think that emphasizing all the numbered beats (1,2,3 and 4) would help with the feel. If you look at Allen's playing, he does that, though I'm not as successful at it in this attempt (as I don't usually try to copy his style when I play). I have attached another clip of my break along with the rhythm track, which I think is better than the one I previously posted. Here is the reason (posted in my description of the new uploaded clip): This latest version has the banjo part delayed by about .02 seconds relative to the rhythm track. The reason I needed to do this is that when I played along with the track in Audacity, the new part added to the rhythm track is delayed slightly by the computer's processing time, and you need to manually shift the new track relative to the one being played along with. I didn't shift the track the correct amount to match what I had actually intended when playing (I over shifted it by a small amount). I compared the Jim and Jesse version with my newer time shifted version (delayed slightly) and it matches much better. When the snare in both tracks line up, the banjo parts from Allen's playing and my copy of his break also line up better. I think that it still sounds bouncy (at least as much as when it was inadvertently pushing the beat slightly in the first version I posted with the rhythm track).
Dave Magram - Posted - 12/15/2010: 18:42:37
Hi Schwimbo,
You wrote: "I really just tried to play along with Allen..."
I get that--that works as long as one is playing along with Allen.
I was wondering what you would think about when you are the only banjo-player and wanting to play with the "Shelton bounce".
-Dave
schwimbo - Posted - 12/15/2010: 21:25:32
Dave, I guess the guitar player or mandolin player could help "put me in the right mood" for a bouncy rhythm if they did the same on their instruments when it was appropriate for there to be "&" notes played in the rhythm. If they played long note - short note pairs for the rhythm fills, then you would have to play to their rhythm for it to sound right, and that would at least give you a large part of the bounce. The accenting of the numbered beats would be up to me to provide, and hopefully I would be able to play something along those lines. If the rhythm players spaced their notes evenly (no long note short note pairs in their rhythm fills), then I don't think the "Shelton bounce" would work, unless the "&" notes were left totally unplayed. In that case, one could either play straight time (no bounce), or bounce, since the banjo would be the instrument determining which way the tune would wind up being.
My natural tendency is to play somewhat bouncy, since I listened to players who did that a lot when I started playing banjo. I like Bill Emerson, Allan Shelton, Porter Church, JD Crowe, etc, and they all bounced to some degree. I tried to copy some of Walter Hensley's playing (where there was no bounce), and I liked that too, but played a lot less in that style than in a style where there was some bounce. I guess I don't have to think about it too much for it to happen. It is harder to play without bounce for me, but if the guitar player is playing straight rhythm, then that makes it easier to do. I can also warm up by playing straight time at very slow speed, and then if I pick the speed up, my time can stay straight (if I want it to). If I start playing bouncy at slow speeds, and then pick up the speed, I have to make a very conscious effort to not have the bounce carry over at the faster tempo. I can usually do it, but often prefer to let some bounce be present. Well, I don't know if that helps clarify the picture at all.
JackieM - Posted - 05/08/2011: 05:01:59
Wow! I found this old topic today and spent my Sunday reading through all the pages, scrolling with my left hand and picking with my right. After a lengthy break from the banjo (I have only started picking seriously again in the past 6 months) one area I told myself I wanted to focus on was adding some bounce into my playing. The interpretation of what is bounce/swing etc is obviously a debatable issue but listening to some of the posted sound files it seems to me that there is a definite distinction between songs that bounce and a banjo player that plays with bounce within a song. Maybe my ears hear it wrong but the bounce I am trying to emulate and incorporate into my playing is something like the one played by Jim Mills in Groundhog. Another interesting anomaly I came across a few months ago was when I was trying to learn Ron Stewart's intro in Love for an Angel (live version) I thought it was a straight ahead/driving break until I decided to slow it down to learn his licks. The more I slowed it down, the bouncier it got!! I feel the clearest interpretation of bounce is the video posted by Mr Richard Dress. Great topic.
Cheers Jack
Edited by - JackieM on 05/08/2011 05:12:26
Flying Eagle - Posted - 05/08/2011: 12:24:26
quote:
I agree with Don Reno’s recommendation about learning to play the banjo: “Well, starting, I would say that I don’t think you could beat Earl Scruggs for a starter…That would be my advice to a person, starting with Earl’s method first and then go up the line. After he’s learned that, learn the fancier stuff.” (p. 83).
Well Don, if popularity with the hard core, traditional bluegrass crowd and impact on the vast majority of banjo player players in particular is any indication, I'd say that you can't be Earl... for anything.
JW
doug.knecht - Posted - 05/08/2011: 12:43:35
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
Some people play with bounce. Some don't. Some play with bounce sometimes. Which are you -- and why?
Personally I can play better without the bounce. I accent, but I don't bounce. I only bounce it when the band says they need a medium or slow tune bouncy, then I will.
People who played with bounce a lot of the time: Alan Shelton, Alan Munde, Ralph Stanley
People who played without bounce a lot of the time: Earl Scruggs, Bela Fleck, Alison Brown
schwimbo - Posted - 05/08/2011: 16:04:20
I wouldn't say that Ralph Stanley played (plays) with bounce.
Mirek Patek - Posted - 10/18/2011: 07:09:23
I hear you, Rich, but I think this deserves the bump so there is another playground.
Page: 1 2 3 4 5
