tomberghan - Posted - 11/27/2010:  21:09:14

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Let me know if this helps.
Best regards,
Tom

technical explanation of swing (inequality)

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/27/2010:  23:58:32

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Thanks, Tom. I would have assumed that clawhammer playing has an inherent "inequality," because the basic "bum ditty" rhythm isn't spaced evenly.

I was once at a workshop in which the workshop leader said that western rhythm is based on one of two models: either (a) a person walking, or (b) the human heartbeat. The walking rhythm is the equivalent of "straight time." A downbeat followed by the heartbeat rhythm is the equivalent of "bounce."

Dave Magram - Posted - 11/28/2010:  08:54:19

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Tom, thanks so much for your very informative musical analysis.
Who would have thought we’d need to go back to the Baroque era and use French (inegal) to describe swing!

I searched for “inegal” on Wikipedia to better understand what you are talking about. (See: “Swung Note”)

Wikipedia describes “swung note or shuffle note” as “some notes with equal written time values are performed with unequal durations, usually as alternating long and short.”
Rich, you will be interested to know that the Wikipedia article describes “A swing or shuffle rhythm is the rhythm produced by playing repeated pairs of notes in this way (alternating long and short).”—which may be what Roger Sprung was alluding to with his term “pairing”.

I don’t usually play swing on the banjo, but I do play pedal steel in a country band that does a fair bit of swing tunes.
When I play swing, I think of it as accenting beats two and four (the off-beats between the downbeats) instead of beats one and three as bluegrass does, (Wikipedia: “Quarter notes can sound swung when they are played slightly behind the beat, detached, and accented on the two and four,”. Another way to say this is accenting the “and” between the notes. (Wikipedia: “Accenting the "and" between each beat slightly is also a common swing characteristic.”)

In your audio-clip, you played some examples of long-short and short-long time values (durations).
To my ear, you are striking the notes evenly spaced, but accenting the “long” note-- which gives the listener the perception that it is of longer duration.

Here’s my question to you—is that the way you think of what you are doing?
Do you believe that you are introducing an actual time delay after the “long” note, or are you instead strongly accenting the “long” note to provide the perception that it is of longer duration?

Rich, thanks for your kind words about “Little Liza Jane”—“drive” is what I was shooting for.
To answer your original question of "why"? That's what I felt the tune needed.

- Dave

archtop717 - Posted - 11/28/2010:  09:14:06

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In my opinion, bounce is definitly a feel, but there are tunes like "Gold Rush" which makes you play it bouncy, you have no choice. I also think the jazzy shuffle is different then bounce.

"FEEL" is a strange thing. I have heard players that play all the standard licks and Scruggs tunes, but they have such a Feel, that they make them their own.

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/28/2010:  09:26:09

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Magram

When I play swing, I think of it as accenting beats two and four (the off-beats between the downbeats) instead of beats one and three as bluegrass does, (Wikipedia: “Quarter notes can sound swung when they are played slightly behind the beat, detached, and accented on the two and four,”. Another way to say this is accenting the “and” between the notes. (Wikipedia: “Accenting the "and" between each beat slightly is also a common swing characteristic.”)

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While the "&" note is delayed -- i.e., paired with the next beat note -- the emphasis is still on the beat note, not the "&" note. That's the heartbeat sound: the lub-DUB, lub-DUB, lub-DUB (&-TWO, &-THREE, &-FOUR).

But the accents remain on the first and third beats. In fact, in studying how Roger plays, to my ear it sounds like he often drops the second and seventh note from his eight-note right hand pattern, producing something like: 1---2--&3--&4---. By dropping the notes both before and after the downbeat, this REALLY accents that first beat.

As I said above, his pairing, accents, and strategically-placed pauses all contribute to the pronounced bounce in his playing.

O.D. - Posted - 11/28/2010:  09:31:25

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[quote]
But the accents remain on the first and third beats. In fact, in studying how Roger plays, to my ear it sounds like he often drops the second and seventh note from his eight-note right hand pattern, producing something like: 1---2--&3--&4---. By dropping the notes both before [i]and after the downbeat, this REALLY accents that first beat.

Hey Rich.
I find this thread interesting. Ive been following it.
can you highlight or pin point an example of the above?
Thanks,O.D.

tomberghan - Posted - 11/28/2010:  09:40:03

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Magram

Tom, thanks so much for your very informative musical analysis.
Here’s my question to you—is that the way you think of what you are doing?
Do you believe that you are introducing an actual time delay after the “long” note, or are you instead strongly accenting the “long” note to provide the perception that it is of longer duration?

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Actually, when I am playing with bounce (or swinging) I don't think about it at all. It was only when I went off to study music history in a conservatory (30-plus years ago) that I learned that musicologists and music theoreticians have spent centuries writing about this same subject.

So much has been written about it because we do not have an accurate way to write it. (To notate it) We have our notation of "dotting" a note . . . but bounce typically is something closer to a double-dot or even a triple-dot and we don't use such notation. So . . . we write pages after page trying to explain the way Benny Goodman played or how music of the French Baroque was played . . . or how Earl Scruggs played bounce on various recordings.

My example was (obviously) clawhammer, but clawhammer has nothing to do with it. It can be played on any instrument using any technique.

In my opinion it has nothing to do with accenting (playing one note louder than another). It has everything to do with stretching and contracting time (long-short or short-long). Of course one can combine bounce with accenting and one might think that makes it bounce all the more . . . I don't disagree.

WARNING . . . more boring music theory below
There is a musical term . . . "Rubato" . . . which is an Italian word and in music it means "To Rob Time" (Rubato - to rob or steal something)
In the Italian Baroque era, the idea was to push and pull the beat within a measure, but to then land squarely on the "tactus" . . . the first beat of the next measure. And this, in my opinion is exactly what we do in so many forms of American Music . . . Jazz, Swing, Ragtime, Blues, Country, Bluegrass, Rock and Roll, Old Time . . . and on and on. This manner of playing is something Americans inherited from several cultural sources and is pervasive to this day.

Of course Earl has it! But I doubt he ever thought about it much, if ever. It was just they way those old boys played!

Best Wishes,
Tom

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/28/2010:  10:24:56

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quote:

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Originally posted by O.D.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

But the accents remain on the first and third beats. In fact, in studying how Roger plays, to my ear it sounds like he often drops the second and seventh note from his eight-note right hand pattern, producing something like: 1---2--&3--&4---. By dropping the notes both before and after the downbeat, this REALLY accents that first beat.

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Hey Rich.
I find this thread interesting. Ive been following it.
can you highlight or pin point an example of the above?
Thanks,O.D.

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I go back to the example of Roger Sprung I posted earlier -- his banjo solos here (at :53 and 2:11): youtube.com/watch?v=E2ogLaRDXvE

You can also listen to his solos (from the same concert) here: youtube.com/watch?v=7cONQFNrGk0

Roger may be playing the intervening notes, but they are very de-emphasized. The prevailing rhythm of his bounce -- the one I find most useful in trying to remember it -- is as I described it. Or, using the Chat-ta-noo-ga formulation, it is:

CHAT----Chat--taNOO--gaNoo----CHAT----Chat--taNOO--gaNoo---- ...

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/28/2010:  10:35:46

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quote:

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Originally posted by O.D.

... can you highlight or pin point an example of the above?

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Actually, O.D., I just listened to your recording of "America the Beautiful." That was a terrific example of exactly the rhythm I was talking about.

O.D. - Posted - 11/28/2010:  11:07:26

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That track was recorded with a Band in a Box "country swing" rhtyhm track.
as I stated in a previous thread this right hand rhythm thing is something Ive been messing around with recently.
The midi rhythm file can be thought of as a band and its affect on the right hand approach. It was pretty easy for me to fall into that right hand with the swing rhythm
That was my attempt anyway
Right hand rhythm has always been a challenge for me ,thats one rason I find this topic helpful and interesting.
Im gonna investigate the Roger Sprung vid's and try and learn something.
Thanks for the thread.
Regards, O.D.

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/28/2010:  11:49:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by O.D.

Im gonna investigate the Roger Sprung vid's and try and learn something.

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O.D., you don't live too far from Roger's monthly jam at the United Methodist Church off exit 10 on I-84 in Connecticut. (See the listing here: hvbluegrass.org/events/ongoing-events.html) The next one is Dec. 4. Some people come from much farther away.

O.D. - Posted - 11/28/2010:  12:53:02

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Hey, Thanks Rich.
Ill look into that.
Ive been to a number of HVBA events over the years .
I know a bunch of folks who are involved with the HVBA.
Good organization.
Thanks for the link.
Regards, O.D.

RB-1 - Posted - 11/28/2010:  12:56:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

I go back to the example of Roger Sprung I posted earlier -- his banjo solos here (at :53 and 2:11): youtube.com/watch?v=E2ogLaRDXvE

You can also listen to his solos (from the same concert) here: youtube.com/watch?v=7cONQFNrGk0

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This is how 5 string banjo should be played. Period.

KRbanjo - Posted - 11/28/2010:  17:48:15

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Well, may as well put my .02 cents worth in. I watched the videos that Rich provided and to me that is not bounce. I play drums a little bit and I would be playing that as a swing rhythm because that is what the whole band is playing. It just has a swing feel to it.

I listened to OD's "America The Beautiful" and that is, to me anyway, a swing rhythm. Go to iTunes, search Vic Jordan, listen to the clip of Blackberry Blossom and that is what I would call bounce. I play Blackberry Blossom what I call straight and it is different feel than what Vic Jordan is playing.

Just my opinion.

Kevin

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/28/2010:  17:55:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by RB-1

This is how 5 string banjo should be played. Period.

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I agree with you. Yet I have read comments from many people over the years advocating that eighth notes (or sixteenth notes, if it's 2/4 time) be spaced evenly. I speculated on some possible reasons for this viewpoint above, but no one who advocates this rhythm has offered his or her own reasons.

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/28/2010:  18:04:35

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quote:

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Originally posted by KRbanjo

Well, may as well put my .02 cents worth in. I watched the videos that Rich provided and to me that is not bounce. I play drums a little bit and I would be playing that as a swing rhythm because that is what the whole band is playing. It just has a swing feel to it.

I listened to OD's "America The Beautiful" and that is, to me anyway, a swing rhythm. Go to iTunes, search Vic Jordan, listen to the clip of Blackberry Blossom and that is what I would call bounce. I play Blackberry Blossom what I call straight and it is different feel than what Vic Jordan is playing.

Just my opinion.

Kevin

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Kevin, I listened to Vic Jordan's "Blackberry Blossom." The only differences I hear are that (1) "Blackberry Blossom" is a faster song, so the bounce is naturally less distinct, and (2) Roger and O.D. have added pauses to their renditions, which further accentuate the bounce in theirs. But all three have a bounce rhythm. However, I don't make a distinction between "bounce" and "swing." Bounce swings. If there is a difference, I'm interested to hear what that is.

Stringfella - Posted - 11/28/2010:  19:30:38

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill
You can also listen to his solos (from the same concert) here: youtube.com/watch?v=7cONQFNrGk0

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Not only the solos, but at least most of his playing there is bounced.

quote:

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(RB-1) This is how 5 string banjo should be played. Period.

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There is no certain way, PERIOD, that any instrument should be played. Listen to several different banjo players. Are they playing banjo the wrong way if they're not playing how YOU think they should be played.

KRbanjo - Posted - 11/28/2010:  19:50:21

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Well it's hard to explain in print what I am talking about. I don't agree that bounce is necessarily swing. The underlying rhythm in examples you posted , to me, is swing. Thats how the whole band is playing it.

It just depends on the underlying rhythm of the song. If the underlying rhythm is swing then by all means bounce, I just call it playing swing. If it is a straight 8 tune, and that is how the rhythm section is playing, it depends on the song. But if part are playing staight 8 and another part of the band is playing swing it doesn't work.

stringbreaker - Posted - 11/28/2010:  22:06:34

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im not hearing the bounce in videos of roger. must be difference in terms.

Rysher - Posted - 11/28/2010:  22:38:38

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Scruggs style mixes bounce and straight with some players leaning one way or the other. Earl seemed to mix it up fairly evenly with straight on the front end and swing on the back to produce tension and release. Straight rhythm produces tension that is released at the end of the bar line. Swing, is more relaxed because tensions are evenly released through the spread of the quarter note over the duration of the measure rather than at the end of the bar line.

Dave Magram - Posted - 11/29/2010:  00:09:25

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Rich,

Please pardon my candor, but I’ve become a bit frustrated with the direction this thread has taken and the confusion you are sowing.
To be perfectly honest, it seems that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is wrong, wrong, wrong—and I see very little learning taking place, just debate and confusion.

First, it would have been much more accurate (and honest) to begin this thread not with: “Some people play with bounce. Some don't. Some play with bounce sometimes. Which are you -- and why?”
but with:
“Do you play like Roger Sprung--or not? Why or why not?”

Second, with all due respect, I believe that you are misinformed in several important areas--and I am concerned that you may be confusing other beginners as well.

You seem to confuse some basic musical terms with your own idiosyncratic definitions, in particular, when you wrote to me:
“In other words, "bounce," Earl's "shuffle feel," and Roger's "pairing" are all the same….(and in a later posting) However, I don't make a distinction between "bounce" and "swing."

No-- bounce, swing, and shuffle are not the same.
This is not just my opinion—it is the way these terms are used by many, many experienced musicians.
I even pointed you to a Wikipedia article “Swung note” that clearly differentiated between “swing” and “shuffle”. It even has audio-clips to demonstrate the difference.
Have you read it? Do you understand it?
Or do you believe that whoever wrote the Wikipedia is wrong too?

I don’t know your level of playing ability or your performing experience other than that you said that you play at Roger’s monthly jams.
I suspect you have never worked with a drummer, because if you call out “swing feel” to a drummer when the song is a shuffle, I guarantee you that it will be very difficult to play a shuffle over what the drummer is doing.
When I began playing steel guitar in a country band, I quickly asked the drummer to tell me what drummers called these different rhythms, so I could speak basic drummer language--and swing and shuffle are definitely not the same! (“Bounce” is not a common drummer’s term.)

You wrote:
“Bounce swings. If there is a difference, I'm interested to hear what that is.”
As I have been trying to say all along, “bounce” is not the same as "swing”.
I have tried to explain the difference several times, but to be frank, I have not sensed that you truly are “interested to hear what the difference is”.

I just played a gig earlier today with a country band that included a very experienced drummer who also plays swing and jazz, and a bass player who performed for several years with a full-time nationally-known bluegrass band, as well as rockabilly and country.
Just to do a reality check on my own terminology, I asked them about “bounce”, and the drummer said that it was not a term he had ever heard used to describe a rhythm pattern.
When I mentioned a couple of swing tunes that had “bounce” in the title (Jersey Bounce & Bud’s Bounce), he said “Sure I’ve played those—they’re in swing time. Why do they call them bounces?”
The bass-player was familiar with the term “bounce” only as it has been used to describe Allen Shelton’s “bounce”.
Both agreed with my description of playing ahead of the beat on a “beat clock” to give a song a forward lilt.

Based on my more than 30 years of experience playing bluegrass, country, swing, country shuffles, blues shuffles, Latin rhythms, etc. with a number of bluegrass and country bands (not in jams, but in paid performance situations)-- what Roger Sprung is playing is not “bounce timing”—at least not in the way that term is used by nearly every musician I know.
I agree with KRbanjo who wrote: “I watched the videos that Rich provided [of Sprung] and to me that is not bounce. I play drums a little bit and I would be playing that as a swing rhythm because that is what the whole band is playing. It just has a swing feel to it.”
You wrote:
“In fact, Roger insists that his students tap their foot on the 1st and 3rd beat of each measure. As he puts it: ‘You tap to what the others are playing, and then you play to your foot.’"
Rich, tapping on downbeats one and three and playing on the off-beats two and four is “swing time”.
Wikipedia: “Quarter notes can sound swung when they are … accented on the two and four [beats].”
In other words, Roger is instructing his students to play in swing time, instead of in common duple time, where most bluegrass is played (except waltzes of course).
As I have been saying all along, “swing” is basically accomplished by the soloist accenting the off-beats—beats two and the four in 4/4 time, which is exactly what you are quoting Roger as saying to do.
If you want to call what Roger does as “swing”, fine.
But please don’t call it “bounce”, because it isn’t.
Or do you think Wikipedia has it wrong too?

You wrote:
“What I call "bounce" is dead "on the beat" for the four notes that occur on the four beats of the measure. Only the notes in between -- the off-beat notes -- are affected. This is precisely how Earl notates the rhythm of his "shuffle feel."
No and no.
Rich, you can call a cat a “dog”, but it still can’t bark.
As I have explained several times, “Shelton’s bounce” is not dead on the beat, it is ahead of the beat.
I have quoted Sonny Osborne describing how Shelton plays ahead of the beat (not “dead on the beat”), so I guess Sonny is wrong, too-- according to you.
And how are you so certain that “Only the notes in between -- the off-beat notes -- are affected.”?
Can you demonstrate this in an audio-clip?
Can you provide an audio-clip of you playing a solo so that it sounds like Allen Shelton?
If your answer is “No”, then I am sorry, but your opinions on the matter have zero credibility with me.
If I wanted to improve my tennis-playing, I’d listen to a experienced tennis-player, not someone who has only read books about tennis.

You wrote to me:
“As to the Allen Shelton issue you raise, first, I think you are confusing "bounce" with "drive." Pushing the beat gives the music drive. It doesn't give it bounce.”
I don’t think so, Rich. I have posted a clip of my playing with what many people have told me is a lot of drive, and you’ll just have to take my word that I have played with “bounce” (a la Shelton) on occasion.
If I can play with both drive and bounce, I’d have to be mighty stupid to confuse the two, wouldn’t I?
Your comment is really rather insulting.

You wrote:
I've spent many, many hours with Roger. I think I know what he means and doesn't mean.…And it has nothing to do with advancing the downbeat of a measure ahead of the other instruments.”
This takes us back to my original point—your true agenda is to promote Roger’s banjo style.
That’s great—go for it!
Just please do not confuse new players with a bunch of misinformation.

And if Roger is not playing ahead of the beat as you state he is not ("And it has nothing to do with advancing the downbeat") , then he is not playing with “bounce” as most experienced banjo players have used the term.
It is possible that you are correct and I am wrong-- along with Wikipedia, Sonny Osborne, Tony Trischka, Don Reno, Pete Wernick, and dozens of experienced musicians I have played with.
What are the odds?

You said to me:
“But it sounds to me like Shelton is hitting the downbeat at the same time the other instruments are hitting the downbeat. Or perhaps I can't hear the slight difference, if there is any."
I believe that you have put your finger on the problem in that last sentence, Rich.
If you can’t hear the difference, then all the words in the world can’t explain it.
I would suggest that instead of reading about music, you start listening to it and trying to play it.
As JD Crowe said: “It’s really hard to try to tell someone (about timing)…it’s like trying to teach someone how to taste.”
Those of us who have tried to sound like Allen Shelton can certainly hear the "slight difference", cause it ain’t easy to get that “Shelton bounce”!

I’ve been fortunate to have learned from some excellent musicians and in turn I enjoy helping others to learn-- if they are interested in what I have to offer.
But it’s like the old joke about how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer: Only one, but the light bulb has to really want to change!

Rich, I’ve come to the conclusion that (at least in this thread) you do not seem at all interested in learning or changing your mind--you just want to debate.
Let me know when you decide to shift to learning mode, and I’ll be glad to help you if I can.

Good luck,
Dave

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Edited by - Dave Magram on 11/29/2010 01:42:11

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/29/2010:  06:45:04

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Magram

You wrote:
“What I call "bounce" is dead "on the beat" for the four notes that occur on the four beats of the measure. Only the notes in between -- the off-beat notes -- are affected. This is precisely how Earl notates the rhythm of his "shuffle feel."
No and no.
Rich, you can call a cat a “dog”, but it still can’t bark.

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Dave, did you look at the page I referenced (p. 62) in the current edition of Earl Scruggs and the 5-String Banjo? [I did you the courtesy of looking at the pages you cited in Masters of the 5-String Banjo, only to find that you had taken your key quotation out of context (as I later pointed out).] Have you seen the repeated references to "shuffle feel" in Earl's book -- and how, with each reference, "shuffle feel" is defined with an illustration in standard music notation? Each time, "shuffle feel" is defined (in 2/4 time) as follows: four sixteenth notes played as a dotted sixteenth note followed by a thirty-second note followed by a dotted sixteenth note followed by a thirty-second note. That's how Earl defines "shuffle feel," not me. The beats (the first and third notes) remain on the beat; only the half-beats (the second and fourth notes) are delayed. Perhaps you should direct your argument at Earl, not me, and play "Dueling Resumes" with him.

I also don't understand your statement now that "I even pointed you to a Wikipedia article 'Swung note' that clearly differentiated between 'swing' and 'shuffle.'” Here's what you said before:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Magram

Wikipedia describes “swung note or shuffle note” as “some notes with equal written time values are performed with unequal durations, usually as alternating long and short.”
Rich, you will be interested to know that the Wikipedia article describes “A swing or shuffle rhythm is the rhythm produced by playing repeated pairs of notes in this way (alternating long and short).”—which may be what Roger Sprung was alluding to with his term “pairing”.

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How do you read that as "clearly differentiat[ing] between 'swing' and 'shuffle'”? The article -- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_time -- does make a slight distinction, but only that "in shuffle rhythm, the first note in the pair is exactly twice the duration of the second note," while "in swing the division is inexact." Thus, even here, the distinction is not in the basic nature of swing vs. shuffle, only in the degree.

I also made it clear that I wanted to avoid all of this needless digression into semantics (as it is apparent that people use many different terms to denote playing eight eighth notes (in 4/4 time) not as eight evenly-spaced notes). I wanted to focus this discussion on why players choose to play their notes as "even eights." That's the discussion I tried to have:

quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

Playing it is more important than defining it.

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My purpose in starting this thread had nothing to do with definitions. So let me flip the question around: Why play eight-note rolls as eight evenly spaced notes, including for slow songs? Is this the sound you prefer? Is it because that's what the tab says? Is that how you were instructed to play? Does using a metronome have anything to do with it? Is it because of how others play? Is it because you've never tried to play any other way (or have tried another way without success)?

I've made no secret of how I was taught, and the timing I prefer. I respect contrary points of view, but would like to understand them better. For example, I myself have wondered whether sad songs should be played with bounce. Maybe bounce is a key reason "you can't play a sad song on the banjo" -- and should be dropped from some songs for just this reason. But I do love that sound.

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I find it curious when people advocate playing rolls with "rock solid" evenness. I simply asked, "Why?"

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Edited by - Rich Weill on 11/29/2010 08:51:41

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/29/2010:  07:04:18

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"Why play eight-note rolls as eight evenly spaced notes, including for slow songs?" -- Rich Weil

This is an interesting question. I would like to see some answers myself. Especially in regard the slow songs, since bounce disappears at a fast tempo. How about some MP3 examples? Dave Magram posted an example without bounce, but I think the tempo was a little bit too fast for a good example.

JoeDownes - Posted - 11/29/2010:  07:09:28

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Here's an example of beautiful slow playing without swing/shuffle feel: youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9T8kar4jM

steve davis - Posted - 11/29/2010:  07:14:38

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Playing with a good sense of what sounds right and compliments the band is a
great skill.When everyone is doing that,a strong groove is realized.
Finding the right words to describe it is a whole 'nutha thing.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/29/2010:  07:19:20

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quote:

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I find it curious when people advocate playing rolls with "rock solid" evenness. I simply asked, "Why?"

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Rich

I think when folks are advocating 'playing rolls with rock solid evenness' , what they are trying to get across is that 'drive' comes from a repeatable process. To get solid timing, one has to identify what 'even' means and establish that first, before venturing into more complex territory, rhythmically speaking. "Drive" really comes from finding the groove and staying with it. For most beginners/less experienced players, learning to get 'drive' comes from playing 'rock steady' rolls and learning how to syncopate them. Once you accomplish that, you can try to incorporate swing,shuffle/"Bounce".
No one with an open mind would advocate playing straight 8ths as the only way to play. As to 'when' to play straight or swingy, it depends on the music being played, your sense of taste and your ability to play with 'bounce'/'swing'.
I met Roger about 25 years ago at Galax Fiddlers convention. Hes a gem of a guy/player. He infuses alot of different styles into his playing , which he calls 'progressive'. Im not sure I would call it 'progressive' as much as 'retrogressive'-. He has a lot of ragtime/tenor flavor in his playing , as Ive heard it,and hes very good at it, obviously. Im thinking his rhythmic approach is based on his amalgamation of what we call bluegrass playing with the older styles of banjo too. He great at what he does.
If you wanted to explore this topic and get more understanding of 'straight' and 'bounce', then you should listen to alot of more traditional 'Scruggs' players, then some Reno, Adcock, clawhammer, etc and compare that to Roger's approach. It should yield some valuable insights into what makes these styles/players tick, in regards to rhythm.

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/29/2010:  07:22:26

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quote:

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Originally posted by JoeDownes

Here's an example of beautiful slow playing without swing/shuffle feel: youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9T8kar4jM

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Thanks, Joe. I'm not familiar with the piece Ira is playing. Perhaps he will respond and tell us why he played it as he did. It may have to do with the mood Ira wanted to create. As I said, playing "even eights" seems take out a lot of the banjo's "happy instrument" sound.

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/29/2010:  07:26:28

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Thank you for posting that video of Ira. No swing or shuffle, I suppose, BUT it seems to my ear that there was a lot of bounce in his playing.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/29/2010:  07:37:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

As I said, playing "even eights" seems take out a lot of the banjo's "happy instrument" sound.

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There's times when you dont want 'happy sounds'. Ira's tune didn't elicit any 'happy' mood, even though it had some bounce. I dont think 'happy' was the intent, since it was a modal tune.
Hopefully Ira will chime in.

steve davis - Posted - 11/29/2010:  07:42:34

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The best way to learn about shuffle time is to play with a fiddler who has good command of that time.

phillygtr - Posted - 11/29/2010:  08:02:11

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Are we just talking about "swinging" your notes?

JoeDownes - Posted - 11/29/2010:  08:06:59

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

quote:

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Originally posted by JoeDownes

Here's an example of beautiful slow playing without swing/shuffle feel: youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9T8kar4jM

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Thanks, Joe. I'm not familiar with the piece Ira is playing. Perhaps he will respond and tell us why he played it as he did. It may have to do with the mood Ira wanted to create. As I said, playing "even eights" seems take out a lot of the banjo's "happy instrument" sound.

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When I play St James Infirmary I play swung 1/8ths and it sure doesn't sound happy at all. I don't associate straight or swung with any particular mood. I like to hear both qualities, depending on what works best for the material.

phillygtr - Posted - 11/29/2010:  08:08:55

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Another thing... though I'm a newbie on banjo, I do tend to go in and out of the "bounce" or "swing" feel with the straight feel. What's cool about that is if I do it dramatically enough, I can almost get away with doing the same break twice, but with two different feels. In other words, same notes as before, but with a different emphasis on the notes/space. Changing up the feel can kind of buy you and extra break without coming up with anything new (lol).

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/29/2010:  08:52:04

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Remember the recent thread on the importance of Music Theory? I didn't think theory important. But this thread is a great example of where theory is important.

Although I can tell when a fiddle shuffles, I don't know how to describe it in words. I know it musically because I could reproduce the shuffle if I had a fiddle and could play it. But I can't really talk about it. I don't have the theory.

Bounce, on the other hand, can be described exactly in simple terms. Not a switch, bounce is a slider that goes from 0 -- 10. In a half measure, the bounce can be measured exactly: adjacent notes that were equally spaced are moved but the total space of the half measure stays the same. If you stretch out the space a little bit between two notes, then you have to shorten the space between the next two notes so it comes out even. It's like rubato for the note spacing rather than for the notes themselves. All these other ideas that keep popping up in this thread have to do with notes, not the note spacing. In short, bounce has nothing to do with musical notes.

I think a few examples/MP3s of slow bluegrass songs without bounce (or bounce set at zero) would help. I can't think of any, offhand; there must be some, right?

But if we could listen, then maybe it would make more sense why you need bounce in bluegrass performance.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/29/2010:  09:36:11

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You dont have to have 'bounce' for a 'bluegrass performance'. Bounce is just one way to express rhythm. Its not an "either or" situation. Sometimes you play 'straight', sometimes you swing/bounce,shuffle or combinations of all.
Theory is just using terminology to give names to the concepts which we express as music. Understanding what you hear is as important as the hearing of it. If you know the theory terminology thats good, but make sure you can hear and understand the sounds first. The theory language helps musicians communicate better.

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Edited by - Banjophobic on 11/29/2010 09:41:06

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/29/2010:  09:46:13

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I want to hear the real thing. The slow bluegrass tune without bounce. My last post was begging for substance over talk. I want to know more about it like Rich Weil.

PS: It may be, John, that we are saying the same thing. Everyone uses bounce as a technique; some use it more than others. You aren't saying that some don't use bounce at all, like an AA member swears off booze, right?

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Edited by - Richard Dress on 11/29/2010 09:58:32

Don Borchelt - Posted - 11/29/2010:  10:00:42

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Banjophobic wrote: "Bounce is just one way to express rhythm. Its not an "either or" situation. Sometimes you play 'straight', sometimes you swing/bounce,shuffle or combinations of all."

Well said, John. That about sums it up.

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Edited by - Don Borchelt on 11/29/2010 10:02:55

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/29/2010:  10:03:29

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

I want to hear the real thing. The slow bluegrass tune without bounce. My last post was begging for substance over talk. I want to know more about it like Rich Weil.

PS: It may be, John, that we are saying the same thing. Everyone uses bounce as a technique; some use it more than others. You aren't saying that some don't use bounce at all, like an AA member swears off booze, right?

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No, Im not saying some never play with Bounce. what I said was that you dont play with Bounce everytime. So logically, most players switch between straight feel and swing feel. I dont think Ive ever heard any well known player who is totally devoid of swing in their playing. But I dont think I can think of someone who plays with bounce all the time either. Its always a combination of both, depending on the mood and type of material.

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/29/2010:  10:34:41

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OK. That makes sense.

I played without bounce for many years and when I look back now I see it was a major defect. That's my answer to Rich's original question.

However, there are some respected pickers who preach against that practice of bounce. I would like to understand more about this point of view, at least how it fits in a bluegrass [scruggs] style context. Is it a matter of repertoire or of musical taste? Would such a picker listen to Allen Shelton play 'Lady of Spain' and say "that would sound much better with straight eights"?

Here is Allen Shelton's "Lady of Spain"

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Edited by - Richard Dress on 11/30/2010 12:19:05

JoeDownes - Posted - 11/29/2010:  10:46:18

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Here's a slow bluegrass song without the swing feel. youtube.com/watch?v=9TL6Ug1o300

Swing and straight are both valid options for bluegrass banjo. I wouldn't want to choose between the two, and luckily I don't have to.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/29/2010:  11:00:19

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

OK. That makes sense.

I played without bounce for many years and when I look back now I see it was a major defect. That's my answer to Rich's original question.

However, there are some respected pickers who preach against that practice of bounce. I would like to understand more about this point of view, at least how it fits in a bluegrass [scruggs] style context. Is it a matter of repertoire or of musical taste? Would such a picker listen to Allen Shelton play 'Lady of Spain' and say "that would sound much better with straight eights"?

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I wouldnt say it was a major defect, unless thats the only way you could play. Allens version is great and captures the mood of that tune very well. But Ive heard versions that werent as swingly/bouncy and liked them too.

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/29/2010:  11:16:12

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"Here's a slow bluegrass song without the swing feel. youtube.com/watch?v=9TL6Ug1o300" -- JoeDownes

Here's where I fall short on music theory. To me 'straight eights' is what you get when the bounce slider is set to zero. This Alison Krauss clip is great. Love her dress. Lot's of bounce in this tune.

JoeDownes - Posted - 11/29/2010:  11:50:38

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Hmm, the banjo playing sounds pretty straight to me. There's lots of syncopation going on in Ron's playing, but no swung eights. At least it sounds like that to me.

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Edited by - JoeDownes on 11/29/2010 11:51:44

Dave Magram - Posted - 11/30/2010:  09:36:48

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Rich,

Your remarks to me and about me on 11/29 are offensive and deceitful.
You are entitled to spout your opinions, but I will not allow you to invent “facts” or impugn my honesty without challenge.

You wrote:
“Dave, did you look at the page I referenced (p. 62) in the current edition of Earl Scruggs and the 5-String Banjo?”
I’ve already stated that I do not own the latest edition of Earl’s book. And I have no intention of plunking down $35 just to waste more time debating with you about what Earl wrote.
Music is about listening, not reading.
When I want to learn more about Earl’s playing, I listen to it over and over and try to figure out how to emulate it the best I can.
That is what people do if they really want to learn how to play the banjo.
It’s called “paying your dues”.

You wrote:
“ [I did you the courtesy of looking at the pages you cited in Masters of the 5-String Banjo..”
What “courtesy”? You didn’t do a thing.
I laboriously typed into my postings the entire quotations from the book, so that people who don’t own the book could benefit from the discussion.
Your comment is self-serving claptrap.

You wrote:
“…only to find that you had taken your key quotation out of context (as I later pointed out).]”
That sir, is a lie!
I took nothing out of context.
You simply don’t agree with my understanding of what these great banjo-players said.
You are welcome to disagree with me, but I do not appreciate your impugning my honesty.

Rich, I responded to your thread not to debate with you, but because I foolishly thought you sincerely wanted to learn something.
Boy, was I mistaken!

You wrote:
“Perhaps you should direct your argument at Earl, not me, and play "Dueling Resumes" with him.”
I would never argue with Earl Scruggs’ musical genius or challenge his musical resume.

However, I hereby challenge you to produce your musical resume.
I think we all deserve to know the source of your infinite wisdom about how to play the banjo.

I have previously posted my musical bio, band experience, audio-clips of my playing, and a cut from a commercially available recording I performed on. It took me only about 20 minutes.

I think it only fair that you do the same, Rich.
Please post your musical bio, band experience, audio-clips of your playing, and a cut from a commercially available recording you performed on--so the rest of us can determine your credibility to instruct all of us on how to play the banjo.
Jam sessions and reading don’t count.
Please do so within the next 48 hours.

Thanks,
-Dave

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Edited by - Dave Magram on 11/30/2010 09:46:36

JoeDownes - Posted - 11/30/2010:  10:44:45

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I've read many discussions on this board and whenever people talk about 'bounce', they seem to refer to syncopation and/or swung eights. I don't remember anyone ever calling playing ahead of the beat 'bounce'. Maybe this new way of explaining bounce is the one and only true way of looking at it, maybe it just adds to the confusion. 'Bounce' means different things to different people. I don't see why we can't leave it at that and keep on discussing swung eights vs straight eights, like Rich intended to do.

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Edited by - JoeDownes on 11/30/2010 10:45:39

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/30/2010:  11:54:09

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quote:

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Originally posted by JoeDownes

Hmm, the banjo playing sounds pretty straight to me. There's lots of syncopation going on in Ron's playing, but no swung eights. At least it sounds like that to me.

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Joe, Please help me here. I shouldn't have mentioned straight-eights, swing, sync, and stuff like that--I don't have much feel for it, all that messing around with the note size. Bounce is about where the note is standing relative to the next note, not how big the note is compared to the next note. Are we on the same page with that distinction?

Dave Magram - Posted - 11/30/2010:  11:57:16

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Joe,

You wrote:
"'Bounce' means different things to different people. I don't see why we can't leave it at that and keep on discussing swung eights vs straight eights"

I completely agree with you.

As I have been saying all along, "swing", "shuffle", "straight eights", and "syncopation" are standard musical terms with widely-accepted definitions.
"Bounce" is not.

In bluegrass, the only context I have heard the term "bounce" widely used in is to describe Allen Shelton's playing.
In trying to emulate Allen Shelton's "bounce" (one of my all-time favorite banjo-players), I found that if I played slightly ahead of the downbeat, it began to sound a little bit like his playing.
My conclusion is that Allen is playing slightly ahead of the metronomic downbeat.
This was further confirmed to me by reading Sonny Osborne's quote (that I posted earlier) about "three-quarters of the way around the beat", because Sonny himself really knew how to shift the beat in subtle and wonderful ways.

But if that (playing slightly ahead of the metronomic downbeat) is what is going on when Allen plays (not necessarily his "swing" material like "Banjo Bounce") but bluegrass material like "Standing on a Mountain"-- it requires a solid downbeat provided by a bass and or guitar to "bounce " off of.
Does that make sense?

This was confirmed to me when I played for several years with an excellent bass-player who, like Shelton, played slightly ahead of where the metronomic downbeat would occur.
It gave "bounce" to the whole band and made playing the banjo like ice-skating (as opposed to "trudging through mud" when a bass-player drags slightly behind the beat).

So when people describe a banjoist playing without accompaniment as having "bounce", I do not understand how they know.
I'd probably use a term like "slight syncopation" or "lilt" to describe an unaccompanied banjo player.
But that's just me.

More importantly--who cares?
As several people have said here, music is for playing-- not describing in words.
It's helpful to have some recognized terminology to use at pick-up gigs or rehearsals--such as "swing", "shuffle", and "syncopation", or specifics--"Can we accent the off-beat a bit more in the chorus?" (for example).

"Bounce" is something that you the banjoist can add to the band sound--if you can.
It is unrelated to "swing" or "shuffle", which are the basic underlying rhythm patterns.

Just my 2 cents.

- Dave

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/30/2010:  12:13:45

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'Bounce' or 'jazz eighth notes' is a well understood term. At least I have seen it explained in a number of bluegrass references and lectures. I have already given two explanations of bounce in these four pages somewhere. If I could work my art program I would post a picture. Bounce gives your playing the feeling of an egg rolling downhill; it's a rhythmic affect. Bounce, yes no or maybe is what the thread is all about. Most bluegrass, especially slow songs are bouncy. Bounce fades away as tempo increases. You can't feel it much in fast tunes.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/30/2010:  12:56:52

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I agree about confusing terminology. But "bounce" has been a word used to describe the swing feel for a long time now and its become and accepted term. Theres some other terms that are used to describe musical actions like 'syncopation', that get mixed up with true definitions. The term "Drive" is used in BG vernacular, but its often misunderstood. I quess we'll have to learn to be multi-lingual....[:D