Flying Eagle - Posted - 12/04/2010:  07:33:38

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Jody, to me, Allen Shelton was a master at playing with a syncopated rhythm. This is what I consider to be the equivalent of "bounce", "playing ahead of the beat", or whatever. Is my terminology incorrect with that?

JW

Rich Weill - Posted - 12/04/2010:  09:17:06

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Earlier, I incorrectly stated that Earl Scruggs, in Earl Scruggs and the 5-String Banjo, defined what he calls "shuffle feel" (in standard notation, in 2/4 time) as "four sixteenth notes played as a dotted sixteenth note followed by a thirty-second note followed by a dotted sixteenth note followed by a thirty-second note." I had written this from memory. When I went back and checked the book, I found that Earl's notation was different. It was four sixteen notes played as two pairs of eighth note-sixteenth note triplets. In other words, each pair of sixteenth notes is to be played as if they were a triplet of three sixteenth notes, with the first two of those triplets tied together. [So instead of my original illustration, where the first and third notes are held three times as long as the second and fourth, the first and third notes are held twice as long as the second and fourth.]

I tried to scan and post how it is notated in Earl's book. I accomplished the scanning part, but couldn't figure out the posting part.

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Edited by - Rich Weill on 12/04/2010 09:18:01

Dave Magram - Posted - 12/04/2010:  09:35:02

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Richard,

You wrote:
“Yes, Dave, that is the whole story on bounce. Simple, right? Instead of equal spacing you have long, short, long, short, ... all the way to the end of the song.”

I respectfully disagree.
Yes, that would be the simple explanation, and it may be what you and some others perceive.
But perception does not always equal reality—unless you truly believe that stage magicians can actually levitate in the air or saw people in half and put them back together again.
I don’t believe that they can—although I cannot explain how they trick us into thinking that they can.

It may be possible to change the spacing of the notes at teaching tempos of 1 note every two seconds, which is about the tempo that Rich McKeon was demonstrating “Chatanooga” on that clip I saw.
However, in my opinion, it is quite impossible to change the spacing of the notes at actual bluegrass tempos, which are as fast as 11 notes per second.
I am basing that opinion on listening intently to many great banjo-players and playing banjo myself for many years.
IMO, the goal for great banjo-playing is perfectly even spacing with subtle accents to bring out the melody, add drive, add “bounce”, etc.

To my ear, Shelton is spacing his notes at exactly equal points--and now we have Peter’s waveform analysis proving that Shelton spaced his notes evenly—with the spacing between the notes at 0.12125 of a second (less than 1/8 of a second)!
Peter wrote:
“The average measure lasts about 0.97 seconds and has 8 notes played (1&2&3&4&). This averages .12125 seconds per note…”
I asked Peter specifically to confirm that Allen was spacing his notes equally, and he wrote: “You are correct…”
That is the reality.

You wrote:
“Bounce has nothing to do with the actual notes, just the space in between. So accent, dotted notes, swing, messing with the beat and all that stuff has nothing to do with bounce.”

I must respectfully disagree with that statement also.
If as Peter has proven, Shelton is spacing his notes equally, then there must be some other explanation of Shelton’s “bounce”.
As Sherlock Holmes said, ”When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Peter just eliminated the impossible, so Shelton’s “bounce” has to come from either where Shelton is playing in relation to the metronomic downbeat, or which part of the downbeat or upbeat he is accenting, or both.
Sonny Osborne (and I) believe that Shelton is playing ahead of the beat.
Other people on this thread believe that Shelton is accenting the off-beat.
IMO, that is the mystery we are trying to solve.

However, there is an easy way to prove me wrong…
Simply record yourself playing a tune at 120 bpm with UNEQUAL spacing between the notes, and post the audio-clip so we can analyze it and measure the distance between the waveform peaks.

- Dave

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Edited by - Dave Magram on 12/04/2010 10:09:40

Rich Weill - Posted - 12/04/2010:  09:54:08

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Peter, could you do the same Audacity analysis with this Shelton tune: youtube.com/watch?v=ansy3950bQ4? It's a little slower (and hence bouncier).

Richard's observations regarding the spaces between the notes (with which, in my uncredentialed opinion, I agree) is the reason bounce dissipates at high speeds. The space difference disappears as all the spaces shrink.

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/04/2010:  10:21:56

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Dave, you are saying talk is cheap. I have to agree, a sound file is worth a thousand words. I'll post something for you, but measuring the peaks won't tell you much, since I will post banjo only (that eliminates questions about the beat).

Nevertheless, what I write here about bounce has nothing to do with me at all. Like most untalented pickers, I had to learn it the hard way. Bounce was there before me and people played it and talked about it, at least some of them talked about it. Most pickers just picked it and didn't care about names. Bounce didn't get talked about in mainstream music because it wasn't mainstream, it was a narrow part of some varieties of white and black roots music; through white roots it wandered into bluegrass at the beginning and has sunk into the foundations.

I can't think of a first generation band that didn't play with bounce. Allen Shelton was just a guy who was looking to stand out from the scruggs crowd. Competition was fierce and Earl Scruggs left little room for improvements on his style. So Allen scooped up bounce for himself: he played with the bounce slider run all the way up to the stops at 10--far away from the settings Scruggs chose. I never noticed bounce before until I heard it played at max by Allen Shelton. Too much bounce probably grates on some ears but not mine. I love it and abuse it whenever I can.

Dave Magram - Posted - 12/04/2010:  10:54:08

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Richard,

You wrote:
"Dave, you are saying talk is cheap."
Not really, Richard--I've listened to a couple of your clips, and I know that you can play.

I just do not believe that one can space the notes unequally at performance tempos, even thought it might sound that way to some people.

I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or prove that I'm right.
It's a science experiment--we're just testing hypotheses of How Allen Shelton Got His Bounce. :-)
Even Allen didn't know how he did it.

- Dave

schwimbo - Posted - 12/04/2010:  13:06:47

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Dave (and all) - I didn't say that Allen was spacing his notes equally. If you re-check what I posted, I said that the space between notes would average .12125 seconds but that Allen was spacing them so that there was more time between the numbered notes and the & note (.13 to .14 seconds) compared to between the & note and the numbered note (.11 to .10 seconds). I think that Dave at first did restate my findings:

You wrote:
“However, Allen divides the time up so that for instance, the numbered beat might last around .13 or .14 sec, but the "&" lasts around .11 or .10 seconds. There is a little variation, but this is in general what I think contributes to the feel that Allen gets.”
And I understand from this statement that the notes on the numbered downbeats consistently lasted about 0.03 second longer than the notes on the “&”—correct?

I agreed that this is what I found out, but later Dave says that I have proven something else (which I didn't):

If as Peter has proven, Shelton is spacing his notes equally, then there must be some other explanation of Shelton’s “bounce”.
As Sherlock Holmes said, ”When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

Peter just eliminated the impossible, so Shelton’s “bounce” has to come from either where Shelton is playing in relation to the metronomic downbeat, or which part of the downbeat or upbeat he is accenting, or both.



To state again what I found with Audacity (using both visual analysis of the waveforms and listening at slow speeds - which by the way showed that the bass and banjo were hitting the 1 and the 3 at the same time, and the banjo and mandolin chop were together for 2 and 4) was that there was a longer duration of the numbered notes (1,2,3,4) compared to the "&" notes between.

To answer Jody's question - since the track was a mono track, you can't visually separate the banjo notes from the bass notes without some processing, but if you eq the mono track to pass just the low frequency part, and then compare the bass notes which are now more prominent to the original track, you can see that for the most part, the bass notes and banjo notes line up. There are times here and there where the bass player is a little irregular timing wise in that he drags for a note or two compared to both the mandolin and banjo, but then is back together with them. Listening at slow speed is maybe a more satisfying way of hearing that the bass and banjo (and mandolin) are for the most part locked together (allowing some lapses due to "human error") and do play the numbered beats together.

stanger - Posted - 12/04/2010:  13:19:28

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I've noticed that bounce decreases as speed increases in my playing.

After listening to some Shelton recordings after reading this thread, I heard Alan doing the same on some of the very fast Jim & Jesse stuff. There just isn't enough time between notes to accent them as much at the high speeds.

In a lot of the bouncy banjo playing, I hear notes being dropped out of rolls, notes with added or decreased time in between them, and notes that are accented in volume. All of this stuff is the same syncopation that's heard in other instruments and in other types of music.

Bluegrass and old-time music has never been in a sonic vacuum all it's own- jazz, marches, ragtime, klezmer, classic, and many other types of music have influenced them from the beginning and continue to do so now.
regards,
stanger

Jody Hughes - Posted - 12/04/2010:  13:22:48

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Hmm, I did a really quick analysis of his "Banjo Bounce" recording. I figured out what tempo they were at (which isn't consistent from part to part BTW), made a click track and then added soundfile in. Then I slowed it down really slow and looked at the click track versus music.
I'm hearing him play early on a great of the beats. Some of them he is right on it, but a lot of the time he is early. Once again, this was done pretty quickly a couple of times. It's pretty hard for me to say, considering the band does in fact speed the tempo. He may just be rushing because of that?

I personally believe most of the bounce is accenting, but I'm not yet ready to dismiss that he may be playing ahead of the beat slightly.
I'll try again later.

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Edited by - Jody Hughes on 12/04/2010 13:24:58

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/04/2010:  13:32:58

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Seems like to me these in depth waveform investigates and the variances in 'on beat', ahead/behind the beat', etc are just showing how much Allen's overall timing is moving slightly. No matter how good someone is, their timing will never be perfectly where they intend it and if you look at it from a waveform, down to micro seconds, this moving around seems even harder to quantify. I think its better to 'xoom out', and look at his playing not at micro seconds, but in real time, to find the bounce/swing. I think a small amount of 'push' is always evident in most players who play with bounce/swing and is just a natural by-product of BG banjo playing.

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/04/2010:  13:39:13

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rysher

The term ain't is also well established and in the dictionary but use of that word might suggest certain income or education levels. And yes banjo theory would largely be a translation of banjo terminology to terms that that most musicians could understand like swing and straight instead bounce and drive. The first step in debating is to clarify terms and that's what I am trying to do. If you like the terms bounce and drive then use them. Many people fought to get ain't in the dictionary and use that word every day.

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Well, that's some nice societal profiling youve got going on Rysher,haha. Im from the south and many times we use 'aint' and 'durn' and "lesseat" as perfectly legitimate colloquialisms . Just because someone chooses to use the word 'aint', does not mean they are poor or stupid. The same holds true for 'drive' and 'bounce'. We bluegrass banjoists know what these terms mean and what it is when we hear it. I quess with your logic every BG player who chooses to use the terms 'bouce' are either poor,stupid or both? Man, I think you need to rephrase this post or folks 'aint' gonna like it much.

schwimbo - Posted - 12/04/2010:  13:43:42

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If you want to look at some other players who I think played with bounce, and look at the waveforms (not to the nano second - and there is some variance there), check out some Bill Emerson when he played with the Country Gentlemen (I just did this with Fox on the Run). There is definitely the difference in time between the longer numbered notes and the "&" notes in between. Emerson was bouncy in my opinion, and yet he didn't push the beat at all. Some very good players have said that he played more on the "back-side" of the beat (not to sound nasty or anything). Yet it still sounds bouncy (at least to me). It is a lazier bouncy feel than Allen Shelton's playing (which is the way I hear it, right on the beat), but it seems to show that you can play bouncy whether you are behind the beat a little, right on the beat, or perhaps a little ahead of the beat.

schwimbo - Posted - 12/04/2010:  14:12:04

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John Boulding wrote: The same holds true for 'drive' and 'bounce'. We bluegrass banjoists know what these terms mean and what it is when we hear it. I quess with your logic every BG player who chooses to use the terms 'bouce' are either poor,stupid or both?

Maybe bluegrass players who use the term "bounce" would be OK, but if they used the term "bouce", people might wonder. :-)

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/04/2010:  14:17:16

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quote:

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Originally posted by schwimbo

John Boulding wrote: The same holds true for 'drive' and 'bounce'. We bluegrass banjoists know what these terms mean and what it is when we hear it. I quess with your logic every BG player who chooses to use the terms 'bouce' are either poor,stupid or both?

Maybe bluegrass players who use the term "bounce" would be OK, but if they used the term "bouce", people might wonder. :-)

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Pete

You know I was using the French spelling..right...hahahaha.

I should change that, but Im not so that Rhysher can try and use it against me,haha.

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/04/2010:  15:12:15

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"I just do not believe that one can space the notes unequally at performance tempos, even thought it might sound that way to some people." -- Dave

You are right to ask for a picture when words don't cut it. You bounce when you lengthen the space between two notes; so as not to change the tempo of the song you have to compensate by making the next notes closer together. Once you make the first change, you have to keep changing until the end of the song--no going back. Long, short, long, short, ....

You probably play with some bounce and don't even know it. Remember, bounce is on a sliding scale.

Here's the promised clip: youtube.com/watch?v=4gTn891ycn0

JoeDownes - Posted - 12/04/2010:  15:25:41

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i found an interesting article from a jazz/classical piano player, who has his own view of bounce. danadler.com/articles/b/Bounce.htm

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/04/2010:  15:37:59

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Interesting article but that guy has chosen the word 'bounce' to describe a piano technique for shaping notes. Our bluegrass bounce is about the placement of notes no matter what shape they are in. In jazz the correct term for what we are talking about is 'jazz eighth notes'. If he was really talking about bounce, then he would say jazz eighth notes and not bounce, right?

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 12/04/2010:  21:09:31

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Magram


I just do not believe that one can space the notes unequally at performance tempos, even thought it might sound that way to some people.

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But there are many different "performance tempos" and many different players. As with any other speed-limited element of playing (e.g., repeating a right-hand finger), each player will have his/her own personal speed limit. Some players may be unable to maintain uneven spacing at 120 BPM, while others may be able to do it at 140 or perhaps even 150. Hey, schwimbo, can you analyze Terry Baucom's note spacing on "Mighty Mississippi", from the first Quicksilver album?

schwimbo - Posted - 12/05/2010:  01:25:14

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Hi Ira,

I probably could do that but I need the sound file, and I have it only on LP so it is hard to get onto the computer. I did just copy "Don't Cross The River" from the same album and here is what Audacity shows about Terry's playing: 4 measures (total of 32 notes) lasts 4.04 seconds, so each note "averages" 0.12625 seconds. Looking at the actual playing shows that Terry puts some bounce in his playing (which of course one can hear without Audactiy's help). He plays the numbered notes with around .14 seconds duration, and the "&" notes with about .11 seconds of duration. I'd guess that in Mighty Mississippi, the timing evens out a bit because the tempo is faster, but I'd bet that there is a bit of bounce, though less pronounced.

schwimbo - Posted - 12/05/2010:  01:27:40

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Or should I say, there is a bit of "bouce" (for the poor and stupid). :-)

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 12/05/2010:  08:05:10

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I've got the album tucked away in storage, but no digital copy of the song. I mentioned it here because I noticed, years ago, that that DL&Q/TB recording had something that I just couldn't duplicate, and it seemed to me that TB was bouncing (whatever that means) at a higher tempo than I could manage.

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/05/2010:  08:49:03

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quote:

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Originally posted by JoeDownes

i found an interesting article from a jazz/classical piano player, who has his own view of bounce. danadler.com/articles/b/Bounce.htm

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Excellent article Joe and I noticed it mentioned 'jazz' and 'guitar'. Maybe the term 'bounce' does have similar meaning outside of the BG world then. Interesting stuff. It would be nice if the 'anti bounce' crowd would read it and give us some feedback. Do you think hes saying the same thing about 'bounce' as some of us are? If so, does this mean 'bounce' isnt something we BG'ers made up? I aint quite sure yet....

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Edited by - Banjophobic on 12/05/2010 08:56:18

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/05/2010:  08:50:34

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quote:

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Originally posted by schwimbo

Or should I say, there is a bit of "bouce" (for the poor and stupid). :-)

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It wouldnt be politically correct Pete. The mods would come down on the thread-

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/05/2010:  09:05:18

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Bluegrassers didn't make it up, John. I think a lot of the OT bands in your part of the country naturally played with bounce. Listen to Seven Foot Dilly that I recently posted as an example of "bust down". And here is the Carter Family with their characteristic bouncy feel:

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/05/2010:  09:20:43

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

Bluegrassers didn't make it up, John. I think a lot of the OT bands in your part of the country naturally played with bounce. Listen to Seven Foot Dilly that I recently posted as an example of "bust down". And here is the Carter Family with their characteristic bouncy feel:

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I know bounce exists but its meaning seems to different between different players on this thread. But some seem to think the name 'bounce' iks something completely made up. I found Joes article interesting as it mentioned and even attempted to quantify 'bounce', outside the realm of BG. If the term 'bounce' is used outside our genre, then maybe some can see that its more than just 'fabric softener'.

The OT bands around here never used the term 'bounce' that I can ever recall.

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Edited by - Banjophobic on 12/05/2010 09:23:05

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/05/2010:  09:44:12

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Getting involved with meanings of words when we are talking about music is very frustrating. Words don't really apply and are very likely to cause confusion. The jazz piano player's bounce is not the bluegrass bounce. The words confuse. It seems that soundfiles and pictures don't help much either, but they are better than words. However, you seems to be getting your point across better than I am.

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/05/2010:  09:51:08

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Well to be honest, Im not interested in convincing anyone of what term 'should' be used. Bg'ers have used the term to represent something they understand and can play. If it doesn't correspond to what classically trained folks understand or accept, it really doesnt matter that much as its just a discussion. Its now devolved in cultural stereotyping typing and Im not into that at all, so Im done. At least we have an example of someone outside of the Bg domain, using the term 'bounce'. Ive enjoyed the thread up until the southern slams. Thanks

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Edited by - Banjophobic on 12/05/2010 09:57:26

steve davis - Posted - 12/05/2010:  10:08:03

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Bounce,syncopation,shuffle,drive (among other words)are decriptions of how someone
decides to play what sounds right to them.
Different amounts/locations of emphasis and timing adjustments help differenciate
one player from another and give them their particular style.

There isn't one definable example of any of this stuff...it's a personal choice and
shows the player's musical taste.

Musical taste is playing what fits the band's sound.

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Edited by - steve davis on 12/05/2010 11:14:15

The KIDD - Posted - 12/05/2010:  10:25:47

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Yeah , and from listening to sound files, the ones trying the hardest to convince that "their" wording and written descriptions should trump out, are IMO least qualified to be a Banjo" forum talkin about it. You think Us SUTHEN boys bees ignorant of the nuances of bounce , swing , shuffle dotted 8's and 16's? How bout ya meet us in the chat room for some ";Banjo bounce" "Breakin it Down", "Double Banjo Blues" Pan Handle Rag", Turkey Knob, FMS,etc etc etc About 30 tunes in this vane oughta do it? Lets hear YOUR illustrations of the Shelton , Adcock,Reno, Scruggs, Stover, Emerson, etc nuiances?.. How bout it boys?.. Any "players" among ya?

Dave Magram - Posted - 12/05/2010:  20:18:10

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Hey, let’s all settle down out there!
No more sniping, please.
I’m on a quest to unravel the Mystery of Allen Shelton’s Bounce, and I need your help.

BTW, I don’t think that I have spent this much time TALKING about this rhythm stuff in my entire life as I have on this thread.
Normally, I just show people the rhythm I have in mind.
But this has been educational and interesting-- at least for me.

Let me try to summarize where I think we are.
There are several terms that are being thrown around here: “swing”, “shuffle”, “bounce”, “drive”.
We do not all agree on the definitions of these terms.
However, we all agree that Allen Shelton had "bounce".
So let's focus on Allen as our example.

Isn’t it logical that if we are debating rhythm terminology, we should ask musicians who are rhythm experts—drummers and bass-players?
That is what I did.
I had the chance to interview a very experienced and well-recorded jazz drummer last night about these terms, as well as a similarly experienced and recorded jazz bass player. (This is in addition to the drummer and bass player I interviewed last weekend.)
I was careful not to prompt them to give my opinions before getting their thoughts on the subject, and I talked to them individually to avoid “group-think”.

DEFINITIONS
Both drummers and both bass-players agree on these definitions:
1. “Shuffle rhythm”: With four beats to the measure, “shuffle” emphasizes the first and third beats (the downbeats); or if you are counting “1 & 2 &”, where 1 and 2 are the downbeats and the “&” is the offbeat, the emphasis is on the downbeat.
Both bass-players and both drummers that I interviewed agreed with this.

Here’s where some of the confusion on this thread may be coming from…
Wikipedia (see “swung note”) says:
“In shuffle rhythm, the first note in the pair is exactly twice the duration of the second note.”
I think some people on this thread have been interpreting “duration” to mean “unequal spacing”. I would suggest that “duration” means the first note in the pair has longer duration because it was struck harder than the second note.
In other words, it SOUNDS longer, because it was struck louder and the second note was struck softer.
But don’t take my word for it—when I asked the two jazz guys last night to demonstrate “shuffle” feel- THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID—the notes were equally spaced, but the first note was struck harder (“emphasized” or “accented”), and they CONFIRMED VERBALLY that the notes are equally spaced, but struck with different force. The drummer explained about using a stick in one hand and brush in the other to accomplish this, for example.
Makes sense, right?

2. “Swing rhythm”: With four beats to the measure, “swing” emphasizes the second and fourth beats (the off-beats); or if you are counting “1 & 2 &”, where 1 and 2 are the downbeats and the “&” is the offbeat, the emphasis is on the offbeat (the “&”), and the notes are equally spaced.
Both bass-players and both drummers that I interviewed agreed with this.

Wikipedia (see “swung note”) says:
“Swing eighth notes are generally played legato (slurred). Accenting the "and" between each beat slightly is also a common swing characteristic.”
That seems pretty clear to me that the Wikipedia article is in agreement with my view of “swing notes”
But don’t take my word for it—when I asked the two jazz guys last night to demonstrate “swing” feel- THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID—the notes were equally spaced, but the second note of each pair was struck harder (“emphasized” or “accented”).

I hope that most of you are in agreement so far, since “shuffle rhythm” and “swing rhythm” have widely-accepted, commonly-understood definitions (see Wikipedia “swung note” for audio-clip examples).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may not agree with the following at first, but just think about the concept that perception is not the same as reality, and keep an open mind.

3. “Bounce feel”: However when I asked the heavy-duty jazz guys last night (and also their guitar player), none of them was familiar with the term “bounce” in this context. They ALL said that “bounce” sounded like a “feel” rather than a specific rhythm pattern like “shuffle” and “swing rhythm”.

I then asked them “If a bandleader or recording producer asked you to add a “bounce” feel to your playing, what would you do?”
Without my prompting them--they ALL said “I would probably play a bit ahead of the beat” to give it a “bouncy feel”.
To confirm that we were talking about the same thing, I drew my little “beat clock” diagram (12:00 at the Top Dead Center of the downbeat, 6:00 at the Bottom Dead Center of the offbeat) they ALL pointed to the area of around 11:00 to 11:30 on the “beat clock” drawing and said “That is playing ahead of the beat”.

I then drew the beats as a sine-wave (showing the peaks as top dead center of the downbeat, and the troughs as the BDC of the offbeat), and put a mark on successive peaks (downbeats)—just a few degrees before the TDC of the downbeat—and they ALL agreed that “playing ahead of the beat REQUIRED the striking of the notes to be EQUALLY SPACED at the exact same point just before TDC of the downbeat.
(Both the drummer and the bass-player last night liked my “beat clock” and sine-wave diagrams, and thought that was a very useful way to visualize the beat cycle. To be honest, I got the “beat clock” idea from Sonny Osborne’s interview in the Masters book.)

4. “Drive”: I asked them about “drive”, and they said that was not a commonly heard term in jazz, but they would interpret it to mean someone who played with forceful and consistent timing to propel the band forward, and keep the beat from dragging. A more common jazz term for this is “groove”.

What this says to me is that these four terms: “swing”, “shuffle”, “bounce”, and “drive” are describing four very different things.

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What does this mean to bluegrass?

Earl once said something along the lines that he tried to play the banjo the way we speak (and mentioned Al Hirt as doing just that on the trumpet).
When we speak, we accent certain syllables of the words to give our speech rhythm and emphasis that often can alter the meaning of the words
.
A good example of English spoken without accented syllables would be computer-generated speech, such as Stephen Hawking’s device, or robot voices from the telephone company 411 computer. The computer is combining various phonemes and syllables without inflection—because it doesn’t know which syllable to emphasize.

When we add inflection (emphasis) to different syllables, it can change the meaning of the word entirely.
Generally, women are better than men at this. (With all due respect, ladies!)
When you tell your wife that you just spent $20,000 on an old Mastertone, and she says, “REAL-ly?” that means that she is not happy and you are in big trouble.
If she says “real-LY!”, that means that she is pleasantly surprised and you are safe for the moment.

Let’s use the “Chat-a-noo-ga” example that Rich and Richard have referred to, and Rich McKeon demonstrated on his website.

1. MONOTONE: First, try pronouncing “chat-a-noo-ga” like a robot would, without emphasizing any of the four syllables. It sounds very monotonic, doesn’t it?
Isn’t this the way most of us started out with Scruggs’ style, just trying to play four notes in a row evenly?
We couldn’t emphasize the melody if our life depended on it!
Which is why many beginners can’t hear the melody when they are learning to play Scruggs’ style.
The next step is to learn to play evenly, but accent the notes we want to emphasize—usually the melody notes.

2. “SHUFFLE”: Now try pronouncing it as “CHAT-a-NOO-ga”. This is “shuffle rhythm” with the accents on beats 1 and 3 (the downbeats). Beats 2 and 4 (the “a” and the “ga”) are the unaccented off-beats. (Or as some do, you could regard “CHAT” and “NOO” as the downbeats, and “a” and “ga” as the “&” or off-beats.)
This is the secret to playing Scruggs’ style rolls—learning to subtly accent certain notes to bring out the melody.

3. SWING”: Now try pronouncing it as “chat-A-noo-GA” (difficult to do, BTW).
This is “swing rhythm” with the accents on beats 2 and 4 (the & offbeats).
Beats 1 and 3 (“chat” and “noo” are the unaccented down-beats in swing rhythm.
Sing San Antonio Rose, and notice which beats are accented.
If you know how to dance Western Swing, you step sideways on the downbeat, and “snap” your partner’s arms on the offbeat.

Hopefully we all agree on this, since this is simply a repeat of the “shuffle” and “swing” definitions described under the “Definitions” section above.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So where does “bounce” come in?
If you agree with everything above, it become clear that “bounce” is a “feel” concept, totally separate from “shuffle” and “swing” rhythms.

And now we’ve not got two jazz drummers, two bass players, a jazz guitarist, Sonny Osborne, and “nobody special” me saying that to add bounce to your playing, you need to play slightly ahead of the downbeat—at consistently the same point before TDC, which means the notes are equally spaced.
And we’ve got recordings of Allen Shelton’s playing with bounce, that after 40 years of listening to Allen’s playing, sound to me as evenly spaced as the ignition spark in a Ferrari cruising down the highway.
However, Allen adjusts the “timing of the spark” on his Ferrari (banjo) just a few degrees Before Top Dead Center to give the band that extra punch or boost forward that we call the “Shelton bounce”.

I believe that if we had better audio tools that could measure, not just the duration of Allen’s notes, but the distance between the striking points of his notes, we would find confirmation of this.
And we would also find confirmation that the differences in duration are due to the difference in striking energy that Allen applies to the notes he wanted to accent.

Your honors, I rest my case.

- Dave

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Edited by - Dave Magram on 12/06/2010 13:32:52

The KIDD - Posted - 12/05/2010:  20:38:29

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Just calling a SPADE a SPADE like the ________ felt they were doing. Equal opportunity here.
Not the aggressor here, but I guess YOU HAVE to be the aggressor if "talk" is all ya got,

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/05/2010:  20:40:12

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Dave

Well, thats a very thought out response and you should get some great replies. Im taking my leave as Ive lost my desire to continue. You guys carry on and good luck in your quest.. This is Rich's thread and I dont want to let my participation throw a wet blanket on it anymore.
Besides, I aint got the heart for it anymore.

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Edited by - Banjophobic on 12/05/2010 20:45:23

Dave Magram - Posted - 12/05/2010:  20:54:04

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Rich,

Thanks for clarifying about Earl’s quote on “shuffle time”.

As several people have pointed out on this thread, standard music notation, tablature, and even written words are woefully inadequate to describe the more subtle aspects of rhythm and timing.
It all comes down to training one's ear to hear the subtleties.

Here’s an example:
Both of my sons became very good classical violinists (they were both in various youth and junior symphonies from about ages 9 to 16), mainly because we paid a symphony violinist to give them (expensive) weekly lessons.
I sat through many of these lessons over many years because they weren’t old enough to drive.

In classical music the two most important things are technique and interpretation. (Similar to bluegrass but without improvisation.)
They were playing from violin scores that often had copious notes by the composers on them, such as “andante” and “legato” etc.

I would say that their violin teacher spent perhaps 20% of each lesson on technique. The other 80% was spent on interpretation.
Why?
Because standard music notation and composers’ notes are inadequate to describe the subtleties of how to play the violin and sound like a professional.
My sons knew what “andante” meant and they knew what a dotted 1/16 notes meant, but they needed an experienced violinist who had listened intently to the greats—Heifitz, Horowitz, etc.-- play these pieces on the violin, and help them interpret what those little squiggles meant in the real world.

I consider "bounce" to be one of those very subtle musical actions that takes place in less than 1/10 of a second--well beyond the scope of standard notation.

FWIW, I’m pretty certain that Earl didn’t personally write that quote, because as far as I know, he doesn't read music—because he never needed to.

- Dave

schwimbo - Posted - 12/05/2010:  21:07:20

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Dave,

I'm glad you rest your case, because you haven't listened to (I should say "accepted") evidence presented contrary to your opinions. If you want to take the time to look at waveforms of Allen Shelton's playing (which I did), you will see that you are just not correct about the notes being spaced evenly (if "evenly" means that the numbered beats have the same duration as the & notes). If you can't hear this in Shelton's playing, I don't know how you can necessarily hear when a drummer taps it out for you and proclaims that he is playing evenly spaced notes. Maybe he was, and that sounds the same to you as what Allen played. If that is the case, than you just need to listen more carefully. Have the jazz players you mention ever heard Allen Shelton's playing? Let us know if you played some of his stuff for them before you asked your questions. You can ask all the jazz guys in the world to give their opinions about "bounce"but why should their credentials be any better about how bluegrass is played than actual bluegrass players. Sonny Osborne may have an opinion, and he is a great player, and perhaps Allen plays ahead of "the beat" in comparison to some other players (let's say older Bill Emerson recordings). However, even if he actually did play ahead of the rhythm put down by the bass and Jesse's chop (which I don't think he did - based on careful listening at slow speeds using Audacity - I just listened to it again and he is locked in perfectly with Jesse's chop on 2 and 4), that wouldn't not affect the fact that he does not space every note evenly using your definition and that of the "jazz guys". So, Allen (and many other players) do something that you don't seem to want to acknowledge the existence of.

I'm sure that you want your opinions to be correct, and that is true of everybody (including myself). But I think the difference is that you look for evidence to support your pre-existing theories without looking at any evidence that might contradict your beliefs. This is not really using the scientific method. It is just burying your head in the sand (the sand that is made up of your ideas and sand that is devoid of other ideas).

i presented some evidence about the results that Audacity showed, and it seemed that you were interested in the findings and said that you might need to re-examine some of your conclusions. Now here you are trying to support those conclusions by asking some "jazz experts" to verify your ideas without even hearing the evidence. If they heard Shelton's playing, I wouldn't agree with them anyway, because I have looked at visual evidence in addition to listening to the playing in question, and it supports what I have heard. It is all the evidence that I need, and probably most people here have come to the same conclusion about the spacing of the notes.

If you want to keep on thinking that there is another explanation for Shelton's bounce, go ahead, but you won't get me to sign on and say I agree with your "findings" (after your talks with the 'jazz guys"), and I don't know if you will convince other bluegrass players here that because a jazz player said something, that it is necessarily more true than something that a bluegrass player might have said. As far as Sonny Osborne's statement, ask him if Allen spaces his notes evenly and see what he says. Also listen to Allen's playing and slow it down and listen to see if he is in synch with Jesse's chop. If he is, then he isn't playing ahead of the beat (if Jesse has any weight in determining where the 2 and 4 are, which I think he does).

Sorry if I am disagreeing with you again, but I am a little confused as to how you try to come to conclusions about things that you have questions about, unless you really have no questions about the subject and don't want to hear anything that might make you have questions where you didn't before.

Rysher - Posted - 12/05/2010:  21:44:26

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Am I crazy Peter but your breakdown suggest something that resembles a half shuffle if you will? Your breakdown is impressive and I wonder how you measured it but it suggests a structure within a swing rhythm. Lately this idea that Scruggs style is based on a shuffle or half shuffle jives with your analysis. The shuffle in reality mixes swing and strait to employ a built in tension and release, that allow a shift between swing and strait rhythm to occur seamlessly.

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/05/2010:  22:11:27

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Since I already posted four audio examples, a jpg, and one video of bounce, here is a song with no bounce. The comparison might help you isolate the thing we are talking about. Remember, bounce is not in the size of the notes but in their spacing. Also when talking to the jazz people you should use their terminology which is 'jazz eighth notes'--they don't use the word 'bounce'.

schwimbo - Posted - 12/05/2010:  22:31:32

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Tim,

I'm not sure what you want to call the rhythm in Allen's playing, but the numbered notes are consistently of longer duration than the and notes. Whether you call it swing, shuffle, bouncy, or whatever, it combines notes played in pairs such that the second one is about 20% shorter in duration than the first one of the pair. This pattern stays consistent throughout the solo, and doesn't change within the measure. I used visual analysis to try to isolate the wave peaks that corresponded to the played notes. This was a little hard to see sometime, but with filtering, the peaks were a little easier to spot, though some places were easier to see the peaks than at others. There was some variation in the timing, but overall, the findings were what I mention above.

Dave Magram - Posted - 12/05/2010:  22:42:24

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Hi Pete,

Thanks for your reply, and I’m sorry if I wasn't clear.

You wrote:
“I'm sure that you want your opinions to be correct..”
Oddly enough, I don’t think I do. I’m simply seeking to understand better how Allen Shelton got “bounce” in his playing.
I’m not trying to prove you wrong and prove me right--I’m trying to approach this as a scientific inquiry, rather than a debate of opinions.
I have my hypothesis as to how Allen did this and I’m trying to weigh the evidence for and against my hypothesis--not me or my opinion. (Strange, but true.)
If my hypothesis is proved wrong by evidence, that’s fine—I’m just curious to learn how Allen did it—like any other magic trick.

You wrote:
“but I am a little confused as to how you try to come to conclusions about things that you have questions about, unless you really have no questions about the subject”
My questions are analytical rather than seeking instruction.
I’m just curious as to how Allen did it, since even he couldn’t explain it.

You wrote:
“If you want to keep on thinking that there is another explanation for Shelton's bounce, go ahead, but you won't get me to sign on and say I agree with your "findings".
We had a mis-communication, and you now disavow that your findings agree with my hypothesis—that’s okay.
Stuff happens. Nobody died.

Bottom line--I’m not trying to debate with you or anyone else, I’m just trying to figure out how Shelton did his magic bounce.

I hope that helps clear the air between us.
----------------------------------------------------------
Back to the scientific inquiry..
You wrote:
“(if "evenly" means that the numbered beats have the same duration as the & notes).”
I do not mean that at all, and I think this is where the confusion between us lies.

When I say “evenly spaced” notes, I am talking about the point of impact of each successive note being evenly spaced.
The “point of impact” is the millisecond when Allen’s fingerpick initially strikes the string, when the note begins to sound.
I am NOT talking about the duration of the notes--that obviously occurs AFTER the note begins to sound.
The point of initial impact and duration are two very different things—wouldn’t you agree?

It is my belief that the duration of the notes is the result of how much force was used to strike the string.
The harder you hit a banjo string, the longer it will ring—is that not correct?

I believe that in normal medium to fast tempo (>80 bpm) well-played Scruggs’ style banjo-playing, the interval between each successive initial impact is equally spaced, but the different amount of force used to accent certain notes causes a longer duration of those notes.
The longer duration may cause it to sound like the notes are not evenly spaced, but I believe that is an auditory illusion.
That longer duration caused by greater striking force is known as “accent”, “emphasis”, or whatever Earl called what he did to make the melody notes stand out.
Does that make sense?

You wrote:
“As far as Sonny Osborne's statement, ask him if Allen spaces his notes evenly and see what he says.”

I’ve always been a huge fan of Sonny Osborne. I got to see him and Bobby many times at festivals back East. He was always the most adventurous banjo-player at the festival!
I’ve had the privilege of talking with him on two occasions many years ago, and he is fascinating guy. He doesn’t thinks linearly like most people, but he is very analytical about music and banjo playing. It was Sonny's comments about the "round beat" that I adapted to my "beat clock" diagram.

I’d love to ask Sonny Osborne about what he meant by his comments about Allen Shelton's playing.
If he tells me I'm full of baloney, I will honestly report back to this forum what he said.
Can you send me Sonny's phone number or e-mail by IM?

- Dave

schwimbo - Posted - 12/06/2010:  00:36:25

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Hi Dave,

Thanks for the nice reply to my maybe slightly "frustrated" sounding response to one of your last posts. I'll try to be "nicer" in response to your posts. I would think that the point(s) of impact of Allen's fingerpicks on the strings correlate directly to when the sound is produced (though the sound comes out after a slight delay). If the sounds are not evenly spaced, then I think that the points of impact are not evenly spaced. The duration of the note would not be affected by how hard you played the note, because the duration of the note is effectively over when the next note sounds (even if it rings, it is in the background and not of concern in terms of determining the rhythm). I would suggest that you try playing along with Allen's recordings but instead of "pushing the beat", try to change the time in between the notes so that you have a longer note followed by a shorter note. In other words, if you were playing a TITMTITM roll pattern, delay your point of impact a little for the I and M notes, but play the 4 T notes right on the beat. I can play along with a recording of Allen's playing and it sounds like one banjo (if I make sure that we are playing the same notes), and to do that, I need to have a slight "swing" feel to the picking. If I try to play along with Walter Hensley doing some of his work with Earl Taylor, I need to space my notes more evenly (eliminate the swing feel). If your goal is to get Allen's timing down, you might try this instead of pushing the beat. Let me know if you do try it and how it works for you.

phb - Posted - 12/06/2010:  03:00:38

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Magram

Wikipedia (see “swung note”) says:
“In shuffle rhythm, the first note in the pair is exactly twice the duration of the second note.”
I think some people on this thread have been interpreting “duration” to mean “unequal spacing”. I would suggest that “duration” means the first note in the pair has longer duration because it was struck harder than the second note. [...] The drummer explained about using a stick in one hand and brush in the other to accomplish this, for example.
Makes sense, right?

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Not to me. How would using a stick and a brush produce a pair of notes where the first is exactly twice the duration of the second note?

I don't think that your interpretation of the wikipedia quote makes sense which doesn't mean that I have any opinion on the correctness of the quoted statement.

quote:

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When we add inflection (emphasis) to different syllables, it can change the meaning of the word entirely.
Generally, women are better than men at this. (With all due respect, ladies!)
When you tell your wife that you just spent $20,000 on an old Mastertone, and she says, “REAL-ly?” that means that she is not happy and you are in big trouble.
If she says “real-LY!”, that means that she is pleasantly surprised and you are safe for the moment.

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In my opinion "really" always has the emphasis on the first syllable, in your example it is the melody that changes. In the first example it will drop (approximately by one minor third) while in the second it will rise (by something like a fourth). But I'm not a native speaker.

Rich Weill - Posted - 12/06/2010:  07:51:29

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Magram

FWIW, I’m pretty certain that Earl didn’t personally write that quote, because as far as I know, he doesn't read music—because he never needed to.

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I agree with you on this. I'd like to think, however, that Earl confirmed that the notation in his book was correct, by having someone who did read music play this rhythm, exactly as written, for his approval. That's how Bill Keith worked with Earl on the tab arrangements in the original edition of Earl's book.

May I take the liberty of adding something to this discussion (which has drifted far afield from where this thread started) from my perspective as a more junior player who was taught to play with "bounce"? However much reasonable ears may differ on where "bounce" precisely comes from, it was essential to me, in learning how to add this to my playing, to conceptualize it as playing notes of uneven duration. Whether one uses the CHAT--taNoo--gaCHAT--taNoo--gaCHAT ... mnemoic (as I prefer to notate it, to emphasize the primary and secondary accents and the pauses) or TICK--aTock--aTICK--aTock--aTICK ... (a mnemonic I read on BHO which I like because you can say it faster, so it's easier to use when practicing at faster speeds) or anything else, I don't see how you learn "bounce" by thinking of the notes as spaced equally. In fact, Roger Sprung advises learners to "over-pair" -- to really emphasize the uneven spacing at first, to develop the habit.

You folks can debate forever what "bounce" truly is, if you like. But, for me, there is no debate how best to think about it in order to learn to play with it.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 12/06/2010:  11:10:27

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Is there ANY chance you guys are overthinking this stuff? For players that play and learn by ear (and there are many of us) - you listen to the recording and you try to sound like that.
I like Allen Munde's feel (who was a student of Allen Shelton I think) I don't know about 'bounce', I would just call it 'life' i.e. not mechanical.
Laurence

steve davis - Posted - 12/06/2010:  11:42:20

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I think Allen played what felt natural to him.
It was simply what he thoughht the banjo ought to sound like and what felt
comfortable in his hands.

If you don't spend too much time trying to sound like someone else
you may,very likely,find your own recognizable sound.

I've always had faith that if I just kept playing what I liked,I would someday
develop some kind of personal sound.
I've spent a lot more time wondering how I wanted something to sound rather than
wondering how someone else wanted it to sound.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 12/06/2010:  12:29:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I like Allen Munde's feel (who was a student of Allen Shelton I think)

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Alan Munde was a student of the late Oklahoma banjo player Eddie Shelton, not Allen Shelton, but he does indeed have a bouncy feel to his playing.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 12/06/2010:  13:59:32

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I like Allen Munde's feel (who was a student of Allen Shelton I think)

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Alan Munde was a student of the late Oklahoma banjo player Eddie Shelton, not Allen Shelton, but he does indeed have a bouncy feel to his playing.

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Thanks for the clarification. I think I have always got those 2 mixed up

Rysher - Posted - 12/06/2010:  21:44:42

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I am not sure "bounce " is the same as swing. A shuffle straitens out a swing much like Shelton there is bounce and a straitness as well, this is true of Scruggs. If you play just swing feel in Scruggs style it is not quite idiosyncratic. I believe that a shuffle feel better describes "bounce" than swing.

schwimbo - Posted - 12/06/2010:  23:25:53

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Tim,

I don't really care too much about what word best describes the kind of playing that has a longer note followed by shorter note (repeated over and over). However in the interest of prolonging this discussion, according to the sometimes incorrect Wikipedia, your above definition is the opposite of theirs. Here is where they say:

In shuffle rhythm, the first note in the pair is exactly twice the duration of the second note. In swing the division is inexact, and varies depending on factors such as how fast or slow the music is, on the genre of music, or the individual tastes of the performer, from almost equal (typically at fast tempos) to almost shuffle (typically at slow tempos).

Just thought I would do what I can to keep contributing to the longevity of the thread. :-)

Rysher - Posted - 12/10/2010:  22:22:44

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Peter, I am just trying to clarify and and define bounce and some of the other terms thrown around. I did not define a shuffle because and like swing there are variations and different definitions but thanks for that definition. There is something in Scruggs style that eludes to shuffle at times. Since bounce is undefined it seems that clarification or definition would be helpful. There are different definitions of shuffle but an evenness through a consistent swing variation seems to cover them. I am just trying to understand bounce myself, not imply that any one is wrong. Swing is not bounce. If you swing a Scruggs tune it sounds different than what Scruggs played. So, what is the difference between bounce and swing? This is an important distinction in defining bounce.

schwimbo - Posted - 12/10/2010:  22:31:45

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I think that bounce as applied to Allen Shelton's playing means the same thing as swing, in that his playing is characterized by using the regularly uneven note durations that swing phrasing uses (at least according to the Wikipedia definition). Scruggs didn't bounce as much as Allen Shelton on most of his tunes (though I don't think he played perfectly straight with all the notes spaced evenly as far as the numbered notes and the & notes are concerned), but he did bounce on Foggy Mtn Special in a similar way (using a swing feel).