Dave Magram - Posted - 11/30/2010:  14:31:00

---

Hi Richard & John (Banjophobic),

John wrote:
'But "bounce" has been a word used to describe the swing feel for a long time now and its become and accepted term."
Richard wrote:
"'Bounce' or 'jazz eighth notes' is a well understood term."

One might think so, but after 15 minutes on Google and Wikipedia searching for
"bounce jazz eighth notes rhythm timing"
in various combinations, I was unable to find any references to "bounce" in the musical context that we are discussing here.
On the other hand, I had previously found many references to "swing", "shuffle", "straight eights", and "syncopation".

Hence, my comment:
"As I have been saying all along, "swing", "shuffle", "straight eights", and "syncopation" are standard musical terms with widely-accepted definitions. "Bounce" is not."

I would be very interested if someone could point to a documented reference defining "bounce" in a musical context.
Perhaps my Web search skills are lacking.

- Dave

---

Edited by - Dave Magram on 11/30/2010 14:47:33

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/30/2010:  14:39:24

---

Dave, I have no intention of getting into a personal dispute with you. If the moderators want to intervene, it won't be because of anything I have said. My prior posts are self-explanatory. Most are based on other source material, which I indentify. I stand by what I have said.

Those who have read my posts for the past several years know that I profess no expertise on the banjo. I've learned quite a bit from one of the most experienced banjo players and teachers around. When I "want to learn something," I ask him. BHO, on the other hand, is a forum for gathering differing points of view. It is most interesting when there is lively, respectful debate.

The only comment of yours that I choose to address here is this:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave Magram

Jam sessions ... don’t count.

---

For many of us, they are the only thing that counts. Many of us -- perhaps even most of us -- aspire only to play the banjo with our friends for our collective enjoyment. We started as we approached middle age -- and have no more hope of becoming a professional banjo player than of becoming a professional golfer, poker player, gardener, or whatever else we do for fun.

This is all about "paying your dues"? I started a thread nearly two years ago which described my modest banjo goals: banjohangout.org/archive/142449 It was rather well received. So maybe you're right: I would rather play than "pay."

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/30/2010:  15:27:15

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave Magram

Hi Richard & John (Banjophobic),

John wrote:
'But "bounce" has been a word used to describe the swing feel for a long time now and its become and accepted term."
Richard wrote:
"'Bounce' or 'jazz eighth notes' is a well understood term."

One might think so, but after 15 minutes on Google and Wikipedia searching for
"bounce jazz eighth notes rhythm timing"
in various combinations, I was unable to find any references to "bounce" in the musical context that we are discussing here.
On the other hand, I had previously found many references to "swing", "shuffle", "straight eights", and "syncopation".



Hence, my comment:
"As I have been saying all along, "swing", "shuffle", "straight eights", and "syncopation" are standard musical terms with widely-accepted definitions. "Bounce" is not."

I would be very interested if someone could point to a documented reference defining "bounce" in a musical context.
Perhaps my Web search skills are lacking.

- Dave

---

David

Im talking the bluegrass realm here, with these terms, like "bounce". Bounce has become an accepted term for what is called 'swingy', in the other music realms. We also have a term called 'drive' that I doubt has much meaning outside of the bluegrass world. Theres other terms that we banter about, but that may not line up with 'accepted' terminology. I agreed that it adds to the confusion. That was my point in the previous post. In regard to Wikipedia, I find it not the greatest souce of information that I deem entirely accurate, at all times. Not trying to cast stones at your use of it, but there are sources of info much more reliable.

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/30/2010:  15:42:30

---

Dave,

You have a legitimate complaint in that I don't have any definition at hand. I have seen it described in Banjo Newsletter several times; it comes up every generation. I think bounce is a common term in jazz and even bluegrass, as John says. Bounce just is (in a scruggs forum). Below is an illustration of a half measure:

I found a Banjo Newletter reference:

257 - March 1995

BOB CARLIN. Minstrel Banjo (Tony Trischka tab); Fiddle Tune (Over The Waterfall), The
Bounce Part 1 (BC); More Single String; O'Banjo; Rare Earl; Basic Syncopation (MC); Endings

---

Edited by - Richard Dress on 11/30/2010 17:35:29

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 11/30/2010:  16:28:49

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave Magram


Music is about listening, not reading.
When I want to learn more about Earl’s playing, I listen to it over and over and try to figure out how to emulate it the best I can.
That is what people do if they really want to learn how to play the banjo.
It’s called “paying your dues”.

Thanks,
-Dave

---

Dave,
This is a thank you to you for the above statement. My post really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. However I read your quote and the same day read Pat Cloud in this month's (Dec. 2010) BNL saying."I recommend students listen to a song at speed at east 100 times before they even look at a piece of tab." For a novice in the banjo these two statement give me some pretty good insight of how to do some productive work and how to learn and develop feel. Thanks!
Ken

Dave Magram - Posted - 11/30/2010:  17:40:33

---

Hi Ken,

You are welcome.
That is very sage advice from Pat Cloud.

If you're starting out, I'd suggest that instead of learning from tab, get some instruction from someone who doesn't use it.
I believe that there are some well-known instructors that do not use tab, such as Murphy Henry, and my old friend Tony Trischka.

For those who want to wean themselves from tab, I'd suggest finding just one lick you like on a recording of your favorite banjo-player, and trying to learn just that one lick by ear.
It may take an hour or more, and you may not get it perfectly, but you'll learn so much more from hunting around on your banjo-neck to find those 6 or 8 notes than you'll learn from tab in a million hours.
Then find another one, and as Earl Scruggs would say "Repeat x 1000"

Good picking,
Dave

Dave Magram - Posted - 11/30/2010:  18:02:17

---

Rich,

You wrote:
“Dave, I have no intention of getting into a personal dispute with you.”
As far as I am concerned, anyone who accuses me of something I did not do is starting a personal dispute with me.

You wrote:
“It is most interesting when there is lively, respectful debate.”
Yes it is—however it is not at all respectful to impugn someone else’s integrity.
You sir, have behaved disrespectfully by doing just that.

When my kids were growing up, I taught them to treat other people respectfully and as they would like to be treated, and if they made a mistake that affected someone else, that the adult thing to do is to sincerely apologize.

There seem to a number of people who believe that those simple rules of etiquette and civil discourse don’t apply to the Web.
Are you one of them?

-Dave

Dave Magram - Posted - 11/30/2010:  18:54:14

---

Hi Richard & John,

First, I have read your bios, and listened to John’s audio-clips—which are very impressive-- so please believe me when I say I must very respectfully disagree with your comments about the term “bounce”.

Richard, thanks for the diagram from the BNL. Unfortunately, I don’t subscribe, so I cannot look up the issue you mentioned.
When I clicked on the diagram, it simply enlarged the picture of the four notes. I studied the diagram for a bit—sorry, but it doesn’t mean anything to me. I can guess at what it means, but that is the core problem with the word, isn’t it?

John, you are correct, ”bounce” seems to be a commonly used term on the BHO, but my point is that everyone seems to define it in their “own peculiar way” (to quote an old Ernest Tubb song).
There doesn’t seem to be a “widely-accepted” common definition—as can be seen by the many responses to this one thread.
As the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland said, “I can make a word mean whatever I want it to mean!”

I could not find any musical references to it on Google (except as a form of L.A. hip-hop!).
An experienced drummer I asked had never heard the term.
I don’t recall any country band I’ve played in use the term, although they all used terms like swing, shuffle, accent, syncopation, etc.

In bluegrass I only heard the term associated with Allen Shelton as the “Shelton bounce”.
So to me, Allen's playing defines the word "bounce".
I'm pretty sure I know how Allen got that bounce--by playing slightly ahead of the downbeat.

And being as stubborn as the next banjo-player, that’s my story on “bounce”, and I’m sticking to it—until someone can show me a documented definition/explanation of “bounce” by some music theorist, Earl Scruggs, Gene Krupa, Wynton Marsalis, or some other musical genius.

Interesting topic, though.
I just wish you could all agree with me on what the darn word means.

-Dave

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/30/2010:  19:14:18

---

Dave, I have endured post after condescending post from you on this thread. Go back and read some of the insulting things you've written about me. And you're outraged because I looked up a quote you used from Masters of the 5-String Banjo and concluded it was used out of context (for reasons I explained in detail in an earlier post)? Did I say you did so deliberately? No. Did I impugn your integrity? No. I'm sure you believed that the speaker was talking about one thing; I believe that, in context, the speaker was talking about something else. I don't deserve to get a lecture on morals because my reading differs from yours.

I've been posting on BHO for 6 1/2 years. You've been doing so for less than a month. I've had honest disagreements before -- some recently -- but nothing like this. Perhaps you should get to know someone better before you start judging his character.

---

Edited by - Rich Weill on 11/30/2010 19:19:57

Jody Hughes - Posted - 11/30/2010:  20:27:22

---

Anyways, about the topic:
WHY would someone choose to play straight 8ths over swung 8ths? After all, I think that IS the question.

Perhaps, I am wrong here, but I think more modern bluegrass musicians tend to play straighter 8ths than the older musicians.
I hear a lot of players who emphasize playing DEAD on the beat, they practice with a metronome and make sure they can get right in the middle of the beat. At least this is the way I've heard a great deal of the younger bluegrass crowd playing.

I made this comment on another thread and I will say it again. I think recording and producing techniques have had a SERIOUS impact on this music. People go into the studio, track everything, line it all up perfectly with a click track. That is the sound a lot of younger bluegrassers hear, like, and emulate.
I don't think there is anything wrong with playing DEAD on the beat, as a lot of music calls for that. When I play Nine Pound Hammer, Wild Bill Jones, etc I tend to play straight. At the same time, I prefer if people have an understanding of various rhythmic feels.

Here is my answer Rich-if you only play one way all the time, it starts to all sound the same. In addition, different music requires different timings, so why not learn how to do it both ways?

Another example in music where straight eights are preferred:
When I studied Bossa Nova music, I was told, "Stop swinging the notes." You HAVE to play straighter, or it doesn't sound right. Jazz musicians often sound bad playing bossa nova because of this. Different types of music call for different nuances and timing.

As far as bounce goes. I think "bounce" is a term that means different things to different people. To me, I find it used most often when people want to describe someones playing who plays ahead of the beat with accents. To others, it is going to mean different things. It's like arguing who has the best tone, or what is the best banjo, you aren't going to get a whole lot of agreement.

---

Edited by - Jody Hughes on 11/30/2010 20:33:24

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/30/2010:  21:04:15

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave Magram

richard & John,

First, I have read your bios, and listened to John’s audio-clips—which are very impressive-- so please believe me when I say I must very respectfully disagree with your comments about the term “bounce”.

-Dave

---

Dave

Hey, thats fine with me. I know what 'bounce' means in terms of bluegrass playing and it really doesnt matter to me what others prefer to call it. Ive found that many folks in the BG world have their own mindset about terminology and Ive given up trying to change it. As long as folks can play with 'bounce', what does it really matter what you or I or Rich think it 'should be' called?
Ive never heard the term 'drive' used an the rock, blues, country or jazz groups Ive played with. Its a BG term and experienced Bgassers know what it means. But Im not going to stop using the word "drive", just because the other genres dont know what we mean. We dont have to always agree on forums, as long as we're civil about it. Im not really sure why your taking Rich's posts as a personal assault on your character though. You two may be disagreeing but theres been no attempt at character assination that Ive seen. Maybe you two have been going at it in emails. But it could be handled better off site. Im not throwing rocks, just trying to diffuse it if I can.

---

Edited by - Banjophobic on 11/30/2010 21:09:43

Dave Magram - Posted - 12/01/2010:  00:00:15

---

Thanks John,

I agree with just about everything you've said above.

One question about Allen Shelton:
Do you think that Allen Shelton's playing on bluegrass material like "I Wish You Knew", etc. has "bounce", as so many others (Osborne, Reno, Wernick, etc.) have said?

Best,
Dave

The KIDD - Posted - 12/01/2010:  00:17:55

---

Yeah, its hard to take a word and put in a box and make it mean the same thing to everyone..When I worked the studios' extensively in the 80's, had to drum many definitions of shuffle and swing and since I was a banjo player then, I had the term bounce in my vanacular. Since I was a studio player , the customer was always right so THEIR bounce was MY shuffle, MY Swing was THEIR shuffle. Milli seconds will matter betweenr the HH and R gtr top end of the beat and if aint right , it aint right. Doesnt matter at that point who's WORDS are gonna win out.
If we were all out at a fest, Im sure banjos would be present depicting what each of us determined the word to mean. Arguing over a word that ya cant feel or put into emotion will just end up a no win situation just as these posts always do.
Players understand players best when banjo's are present depicting these type "words"..My best bounce, in the way I define it on here ,can be found in Panhandle Rag , where fast groupings for trips bounce as well as my 8ths and even staggered 1/4s .
If I wanna understand a man regarding these subjects ,I listen to him play.
KIDD

---

Edited by - The KIDD on 12/01/2010 00:21:05

Rich Weill - Posted - 12/01/2010:  06:11:07

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjocoltrane

I hear a lot of players who emphasize playing DEAD on the beat, they practice with a metronome and make sure they can get right in the middle of the beat. At least this is the way I've heard a great deal of the younger bluegrass crowd playing.

I made this comment on another thread and I will say it again. I think recording and producing techniques have had a SERIOUS impact on this music. People go into the studio, track everything, line it all up perfectly with a click track. That is the sound a lot of younger bluegrassers hear, like, and emulate.

---

Very interesting. I was attributing this trend to the modern prevalence of tab, and how tab is notated, together with the current level of reliance on the metronome. But this insight into the ways of the recording industry is a great point.

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/01/2010:  08:20:38

---

Its interesting to note also, not every instrument in a group 'bounces'/swings all the time, in unison. It can make it really hard to feel or detect swing in solos. Its usually a combination of some instruments not swinging, combined with some that do, that allows the listener to latch on to the 'bouncy' groove.
You need to know what straight 8th's are, in order to understand how to 'swing' them. In the studio, its often that engineers use a click track, not to make the music 'dead' or to squash 'bounce, but its simply there to keep the musicians in time,haha. Ive been a very active studio musician and I can play with bounce/swing and I can play 'straight'. But I like having that click to 'bounce' of off...as a reference point. Ive also tried to play on sessions where the other players, like a group who needed a banjoist, refused to use a click track because it "killed the groove" they had. They wanted to "push the beat" and they did think they could do that with a click running. It made for one looong day for me and the engineer, since they couldnt stay in time,haha. Ask any recording person here about trying to record and punch folks who refuse to use clicks..
How can folks assume that you can play with bounce/swing if you cannot play in time, playing 'straight'?

---

Edited by - Banjophobic on 12/01/2010 08:53:15

steve davis - Posted - 12/01/2010:  08:42:29

---

You can't learn bounce or swing time from advice or notation,imo.
It's just something that you feel sounds right.
You need to play with people that have a "feel" for this rhythm to "get it".

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 12/01/2010:  08:45:43

---

I too like to use a click - mostly to keep me from rushing. But I think people are taking the click too literally if they ar trying to sync up with it on every beat. I am usually happy if I come back to it every 4 beats or so. Sorry if I'm digressing.
Laurence

steve davis - Posted - 12/01/2010:  08:55:14

---

Clicks are good for dialing in a perfect 3 minutes or other desired durations.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 12/01/2010:  09:14:47

---

I don't think a click track is necessary all the time. Many years ago, people used to not use a click. In addition, every single jazz musician I know, when they record, they do it live without a click. I've had in depth discussions about it with them after listening to their albums. Each instrument has it's own track and they MAY go back and touch up some things, but for the most part it is done live. That is part of the spirit of the music. Of course if you do this, you better have your act together.

I also think tracking every single thing and not doing any of it live can many times kill the groove. Not always, I've been involved in some projects where it worked, but have been in others where you could tell the music was pieced together on a computer.

Also, I had an epiphany about Shelton this morning that I should add:
Many times Shelton would accent the first string. He was slightly heavy with his MIDDLE FINGER...especially on the first string.
If you were playing an alternating thumb roll, this would put accents on the and of 2, and the and of 4.
If you were playing an "inside roll" this would lead to 2, and of 3, 1, and of 2, etc...if you notice this is a more irregular pattern than simply accenting with your thumb. I think this is a HUGE part of why his music bounces. You are not just playing with the beat, but accenting a variety of beats.

---

Edited by - Jody Hughes on 12/01/2010 10:00:32

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/01/2010:  09:46:51

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjocoltrane

I don't think a click track is necessary all the time. Many years ago, people used to not use a click. In addition, every single jazz musician I know, when they record, they do it live without a click. I've had in depth discussions about it with them after listening to their albums. Each instrument has it's own track and they MAY go back and touch up some things, but for the most part it is done live. That is part of the spirit of the music. Of course if you do this, you better have your act together.

I also think tracking every single thing and not doing any of it live can many times kill the groove. Not always, I've been involved in some projects where it worked, but have been in others where you could tell the music was pieced together on a computer.

Also, I had an epiphany about Shelton this morning that I should add:
Many times Shelton would accent the first string. He was slightly heavy with his INDEX FINGER...especially on the first string.
If you were playing an alternating thumb roll, this would put accents on the and of 2, and the and of 4.
If you were playing an "inside roll" this would lead to 2, and of 3, 1, and of 2, etc...if you notice this is a more irregular pattern than simply accenting with your thumb. I think this is a HUGE part of why his music bounces. You are not just playing with the beat, but accenting a variety of beats.

---

If the players are ready to record and have the ability to play together without a click, then yeah dont use it if the groove is better of you want that live sound. But many times bands cant get through sessions without some mistakes that are bad enough to punch. Having them on a click makes punching them MUCH easier. recordings where it sounds pieced together is probably because it was,haha. There could have been a ton of punching and pieced together sections that were fixed.

---

Edited by - Banjophobic on 12/01/2010 09:52:39

Dave Magram - Posted - 12/01/2010:  12:09:40

---

This is becoming a very interesting discussion!

The Kidd wrote:
“When I worked the studios' extensively in the 80's, had to drum many definitions of shuffle and swing…Since I was a studio player , the customer was always right so THEIR bounce was MY shuffle, MY Swing was THEIR shuffle. Milli seconds will matter betweenr the HH and R gtr top end of the beat and if aint right , it aint right. Doesnt matter at that point who's WORDS are gonna win out.”

Wow, John—that’s some heavy street cred! I don’t think I’ve ever met a drummer who played banjo before! How cool is that!
What’s great about that is that drummers have a language all their own to describe rhythms; I can only speak “Pidgin Drummer” about the basics, like shuffle and swing. (Although I used to know what “paradiddle” meant.)
And I totally agree—the customer is always right, whether in the studio, or the bandleader in a club.
------------------------------------------
Banjophobic wrote:
“Its interesting to note also, not every instrument in a group 'bounces'/swings all the time, in unison.”

John, I agree that is a MAJOR element of the band sound.
I’ve always believed that the very best bands, like F&S, Monroe, Bob Wills, Count Basie, etc. counter-balance each other around a “rhythmic center”. Some band members may be playing at the top dead center of the downbeat, some may be playing slightly ahead of it, some even may be slightly behind it.
I believe that this “rhythm push-pull” around the metronomic downbeat creates a dynamic tension that defines the band’s rhythmic “center”.
This is pretty subtle stuff--as The Kidd mentions, “Milli-seconds will matter”.
Bill Monroe was able to define his band’s rhythmic center with just his mandolin—no matter who playing with him, it always sounded like Monroe's band.
------------------------------------------
This concept aligns perfectly with Banjophoic’s comment: “But I like having that click to 'bounce' of off...as a reference point.”--because that’s all a click-track or metronome is—a reference point for the “rhythmic center”.

I agree with what Banjocoltrane wrote: “I don't think a click track is necessary all the time.”.
Just two caveats:
1) If the band already has a solid rhythm “center” as described above, no click-track is needed—F&S didn’t need no stinkin’ metronome.
2) If it’s a recording situation and there might be some overdubbing, a click-track is a very good idea.
I was once asked to overdub an intro to a recording without a click-track, which I found to be quite impossible. So I got the engineer to manually add a short click track four clicks back from where I was supposed to play.
------------------------------------------
Steve Davis wrote:
“You can't learn bounce or swing time from advice or notation,imo. It's just something that you feel sounds right. You need to play with people that have a "feel" for this rhythm to "get it".”

Steve, I agree completely with you and the point that Laurence Diel made.
I’ve always advised students to play along with recordings or Music Minus One tracks instead of a metronome to get a feel for the “whole rhythm”, not just the metronomic downbeat.
As I've mentioned before, I "played" with the Foggy Mountain Boys hundreds of times--they just never knew about it.

Cool stuff.

Thanks,
- Dave

---

Edited by - Dave Magram on 12/01/2010 12:48:20

minstrelmike - Posted - 12/01/2010:  12:23:17

---

Bands have rhythms just like individuals do.

In Masters of the 5-String, Butch Robins said Bill Monroe didn't want him jamming with anybody else at festivals before a recording session and Bill caught him one day just by the way he was playing in the band.

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/01/2010:  12:44:33

---

The Orange Line Special worked hard to begin and end the song at the same tempo. That was our ideal. Lots of practice with a drum machine. We thought this was just good musicianship.

Maybe our band practice discipline was actually a poor decision from a stylistic point of view. Classic bluegrass was usually faster at the end of a tune than at the beginning. (Maybe that's not true for slow songs, I don't know.) Anyway this might account for a let-down feeling when listening to some of the modern bluegrass bands. The frozen tempo click-track probably takes some of the life out of their music.

The cure for this, the best engineering advice, as I understand it now, is to add a couple of beats to the click track when recording a traditional bluegrass band, like maybe a click every verse.

Tuneager - Posted - 12/01/2010:  13:40:57

---

blugraz - Posted - 12/01/2010:  13:47:02

---

I asked them whats in it?..... "Fun....Craic.....and plenty of....BOUNCE "

youtube.com/watch?v=3OydPiUV5a0

youtube.com/watch?v=4WvhPtiarW4

---

Edited by - blugraz on 12/01/2010 13:57:05

Rysher - Posted - 12/02/2010:  21:28:10

---

Bounce is a fabric softener and a term used by banjo players. It is not a term you will find in use by most musicians. If you like the term and have strong feelings use the word but a suggestion would be to translate that word to swing if speaking with non banjo players because "bounce" is probably not in their vocabulary. Drive is banjo slang for straight eights and does not have use outside of the bluegrass banjo realm either as Pat mentioned.

---

Edited by - Rysher on 12/03/2010 20:51:45

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 12/02/2010:  22:01:08

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rich Weill

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoeDownes

Here's an example of beautiful slow playing without swing/shuffle feel: youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9T8kar4jM

---

Thanks, Joe. I'm not familiar with the piece Ira is playing. Perhaps he will respond and tell us why he played it as he did. It may have to do with the mood Ira wanted to create. As I said, playing "even eights" seems take out a lot of the banjo's "happy instrument" sound.

---

First of all, thanks for the free publicity and the kind words, JoeDownes. It's a tune I composed, entitled "Leaving Takoma". The idea of playing a slow or medium tune with straight eighths is something I got years ago from Tony Furtado. All older country music (including bluegrass)--heck, all older popular music of any kind--uses swing eighths at slower tempos. Straight eighths don't become common until the rise of rock and roll in the mid-1950s. (There are a few exceptions, like some boogie-woogie piano pieces.) You can hear/feel the tension between the two approaches in Chuck Berry's 1958 recording of "Johnny B. Goode", for example.

So it occurred to me at some point that if you play country or bluegrass at slow tempos but with straight eighths, the tune will somehow have a "modern" feel. Try taking a song like "Your Cheating Heart" and playing it twice at the same tempo, first with swing eighths and then with straight eighths, and you'll see what I mean.

For this tune, my choice of straight eighths was indeed based on "the mood [I] wanted to create", but it wasn't a conscious thing--just one of the musical tools at my disposal.

---

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 12/02/2010 22:25:16

Dave Magram - Posted - 12/03/2010:  00:02:02

---

Hey Tim (Rysher),

You wrote:
"Bounce is a fabric softener."
LOL--Thanks for defining the term in a way we can all agree upon.

I noticed in your bio that you went to the Berklee School of Music, so I suspect you may know the answer to your question:
"Are swing and shuffle the same thing? If not, is shuffle something beyond swing, more defined?"

I had never heard these terms playing bluegrass, but when I began playing in country bands with a drummer, these terms provide a clear way to communicate the rhythm pattern you want.
For country shuffle, think of the drum rhythm for Crazy Arrms, and for swing think of San Antonio Rose--or look up "swung note" in Wikipedia and they not only describe these terms in words, they have short audio-clips.

-Dave

JoeDownes - Posted - 12/03/2010:  04:08:15

---

I've learned that shuffle describes a specific swing, where the long note is exactly twice as long as the short note (66/33). It's a triplet rhythm. xox|xox|xox|xox|... x is a beat, o is a pause.
Swing on the other hand can vary the lenght of the two notes, e.g. 60/40 for a slight swing or 75/25 for an extreme swing. So shuffle is a swing rhythm, while not all swing rhythms are shuffle.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 12/03/2010:  04:29:38

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave Magram


For country shuffle, think of the drum rhythm for Crazy Arrms, and for swing think of San Antonio Rose--or look up "swung note" in Wikipedia and they not only describe these terms in words, they have short audio-clips.

-Dave

---

Here is the Wikipedia site Dave mentioned: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swung_note.
Hearing the examples on the site puts a lot of the words from this thread in perspective for a novice like me and also shows the energy that you would feel when someone plays banjo with these examples.
Again, thanks Dave,
Ken

schwimbo - Posted - 12/03/2010:  04:43:32

---

I've read some of the posts, and there are some players who can use straight time to great effect (Ron Block is one, though he can bounce or swing, whatever you want to call it, if he chooses to). Walter Hensley recorded with a very straight time feel on some recording he did with Earl Taylor in the 1960s. Eddie Adcock's playing on older recordings with the Country Gentlemen had a very straight time feel to them. Of course, there is Ralph Stanley, as another who plays without much bounce. I disagree with Dave Magram (sorry Dave, we'll just have to agree to disagree) about Allen Shelton playing ahead of the beat. I think Allen did emphasize the 1st string (as Jody Hughes pointed out), and he also had a fair amount of a swing feel (or bounce), but I don't hear him playing ahead of the beat at all. His timing with respect to the beat sounds perfectly dead on to me. Dave, in your example of Liza Jane, it sounds like you are playing a bit on the front side of the beat (which requires the band to not follow your lead or the tempo will speed up). I know this probably was a deliberate choice on your part, but I don't hear Allen Shelton doing that in any recordings I've heard of him, and I've heard his playing for almost 45 years.

Tim13 - Posted - 12/03/2010:  06:19:24

---

I read every post in this thread. Every single post, and I had the urge to scoop my eyes out with a spoon only three times. Not bad....hahahahaha.

A couple of observations:

1.) I thought I knew what "bounce" was before reading a six page thread about it. Now, I have no idea what "bounce" is.

2.) I'm starting to think the term "bounce" is not one single conscious act on the banjo pickers part, but many subtle acts that add up to bounce; altering time signature of 1/8th notes, accenting notes, etc... .

When it came time for me to learn Foggy Mountain Breakdown, I had an interesting experience. After getting the tune memorized, and playable, I made a quick and dirty recording of it one night. I put it on my flash drive to dissect it in my car during my morning commute to work. I started alternating between Earl and myself, and was shocked at how sterile and mechanical my playing sounded. Later that day, I slowed Earl down so I could play along with him, and found that we both started at the same place as far as the beat went, and we both ended up at the same place with respect to the beat. The eye opener for me was that Earl and I both took a different road to get there. I made a straight beeline, and Earl kind of meandered. Is this bounce? Who knows. All I do know is Earls version, from a rhythm/beat standpoint, sounded better.

When I learn a new Scruggs style song, I now recognize the same above process taking place. Initially, it sounds like just a bunch of notes strung together, with a subtle melody. Once I learn it well enough to start altering the time signature of the notes a little, suddenly, the tune comes alive, and sounds like bluegrass.

Tim

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/03/2010:  07:21:02

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rysher

Bounce is a fabric softener. Are swing and shuffle the same thing? If not, is shuffle something beyond swing, more defined?

---

Yes Bounce is 'fabric softener'. But its also a term BG banjo players have used to describe 'swing' feeling in someones playing. Isnt it you who wanted us to create a 'banjo theory' a few weeks back, in the theory forum, which is predicated on banjoists using terminology outside the mainstream? Terms like 'bounce' and 'drive' have meaning to player in this genre. Maybe they dont match proper normal theoretic jargon, but then neither does 'lope', gallop' 'bumditty' or other rhythmic terms used in oldtime music. But players who use the terms and who can play it, know exactly what it means. Ive used the term "pushing the beat" and most BG players know what it means, but I dont think its an accepted term in classic jargon.

---

Edited by - Banjophobic on 12/03/2010 07:46:01

minstrelmike - Posted - 12/03/2010:  07:23:41

---

I always knew 'bumditty' wasn't a real musical term.

That's why I always refer to it as 'boom-shukka.' ;-)

Banjophobic - Posted - 12/03/2010:  07:43:56

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by minstrelmike

I always knew 'bumditty' wasn't a real musical term.

That's why I always refer to it as 'boom-shukka.' ;-)

---

Mike
Im glad you used the proper name "boom-shukka"..now youre 'legal',haha.

Old Hickory - Posted - 12/03/2010:  08:14:49

---

I agree with Schwimbo in disagreeing with anyone who says bounce has anything to do with playing ahead of (or behind) the beat. To my ear, bouncy players like Allen Shelton and Alan Munde -- and Schwimbo, Peter Schwimmer, himself -- are solidly on the beat. I believe that what we hear as bounce comes from their occasional and well-timed emphasis of the off beats or in-between beats. Excuse me for not knowing the correct musical term.

What I mean is: if most bluegrass banjo music can be counted as 8-beat measures -- 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & -- bouncy players are often emphasizing the "&" beats. To the extent that you emphasize & after 4 (before 1), then maybe that's what people are hearing when they think the bouncy player is playing ahead of the beat. But they're not playing ahead of any beat. They're playing solidly on the & beats between the numbered beats and giving those notes different emphasis. I think I hear some of that in Ira's "Leaving Takoma" linked to above. I also hear it in Schwimbo's "Cherokee Shuffle" available in music archive here.

Ken

---

Edited by - Old Hickory on 12/05/2010 14:14:07

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/03/2010:  08:28:35

---

John, that is a 5-star response to a difficult and tangled thread. Theory doesn't have much practical value solving our communication problems.

For most of my banjo life there was no 'bounce'. Never heard of it. Then I heard about the word and figured it had something to do with rhythm and timing. Finally, it clicked. I understood what it meant in terms of banjo technique: I could play with bounce. At that point I could talk to bluegrass musicians about bounce and understand their answers.

The mental image of an egg rolling downhill is more helpful than the label 'bounce'. I think if it was presented to me as the egg thing, I could have understood what it was all about before I even picked up a banjo.

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/03/2010:  08:48:25

---

Not to criticize any particular person or exempt myself, but as a general observation: talk is cheap.

We are all banjo pickers, right? We can all play the old TITM roll on our banjos, I guess.

Find out the secret of bounce for yourself. Grab your banjo and play the roll, play it to the image of the egg rolling downhill.

It's no big deal. Anybody can slap out a bounce rhythm on a garbage can. Just try it. Words can be very confusing, but garbage cans never lie.

Dave Magram - Posted - 12/03/2010:  17:27:11

---

Hi Pete (Schwimbo)

Nice to hear from you.

You wrote:
“I disagree with Dave Magram (sorry Dave, we'll just have to agree to disagree) about Allen Shelton playing ahead of the beat. I think Allen did emphasize the 1st string (as Jody Hughes pointed out), and he also had a fair amount of a swing feel (or bounce), but I don't hear him playing ahead of the beat at all.”

Hey, Pete—thanks for chiming in, and I have no problem with people disagreeing with me—that’s how we all learn new points of view.

At least we agree that Allen Shelton did play with “bounce”!
It’s not surprising that there is disagreement as to how Allen got that “bounce”—even Allen said he didn’t know how he got it!

I’ve noticed that I don’t seem to be getting much support for my theory of How Allen Got His Bounce from you or the other musical heavy-weights here.
So I’m starting to think that perhaps my theory (Allen played ahead of the beat) may be incorrect (Gasp!).

I must admit when I have been able to play in a pale imitation of Shelton’s bounce, that it is something that I cannot consciously think about—it’s sort of an unconscious will—if that makes any sense.

So your theory (and Jody’s) that Allen is simply emphasizing the first string makes sense, and would be easier to replicate than trying to mystically channel Allen.
Emphasizing the first string would accentuate the off-beat 8th note, “swinging” it slightly—which seems to be what Banjophobic, and others have been saying.
I suppose the only way to analyze it would be study the waveforms of Allen’s playing on audio editing software, but that sounds like too much work to me—I’d rather pick.

You wrote:
“Dave, in your example of Liza Jane, it sounds like you are playing a bit on the front side of the beat (which requires the band to not follow your lead or the tempo will speed up).”

Thanks for listening to my clip.
Your comment is interesting, because I was not consciously playing ahead of the beat—I was just trying to “drive” the groove hard.
Could it be that “drive” comes from playing ahead of the beat?
(As you can see, I have a hard time completely giving up my theory)

Tim13 wrote:
“I thought I knew what "bounce" was before reading a six page thread about it. Now, I have no idea what "bounce" is.”
LOL, your comment reminds me of one of my favorite stage jokes, the punch-line of which is “Well ma’am, all my life I thought I was a cowboy, until about 20 minutes ago, when…”

I think most of us agree that whatever “bounce” is, Allen Shelton had it—so there’s one “gold standard”.

Very educational.

Richard, what is this "egg rolling downhill" concept you refer to?
I can't say that I've ever heard of it.

- Dave

Jody Hughes - Posted - 12/03/2010:  18:24:00

---

Hello again Dave,

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I think it's hard to put these things into words. There can be confusion about what playing ahead of the beat means.

I hear the accents in Allen's playing but I also hear the same technique I've studied in jazz which I will attempt to explain below:

Suppose you have one measure of G followed by one measure of C
| G | C |

In this case, you are playing a G chord on beat one of the first measure. You are then playing a C chord on the and of 4 in measure one....even though the C measure doesn't technically start until a half beat later. This is a New Orleans rhythm that is found all throughout jazz. I just got done studying "Joy Spring" by Clifford Brown and it's all over that song. In Allen's case he isn't playing entire chords like this but notes.

I think when some people say he is playing ahead of the beat, they mean he is playing on the ands and swinging them into the next downbeat.
Now as to the other allegation, whether or not he is indeed playing right on the beat or ahead of it, I am not prepared to say. If I had the time I could make a wave file and determine this. I have seen people do this with piano players and it's an interesting study to read about. How certain players push and pull with the rhythm. All that matters to me is I can hear it and emulate it, regardless of technical terms. It's the playing that matters.

---

Edited by - Jody Hughes on 12/03/2010 18:25:49

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/03/2010:  18:30:46

---

Dave, if you can imagine a repeating rhythm pattern like a wheel rolling along bum-a-dit-y bum-a-dit-y, then visualize an egg rolling along making the rhythm: chat-a-NOO-ga chat-a-NOO-ga. If you play a square roll TITM as you exercise your imagination this way, it's possible that your playing will reflect the 'bounce'. It doesn't work for everyone, but it is a shortcut for many pickers.

PS: here is a one measure visualization of bounce

---

Edited by - Richard Dress on 12/03/2010 18:38:01

Bounce - one measure

Rysher - Posted - 12/03/2010:  21:39:42

---

The term ain't is also well established and in the dictionary but use of that word might suggest certain income or education levels. And yes banjo theory would largely be a translation of banjo terminology to terms that that most musicians could understand like swing and straight instead bounce and drive. The first step in debating is to clarify terms and that's what I am trying to do. If you like the terms bounce and drive then use them. Many people fought to get ain't in the dictionary and use that word every day.

---

Edited by - Rysher on 12/03/2010 22:06:17

Dave Magram - Posted - 12/03/2010:  21:47:05

---

Richard,

Thanks for your explanation about the egg rolling, and I found a Rick McKeon videoclip explaining the “Chatanooga” concept.
I never used those rhythm metaphors when I used to teach—I just would work with the student until he or she got “that sound” down cold. That basic bluegrass timing is pretty clear when actually playing the banjo—another reason why I used “talking tapes” instead of tab.

These basic metaphors are all fine for a beginner, but what I am asking about here is much more complex and subtle than these very simple explanations.

The main reason that it is difficult to analyze “bounce” is the milliseconds involved, as The Kidd pointed out earlier in the thread.
The space between the eight eighth-notes in a Scruggs roll at 120 bpm is 1/8 of a second. That is quicker than the average eye-blink (3/4 of a second)!
There’s no time to think about eggs or Chatanooga.

Here’s the question as I see it:
1. What is “bounce”?
a.. Example of “bounce”: Many people, including Osborne, Reno, Wernick, Trischka and countless banjo-players that I have known personally, talk about Allen Shelton’s “bounce”.
2. How did Allen actually physically achieve his “bounce”?
(a.) at evenly-spaced intervals starting slightly ahead of the downbeat (“three-quarters around the beat”, as Sonny Osborne described it.)
(b.) at evenly-spaced intervals starting in the center of the downbeat with a strong accent on the offbeat (as several BHO members believe)

Here is an example: Don't Say Goodbye If You Love Me - Jim & Jesse (with Allen Shelton): youtube.com/watch?v=maCoz8Ldi2w

You wrote:
”PS: here is a one measure visualization of bounce”
The illustration you attached seems to show “bounce” as being achieved by NOT evenly spacing the notes.
Are you suggesting that “bounce” is achieved by changing the actual spacing of the notes from even to uneven?
If that is what you are saying, you will have a very difficult time convincing me that anyone can do that in a standard Scruggs roll, other than choking the string at slow tempos, like Oceans of Diamonds.

I visualize timing as either a "beat clock" or a sine-wave, where:
0 degrees = Top or center of downbeat (12:00 on the beat-clock)
1 to 90 degrees = playing after or “behind” the downbeat
180 degrees = center of off-beat (6:00 on the beat-clock)
270 to 359 degrees = playing ahead of or “in front of” the downbeat

Kind of wacky, but more nuanced than rolling eggs.

- Dave

---

Edited by - Dave Magram on 12/03/2010 23:19:46

Rysher - Posted - 12/03/2010:  22:29:55

---

Thanks for the clip of Shelton and I reviewed it many times and have to admit that Shelton is illusive. It is some where in between swing and strait which makes what he is doing sound an awful lot like a shuffle.

---

Edited by - Rysher on 12/03/2010 22:30:51

Rysher - Posted - 12/03/2010:  22:58:02

---

quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill

quote:
Originally posted by JoeDownes

Here's an example of beautiful slow playing without swing/shuffle feel: youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9T8kar4jM
Thanks, Joe. I'm not familiar with the piece Ira is playing. Perhaps he will respond and tell us why he played it as he did. It may have to do with the mood Ira wanted to create. As I said, playing "even eights" seems take out a lot of the banjo's "happy instrument" sound.



Nice tune and well played.

schwimbo - Posted - 12/04/2010:  00:37:44

---

I downloaded the Allen Shelton clip Don't Say Goodbye If You Love Me - Jim & Jesse (with Allen Shelton): youtube.com/watch?v=maCoz8Ldi2w into Audacity and it shows that Allen is letting the numbered beats last a little longer than the &s that are played between the numbered beats. The average measure lasts about 0.97 seconds and has 8 notes played (1&2&3&4&). This averages .12125 seconds per note, or .2425 seconds per beat. However, Allen divides the time up so that for instance, the numbered beat might last around .13 or .14 sec, but the "&" lasts around .11 or .10 seconds. There is a little variation, but this is in general what I think contributes to the feel that Allen gets.

Dave Magram - Posted - 12/04/2010:  01:17:22

---

Peter,

Wow--you are the man!
Now we've got science at work to discover the secret of Allen Shelton's famous bounce!
This is like finding the Loch Ness monster or a real UFO!

You wrote:
“…it shows that Allen is letting the numbered beats last a little longer than the &s that are played between the numbered beats.”

I gather from this statement that you are saying that Allen is striking the notes at even intervals, but the notes on the numbered downbeats rang out longer than the notes on the “&”—is that correct?

You wrote:
“However, Allen divides the time up so that for instance, the numbered beat might last around .13 or .14 sec, but the "&" lasts around .11 or .10 seconds. There is a little variation, but this is in general what I think contributes to the feel that Allen gets.”
And I understand from this statement that the notes on the numbered downbeats consistently lasted about 0.03 second longer than the notes on the “&”—correct?

This would seem to imply that he was striking the notes on the downbeats harder than on the “&”—would you agree?
If that is so, he was emphasizing the downbeat, rather than the offbeat, meaning that he was playing “straight time”, rather than “swing time”, would that be your conclusion?

Very interesting!

Here’s the million-dollar question:
Can you tell, perhaps from the string-bass notes, if Allen appears to be striking the banjo note slightly before the downbeat (as defined by the bass)?
(In other words, is my theory of Allen playing ahead of the beat still viable?)

Ooh, this is so exciting!
Are you going to publish your findings in the Journal of Banjo Science?

Thanks a bunch for doing this!

- Dave

schwimbo - Posted - 12/04/2010:  01:53:51

---

Hi Dave,

You are correct in both your statements / questions:

I gather from this statement that you are saying that Allen is striking the notes at even intervals, but the notes on the numbered downbeats rang out longer than the notes on the “&”—is that correct?

And I understand from this statement that the notes on the numbered downbeats consistently lasted about 0.03 second longer than the notes on the “&”—correct?



Allen doesn't always play numbered notes louder than & notes, but because he emphasizes the melody notes by playing them harder, and most of them fall on the numbered beats, then the numbered notes do tend to generally be louder than the & notes. I don't think of swing time as having the & notes being louder. Perhaps a polka band might emphasize the & notes (short duration but punchy), but this doesn't seem like swing to me. I have to say I'm in the camp who thinks of swing as the long note followed by a short note, which has been discussed / debated previously at length in this thread. I also think that soloists can deliberately place their notes behind the rhythm section (especially in a jazz context) to produce a "lazy" feel while also "swinging".

As far as your final question:

Here’s the million-dollar question:
Can you tell, perhaps from the string-bass notes, if Allen appears to be striking the banjo note slightly before the downbeat (as defined by the bass)?
(In other words, is my theory of Allen playing ahead of the beat still viable?)


I have to say that based on listening to the clip on Audacity (at normal speed and slowed way down) and looking at the waveforms, it sounds like the banjo is in perfect time with the bass and mandolin, and band in general, meaning that he is not playing slightly ahead of the beat as played by other band members. If you want to compare straight time to bounce, compare Jesse's mandolin breaks to Allen's banjo breaks. Jesse plays very straight time on the mandolin, no bounce there. It still fits with the band because Allen stops playing his bouncy roll while Jesse is soloing in straight time, and just chops chords on the banjo.

Richard Dress - Posted - 12/04/2010:  06:50:44

---

"You wrote: ”PS: here is a one measure visualization of bounce”
The illustration you attached seems to show “bounce” as being achieved by NOT evenly spacing the notes.
Are you suggesting that “bounce” is achieved by changing the actual spacing of the notes from even to uneven?" --Dave
-------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, Dave, that is the whole story on bounce. Simple, right? Instead of equal spacing you have long, short, long, short, ... all the way to the end of the song.

Bounce has nothing to do with the actual notes, just the space in between. So accent, dotted notes, swing, messing with the beat and all that stuff has nothing to do with bounce.