Rich Weill - Posted - 03/11/2009:  02:56:35

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Wes Lassiter started a thread recently exploring what it takes to become a professional, or at least advanced, banjo player. Reading through the responses, it was apparent that many of us will never achieve what these players have achieved. We started later in life. We no longer can devote the time required. We have other interests and obligations. We aspire to something more realistic.

Speaking for myself, I aspire to fit in comfortably at a jam session comprised mainly of competent amateurs, be it a local jam, at a bluegrass festival, or at one of the folk events we attend regularly. I'm not looking to perform on stage, just play comfortably with others, mostly friends. So my question is a bit different. Perhaps it is more clearly asked from the other direction -- not "what do I need" but "what can I discard."

How can I simplify the skills I need in order to make this goal most achievable?

Can I jettison:
Melodic and single-string
D tuning (with all its new chord forms)
Minor and modal tunings
Chords beyond major, minor, and 7th [Even 6th, diminished and augmented chords, which I know, I rarely ever use.]
Jazz-like improvisation

Lately, I have been placing a premium on hearing and recognizing chord progressions, playing backup without a capo, playing modest melody-oriented Scruggs-style arrangements by ear in G and C, and learning a few reliable licks.

What else belongs on the "may discard" list? What else belongs in the "must practice" column?

I don't view this as "settling for less." I view this as practicing the "art of the possible."

BigMikeUSMC - Posted - 03/11/2009:  03:14:52

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Hello Rich,

Great post! Your position statement fits many, I daresay, most assuredly me. I just started a few months ago (albeit having played musical instruments for many years) and I know I will never be up on a stage - in fact, have no aspirations to that.

I would like to play competently as you so well describe, and, having limited time to devote to practice/learning, would love to know what I should be concentrating on and what I can skip.

Hope you get a lot of input on this.

All the best,
Mike

"Better is the enemy of good enough"

Slick Salmon - Posted - 03/11/2009:  04:25:32

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If your goal is to play at jams, then you can safely discard everything on your list. All you need is to recognize the tunes, hit the changes and play basic backup. That's it. It also helps if you can sing, but if you're holding a banjo, it's not required.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 03/11/2009:  05:47:53

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If you're wanting to play in jams, how about things you NEED to know in order to be a good jammer?

1. Hear chord changes and understand chord progressions. This can be learned by going to jams and watching, listening and doing backup. If you can't hear chord changes, learn a few guitar chords and watch the rhythm guitar picker and when he or she changes chords, you do, too. Eventually, you'll begin to "feel" the chord change coming up and then you'll "know" when it's coming and what it's going to be.
2. Be able to pick out a fairly simple melody by ear -- you don't have to do a lot of single string or melodic, just basic Scruggs type rolls, a few slides, hammers, pulls to make the song sound like bluegrass.
3. Understand backup and be able to not only do vamps, but basic rolls and a few licks at the end of musical phrases or the end of the song.
4. Understand when playing backup that that's what you're doing: Backing up whoever is doing a break -- and play SOFTLY and QUIETLY in the background. Too many banjo pickers pick so loud they drown out whoever is taking a break.

I'm sure there are other things, but this is what comes to me early this morning.


Let''s Pick!
Texas Banjo

John Allison - Posted - 03/11/2009:  05:59:39

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I have refrained from getting into this post because I do play in a band and do get paid (on occassion) which by some stretch of the imagination does make me a professional (at least by definition). In addition, I teach basic banjo in the adult education program where I live. However, I am a firm believer in the KISS principal (Keep It Simple Stupid). For jams, most people will use an open G tuning and most people will tell you what key they are playing in: thus, all you need is to know is when the chord changes occur, what chord is being played and, finally, the chord progression for that song. Capos also, do wonders in limiting the chords that you need to know.Sherry Chapman (TexasBanjo) has an excellent capo chart, perhaps she will jump in here and post it. Now once you know the chord progression, you can move up the neck and work various roll patterns and you will be surprised at how much this will resemble the song you are playing. So, in review, basic chords, chord progression, up the neck work keeping the basic chord sequence will put you in good shape for any jam because, now, you will not only be able to play backup but lead as well. One thing I like to do before I play any song, in front of an audience, is to run it past my wife. If she can pick out the tune out of my rendition of the song, then I know its right, it is simple and recognizable. And, like Pete Wernick stresses, if it sounds good it is right. One last comment ....... I have never thought of professional as meaning you make money at playing, I firmly believe that professional is a state of mind where you strive to be the best that you can be with what tools are at your disposal.

Froggie
"Courage is Fear that has said its prayers.

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Edited by - John Allison on 03/11/2009 09:27:05

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/11/2009:  06:42:34

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You can drop everything on the list. To me, the most important thing to drop is other tunings if you want to jam.

Chord Patterns
Learn the neck with the left-hand. Know the 1-4-5 relationships by shape (F,D,barre in open G-tuning) and memorize the chromatic scale and you can play any basic song in any key. To start, learn patterns in G and D. These are easily moved up to A and E. I wouldn't abandon odd chords, but I would certainly not be practicing making chords independent of songs. (I always recommend strumming thru any songbook you can get your hands on).

Find the relative minor positions of the chords and know what that means. In your chord progression practice, use the relative minors, then add the 2 chord where it usually belongs, and then work on the ragtime chord progressions G E A D G (Salty Dog) and C E A D G C (Five Foot Two) in a few keys. Do the same with the modal progressions used in I Know You Rider, Red-Haired Boy and Salt Creek.

Chord Shapes
From each basic major chord shape, learn the 3 or 4 possible 7th shapes that are related to it. Then look at 6ths. They're right next to the new note you added. If you carry a chord chart for other odd chords, then you can look them up, although if you strum thru a hymnal or a Christmas book (or jazz), you will probably end up using some of them occasionally. You can learn the theory of chord construction to start learning theory if you are so inclined.

The knowledge builds on itself so I would say try strumming thru books of regular folk, pop, and children's songs just to get used to playing different chords and also to get used to simply learning the chords to a song quickly. You can practice that skill at home by going thru books quickly. (You'll also find songs you want to get better at). To start, just do the songs you've heard of and that way you don't have to worry about learning to read rhythm or anything. Just strum and change chords in time.

Picking Patterns
The righthand needs to be solid in rhythm. Find good rolls or frail patterns and practice pulling melody out of the roll. I've met many book/dvd-learned pickers who have a real specific ideas that _these_ are backup rolls and _these_ are lead rolls. A roll is just a roll. Many of those guys sounded great on their backup so I'd tell them to take a lead. They'd say no and I'd say play exactly what you've been doing a lot louder. It works. Break the songs you currently know down to pure single-note melody and then try to build up a few leads using the rolls you are most comfortable with. If you do that on a 3 songs, it will get easier. Do it on 10 and you'll have begun building all the right-hand improvisational skills you need for jamming.

Practice dropping back into backup after a hot lead.

Learn a few songs you can bring to the jam. Ones where you start it, nod the leads around, and end it. That's another skill but is only one you can practice at jams, except for the part about actually playing some kind of kewl lead on your banjo. For general skills, just learn basic melody and play some rolls around them, but at the same time, work thru some fancy licks just to keep broadening your picking horizons.

I've found if I get people jamming quickly, the advanced stuff comes much faster. Once you can stay in time thru a few different chord progressions, you're ready to play, and once you start playing with other people without having too many preconceived ideas or worries about putting this finger there for that particular piece of a song, then jamming and improvisation begins.

Mike Moxcey
Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net

Pjotor - Posted - 03/11/2009:  06:43:13

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I agree wholeheartedly with Texasbanjo on all four items, and add one of my own:

5. No matter if you only play four licks or four hundred, make sure you can play them in cleanly and in time with the music.

Joe Larson - Posted - 03/11/2009:  07:09:35

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Interesting post Rich. I have to say it was a very rude awakening when I realized I would never become the greatest banjo player in the world for the 4 reasons you described. Plus 1 more, no talent. hee hee.

I had already jettisoned the idea of playing in a lot of different tunings - who the heck has the time? It's all I can do to learn the one I'm trying to master.
Extended chord forms - Please, it's only got 5 strings, you've only got 5 fingers, why are you trying to play 6 and 7 note chords?

But I'll continue to try and improve by working on SS and more jazz like improvisations.

j

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user...&view=videos
I''d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 03/11/2009:  07:11:08

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Yes, I agree with the above #5 - and wish I had thought of it first (G)

As far as capoing, here's a simple capo chart:

Playing out of open G tuning:
A - Capo 2 - capo 5th fret 2
Bb - capo 3 - capo 5th fret 3
B - capo 4 - capo 5th fret 4
C - capo 5 - capo 5th fret 5

Playing out of open G tuning using D chords: D, G, A
E - capo 2, capo 5th 2
F - capo 3 - capo 5th 3 (no sharps and flats between E and F)

Playing out of open G using C chords: C, F, G
D - capo 2, capo 5th 2
E - capo 4 - capo 5th 4
F - capo 4 - capo 5th 5

That should take care of just about any capo position you'll ever need. Hope that helps those who get confused on capoing -- I know I used to be confused and it took me a while to figure it out but when the lightbulb finally went off -- it was sooo very easy after that.






Let''s Pick!
Texas Banjo

Glenn Tate - Posted - 03/11/2009:  07:53:06

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When someone told Chet Atkins while he was being interviewed, that he was the best guitar player they had heard, he replied, "I have only scratched the surface of what I need to learn about the guitar."

I don't think any of the above skills should be discarded, only prioritized. Do the above as mentioned, in order to be able to play in a jam as quickly as possible, but never, never quit trying to learn beyond the point where you are currently playing. As has been mentioned before, this is a life-long quest, not to just try to reach a certain plateau, and then quit learning. There is no such thing as being static. You are either advancing or declining.

I'm sure any of the top professional banjo pickers here on BHO will tell you that they have not arrived yet.




"Opportunities are never lost. Someone will pick up the ones you miss!"

Glenn

harold saxton - Posted - 03/11/2009:  08:07:46

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Well there you have it folks. Nothing to it. You all make it sound so easy anyone can do it. But, believe me, it's not as simple as you are making it out to be.

d4dooley - Posted - 03/11/2009:  08:37:42

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Not sure if anyone mentioned this... but I believe it is a great idea to learn what some guitar chords are as well. It helps a lot when you can look up and see a guitar player playing a certain chord and you know what that chord is on the banjo. I have seen some bass players that don't know what a G chord looks like on a guitar... therefore you have to tell them... hey.. it's a G, then C, then D. For some reason it frustrates me.... maybe I'm just impatient... or maybe I've just been playing guitar for 15+ years and figure everyone should know this stuff.... Anyway... I still think it is a great tool to have in your pocket.... even if it has nothing to do with actually playing the banjo.

Dooley
Denver, CO

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 03/11/2009:  09:01:30

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In jam sessions, one must always listen and keep attentive to your volume. I find myself much more tentative in a jam session than on stage and try to implement new stuff I feel confident enough to finally try. If there is someone relieving you of the vamping and rolls, I find myself quietly noodling and preparing myself for my brief moment in the sun. I learned a lot from my thread as well for I am trying at an older age to get better. I do not believe for one second that with good health , good sleep and nutrician that one can be a GREAT banjo player if you set out to do it. In the 16 months of redoing my playing things are starting to happen. Please never be satisfied for the fact is that you never are anyway. Be happy that you are always trying to get just a little better. It means so for your life and directly and indirectly it rubs off on others

Banjo Wes
All things excellent are difficult as they are rare.

Spinoza

Banjocoltrane - Posted - 03/11/2009:  09:25:13

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If one looks at the more famous bluegrass banjo players, they dont always have loads of "technique", but play what they know very well and SOUND extremely good with a band......these are some of the following skills you can get by with:

1)Good Timing and Drive-As I stated on another thread, play along with recordings or use a metronome If your timing is really bad.
2) Know WHEN to play-Get in a group, preferably with musicians better than you....they will hopefully be a positive force in helping you learn this skill. Once again listening to the great banjo players will help as well.
3)IMO, you can do without melodics and single-string stuff If you don't WANT to learn it (GASP)
4)Learn all your Major/Minor/dominant 7th chords over the ENTIRE course of the instrument (Sometimes I wonder if some of the better banjo players even know this though). Be able to HEAR these chord changes.
5)Lean a bunch of songs...."What can't you learn from a good song" is a good quote...if you spend time working on tunes they will teach you a whole lot. Plus, you want to be able to attend jams and know the material.

In summary, you could just sit around and transcribe solos, learn tunes, go to jams, join a band, etc and never worry about Melodics/Single-string, Altered Tunings, scales, triplets, etc.

To be perfectly honest, I played 80% or more purely Scruggsy type banjo behind vocals on all the bigger gigs I was hired to do. I don't ever remember having to use another tuning either, perhaps drop C tuning a few times?

Not everyone has to be a Bela Fleck or Scott Vestal. There are a LOT of banjo players playing professional with bands that have capitalized on their strengths and not worried about a lot of the stuff mentioned on your list. Nothing wrong with that, just figure out what you want and pick your battles well.

Online Banjo, Guitar, Mandolin, and Music Theory Lessons available:
http://www.jodyhughesmusic.com

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Edited by - Banjocoltrane on 03/11/2009 09:40:14

mbaranski - Posted - 03/11/2009:  10:10:06

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"Well there you have it folks. Nothing to it. You all make it sound so easy anyone can do it. But, believe me, it's not as simple as you are making it out to be."

There is something to it. It's simple, but not easy.

What you get out ability wise is directly proportional to what you put in.

steve davis - Posted - 03/11/2009:  10:11:16

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What I learned first was how to play with others.My dad taught me to hear chord changes.
There was nobody around here that knew anything about bluegrass banjo picking so I learned how to accompany other instruments with chords and a flat pick.I later taught myself how to run the finger picks,but
by then I knew how to hear the chords and it was easy to play with others on tunes I hadn't heard before.

I think hearing chord progressions and seeing that all keys work the same should be the first lessons learned and playing in a Scruggs,Reno or Fleck way should be introduced later.

PortClyde

darryl k. - Posted - 03/11/2009:  10:31:41

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Far better to be a solid good player than a lousy " expert". Stick with the basics...solid timing and hitting no wrong notes. Practice with a metronome...it's more fun than you'd think. It shifts the timing clock outside of your head, and teaches listening while playing.
Banjocoultrane is right about playing in a band with people who are better than you. It's the best, easiest, fastest and most fun way to improve.
Don't discount playing on stage. The above holds true doubly then. It's a lot of fun.
IMHO
darryl


You only need two tools in life - WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn''t move and should, use WD-40. If it shouldn''t move and does, use duct tape. If neither works, try beer.

J.D. Miner Trio www.jdminer.com

steve davis - Posted - 03/11/2009:  10:42:19

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I think people sometimes go about things in the wrong order.It can be a little discouraging to try
and learn songs before you understand keys.

PortClyde

tombro - Posted - 03/11/2009:  10:44:50

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If you can play the "Foggy Mountain Banjo" album in a recognizable style and in decent time, you have all you need, IMO. I'm still perfecting it, some 26 years after picking up the banjo.

Don''t get tangled up in your underwear!

KidfromDeliverance - Posted - 03/11/2009:  11:43:57

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I like the suggestion of the original post - have realistic expectations, and don't worry about learning everything. There's plenty of advice on important skills to obtain - even a discussion thread about simplifying has it's share. It can be daunting, for sure, and I think it's important to take stock and focus on those skills that are needed for you to have fun.

One thing I'm trying to learn attending a monthly beginner-type jam is to get the simplest arrangement I can find for the songs we agree to have ready the next time - for one, it'll be easier to have it learned on time, and two, I'm more likely to actually play a break that's not so fancy (not there yet, it's still too scary - which is all the more reason to keep it simple!).

Kemo Sabe - Posted - 03/11/2009:  11:55:03

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quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

I think people sometimes go about things in the wrong order.It can be a little discouraging to try
and learn songs before you understand keys.

PortClyde

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I agree with that statement - I would add that understanding chords and chord progressions has been important to me in getting an understanding of songs. The structure of the song means a lot to me and my understanding of what is happening. It is kind of like if I was going to put a jigsaw puzzle together - I would love to see the picture of what I am piecing together rather than just putting little pieces together that seem to fit and then one day saying: "Hey, I think this is going to be a big old beautiful mountain scene! " I could play about a half dozen songs and still did not know anything about keys, chords, triads, chord progressions... I think a lot of this could have been improved if someone had shown me and encouraged me to just strum the songs and learn the chords and a little bit about keys. But mainly chords and chord progressions.

I can tell you that before I learn to pick songs now I go through and through the chords ... strumming the banjo... to learn the chord structure and timimg (of chord changes) .... before I start adding rolls and looking for melody notes to accent.

It seems to me that there is a whole lot of things going on for a beginning / intermediate banjo player to learn and coordinate.....it all gets simpler as knowledge and skills are developed. It has been fun for me and satisfying to learn about music.

Phil

"Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play." (Murphy Henry)

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Edited by - Kemo Sabe on 03/11/2009 12:17:17

steve davis - Posted - 03/11/2009:  11:57:51

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Sit in with someone that doesn't mind telling you the chord changes.After a while you'll hear them for yourself and won't need anyone to tell you.
It makes playing with strangers a lot easier.

PortClyde

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Edited by - steve davis on 03/11/2009 12:14:45

steve davis - Posted - 03/11/2009:  12:17:25

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It's good practice to name the chords as you listen to a song,without having your banjo in your hands.

PortClyde

Kemo Sabe - Posted - 03/11/2009:  12:23:56

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quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

It's good practice to name the chords as you listen to a song,without having your banjo in your hands.

PortClyde

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Steve,

I find myself naming chords quite a bit as you mentioned... last night I went to a dulcimer jam (my wife plays dulcimer) ... I do not take my banjo to that jam. I found myself silently calling the chords out to their songs... I do that with the I IV V, etc.....type of numbers. I know they are in the key of D at least 99% of the time but I prefer to know the Nashville type of number for the chords and changes...

Phil

"Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play." (Murphy Henry)

steve davis - Posted - 03/11/2009:  12:29:55

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I like to name chords as if the key were G.Then just transposing,if necessary,when I play.

PortClyde

Kemo Sabe - Posted - 03/11/2009:  12:34:11

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Rich,

You have a great thread on this thing. Some might say that my goals in playing banjo are not very lofty.... I basically want to enjoy the music and be part of it ... contribute to a jam rather than just be part of the outer circle. As Pete Wernick says "Bring more than just a fork to the pot luck dinner". There has been many a jam where I was only in the outer circle.... and many a jam where I just brought a 'fork to the pot luck dinner'. It has been fun getting past that feeling to some extent.

Thanks for the thread.

Phil

"Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play." (Murphy Henry)

Kemo Sabe - Posted - 03/11/2009:  12:37:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

I like to name chords as if the key were G.Then just transposing,if necessary,when I play.

PortClyde

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Steve,

I understand that concept but I guess I am too simple minded... it confuses me. If I know the 'Nashville" number I can transpose it to any key but if I call it in the G Key as you mentioned I get lost ... I know that sounds kind of goofy.

Phil

"Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play." (Murphy Henry)

steve davis - Posted - 03/11/2009:  12:55:44

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I wouldn't recommend my way to anyone...it's just how I see it.
This seems very simple to me.

PortClyde

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Edited by - steve davis on 03/11/2009 13:59:09

Brian T - Posted - 03/11/2009:  14:12:40

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I like Rich's philosophy: learn stuff as you need it. I volunteered to try to learn to play the banjo. I'm using Finale Notepad to transcribe and transpose standard notation from any key into G. I can transpose again or sneak a peek at the capo chart. The cheapest thing to do is to read the guitar player's left hand.

We do not know where we are going.
Nor do most of us care.
For us, it is enough that we are on our way.
Le Matelot

rstieg - Posted - 03/11/2009:  16:19:04

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Rich, I understand what you're saying completely. In fact, that's almost exactly what I've done over the past 6+ years, meaning that I never took the time to learn those things you listed that you want to "throw out". I play essentially only Scruggs style, almost no melodic or single string, I use only G-tuning and drop-C tuning (for just a few songs), I really only know and play major and minor chords, not even many 7th chords, and I don't do "Jazz-like improvisation", though I'm not too sure what you mean by that.

Instead, I've focused almost entirely on playing in jams and with other people. I know a lot of songs, I can kick off and play breaks for nearly everything we play in our regular jams and I'm constantly learning new songs, often my own arrangements. I play fairly basic back-up, consisting of vamping, rolls, "in the mood" and a bit more, but everyone seems to think it sounds good and complements the music well. I can improvise out of G and occasionally out of C (I'm working on that) for relatively simple songs. As a result I enjoy playing a LOT and easily fit into every jam I go to, including some that include what I would call "semi-pro" players. I'm certainly not a great player and never will be, but I play fairly cleanly, in time, emphasize the melody, and frankly I think I'm pretty well respected in our group. Many of my jam mates have become good friends. I also organized and lead a slow jam.

So it sounds to me that some of you are saying that you aspire to be able to do what I'm doing now, which certainly makes me feel pretty good about everything. Actually, it's also really what I aspired to from the start, though there are still several things I want to get much better at, such as improvising better out of both C and G and up the neck and expanding my backup and 3/4 time skills somewhat. I never wanted to become a professional and certainly never will. However, I can tell you that I do play in two informal bands, which really is just an extension of jamming. We don't practice regularly, but I do get to play on stage an average of at least once a month. That's actually what I enjoy the most.

So I hope this helps some of you guys. I don't think I'm really any more talented than most people, but maybe more persistent than most. I can also tell you that I've mostly learned on my own after a few lessons from Bill Evans in my first year, and I've always played or practiced nearly every day, averaging an hour or so per day. So the practice really does pay off and I've never been sorry for all the time I've put into it. Quite the reverse, actually.

RICH
Pleasanton, CA

The truth is a moving target... perception is more important than reality... everything is relative...

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Edited by - rstieg on 03/11/2009 16:21:33

rstieg - Posted - 03/11/2009:  16:34:53

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I should also add that I just started singing at jams a few months ago, after a few false starts, and I've been pleasantly surprised that it's gone as well as it has. I even sang one song on stage during a recent gig. I have about 6 songs I sing now and I'm slowly adding to that. I'd encourage everyone to give singing a try. I'm finding that it really adds a lot to the fun of a jam and broadens the overall experience.

RICH
Pleasanton, CA

The truth is a moving target... perception is more important than reality... everything is relative...

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Edited by - rstieg on 03/11/2009 16:35:39

Rich Weill - Posted - 03/11/2009:  18:50:01

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Thanks for all the great responses. It's nice to know that I'm not alone when I react to some of the more advanced banjo techniques with, "Thanks, but no thanks." My hat is off to anyone who can tackle these skills, but I have my hands full just keeping my head above water.

Thanks again.

Banjophobic - Posted - 03/11/2009:  20:34:05

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Rich

This is a helpful thread. A much higher percentage of folks who learn the banjo have 'realistic' goals about it. They realize that becouse of time constraints with work, kids,life and how much they really want to practice, their banjo skills will be within the 'norm'. As its been stated in that other thread and many more like it, to achieve some levels of copetancy requires tremedous time,sacrific and dedication.
But you know this is the saame in anything we strive for in life. I would love to have become a great basketball player, played for the Tarheels, won a couple national championships, been named player of the year and then go on to be on a Wheaties box or go to the NBA for 10 years and make 100 million. Guess what, I didnt have the dedication to do it, the time to shoot baskets for hours on end, and unfortunately, am only 5' ''10 . Does this stop me from going to the rec center, playing pickupball and loving basketball? Heck no, it makes me love it more and appreciate it when I see players who have done it. I understand how much time and practice it takes and it makes me appreciate thier talent even more.
Sometimes folks get in over their heads, trying to accomplish too much, too soon and often set very unrealistic goals for themselves. This can lead to frustration and disappointment and quench your passion for the instrument. I once had one student who procalimed to me that he would "take 6 months of lessons, go to jams, then get hired by a couple pro bands and within 5 yeas, be on the same level as Bela Fleck". I had to laugh until I saw he was serious. My advice was to take a common sense appraoch and not to expect miracles. He still plays banjo and is about where anyone with average ability and average practice time would be in 5 years. I've spoken to him about what he said at a local jam and he admits now that he was 'ignorant', haha.
Everyone should be honest with themselves about how much time and dedication they actually have. Will this match some lofty goal they have set? Most likely it will not. Sometimes goals change with life and circumstance and have to be scaled back to reality. The most important goal everyone can and should set, is to enjoy the banjo and take pride in learning anything that makes you better and elicits more joy from it. It doesnt really matter if the learning curve has big leaps or small steps, as long as YOU enjoy the process and the journey. Its never about reaching a final goal anyway, as we all are on a never ending path to getting better and loving the banjo more as we learn more about it. So, take stock of your own journey and see if you can 'find the love'-

Rich Weill - Posted - 03/12/2009:  06:48:29

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quote:

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Originally posted by rstieg

I don't do "Jazz-like improvisation", though I'm not too sure what you mean by that.

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I don't play from tab. So the songs I play are, by and large, improvised. I connect melody notes with rolls over a chord progression, using a few left-hand techniques to accentuate certain notes and some standard licks to fill in the pauses. The next time, I may play the same song slightly differently, either intentionally, or simply because I haven't memorized every detail of what I'm playing.

I used the term "jazz-like improvisation" to distinguish between what I just described -- the kind of improvisation Janet Davis teaches in her book "Splitting the Licks" (which I consider standard improvisation) -- and the more intricate kind of improvisation that Pat Cloud appears to be teaching in his book "The Key to the 5-String Banjo."

rstieg - Posted - 03/12/2009:  10:02:41

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Thanks, Rich, that makes sense. I haven't read Pat's book, but I'm aware of it and I'm fairly certain that I don't play "jazz-like improvisation" either. Like you, I've never played directly from tab, but I do use it a lot, especially when working up a new song. I rarely learn a full song or tune from tab, but I do often use tab to either supplement my own arrangements (which often originate from an improvisation) and/or combine parts of tabs from different sources. I also try to keep a record in tab of everything I learn, which can come in very handy to refresh my memory when I haven't been playing a specific song for quite some time.

RICH
Pleasanton, CA

The truth is a moving target... perception is more important than reality... everything is relative...

pcfive - Posted - 03/12/2009:  11:41:05

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I am so glad I don't have to learn alternate tunings to be a good-enough banjo player! When I first started, about 6 years ago I guess, I began learning D and G modal tunings, in addition to standard G, because I thought you absolutely had to. Of course I didn't get far -- I don't even have all the standard note locations and chord positions memorized yet!

After playing at jam session for the past 2 years I realized I have not seen the expert banjo players changing their tuning. Everyone moves the capo around constantly, of course, but I do not see much re-tuning. What a relief!

I started to really focus on Scruggs style (plus some melodic) in recent months. I put all my alternate tuning tabs in a "later" or "maybe some day" pile. I don't know how long it will take before my fingers can always jump instantly to the right note in standard G tuning, and until that happens I am leaving my strings tuned right where they are.

pcfive

pcfive - Posted - 03/12/2009:  11:49:22

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"The most important goal everyone can and should set, is to enjoy the banjo and take pride in learning anything that makes you better and elicits more joy from it."

Oh that is so true. I used to get discouraged because I was afraid I don't have real talent, and sometimes almost wanted to give up. What was the point in working at something I would never be any good at? But as I continue practicing every day I keep getting better. Several months ago I thought I would never get my banjo to sound like a banjo -- but now it does! And a year from now it will sound even better. We really don't know where we'll end up and the point is to enjoy getting there.

pcfive

pcfive - Posted - 03/12/2009:  11:52:56

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Oh and one more thing -- don't be too obsessed with what other people think. I sent a friend a recording I made the other day and expected him to say it was great, amazing, wonderful, but he didn't say anything. So I asked, what did you think of that recording I sent you? Oh -- yeah, that was ok, better than your others.

In the past I would let that discourage me, but no more.

pcfive

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/12/2009:  12:13:05

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The people who say learning different tunings help you understand the neck are only correct if you can actually translate, i.e. play the same song in different tunings. Otherwise, they're like separate instruments, like knowing five songs on the mandolin and knowing 10 different ones on the guitar and having to set down the guitar if you want to play one of your mandolin tunes.

Once I translated a couple songs from dbl-C tuning to D (because you always capo Angeline and Arkansas Traveler up to D) on an open-G banjo (simply spike the 5th string to A), I realized what was going on and also realized I only need one tuning for jamming and can use the others for spice or band situations.

Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

2finger3finger - Posted - 03/12/2009:  13:33:24

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Being able to play in other keys without a capo, at least backup and a simple break, is convenient when the group is jumping from key to key. Nobody wants to stop and wait for the banjo player to tune.

1890s A.C. Fairbanks Special Electric
1980s A.E. Smith Maple Leaf
1990s Wildwood Heirloom
- Custom resonator from David "Hog Fiddles" Fox

stillearning - Posted - 03/12/2009:  14:17:49

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RICH. As Banjophobic said 'This is a great topic" It makes me realize that maybe I am trying to hard to do to much. After reading everybodys comments, I have a different set of priorities. thanks again.

Tommy5 - Posted - 03/12/2009:  19:21:51

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Yes , i remember Steve Martin joking that he once practiced all day on the banjo, now i realize he probably wasn't joking.A good thing about this website is that there are so many different levels of banjo players on it, you can go to the jukebox and hear all kinds of tunes played by beginners and intermediate and real pros on the banjo.For me the banjo is an escape from the rough and tumble of the day, a little relax time, very theraputic,a few tunes to unwind from the hassle of life in the 21st. century, a cool thing about the banjo is fairly simple tunes, Cripple Crick, Jed Clampkett, Shady Grove, Circle unbroken sound just as cool to me and most folks as the more intricate stuff does.Crazy fast speed also sounds like crap to me more noise then music, anyway great post.

Bigbadbucksnort - Posted - 03/12/2009:  23:07:02

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This isn't exactly what you were asking for, but my experience suggests that psychology had as much to do with being able to jam as getting all of the tricks of the trade. Some psychological advice from my own experience; maybe it'll help.

The primary obstacle to picking with others for me was getting over what I would call the "Living Room Factor." Take everything right you do in your living room and divide it by half; take everything wrong and multiply it by two. That is, in all likelihood, where you'll be at when you first start to jam with other people. Sucks. But it's true. The only way to get around how much your living room flat-out lies to you, strokes your ego, and tells you you're worthless is to mimic playing with other people as much as possible. As Jody mentioned, metronome/cds. But that also comes with problems.

Even if your banjo is absolutely stable (and no banjo is all that stable) how it sounds in each jam situation is going to effect the way you play. DO NOT go into a jam session thinking that your banjo has to respond in only one way for you to be able to play it. Folks are always talking about pulling tone -- but in a vacuum. That's all well and good, but playability matters one hell of a lot more. Who you play with effects the way you sound -- or so I've found. If you can play a thumpy banjo better in a jam session than a bright one -- and you like bright ones better -- suck it up. When you've gotten to the point where you can play through some songs in your living room with decency, set up some obstacles that will challenge you the way that playing with other folks will challenge you. Standing up in a jam with the banjo pointed out at several other instruments that are pointed right back at you usually means you ain't going to hear your banjo as well. That freaks everybody out the first few times. Play at home with tissue stuffed in your ears or while listening to non-musical audio on headphones. That will mimic Farmer Joe who hasn't tuned his guitar since the Woa, wears it high up around his neck, and puts the soundhole somewhere near your temple - all with the rhythm of a car accident. The living room tricks you by making you believe that music happens in a vacuum of peace and tranquility. It don't. It sometimes happens in what is hardly less than hell.

And hey, you're going to blow it. Sin boldly. When you're playing at home, DELIBERATELY lose it on a tune and see how fast it will take you to get back in. And when you do blow it, the rules for hacky-sack apply: when you drop the ball, don't apologize. It wastes time. I mean, don't be Farmer Joe; but don't worry about it by looking for forgiveness. Go into those jam sessions accepting the fact that your performance will be such that your audience will shoot themselves in the head for sheer confusion, world chaos will ensue, and the earth will open up out of embarrassment and swallow you whole. But whatever happens let the jam session tell you what you need to work on -- NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. After some experience in the realm of jamming/playing live, then you may reverse the process. :)

Tobias

Cogito Ergo Banjo

arnie fleischer - Posted - 03/13/2009:  06:11:23

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Hey Rich, I kind of agree with Glen Tate: prioritize to achieve your short-term goals, but if you truly enjoy any of the aspects of banjo playing that are on your potential discard list - if anything on that list is fun and challenging and exciting for you - why give it up entirely? Sure, most of us have limits that define our playing, but trying to stretch those limits can be great fun and, ultimately, very rewarding. And over time, the experience of trying to expand your horizons can influence your mainstream playing. To paraphrase the Bizarre Foods guy Andrew Zimmern, if it sounds good, pick it.

Arnie

pcfive - Posted - 03/13/2009:  08:42:13

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When I'm home alone, playing a song I have played a thousand times, it often goes very well -- no mistakes, good speed and timing. But all I have to do is imagine that someone can hear me and it instantly starts going to heck. Or start recording. Sometimes I get almost to the end of recording a song with no mistakes -- yay! But then I think "wow I am almost through this song and no mistakes, maybe I can post it at banjohangout -- and just that thought causes me to screw up.

On the other hand, I can now get through some of the simple stuff under any conditions. I will not try anything fancy at jam sessions until it becomes second nature.



pcfive

Rich Weill - Posted - 03/13/2009:  09:23:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

When I'm home alone, playing a song I have played a thousand times, it often goes very well -- no mistakes, good speed and timing. But all I have to do is imagine that someone can hear me and it instantly starts going to heck. Or start recording. Sometimes I get almost to the end of recording a song with no mistakes -- yay! But then I think "wow I am almost through this song and no mistakes, maybe I can post it at banjohangout -- and just that thought causes me to screw up.

On the other hand, I can now get through some of the simple stuff under any conditions. I will not try anything fancy at jam sessions until it becomes second nature.

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Try this: Sit down in front of the television with the banjo in your lap. Turn on something you want to watch, and try to play while watching and listening to the television. Or, if there is someone in the house, try to play while carrying on (or at least listening to) a conversation. The cure for self-consciousness is to turn your conscious attention elsewhere.

pcfive - Posted - 03/13/2009:  10:57:10

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"The cure for self-consciousness is to turn your conscious attention elsewhere."

Yes maybe I could do that while playing something I have practiced for years and which is relatively simple. But for anything that is still complicated for me I have to concentrate intensely on what I'm doing. It has to be second nature before I can let my mind wander off. And I think that even if a song has become second nature to me, self-consciousness could still interfere. If I really care what someone else thinks of my playing, that can really get me screwed up.

I only started playing breaks at the jam session recently, and only because they have not been letting me hide in the background any more. At some point, the leader decides it's time to push someone "out of the nest." I'm very glad he does this, because I never would have jumped out of that nest on my own.

The fear can be quite intense in the beginning. It's like learning to get used to public speaking. I think that with a little more experience I won't be so self-conscious. I'm really just having fun, and I got tired of always playing alone.

pcfive

steve davis - Posted - 03/13/2009:  13:45:46

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I don't think I'd go to a jam with a leader.

PortClyde

pcfive - Posted - 03/13/2009:  17:34:19

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Ok well there isn't really a leader. I meant the guy who organizes the whole thing, rents the place, sends out the emails, etc. Nothing wrong with that. He also encourages beginners, which I think is great.

pcfive