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Rich Weill - Posted - 11/25/2010: 20:38:13
Some people play with bounce. Some don't. Some play with bounce sometimes. Which are you -- and why?
Cornflake - Posted - 11/25/2010: 23:02:26
I play the whole gamut. Just depends on the song. I personally enjoy bouncing tunes, but sometimes a song should be played straight and hard. I lose the bounce above about 120 bpm, but I really enjoy Munde and Wernick, who can keep it going at higher speeds.
Dave Magram - Posted - 11/25/2010: 23:36:59
I agree with Cornflake--it depends on the song and what the singer wants.
Earl Scruggs and Ralph Stanley played pretty much right on the beat, while Allen Shelton played a few micro-seconds ahead of the beat--which some call "bounce".
If you know about setting the ignition timing on car engines, it's the difference between "Top Dead Center (TDC)" and "Before Top Dead Center (BTDC)".
In my mind, Earl is a TDC player, while Allen was a BTDC player.
I try to emulate Earl as much as possible, so I usually play right on the beat.
But when I play Jim & Jesse classics like "Standing on a Mountain" or "Stony Creek", I try to give it a bit of that "Shelton bounce".
I did a recording one time with a vocalist that wanted more of that bounce on one particular song, so you just try to do what you can to make the vocalist happy. 
It also depends on what the band is doing rhythmically. If there is not a clear, cohesive beat occurring, or if the band hasn't found the groove, I've found it best to play right on the beat.
Adding "bounce" could cause a rhythmically shaky band to speed up, and banjo-players need to do their part to help the band to find the groove of the song and stay in it.
- Dave
O.D. - Posted - 11/26/2010: 06:30:52
IMHO I see bounce as a "feel".
I believe you could play with bounce ahead , behind, or on top of the beat. It is related to a particular rhythm,perhaps easiest to play with swing rythm, but noy nessacarily.
Regarding the band situation. Ive found that if I play with bounce the dynamic of the band picks up on the groove and the entire band is rhythmicly on board with the bounce.
Thats how I see it,but Im just a back yard picker, and certainly could be off base.
I like bounce. Listen to Garland Shuping, in addition to previously mentioned Al Shelton for good example's of bounce.
This is something Ive been putting time into myself lately.
Regards, O.D.
Rich Weill - Posted - 11/26/2010: 07:22:46
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
Earl Scruggs ... played pretty much right on the beat ... . I try to emulate Earl as much as possible, so I usually play right on the beat.
Are you saying that Earl didn't play with any bounce? What about Earl's "shuffle feel," which he writes about a lot in his book. And a while back, Richard Dress used Earl's version of "Hot Corn, Cold Corn" as the principal example of shifting the spaces between banjo notes --
banjohangout.org/archive/148696 -- that is, bounce.
Of course, it may depend on what you mean by "on the beat." Bounce doesn't change the timing of the "beat" notes (1-2-3-4-). It changes the timing of the "half-beat" notes (the "&" notes in 1-&-2-&-3-&-4-&-).
Don Borchelt - Posted - 11/26/2010: 07:55:26
Rich wrote: "What about Earl's "shuffle feel," which he writes about a lot in his book. "
I think what Earl calls "shuffle feel" comes more from the syncopated way he picks his rock-steady roll. The timing of the notes is basically dead-on even, but there is a slight dynamic emphasis on notes in the roll other than the notes directly on the beat. However, the roll is still generally played evenly from a timing stand point. Earl in his use of the term is drawing a parallel to the fiddle shuffle, where the back-beat gets a slight emphasis. It is similar to the mandolin chop, except the mandolin picker ONLY plays on the back-beat.
I think bounce as I use the term, and as it is described here, changing the timing of the "half-beat" notes in the roll by hesitating, is to be discouraged among novice pickers. Because new pickers have to start out really slow, there is a tendency to put in a bounce to make the tune sound more musically appealing. That often works fine at 60 bpm, but it generally turns the picking to mush when you get up to 120 bpm. But once it gets wired into the right hand/brain connection, it is really hard to unlearn it. It is vitally important for a student to master the rock-steady timing of the rolls first, before jumping into "bounce." One way to do that is to practice with a metronome, and play one tick per note at the slower tempos.
- Don Borchelt
Edited by - Don Borchelt on 11/26/2010 07:58:13
JoeDownes - Posted - 11/26/2010: 08:20:27
I think shuffle feel refers to, well, 'shuffle' rhythms like Heavy Traffic Ahead, where the first of each pair of 1/8 notes is longer (usually about twice as long) as the second.
Bounce is one of those ill defined words. Everyone seems to have his or her own idea about what it sounds like.
O.D. - Posted - 11/26/2010: 08:24:28
Very good post Don
Important suggestions.
Thanks for putting it into musical terms.
Regards, O.D.
steve davis - Posted - 11/26/2010: 08:41:29
I just play...I suppose it might bounce if appropriate.
Rich Weill - Posted - 11/26/2010: 08:56:20
Yes, Joe is correct. Earl's "shuffle feel" is not about dynamic emphasis. It is most assuredly about timing. Just look at page 62 of Earl Scruggs and the 5-String Banjo: it is a "bouncy shuffle feel or triplet feel, where the time value of the first of two sixteenth notes [in 2/4 time] in this book's tablature is slightly longer than the second note."
I also take issue with the notion that bounce causes problems at higher speeds. It doesn't cause problems -- it naturally fades and ultimately disappears. Bounce is all about the spaces between the notes. At higher speeds, all spaces shrink. At top speeds, it becomes impossible to distinguish between long and short spaces and thus there is no more bounce.
I was taught by Roger Sprung, who has been playing the banjo since 1947 and teaching since 1950. He would agree with you, Don, that "once [a timing] gets wired into the right hand/brain connection, it is really hard to unlearn it." That's why he insists that students learn to play with bounce (which he calls "pairing" for the fact that the notes are spaced in pairs: 1--&2--&3--&4--&1 ...) from day one. He considers playing notes evenly spaced as simply wrong.
I guess an appropriate follow-up question is: Which came first -- bounce or "even eights"? Stated another way, before there was tablature (which, for simplicity's sake, noted every song with even eighth (in 4/4 time) or sixteenth (in 2/4 time) notes), what was the default timing used by banjo players? Roger has never played from tab. He got his music from listening, first to recordings, then to live musicians with whom he played all over the country. So he has never been influenced by how timing is notated in tablature.
Richard Dress - Posted - 11/26/2010: 09:04:09
Bounce is a characteristic that is well-defined in jazz, I believe (they call it jazz eighth notes). It's about the spaces between the eighth notes in an 8 note measure. Every other space is equal but adjacent spaces are not. This difference between the two sizes is hard to detect as tempo increases. Anyway talking about music is hard to do. Here are some examples.
Here are two kickoffs where you can hear the extra space being inserted into the tempo. Jimmy Martin drops it in at the tail of his guitar run and Earl Scruggs puts his at the end of the 4th string slide:
Rich Weill - Posted - 11/26/2010: 09:13:37
I'll also throw in this example of Roger's: his banjo solos here (at :53 and 2:11): youtube.com/watch?v=E2ogLaRDXvE
To add to my tablature point above, the tablature of Earl's "Hot Corn, Cold Corn" example, which Richard posted (from the Flatt and Scruggs Carnegie Hall concert), appears on page 85 of Earl's book. Earl's bounce is not reflected in the tablature.
Edited by - Rich Weill on 11/26/2010 09:21:19
Don Borchelt - Posted - 11/26/2010: 09:36:43
Rich wrote: "Yes, Joe is correct. Earl's "shuffle feel" is not about dynamic emphasis. It is most assuredly about timing."
Well, I clearly stand corrected about what Earl meant by the term shuffle, but regardless of what Roger may have said, I still firmly believe that a novice should avoid putting "bounce" into his or her roll, until a solid, dead-on roll has been achieved at up-tempos. It is simply a lot easier to add bounce in than to take it out. The idea that at higher tempos the spaces between notes automatically become indistinguishable I believe is wishful thinking. When that occurs, it is because the picker has evened out the timing, whether consciously or not, out of good musical sense. However, if you don't start with the ability to pick with even timing, you are not likely to end up having it descend by osmosis. The fact that Roger Sprung says that we should never play with evenly spaced notes is, for me, still not persuasive.
I apologize for arguing so intensely, but I think this is a very important topic, especially for new pickers.
Edited by - Don Borchelt on 11/26/2010 10:06:47
Rich Weill - Posted - 11/26/2010: 10:12:04
Don, i respect your opinion. That's why I framed my original post as I did. I know that views vary widely on this subject. I cite Roger as often as I do because I do not have the standing to have a persuasive opinion here. He does -- but doesn't use a computer. So I try to represent his positions as accurately as I can.
I've noticed that Roger's bounce is even more pronounced now than it was on many of his earlier recordings. His playing truly epitomizes the old Steve Martin line: "The banjo is such a happy instrument. You can't play a sad song on the banjo, it always comes out so cheerful." I played in his monthly jam/performance (that is, a jam with an audience of 100-200 people) a few weeks ago. Two of the songs we played were "Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine" and Stephen Foster's "Hard Times." Roger even made those songs sound cheerful!
minstrelmike - Posted - 11/26/2010: 10:17:21
I agree with Don that playing evenly is important for new pickers.
However, I disagree that playing slow complex stuff with a metronome is the way to achieve that.
I much prefer folks get their forward roll up-to-speed before we worry about fretting chords and notes and doing slides and hammers and pull-offs. If you can't do TM TIM TIM at speed, then don't add anything else that will slow it down. I think working slowly with a metronome on complicated stuff is the worst thing for beginners (and it seems to be the default recommendation).
Dave Magram - Posted - 11/26/2010: 10:24:35
Rich wrote: “Are you saying that Earl didn't play with any bounce?”
My answer is “Yes”, but rather than accept my “nobody special” opinion, let’s listen to what several of the great banjo-players interviewed in The Masters of the Five-String Banjo say about “bounce time” versus “straight time”.
Sonny Osborne describes straight time as “…from three-quarters top part of the round beat to the top of it”. That’s what I really try to do.” (p. 114).
Later, Sonny says “Allen Shelton has that bouncy time. Ralph Stanley, to me, hits right in the middle of that beat…Scruggs is just about three-quarters of the way through it. He just gets there and stays there, though…He doesn’t have that bounce like Allen does. That’s Allen’s thing, that little bounce that he does.” (p 115).
Don Reno says, when asked by Tony Trischka if he plays straight time, “Yes, right…I like it better. Other people might like the other [bounce time] better… All I can do is tell you what I like.” (p. 85)
But when Peter Wernick asks Allen Shelton himself about the “Shelton bounce”, Allen says, “I really don’t know what it is that they’re hearing that makes you call it that….I don’t really try to do that. It just happens.” (p. 135)
What these guys are saying is that, “bounce time” occurs when the musician is anticipating the center of the beat (“playing ahead of the beat”), and if you are playing on the center of the beat, it is “straight time”.
I visualize it like a clock, where 12 o’clock is the top dead center of the beat, and 9 o’clock is ahead of the beat. However, we’re talking about a fraction of a second here.
If the tune is played at 120 bpm, that’s about 8 notes a second. So the space between the notes is about 0.125 of a second, and 1/4 of that (from 9:00 to 12:00 on our "beat clock") is about 0.03 of a second!
It is very difficult to explain “bounce” because we are dealing in a few hundredths of a second.
Even Allen Shelton can’t explain it.
FWIW, when I have done it, I found that if I consciously thought about it, it wouldn’t work. It is definitely a “feel” thing.
As Allen said, it just happens.
I disagree with the notion that “bounce timing” can be done by playing behind the beat.
If you are playing after the center of the beat you are “dragging the beat” if you do it badly, or “strongly syncopating” if you do it intentionally and very very well, at certain points--not throughout the song.
A slight syncopation, shifting the beat by an 1/8 or even a quarter-note, is acceptable for a banjo in traditional bluegrass (F&S, Monroe, Stanleys, etc.).
But strong jazz-like syncopation (shifting the melody into the next measure, or compressing the next measure melody into the current measure) is not acceptable for a banjo in traditional bluegrass—at least I can’t recall ever hearing it. (Listen to Willy Nelson singing Crazy with Elvis Costello and Diana Krall on YouTube for an example of strong syncopation.)
Fiddlers can get away with strong syncopation at times because of the glissando nature of their instrument.
If you are a beginner or an intermediate level player, I’d suggest concentrating on nailing “straight time” the way Earl, Don, Ralph, JD Crowe, and many more have done.
Put in some years performing onstage with good bands and perfecting your straight timing so that it drives the band along a solid groove.
Once that has been mastered, then you can tackle “bounce time” if you’re still interested.
I agree with Don Reno’s recommendation about learning to play the banjo: “Well, starting, I would say that I don’t think you could beat Earl Scruggs for a starter…That would be my advice to a person, starting with Earl’s method first and then go up the line. After he’s learned that, learn the fancier stuff.” (p. 83).
IMHO, “bounce time” is “fancier stuff”.
Good picking,
Dave
O.D. - Posted - 11/26/2010: 10:31:23
Getting back to the original post,bounce or no bounce.
i think some songs lend themselves to bouce say Foggy Mtn Special, and other songs not so much, as in Foggy Mtn Breakdown
Of course the speeds are generaly differant but that is the nature of music styles.
Swing seems to be generaly slower and breakdowns fast.
In any regard,no matter how the notation is represented it boils down as a way to convey emotion from the music. In that respect I sort of shy away from trieng to put it in any particular parameters.
as i said before its "feel", "feelin". "emotion" it varies from individual to individual
My 2 cents
Rergards, O.D.
Cornflake - Posted - 11/26/2010: 10:52:30
There's something about Earl's playing that makes it special (of course). It might have to do with a slight bounce that he uses on his many of his songs along with a very solid, even hit on the strings. I heard (or read) Ralph Stanley say that he himself plays it totally straight, at top dead center, whereas Earl plays a little bit off of that center. I thinks he's talking about bounce, but I'm not sure.
JoeDownes - Posted - 11/26/2010: 11:02:02
Dave,
so you understand bounce as playing on top of the beat?
What Rich is talking about is a shuffle rhythm, like Earl's playing on Heavy Traffic Ahead, for example.
Dave Magram - Posted - 11/26/2010: 11:27:56
Hi Rich,
Sorry--I didn't see your subsequent postings before I responded.
I thought that you were asking what other traditional bluegrass banjo-players choose for timing--bounce or straight time, and I provided examples of the approaches of the traditional bluegrass banjo-players I listened to the most over the years--Earl Scruggs, Ralph Stanley, Don Reno, Allen Shelton to de-mystify some of the confusion about what "bounce time" is.
If it isn't obvious already, I personally prefer to play traditional bluegrass, although I enjoy listening to all sorts of music.
I gather you prefer the "bounce" that Roger Sprung teaches and uses.
I'd suggest that if that is what you like-- go for it!
Roger was not interviewed in the The Masters of the Five-String Banjo book, so I don't know how he would describe his views on "bounce" versus "straight time" in traditional bluegrass.
As I recall, Roger mostly plays "progressive" banjo rather than traditional bluegrass material--"Yes Sir, That's My Baby", "Puff the Magic Dragon", etc., and I suspect that because of his choice of material he has adopted a different timing than Earl and the other traditional bluegrass players.
To my ear, Roger's "bounce" is not the same as Allen Shelton's bounce, but it shouldn't really matter to you.
Just play what the spirit moves you to do!
-Dave
Martian - Posted - 11/26/2010: 12:06:49
Check out Eddie Adcock in something like "Make me a pallet", kind of a funky, bluesy, jazzy bounce but cool to listen to, and not at all that easy to get.
Dave Magram - Posted - 11/26/2010: 12:16:43
Hi Joe,
In answer to your question, "so you understand bounce as playing on top of the beat?", the answer is "No".
“Bounce time” occurs when the musician is anticipating the center of the beat (“playing ahead of the beat”), as Allen Shelton is famous for.
If you are playing on the center of the beat (on top of the beat), it is “straight time”.
I agree with Sonny Osborne that Earl plays straight time on straight-ahead bluegrass like "Blue Ridge Cabin Home". I believe that Earl may very subtly slightly anticipate the beat at times, but not to the extent that Shelton did. I think of Earl at maybe 11:30, and Shelton at 9:00 on the "beat clock".
Who knows--we're talking about a window of perhaps 0.03 of a second between 9:00 and 12:00!
IMHO, what Earl is playing on his "Heavy Traffic Ahead" solo is not bounce time.
To me, it is swing-blues groove where the emphasis is on the off-beats (beats 2 and 4). If you tap your foot to it, the melodic emphasis comes when you are lifting your foot up--the off-beat.
It may sound like Earl is anticipating the beat, but to me he is really playing on the offbeat (the 6:00 position on the beat clock).
I'm not sure what Earl meant by his comments on "shuffle feel". (My copy of Earl's book is from 1968, and there is nothing on "shuffle feel" on Page 62, as Rich mentions.)
When I think of "shuffle feel", I think of Ray Price's "Crazy Arms" that one can dance the Texas Two-Step to. Earl's "I'll Just Pretend" back-up is to me a "shuffle feel".
(I've never really tried to analyze this stuff in words before, so if Banjophobic, The Kidd, or Ira Gitlin want to jump in here and correct me, please go ahead. They are much better at it than I am)
If you want to hear "bounce time", listen to Allen Shelton playing "Standing on a Mountain" or "I Wish You Knew" with Jim & Jesse. That's what Sonny and the others are talking about!
- Dave
Edited by - Dave Magram on 11/26/2010 12:30:48
JoeDownes - Posted - 11/26/2010: 13:04:27
Dave, what you call ahead of the beat is the same that I call on top of the beat. See this article: drummercafe.com/education/less...beat.html
Drummers also do call the swing-blues groove 'shuffle'. Anyway that's the rhythmic quality that Rich describes as bounce, if I understand his question.
Rich Weill - Posted - 11/26/2010: 14:38:52
As I said above, what I call "bounce" is dead "on the beat" for the four notes that occur on the four beats of the measure. Only the notes in between -- the off-beat notes -- are affected. This is precisely how Earl notates the rhythm of his "shuffle feel."
Dave, although Masters of the 5-String Banjo has no full interview with Roger Sprung, he was surveyed and his "motto and advice" included. In the survey, Roger listed Allen Shelton as his primary influence. This is particularly interesting when you consider that Roger started on the banjo at age 17, when Shelton was 11 years old. As Roger recounts it, during the initial phase of his banjo career, he performed fast songs much better than slow songs. His slow songs were missing something. Discovering "pairing" or "bounce" changed all that. Indeed, Roger's "advice" in Masters of the 5-String Banjo includes that "the most important catalyst for improving is the syncopation, phrasing, and 'pairing' of the notes."
Dave Magram - Posted - 11/26/2010: 15:23:34
Hi Joe,
Thanks for the link to the interesting drumming article--I've never thought before of viewing the band "pulse" as a canoe!
I think we are saying the same thing, just viewed from a different angle.
These are two different, but closely related things--the "beat clock" and the "band pulse".
I think the author of the drum article is trying to show what happens to the pulse (the canoe) -- depending where in the beat-clock you place the downbeat.
It is the other side of the coin from the way I am viewing it, since I am trying to describe the phases of the beat, and hadn't really addressed the effect on the band pulse.
Rather than start a debate with the Drum Forum (I've found that it's really difficult to debate with drummers--just kidding), let me define what I mean and tie it to what I think the drum article is trying to say.
Here's an analogy.
It is like making a car move. Before the car will move, you have to get the engine firing.
If the engine ignition timing is not correct, the engine might run, but will not have enough power to make the car move, since most car engines deliver a series of "pulses" smoothed out by the flywheel to make the car move forward smoothly. (Ooh, I hope you like this analogy as much as I do!)
A car's ignition timing is just like the "beat clock", and the car itself is the "canoe".
There is a "Top Dead Center" and a "Before Top Dead Center" position for the pistons—and somewhere between those is where the sparkplug must be timed to fire (the sparkplug being the banjo).
If the ignition timing isn't set right, the car won't move all, or only lurch along--much like the pulse of a band if the rhythm timing isn't right.
And if the sparkplugs are timed to fire After Top Dead Center, the engine will not run at all. (Don't ask me how I know this.)
By the same token, playing behind the beat (after the 12:00 position) will cause the band pulse (the canoe) to slow down or just fall apart.
Here’s the way I believe that Sonny Osborne and other musicians I know describe the phases of a beat. Sonny calls it a "round beat" and describes it in a similar way to my “beat clock”.
Keep in mind that the distance around the beat-clock may be only one-third of a second or less in bluegrass!
The top of the "beat clock" is of course the 12:00 position--where the metronome hits the downbeat.
The bottom of the beat clock is 6:00, where the metronome would hit the off-beat--if you have one of those fancy metronomes that can click on the off-beat also.
Anticipating the downbeat means striking the banjo note somewhere between the 9:00 position ("three-quarters of the way around" as Sonny puts it), and before the 12:00 downbeat spot (the metronome click).
By anticipating the downbeat this way (playing ahead of the metronomic downbeat), you are propelling the pulse of the band (the "canoe") forward, which ties into the way the author of the drum article was describing it.
In Banjoland, this is often called "bounce time", as in the "Allen Shelton bounce".
As I mentioned before, without a strong and cohesive rhythm section, this could cause a band to speed up.
Of course, with Jim & Jesse, Allen had a great rhythm section to "bounce" off of!
Playing "on the beat", "in the middle of the beat" or "on top of the beat" means striking the string pretty much at 12:00 position, exactly where the metronome would strike. This is what Trischka and Wernick, call "straight time".
Straight time is what Scruggs, Reno, Osborne, Crowe, Stanley play.
By playing in the center of the beat at 12:00, the pulse of the band stays very steady, as the drum article points out.
It is my belief that Earl in particular would often very subtly shift to slightly anticipating the beat for part of a measure, and then go back to straight time--which gives his playing less of a monotonic quality, and is one of the nuances that sets Earl apart from many others.
Does this make sense?
Do I need to start a war with the Drum Forum?
Dave
JoeDownes - Posted - 11/26/2010: 16:37:09
Thanks Dave, I understand your point and I like both pictures, the clock and the engine. It's difficult to talk about rhythmic aspects of bluegrass, as the words are not well defined. I've read a lot of discussion on this board about bounce and as far as I remember no one ever mentioned playing ahead of the beat. Most folks seem to think of bounce as either shuffle or syncopation.
steve davis - Posted - 11/26/2010: 17:03:19
Playing it is more important than defining it.
Rich Weill - Posted - 11/26/2010: 18:29:15
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis
Playing it is more important than defining it.
My purpose in starting this thread had nothing to do with definitions. So let me flip the question around: Why play eight-note rolls as eight evenly spaced notes, including for slow songs? Is this the sound you prefer? Is it because that's what the tab says? Is that how you were instructed to play? Does using a metronome have anything to do with it? Is it because of how others play? Is it because you've never tried to play any other way (or have tried another way without success)?
I've made no secret of how I was taught, and the timing I prefer. I respect contrary points of view, but would like to understand them better. For example, I myself have wondered whether sad songs should be played with bounce. Maybe bounce
is a key reason "you can't play a sad song on the banjo" -- and should be dropped from some songs for just this reason. But I do love that sound.
Dave Magram - Posted - 11/26/2010: 20:16:49
Joe, thanks for your comments.
I don’t know if you have played in bands or not, but I can tell you from personal experience that discussions about where the band is playing relative to what I call the “beat clock”, and it’s effect on the band “pulse” are fairly common among experienced musicians.
It is much harder to get a band into a cohesive rhythmic groove than to get everyone in tune.
-A friend of mine is in a country band with several very experienced semi-professional musicians with a number of recordings and tours under their belts, and they recently devoted an entire rehearsal to work just on the band’s rhythm.
-It took weeks for Linda Ronstadt’s producer Peter Asher to lay down just the rhythm tracks for her mega-hit “Heat Wave” in the 70’s:
"We tried cutting rhythm tracks several different times," said Asher, "each with a slightly different group of musicians. None of them sounded right. So eventually we got down to Andrew playing drums and Kenny playing bass. Andrew is a remarkable musician, but even then just getting a bass and drum track took a few days to do."
These fine points of rhythm were not something I was aware of when I was starting out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rich wrote:
"My purpose in starting this thread had nothing to do with definitions."
Rich, I had already composed my response below before seeing your above comment.
If you don’t mind, I’m going to go ahead and post my reply even though it discusses definitions, because there seems to be a lot of confusion about the word “bounce”.
You also wrote:
"I respect contrary points of view, but would like to understand them better."
My friend, I’m glad to hear that--I'm just trying to offer another point of view.
Rich, my understanding of this forum is that it is, ideally a place to share information in a helpful way and clear up misperceptions, and that is my intent here.
If that is not of interest to you, just let me know and I will drop off your thread unless directly asked a question.
I listened to the YouTube clip of Roger Sprung playing the Dead’s “Ripple”, and it seems to me that you and I are talking about two very different things with the word “bounce”.
I do hear Roger strongly anticipate the beat for the first few notes at the beginning of several of the lines in his solos, but then he seems to settle down to playing pretty close to straight time for most of the rest of the line.
I agree that this makes Roger’s solos more interesting, and fits with the genre: Grateful Dead music played with bluegrass instruments.
However, I think that you will agree that this is not traditional bluegrass, like “Little Cabin Home on the Hill”.
What Sprung is doing is very different than what many well-known bluegrass players call “bounce”, as in the “Allen Shelton bounce”, which is what I have been describing.
Rather than anticipating the beat in just a few places throughout his solo, Shelton would play slightly ahead of the beat all the way through his solo giving the song or tune a unique “forward lilt”.
Another difference is that Shelton would play this “all bounce all the time” on traditional country/bluegrass songs like “Don't Say Goodbye If You Love Me”, (Blue Sky Boys) or “I Wish You Knew” (Louvin Brothers), as well as Chuck Berry’s Johnny B Goode.
Give a listen to “I Wish You Knew” Jim & Jesse with Allen Shelton
youtube.com/watch?v=OAK9LwOQeq8
or Jim & Jesse- Fire On The Mt. and Don't Say Goodbye If You Love Me
youtube.com/watch?v=1cuyNS0-goc&NR=1
Wouldn’t you agree that Shelton’s “bounce” is very different from Sprung’s?
I'm not implying that one is better than the other--Sprung’s approach fits his material, just as Shelton’s approach fits his.
- Dave
Edited by - Dave Magram on 11/26/2010 20:20:55
Stringfella - Posted - 11/26/2010: 21:29:16
Hey Rich,
To answer the original question, my using bounce or not varies. Sometimes slow songs are better with "bounce" rather than rigid "straight" notes. I guess it reflects the style of the song whether it works or not and somewhat if it fits with the style of the ensemble.
My definition of bounce, I think the same as yours, is the difference between:
Ra-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-tat. (straight)
and
Laaa-di-daaa-di-daaa-di-daaa. (bounce!)
Some folks were talking about "anticipating" the down beat (or before "top dead center"?). This is a different aspect of syncopation and differs from what I think you are asking about, which is a slight delay of the "off" beat, which several other posters also made note of.
Rich Weill - Posted - 11/26/2010: 21:38:00
Dave, I'm not sure what you mean by "Shelton bounce." Are you saying that Shelton spaced his notes evenly, but played them -- evenly -- all slightly ahead of the beat (as established by the other instruments)? Or are you saying that Shelton both altered the spacing of his notes and played them ahead of the beat?
Every description I have ever heard or read of "bounce" -- including from Bill Keith, Bill Knopf, and others -- has focused exclusively on the spacing of the off-beats within the four beat framework, not shifting the four beats ahead of the other instruments. In other words, "bounce," Earl's "shuffle feel," and Roger's "pairing" are all the same.
But, again, I'd like to hear more about why players like evenly spaced notes.
steve davis - Posted - 11/26/2010: 21:42:47
It's not always appropriate,imo.
Songs like Louise or Waiting For a Train.
Country stuff often gets a smoother treatment,such as I Overlooked an Orchid or
Cattle Call(though there is one quick note in the middle of the yodel).
Deaf David - Posted - 11/27/2010: 05:50:24
Trying to figure out even if everyone is talking about the same thing when all we can do is type about musical qualities is like trying to give a hair cut over the phone.
Are y'all talking about the difference, say, between Earl's version of Fireball Mail and Down the Road? Or something different?
Dave Magram - Posted - 11/27/2010: 08:15:11
Rich,
Thanks for continuing to consider other points of view to clear up what is a confusing topic, and one that is not easy to articulate.
You wrote:
“Are you saying that Shelton spaced his notes evenly, but played them -- evenly -- all slightly ahead of the beat (as established by the other instruments)?”
That is exactly what I am saying-- that is what the “Shelton bounce” sounds like to me, and if you have listened to the two YouTube clips of Allen Shelton that I suggested, I think you will agree that is what Shelton is doing.
Shelton’s “bounce” provides a “forward lilt” throughout the entire song or tune, by consistently playing slightly before the metronomic downbeat (“three-quarters around the beat”, as Sonny Osborne describes it).
What Roger Sprung is doing, to my ear, is not a consistent “bounce” or “lilt” throughout the entire song (like Shelton), but “syncopation” in certain measures.
And, as you pointed out, in his “Mottoes & Advice” in the Masters of the Five-String Banjo book, Roger himself refers to his “syncopation”—he doesn’t use the word “bounce”.
I can’t comment on Earl’s term “shuffle feel”, since I couldn’t find any reference to it in my 1968 edition of his book-- but I do not agree with the notion that Shelton’s “bounce” and what Sprung is doing are the same—because they do not sound at all similar to me.
They are in fact, quite different--if one listens to them-- wouldn't you agree?
I’ve never spent much time reading about banjo-playing—I had to dust off both the Earl book and the Masters book—so this has been an interesting topic.
As somebody quoted Steve Martin, “Talking about music is like dancing about architecture.”
However, I believe that it is important to clarify terminology so as not to confuse newer players.
Bottom line, I’d agree with Roger Sprung’s own words that what he is doing is “syncopation”, and I’d agree with Wernick, Trischka, Osborne, and Reno, that what Shelton is doing is “bounce”.
I think it is clear by listening to these two players, what they are doing is very different.
My suggestion is to use Roger’s own words (“syncopation”) to describe what he is doing, so as to not confuse it with Shelton’s (very different) consistent “bounce” or “lilt”.
Does that make sense?
- Dave
Rich Weill - Posted - 11/27/2010: 08:18:22
quote:
Originally posted by JoeDownes
I do hear it here for example: youtube.com/watch?v=tyQr0zGdNdA
Yes, particularly from 2:12 to 2:27.
I hear bounce in most good banjo playing. You don't hear much of it in Ralph Stanley's
fast playing (for reasons stated above), but you hear it here (at 2:34 to 2:41):
youtube.com/watch?v=9eciObRuQZk
Jody Hughes - Posted - 11/27/2010: 08:25:44
It depends on the song. I lean more towards bounce in a great deal of my repertoire. However, If I'm playing something like "Wild Bill Jones" or "In the Gravel Yard," I play Straight feel as much as I can. Different situations call for different approaches.
I must say it is not something I consciously think about, I came to where I'm at by listening to A LOT of bluegrass/jazz/etc and trying to re-create those soundsl. My favorite bluegrass banjoist was Allen Shelton, so it was natural after a while of studying to have bounce in my playing.
jodyhughesmusic.com
Rich Weill - Posted - 11/27/2010: 08:39:47
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
My suggestion is to use Roger’s own words (“syncopation”) to describe what he is doing, so as to not confuse it with Shelton’s (very different) consistent “bounce” or “lilt”. Does that make sense?
Roger's word for bounce is "pairing." That's the word from his "Masters" quote you should be focusing on.
I've spent many, many hours with Roger. I think I know what he means and doesn't mean. Just like Bill Keith, he teaches the Chat-ta-noo-ga rhythm. It's exactly the same as how Earl notates his "shuffle feel" (using standard notation) in his book. And it has nothing to do with advancing the downbeat of a measure ahead of the other instruments. In fact, Roger insists that his students tap their foot on the 1st and 3rd beat of each measure. As he puts it: "You tap to what the others are playing, and then you play to your foot." That's not pushing the downbeat.
When Roger speaks of "syncopation," he is referring to delaying a melody note. For example, if the first melody note of a measure is on the 1st string, but you start that measure on the 2nd string followed immediately by that 1st string melody note, Roger considers what you are doing as "syncopating" that melody note. He also teaches two-measure rolls is which the first note of the second measure in on the 5th string, which also delays the next melody note. That's also "syncopation."
As to the Allen Shelton issue you raise, first, I think you are confusing "bounce" with "drive." Pushing the beat gives the music drive. It doesn't give it bounce. "Bounce" comes from the spacing within the measure, not pushing the entire measure ahead. Second, in the slower of your two Shelton examples, I also hear the kind of bounce we're talking about. But it's not as pronounced as Roger's. Roger's bounce is the most pronounced I've ever heard.
Roger combines the "pairing of the notes" along with accents and strategically placed pauses to make his bounce really stand out. That's why I use examples of his playing. They make it easiest for the listener to understand the concept.
Edited by - Rich Weill on 11/27/2010 09:00:59
Dave Magram - Posted - 11/27/2010: 09:08:14
Rich,
Thanks for your quick reply.
It sounds like we are in complete agreement that what Roger Sprung is doing is very different from what Allen Shelton is doing:
- You wrote: “…I've spent many, many hours with Roger. I know what he means and doesn't mean…And it has nothing to do with advancing the downbeat of a measure ahead of the other instruments…. As he puts it: "You tap to what the others are playing, and then you play to your foot." That's not pushing the downbeat.”
- In contrast, Allen Shelton consistently pushed the downbeat (by playing slightly in advance of it) throughout the song—what many banjo players call the “Shelton bounce”-- and clearly different than what Sprung is doing.
Now that we have that cleared up, perhaps we can find a way to bring peace to the Middle East.
I’m curious--you wrote that “Roger's word for bounce is "pairing."
I’ve never heard the term “pairing” before in a rhythmic context—what did he mean by that?
- Dave
Jody Hughes - Posted - 11/27/2010: 09:13:18
I just thought I would add that this "pushing the downbeat" you speak of is a device found throughout early jazz and New Orleans music. It contributes to the "swing" of music........Yes, now there is another term to argue about; swing, syncopating, bounce, even, straight, all very descriptive terms :)
steve davis - Posted - 11/27/2010: 10:27:37
I believe Allen played what felt right to him.
Develop an opinion of your own about what sounds and feels right.
Develop musical taste.
Rich Weill - Posted - 11/27/2010: 10:46:06
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
It sounds like we are in complete agreement that what Roger Sprung is doing is very different from what Allen Shelton ... Allen Shelton consistently pushed the downbeat (by playing slightly in advance of it) throughout the song—what many banjo players call the “Shelton bounce”-- and clearly different than what Sprung is doing.
Nice try, Dave. I agree that Roger is not "consistently pushing the downbeat," but I do
not agree that "consistently pushing the downbeat" is "what many banjo players call the 'Shelton bounce.'" As I've already said, the Shelton recording of "Don't Say Goodbye If You Love Me" has the exact same "pairing of the notes" that Roger talks about and uses (although Roger's is more pronounced). That's what the "Shelton bounce" is all about, not the "pushing the downbeat."
The quote you used earlier from
Masters of the 5-String Banjo supports what I am saying, and not your point. You quote Sonny Osborne as follows: “Allen Shelton has that bouncy time. Ralph Stanley, to me, hits right in the middle of that beat … Scruggs is just about three-quarters of the way through it. He just gets there and stays there, though … He doesn’t have that bounce like Allen does. That’s Allen’s thing, that little bounce that he does” (p. 115). Sonny is specifically talking about "swing" versus "straight time," not "pushing the beat." And Sonny's key words are "middle of that beat" and "three-quarters of the way through it." He is speaking about the notes that fall between the beats -- the off-beat or half-beat notes. Are they "right in the middle of that beat" or "about three-quarters of the way" toward the next beat note or do they fall even closer to the next beat. That's bounce -- that is, the spacing of the "&" notes (from 1-&-2-&-3-&-4-&-1- to 1--&2--&3--&4--&1--) -- not the pushing of the downbeat ahead of where the other instruments are playing it.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
I’m curious--you wrote that “Roger's word for bounce is "pairing." I’ve never heard the term “pairing” before in a rhythmic context—what did he mean by that?
I thought I'd explained that several times, but here goes again: "Pairing" is grouping the notes in two-note pairs. Just look at my illustration above. See how in, in "straight time," the rhythm is 1-&-2-&-3-&-4-&-1-, while with bounce the rhythm is 1--&2--&3--&4--&1--? See how the &2, &3, &4 and &1 in bounce time are two-note pairs? That's "pairing." [And you'll also notice how the 1, 2, 3, 4, 1 in
both examples are spaced equally. The only difference is the placement of the notes in between.]
Edited by - Rich Weill on 11/27/2010 10:54:44
Deaf David - Posted - 11/27/2010: 13:52:29
quote:
Originally posted by JoeDownes
I don't hear 'bounce' in the sense of shuffle rhythm in either. I do hear it here for example: youtube.com/watch?v=tyQr0zGdNdA
Thanks. That helps clarify what is being discussed--at least for me.
Banjophobic - Posted - 11/27/2010: 15:22:28
This seems to be a hotly debated topic at times. Allen Shelton is the' poster boy' for 'bounce'. If its hard to understand what 'bounce' sounds like, then listening to Allens playing will give you great examples as it applies to some classic bluegrass banjo. If one cant hear/feel the 'bounce' or think there is none there, then chances are theres something missing in either the basic understanding of 'bounce' or some ear skills lacking.
Sometimes we can get too far into semantics and definitions and not using our ears. Anytime a student has trouble feeling 'bounce', I tell them to listen to Allens playing and examine it closely. If they come back later and say they didnt hear any bounce, I then know theres more work to do...
Edited by - Banjophobic on 11/27/2010 15:31:27
JoeDownes - Posted - 11/27/2010: 15:45:42
So this is bounce, according to the bluegrass gospel: youtube.com/watch?v=ansy3950bQ4
He swings it quite a bit, there's syncopation and there's the 'playing on top of/ahead of the beat' thing going on. Maybe the Shelton bounce refers to a combination of all those qualities.
Banjophobic - Posted - 11/27/2010: 15:58:33
quote:
Originally posted by JoeDownes
So this is bounce, according to the bluegrass gospel: youtube.com/watch?v=ansy3950bQ4
He swings it quite a bit, there's syncopation and there's the 'playing on top of/ahead of the beat' thing going on. Maybe the Shelton bounce refers to a combination of all those qualities.
I dont know about the "gospel" part Joe, but I will say a big AMEN......
Dave Magram - Posted - 11/27/2010: 19:15:47
Rich,
Thanks for your explanation of Roger Sprung’s “pairing” concept.
I’m sorry, but I just don’t get it.
Too dense, I suppose.
I’m the first to admit that I’m not very good at writing about music—when I’m trying to explain a concept to a band-mate, I usually just show him/her. This is the first time I’ve tried to put these concepts into words, and it seems that I haven’t done a very good job of it. 
In one of your postings addressed to me, you wrote:
“I think you are confusing "bounce" with "drive."
Since we don’t seem to be communicating very well with the written word about “bounce” and “drive”, I’ve attached an audio-clip of a tune I recorded a few years ago with a local band, Highway One.
I’d like your opinion (and anyone else’s) if you think I play it with bounce or drive--or neither.
- Dave
Richard Dress - Posted - 11/27/2010: 19:42:56
I'd say drive, yes and bounce, no.
Rich Weill - Posted - 11/27/2010: 19:56:57
A terrific piece, Dave, but I agree with Richard. That's drive, not bounce.
Allen Shelton's "Banjo Bounce," that Joe posted, is a great example of bounce. But it sounds to me like Shelton is hitting the downbeat at the same time the other instruments are hitting the downbeat. Or perhaps I can't hear the slight difference, if there is any.
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