Richard Dress - Posted - 05/24/2009:  09:04:09

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A lot has been said about those spaces between the notes. For a lot of banjo students, this is an invisible land, like a place in another dimension. They wonder, does it really exist? And if it does, so what? Is it like Oz? How do you get to that place?

Well, at some point a banjo player has to go there, because that's where the 'bluegrass feel' hangs out. If you want your picking to have that 'bluegrass sound', then you have to go to that magic place in between the notes and learn how to get rid of that 'German Marching Band' feeling that dominates your music.

Some of you may be at the point where you want to shake off that 'oom pah pah' tuba that lives in your banjo. Your ears perk up and you start looking for the tornado that will whisk you off to that magic land of spaces. But wait. You don't have to go to Oz, after all.

OK, get out your checkbooks and mail Earl Scruggs a $100 for his excellent lesson on 'Spaces'. You can find this lesson in the elongated pause between the slide and the pinch of his kickoff to "Hot Corn Cold Corn" in the Carnegie Hall album.

You intermediate pickers should spend about a month on this lesson, listening carefully to that little piece of silence.

Docmhc - Posted - 05/24/2009:  09:17:32

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Just curious if this was "aimed" at someone in particular. After only 2 years of playing, with not a singe lesson, I still consider myself a novice. However, I've been playing Hot Corn Cold Corn for a year and a half and was putting the space in there just fine from the start. When my son heard Earl play it on the Carnegie Hall CD, he exclaimed, "Hey! That's the same thing you play!" I took that as quite a compliment.

Don

"I have a higher and grander standard of principle than George Washington. He could not lie; I can, but I won''t." Mark Twain

Westvon - Posted - 05/24/2009:  09:25:35

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The amount of time between notes A------B------C------D, etc, are the same. Rushing notes would look like the following.


A......B......C..D..E......F..G......H Etc

David Russell

www.reverbnation.com/hardlinedrive

www.georgiamountainmedia.com

Charley wild - Posted - 05/24/2009:  09:34:30

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Timing and time are the essence of any style of music played on any instrument. It is of extreme importance in Bluegrass style banjo with it's uptempo repetitve rolls. Without good time and timing (which are two different things) a player tends to achieve what I call the "machine gun" effect. I've heard it too often even from advanced players.

"A wise man changes his mind. A fool never does".
J.A. Jance

Richard Dress - Posted - 05/24/2009:  09:37:05

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Don, my post is just a 'pro bono' effort to motivate some members of the HO to strive for a new level of banjo playing. It doesn't really relate to any current threads. If you look deep enough you might pin it on my horror of the Horst Wessel banjo player that we see everywhere, disfiguring the bluegrass scene.

I wish you had a sound file so I could hear if you continued that extra space throughout your version of the song. I would be amazed if a novice had such a good ear. It took me 30 years of listening before I could hear it, much less play it. But that may be just a matter of talent--they skipped me when they handed out the talent.

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Edited by - Richard Dress on 05/24/2009 11:27:16

Lachlan - Posted - 05/24/2009:  09:44:03

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I think the original post tries to describe musicianship. You're either born with a gift, or you try to hone some skills into something passable. A banjo player can be methodical and mechanical and sound great, but a true musician can sound "right." A musician makes the instrument seem as if it is a part of themselves, that they exist to make sound come forth from it. A passable banjo player, on the other hand, can make you think, "Wow, that's pretty good. I wonder how many hours they spend practicing?" Musicians don't even suggest that thought- it's almost as if they are so bonded to their instrument that mere practice is unnecessary, like practicing getting your heart to beat, for example.

Lachlan

Docmhc - Posted - 05/24/2009:  10:00:13

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Yes, I do continue it through the entire tune. I hear a lot of sound file posts that are played too fast and, like you mention, with the spaces left out, presumably to gain speed. I'm not a fast player. Maybe that's why I keep the spaces where they belong. A tune just doesn't sound right without them.

Don

"I have a higher and grander standard of principle than George Washington. He could not lie; I can, but I won''t." Mark Twain

Dragonnail1 - Posted - 05/24/2009:  10:04:24

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is there an H?

Mark

"got banjo"?

Richard Dress - Posted - 05/24/2009:  10:06:27

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My hat's off to you. I wish I had such a good ear. Having that knowledge in the beginning would have saved me about 30 years of bad banjo playing.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 05/24/2009:  12:01:09

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The worst part of my playing before was what I call banjo scrubble. All the notes sound scrubbily. Not a word but just a feeling. When I set out to relearn banjo I thought it would be easy for all my infinite wisdom would serve me well. Fact is I sucked. Richard addresses the most important part of playing and that is the smooth distribution of notes played with confidence and clarity. I use my drum machine at least once a day for at least 20 minutes if not a lot more. I have found that when I learn a tune or passage that I start at about 50 beats a minute or less. I work my way up 5 beats a minute always striving for SPACE BETWEEN NOTES, SOLID TIMING AND PLAY IT LIKE IT IS THE LAST CHANCE I WILL GET TO. That formula will work no mater how new or experienced you are. Listen to each note it has its very important place, Thanks Richard this is very vital stuff

Banjo Wes
All things excellent are difficult as they are rare.

Spinoza

Charley wild - Posted - 05/24/2009:  12:25:11

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Wes, you and I have a bit in common as I'm kind of re-learning after a long layoff. Years ago I was too arrogant or too stupid to use a metronome. This time around I use one for all my practice except when I'm trying to note out a new tune or when I'm playing with a rhythm track. It has made a BIG difference in my playing. I'm not technically as good as I was but what I do play I play a lot better than I used to. Plus I've slowed down my practice tempos quite a bit. As I mentioned above, to me, timing and time are everything. (I'm also listening to J.D. and Allen Shelton a lot! lol). And Earl. of course!

"A wise man changes his mind. A fool never does".
J.A. Jance

Ukeridge - Posted - 05/24/2009:  21:11:43

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I was wondering why you said, some post ago, that the space was the difficult part. But I'm a bit confused (possibly because it didn't seem that hard to me). The space you're talking about is a rest, which, if you hear it right, is a lot easier to "play" than the spaces between rapid fire eighth notes.




----------------------
"That''s how I roll."

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 05/25/2009:  04:25:48

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We are talking between each note and on each side of the note

Banjo Wes
All things excellent are difficult as they are rare.

Spinoza

custom15player - Posted - 05/25/2009:  06:49:35

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I always encourage my students to achieve the "machine gun' timing. From there they can not play during certain parts of the beat if they desire but I believe you have to play it like a metronome before you start syncopating or leaving larger spaces for whatever reason.

Ukeridge - yeah, the spaces are easier to play but if you can't play the rapid fire notes you are not ready to leave them out, imo.

ANd learning the H chord is a real challenge!

It''s great to be a Florida Gator!
If you can catch more flies with honey why do outfielders wear gloves?

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Edited by - custom15player on 05/25/2009 06:50:26

Rich Weill - Posted - 05/25/2009:  07:07:16

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This raises the recurring question of whether notes should be evenly spaced, or played with "bounce." The "Hot Corn, Cold Corn" section Richard cites is a great example of bounce. That's how I was taught to play. But that's not how a lot of banjo players are taught. Bill Evans and Ron Block both have posted on BHO at various times advocating that all notes be evenly spaced. Bounce has been deemed old-fashioned. It has been replaced by the altar of the metronome. [I recently read Sonny Osborne's comments on the metronome in "Masters of the 5-String Banjo." They weren't complimentary.]

I often wonder whether the tendency toward playing notes evenly would have developed if the creators of tablature had been able to find an easy way to notate the timing of the notes accurately. But they didn't. Rather, and only for the sake of simplifying the notation, they transcribed each measure of 8 notes as spaced equally apart.

I'm with you, Richard. It's all in the spaces. And no matter how tab represents them, all spaces were not created to be equal.

Charley wild - Posted - 05/25/2009:  08:14:30

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

This raises the recurring question of whether notes should be evenly spaced, or played with "bounce." The "Hot Corn, Cold Corn" section Richard cites is a great example of bounce. That's how I was taught to play. But that's not how a lot of banjo players are taught. Bill Evans and Ron Block both have posted on BHO at various times advocating that all notes be evenly spaced. Bounce has been deemed old-fashioned. It has been replaced by the altar of the metronome. [I recently read Sonny Osborne's comments on the metronome in "Masters of the 5-String Banjo." They weren't complimentary.]

I often wonder whether the tendency toward playing notes evenly would have developed if the creators of tablature had been able to find an easy way to notate the timing of the notes accurately. But they didn't. Rather, and only for the sake of simplifying the notation, they transcribed each measure of 8 notes as spaced equally apart.

I'm with you, Richard. It's all in the spaces. And no matter how tab represents them, all spaces were not created to be equal.

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Interesting. With out some "Bounce" and syncopation the music has no character. No soul if you will. It becomes a mere technical exercise. I'm not surprised some of these young guys advocate the machine gun approach. It's exactly the way their playing sounds. It precisely why I don't buy a lot of CDs featuring the younger groups. The same thing is happening with the mandolin and dobro. It seems like a contest among some to see how notes they can jam into a measure. I don't agree with the above approach of teaching evenly spaced notes first and then some space and timing. Space and timing are hard enough to teach some students to begin with. I started right from lesson one with timng and bounce it you will. That way the student doesn't have to unlearn something down the line. The student begins to put their individual stamp on their playing from the first time they pick up a banjo NOT six months down the line. They do that naturally. Timing and syncopation should be stressed from day one not taught later. It's more difficult to break a habit than it is to aquire one.

"A wise man changes his mind. A fool never does".
J.A. Jance

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Edited by - Charley wild on 05/25/2009 08:18:30

Banjophobic - Posted - 05/25/2009:  09:20:57

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Im a big fan of cultivating great, solid timing. A metronome is still the best device, along with drum machines,programs,what have you, to get "metronomic timing" Does this mean that you always play like a 'robot' or 'machine gun', umm, no.
Lets clarify 'spaces ' here. Spaces are 'rests' which mean silence/near silence area in measures. This isnt the same thing as mixing durations of notes, like 8ths/16ths and dotted/grace notes. I think what Richard is referring too here is 'syncopation'. This is prevalent in most types of music and very seldom does an entire piece of music stay exactly in the dead center of the beat. But theres always a fine line between 'syncopation' and 'bounce' and playing "out of time". I hear players who have not developed good solid timing, and then use an easy out, by saying "Im sycopating". Ok, if you say so, but syncopation is usually logical and thought out, with the player choosing where in the beat to try it. Some may 'push' slightly, some may 'pull', or play on different strong/ weak beats,etc. But to be legitimate, its used with forethought and for musical reasons. Too many players attempt to synocopate and have never established metronomic timing. Why is that important? Well, you have to have a frame of reference, so that you can identify and hone in on the sycopation. Randomly pushing and pulling and dropping beats isn't 'bounce' or syncopation', its called "poor timing".
Once you've established that you have honed your skills of playing dead center of a beat, then you can more easliy identify a proper sycopation or bounce to use and that feels right to you. Dont knock playing dead in time folks. Its the basis for good timing .
The analogy to this could be , learning to drive between the lines and staying there, before you attempt to do any stunt driving and swerving. Chances are you'll have less wrecks and will develop good drivng habits.

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Edited by - Banjophobic on 05/25/2009 09:28:01

10gauge - Posted - 05/25/2009:  09:56:32

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I recently recorded Hot Corn Cold Corn and since I didn't notice this pause everyone is talking about, I must assume that I didn't play it.

Jonathan O''bug

Charley wild - Posted - 05/25/2009:  10:25:50

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Banjophobic, I don't disagree with your views completely by any means. I mentioned earlier that my use of a meternome has helped my playing. Of course a student has to work within a frame of reference. My point is that no one plays exactly like another. And while a student has to play with in a correct frame of reference (like all of us) I believe that developing the student's natural sense of time and timing can't be stressed too soon. I started it from lesson one. BUT I didn't expect them to sound like J.D. after two lessons!! Where I respectfully disagree with you is WHEN the student should begin to develop their own timing and begin to experiment with it (carefully monitered) not that they should or shouldn't.

"A wise man changes his mind. A fool never does".
J.A. Jance

Rich Weill - Posted - 05/25/2009:  10:30:16

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quote:

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Originally posted by Banjophobic

Lets clarify 'spaces ' here. Spaces are 'rests' which mean silence/near silence area in measures. This isnt the same thing as mixing durations of notes, like 8ths/16ths and dotted/grace notes. I think what Richard is referring too here is 'syncopation'.

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A rest is a rest. It's a pause in a roll -- the absence of a note. Spaces are how notes are spaced. The notes themselves have a similar duration. The rhythm comes from the spaces in-between the notes.

Bounce vs. straight time is a matter of taste. Some people, me included, like bounce; other apparently do not. Recently, I was listening to a recording of John Hartford playing "Lorena," and I was jarred by how evenly the notes were spaced. This was the one thing I didn't like about this performance of the song.

But I disagree with the idea that learning bounce should be a two-step process: first, learn straight time; second, learn bounce. For one, this makes the whole process much more difficult. You first have to develop a habit (one which my teacher would consider a very bad habit), and then try to break it. If you like playing with bounce, why not get that rhythm in your ear, your mind, and your fingers BEFORE conflicting habits set in. As soon as possible.

Plus, I suspect it's harder to play dead on straight time than to play with bounce -- so why learn the harder technique first if it's one you're not going to use? Straight time has no feel to it. It's passionless. Bounce has rhythm and feel. The feel of it makes it so much easier to maintain once you learn how to do it.

Personally, I find a direct correlation between tapping my foot and bounce. If I play without tapping my foot, my bounce is less reliable. When I tap my foot, however, the bounce sustains. I think it's because bounce is just a toe-tapping kind of rhythm, and doing the one reinforces doing the other.

Banjophobic - Posted - 05/25/2009:  10:57:47

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Well, lets put it this way. Ive heard far too many less experienced players who think they play with bounce and or syncopation who are actually just playing out of time or sloppily. Im not trying to be negative in these remarks, just making an observation. We could debate the merits of playing metronomic vs bounce, but in my mind, the two cannot be divided. One is ' lifeless ' without the other. So, to try and learn to bounce from the onset, without learning to play dead center, is strange in my mind. It would be like trying to identify poles on a magnet by dividing a magnet in half and seperating the two. every time to divide a magnet, you get two poles. Playing dead center and sycopating and or bouncing are inter- dependent in my view. But, to each his own, as they say. If you can learn to be consistant in your syncopations and know where they fall, from the beginning, thats great.

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Edited by - Banjophobic on 05/25/2009 11:12:00

Richard Dress - Posted - 05/25/2009:  11:14:06

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To avoid a lot of rehashing which is fun for some of us but daunting to others, I chose Earl who cannot be debated. And I chose something that took me 30 years of listening to hear. Once I heard it, it radically changed my picking for the better.

If you listen to HCCC about a thousand times and then focus on the kickoff, you might say wow, lookit Earl waiting just a tiny EXTRA part of a second and that is what gives life to the song. Or you might not. Maybe you are lucky enough to know it already or maybe you just don't care that much. But no matter what, there will be some BHO members who will go off and study the issue and perhaps get an epiphany. I hope so. Good luck.

PS: a lot has been said in the posts above that I find interesting--thanks

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Edited by - Richard Dress on 05/25/2009 11:17:10

steve davis - Posted - 05/25/2009:  11:22:44

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The space is dictated by the time value of the note preceding it.

Pool

Banjophobic - Posted - 05/25/2009:  11:23:48

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

To avoid a lot of rehashing which is fun for some of us but daunting to others, I chose Earl who cannot be debated. And I chose something that took me 30 years of listening to hear. Once I heard it, it radically changed my picking for the better.

If you listen to HCCC about a thousand times and then focus on the kickoff, you might say wow, lookit Earl waiting just a tiny EXTRA part of a second and that is what gives life to the song. Or you might not. Maybe you are lucky enough to know it already or maybe you just don't care that much. But no matter what, there will be some BHO members who will go off and study the issue and perhaps get an epiphany. I hope so. Good luck.

PS: a lot has been said in the posts above that I find interesting--thanks

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Richard

Earl was /is the man and theres no debating that, in my book. I was just seeing what everyones definition of 'spaces was'. Its always interesting to read the viewpoints.
One thing about Earls playing is his ability to stay in the pocket, like a piston. So, spaces/syncopations and playing top dead center-he has it all.

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Edited by - Banjophobic on 05/25/2009 11:26:53

Richard Dress - Posted - 05/25/2009:  11:28:33

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Thanks, Banjophobic, for contributing. You and Rich and Wes and Charley and the others are laying down some great points.

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Edited by - Richard Dress on 05/25/2009 11:31:55

Charley wild - Posted - 05/25/2009:  11:32:08

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I agree Richard, this is a good thread. I learn from this type of thread. I'm outspoken, but the one great thing I've learn at my advanced age is that the older I get the less I know for sure! I used to know everything for sure! lol!
PS I chose my signature saying carefully!

"A wise man changes his mind. A fool never does".
J.A. Jance

howsy-bee - Posted - 05/27/2009:  05:14:55

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quote:

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Well, lets put it this way. Ive heard far too many less experienced players who think they play with bounce and or syncopation who are actually just playing out of time or sloppily. Im not trying to be negative in these remarks, just making an observation. We could debate the merits of playing metronomic vs bounce, but in my mind, the two cannot be divided. One is ' lifeless ' without the other. So, to try and learn to bounce from the onset, without learning to play dead center, is strange in my mind. ...

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I tend to agree with Banjophobic on that one. The question here is what would happen if a player who learned to bounce from the start had to play a very fast tune such as Rawhide etc. where the bounce is physically impossible, or if he or she played a tune and gradually increased the speed. Would he or she be approaching dead center rhythm as the speed went up - that is, be able to do something he or she had never learned - or end up in a rhythmic mess? I can't speak from personal or somebody else's experience, but have my hunch...

Personally, I learned to play the bounce after at least 5 years of playing straight, when I became aware of the bounce by listening to players like Bill Keith and Alan Munde, and I remember that once I decided to learn it I played nothing but all possible rolls with the bounce for a whole week. At the end of the week I could play my whole repertoire with the bounce, except the really fast numbers, of course. I'm still glad I learned in that order. Playing with the bounce has enhanced my playing and the fun I have with it tremendously, and I can only read with mild bewilderment that the bounce is deemed old-fashioned.

Hans

Richard Dress - Posted - 05/27/2009:  06:51:36

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The faster you play, the less room there is for bounce, until at very fast speeds the bounce disappears.

Rich Weill - Posted - 05/27/2009:  09:42:39

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

The faster you play, the less room there is for bounce, until at very fast speeds the bounce disappears.

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I agree. If you play with bounce, you needn't do anything differently the faster you play. You can play exactly the same way. However, since the bounce is all about the spaces -- as the title of this thread says -- the faster you play, the shorter all the spaces become, and the less noticeable the bounce. At some point the bounce will become undetectable -- but because of the speed itself, not because you've used a different picking style.

Richard Dress - Posted - 05/27/2009:  09:55:39

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"the bounce will become undetectable -- but because of the speed itself, not because you've used a different picking style." - RW

I shoulda said that. Thanks.

steve davis - Posted - 05/27/2009:  10:09:01

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Seems like it would be interesting to speed up a recording of a song with bounce and see if the essence of the bounce is retained or lost.

Pool

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Edited by - steve davis on 05/27/2009 10:10:21

Richard Dress - Posted - 05/27/2009:  10:37:24

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For me the point is academic. I can't play fast enough these days to make the bounce disappear.

Charley wild - Posted - 05/27/2009:  10:45:21

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

For me the point is academic. I can't play fast enough these days to make the bounce disappear.

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You beat me to it, Richard! lol

"Marriage is somtimes a temporary thing but a good divorce can last forever"
Oscar Wilde

Banjocoltrane - Posted - 05/27/2009:  11:20:45

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I naturally play with a lot of bounce because my primary influence was Allen Shelton when growing up. It's still there unless I get in a hard driving jam with a bass player that is dead on it...
I can go back and forth between the two feels. I think it's a good skill to have. For me, it is a must as my altar ego is a jazz guitarist :)
When I was learning I didn't even know what "straight" or "bounce" was. All I did was sit around figuring out stuff by Shelton, Crowe, Earl, etc and it all got into my playing. I was never told what it was, how to do it, etc.
I just listened and listened and tried to recreate what I heard....where the accents where, where the notes were held seconds longer, etc. Somehow it got into my blood stream. I think that's the best way to learn it.
If you want to learn these nuances then you are gonna have to do some EXTENSIVE LISTENING. You can sit around all day and play along with a metronome and yeah that might help your timing, but it's not gonna instill in you the correct dynamics and overall Sound. Books, Videos, Tabs, etc aren't gonna do the trick either. Either you listen to the music continually and absorb it or you don't, you have to do the work.
We are talking about higher elements of music performance here.....it's not as simple as learning a new break, improvising a solo, watching the latest DVD, etc.
I've got some beginner students that get good dynamics/bounce from the beginning and I just let them go with it....Sometimes they'll play "Old Joe clark" with bounce and it'll be sounding really good and I'll complement them and tell them what they are doing that I like (they are never aware of it either). I don't stop them and say play straight if it's sounding good. I'm mostly concerned whether or not they are in time and if it sounds good. Songs can sound good with both time feels if played with the proper expression.

Online Banjo, Guitar, Mandolin, and Music Theory Lessons available:
http://www.jodyhughesmusic.com
My Music Blog
http://jodyhughesmusic.blogspot.com/

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Edited by - Banjocoltrane on 05/27/2009 17:04:41

Rich Weill - Posted - 05/27/2009:  11:43:55

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quote:

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Originally posted by Banjocoltrane

You can sit around all day and play along with a metronome and yeah that might help your timing, but it's not gonna instill in you the correct dynamics and overall Sound.

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That's pretty much what Sonny Osborne said in "Masters of the 5-String Banjo" -- the remarks I alluded to early in this thread.

Brian T - Posted - 05/27/2009:  13:42:46

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Here's the part I can't grasp:
With 4/4 time, the TIMTIMTM forward roll of 1/8th notes fills that measure.
If there's some encouragement to dampen the sustain, what is the length of time between notes?
Should I or could I imagine that there are some 1/16 rests in there?
What would be the real-time length of each of those notes as a result?

The flatpickers have a thread which may bear on this, too: CENS (Constant Eighth Notes Syndrome)

www.flatpickerhangout.com/fo...TOPIC_ID=8529

We do not know where we are going.
Nor do most of us care.
For us, it is enough that we are on our way.
Le Matelot

Mopick - Posted - 05/27/2009:  13:45:57

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The definition of syncopation: Earl Scruggs on the Carnegie Hall Live Album. Listen to Earl's version of Little Maggie on Carnegie Hall Live, then listen to Jimmy Martin's (Emerson) version. Wow, Earl was on another planet. He was in a groove.

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Edited by - Mopick on 05/27/2009 13:47:12

Rich Weill - Posted - 05/27/2009:  14:24:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brian T

Here's the part I can't grasp:
With 4/4 time, the TIMTIMTM forward roll of 1/8th notes fills that measure.
If there's some encouragement to dampen the sustain, what is the length of time between notes?
Should I or could I imagine that there are some 1/16 rests in there?
What would be the real-time length of each of those notes as a result?

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Brian, it sounds to me like you're trying too hard to analyze this intellectually. You have to hear it, and feel it -- not see it. That's why Bill Keith, Roger Sprung, and the late Paul Hawthorne all used an oral phrase -- "Chattanooga" -- to capture the sense of this rhythm, like this:

CHAT taNOO gaCHAT taNOO gaCHAT taNOO ...

Tap your foot on the "CHAT." Feel the swing. Notice that, after the first "CHAT," the notes all come in pairs with more stress placed on the second note of the pair. [Even when the note is the downbeat of a new measure (except the first), it is paired with an earlier note.]

Or take a look at this video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq5laLFfQcY It's a YouTube clip from the 2007 Washington Square bluegrass reunion. At the 4:10 mark, Roger Sprung (in his trademark homburg) plays a short break to "Wildwood Flower." His bounce is clear as a bell.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 05/27/2009:  14:37:48

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For me I can feel a song much better at a slower rate and add the expression at the slower rate so when I speed the song up to jam or performance speed I will understand the feeling of what i am doing and express it in time and with some bounce or whatever you want to call it. I enjoy playing the heck out of a tune really slow and feeling each note. One can't even absorb thought at 120 + beats a minute most of the time.

Banjo Wes
All things excellent are difficult as they are rare.

Spinoza

Richard Dress - Posted - 05/27/2009:  14:53:07

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Brian T,

You are looking in the wrong place. You are looking at the notes and their note values. Listen to HCCC as I recommend so you can understand what I mean about in between the notes.

Brian T - Posted - 05/27/2009:  16:50:28

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Watched the clip. Hard for me to agree that the piece was Wildwood Flower! However, the beat emphasis was there as you said. I think I can play 'Tom Dooley' (in the bho tab section) that way but little else.
Nickerson has a bunch of 2-bar roll exercises in his Encyclo. Today, for the first time, I tried to geteach roll going then shut my eyes and keep it going. Enough stumbling success to be encouraging.
It's like shaking hands with an octopus. One at a time.

I'll get the lurk outta here.

We do not know where we are going.
Nor do most of us care.
For us, it is enough that we are on our way.
Le Matelot

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 05/27/2009:  16:52:09

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I for one understand Richard... A few years ago we had an indepth discussion on this type of thing.. At that time there were several real Gurus chiming in and kicking it back and forth.. Wish that it had been made a sticky and I believe it was lost in some of the subsequent changes..

But the qist of it boiled down to, in plain language, Big time and little time.. That is say big time (major song notes (hooks,(the part you recognize as the song) falls on or approximates the beat. Little time, the notes (fill in, spaces) played between
can and should vary.. The example as Touched on previously here, is the difference in banjo pickers, Its what Makes Earl, Earl..! This is probably where the metronome players fall short.. and sound artificial.. that personal variance needs to be there..
The other biggy was where to play on the beat... Behind, in the middle or on top of the beat... It was agreed that most of the top Bluegrass Is played on top or just slightly AHEAD of the beat.. Again today, you will see far more in the middle beat pickers, to me this is responsible for that Draggy, mechanical playing that we hear and see so much..
True Bluegrass has the beat and feel that you can reach out and get a hold on, Its substantial... and I know of no artifical shortcut that can substitute! (hope this gives some insight, I think we're on the same page)

KL

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Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 05/27/2009 18:12:38

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 05/27/2009:  17:03:07

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dragonnail1

is there an H?

Mark

"got banjo"?

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In German there is. Their B is our Bflat. Our B (natural) they call "H" (pronounced "ha"), thus Bach could and di begin several pieces with his signature motif B A C H (Bflat, A, C Bnat.)

I''ll never play like Earl Scruggs or sing like Luciano Pavarotti, but I''ll pick better than Luciano and sing tenor better than Earl
deligo ergo renideo,
Bob Cameron

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 05/27/2009:  17:09:03

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress
[Snip Isnip

Some of you may be at the point where you want to shake off that 'oom pah pah' tuba that lives in your banjo.

snip

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Maybe in your banjo, but mine knows enough about tubas and especially German bands to know the tuba can play a heel of a lot more than just the "ooms" and that it's the trombone or trumpet that plays the "pah pah"

I''ll never play like Earl Scruggs or sing like Luciano Pavarotti, but I''ll pick better than Luciano and sing tenor better than Earl
deligo ergo renideo,
Bob Cameron

steve davis - Posted - 05/27/2009:  18:20:10

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A tuba player was our bass player in '88 at Rudyard Kiplings in Louisville.
He was one of the tubas in PDQ Bach's "Duelling Tubas".

Pool

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Edited by - steve davis on 05/27/2009 18:21:53

Richard Dress - Posted - 05/27/2009:  18:20:54

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But I like that metaphor, Bob. I'd be lost without it.

BeLikeSteve - Posted - 05/29/2009:  23:10:02

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Richard, after reading this thread tonight I focused on the spaces, not the notes, and I could hear the difference. Focusing on the spaces, the pauses, the timing between notes gave the music more drama - more flavor. Thanks everybody who pitched in on this thread.

Cornflake - Posted - 05/30/2009:  06:33:57

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Rich Weil stated: " Bill Evans and Ron Block both have posted on BHO at various times advocating that all notes be evenly spaced. Bounce has been deemed old-fashioned. It has been replaced by the altar of the metronome. [I recently read Sonny Osborne's comments on the metronome in "Masters of the 5-String Banjo." They weren't complimentary.]"

I find this comment interesting because in his video "Power Picking 3" Bill Evans plays everything with a bounce. Even when he plays a song slowly for the student, he plays it with a bounce. Not a huge bounce, but it's pretty obvious to my ears. In fact, that's the most important thing I took from the video.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It takes a village to tune a banjo

Arkansasbanjo - Posted - 05/30/2009:  06:42:06

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If you absolutely can't get the hang of spaces, take a few piano lessons (keyboards are cheap these days). Having a piano background really helps on timing.

Carolyn

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