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Oct 2, 2009 - 12:59:56 PM

openG

USA

54 posts since 7/1/2009

I have put the list on a Excel File. It you want let me know and this will help with searching and such.

Average is as close to the bottom as the top!

Oct 8, 2009 - 8:09:44 PM

6297 posts since 10/13/2007

Kemo Sabe,
Thanks for the great list and for the new ideas. I have a dumb question but I need to ask it. Are all the chord progessions similar only in the sequence the chords follow each other or are they also similiar in how long (how many measures) each chord lasts?
Thanks for helping me learn.
Ken Hydinger


Ken
Bloomington, Indiana

Oct 9, 2009 - 1:21:34 AM

1126 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by openG

I have put the list on a Excel File. It you want let me know and this will help with searching and such.

Average is as close to the bottom as the top!



Open G - that sounds like a great idea. It might help someone and if they want such a file I hope they will send you a note. Oftentimes I will search for a particular song right off the screen that is posted on page one of this thread - on my computer I just click on 'Edit' then click on ''Find on this page' then type in a word or title of the song and search that way.

Thanks for your idea. That sounds like a lot of work you have done.

Phil

"Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play." (Murphy Henry)

Oct 9, 2009 - 1:48:32 AM

1126 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

Kemo Sabe,
Thanks for the great list and for the new ideas. I have a dumb question but I need to ask it. Are all the chord progessions similar only in the sequence the chords follow each other or are they also similiar in how long (how many measures) each chord lasts?
Thanks for helping me learn.
Ken Hydinger


Ken
Bloomington, Indiana



Ken - that is a great question. The answer is 'No, this thread does not tell you how long the chord lasts (how many measures)'. I am going to be real blunt here - - Your ears will tell you when to change chords! For example, strum your banjo along and sing along to 'Skip To My Lou'..... it is a two chord song that goes from the I chord (G for example) to the V chord (which would be D in this case). If you don't change chords after the first line of "Lou, Lou, skip to my Lou" ..... it will not sound right. And like Murphy Henry says...'If it doesn't sound right, it's not right'. So, you change from the G on line one to D on line two. Then you go back to the G chord on line 3 - then you go back to the D chord on line 4 until the very last of line 4 where you switch back to the G chord on the word 'darling'..... on that word you 'resolve' back to the one chord which tells you what key you are playing in. The point here is to start with easy, easy stuff and start getting the idea of when to change chords.

Murphy Henry has some great DVD's to help you learn chord changes. In my early early ear training I discovered her guitar ear training DVD's for outstanding ear training exercises..... she played the guitar and I strummed my banjo and did some singalongs..... it worked for me.

Incidentally, there are a very few songs on page one of this thread where I do put the timing into the lists ..... but not on the simpler songs in the four groups.

You have asked a great question - when you start listening for the chord changes you are on the way to getting the real message of this thread.

Thanks for your question.

Phil

"Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play." (Murphy Henry)

Oct 9, 2009 - 6:11:36 AM

6297 posts since 10/13/2007


Phil,
Thanks for your explanation. So much of trying to learn the banjo has felt like groping in the dark and had been hit and miss. I am just learing to really use this web site. Information like you are giving makes me feel like I am getting direction and a path. Again thanks for your time and your sharing.
Ken


Ken
Bloomington, Indiana

Oct 11, 2009 - 7:36:32 AM

hendrid

USA

116 posts since 7/16/2007

Sort of on or off topic was reading the other day that in a two or three chord tune or song if the melody or notes or singing are going down in pitch you switch to a IV chord and if they are going up you switch to a V chord and you generally end the part in the key or I chord tho that is not cast in iron.

Was wondering if that is true for the minors II and VI chords. To the II going down and VI going up. Just asking. Are we ever going to win earing it. Still my primary thrust.

Don

Edited by - hendrid on 10/11/2009 07:39:33

Oct 11, 2009 - 9:08:53 AM

Brian T

Canada

18855 posts since 6/5/2008

I see tunes that I'd like to play, Country Fake Book for example, but they're written in keys which are really obscure for me.

Transcribe carefully with Final Notepad ($10.00 online). Play it with midi.
Next, back up in the software and select the key. One click and it's transposed to G or whatever else you like.
HINT: There may be a way to start on a fresh staff for chorus but I find it far simpler to write and name verse and chorus as two seperate files.

Then, I can play it and the I, IV, V sort of chord changes are easier for me to hear and anticipate.

We do not know where we are going.
Nor do most of us care.
For us, it is enough that we are on our way.
Le Matelot

Edited by - Brian T on 10/11/2009 09:10:24

Oct 13, 2009 - 2:10:07 PM

3584 posts since 4/5/2008

Oct 14, 2009 - 5:49:40 AM

9450 posts since 12/19/2008

quote:
I see tunes that I'd like to play, Country Fake Book for example, but they're written in keys which are really obscure for me.


I've always seen that as an opportunity to expand keys.
There are only 12 of them and if you play out of closed chord positions, it doesn't matter what key you play. All you might change is the 5th string.

One approach is to figure out where the chords are. Most fakebooks have Cripple Creek in Bb (which is what a sharp A sounds like to a pianist). If you don't know where your Bb chord is (use the one at the 8th fret), then now is a good time to figure it out. You find your Bb,Eb,F chords in that area and voila, the fingering is identical to G,C,D. You wouldn't want to play it there but you can find your chords and then move the whole pattern.

Option two, something I would expect an intermediate picker who wants to understand theory to be able to do is identify the I,IV,V chords in any key by name. This makes it easy to spot patterns when you are reading or following someone. In this manner, you identify that Eb,Ab and Bb are the 1-4-5 and then simply transpose in your head or write it above the sheet.

I try playing the song in the key it's written simply strumming chords. That's how I learned all my keys was from fakebooks. You won't learn them from banjo books.

Once you've found a nice chord configuration (use the different shapes until you find ones that sound good), it might be easier to pick than you expect.

If not, then it's not too hard to move the whole pattern up or down a few frets to a more natural banjo key. Doing this is extremely difficult for the first few songs, but it gets easier surprisingly fast. If you do this on 10 or 20 songs, it will become almost automatic.

Mike Moxcey
moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

Oct 30, 2009 - 7:04:13 AM

308 posts since 5/14/2007

Phil,

I was just looking at your "Chords" thread , topic: Two Chords songs.

I play bass for a group on Tuesday night, and one individual sings "Waltz across Texas", and "Jambalya" pretty regular. It never dawned on me that they were only two chord songs! I never even thought about it, and now I'm chuckling to myself. I need to pay more attention!

Oct 31, 2009 - 7:12:34 PM

1126 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by Greg Connor

Phil,

I was just looking at your "Chords" thread , topic: Two Chords songs.

I play bass for a group on Tuesday night, and one individual sings "Waltz across Texas", and "Jambalya" pretty regular. It never dawned on me that they were only two chord songs! I never even thought about it, and now I'm chuckling to myself. I need to pay more attention!



Greg,

That is a very interesting comment - it highlights the vast differences you and I have in this music world. For me, I seek out the chord structure even before I seek out the key of the song. Many times I am confident of the chord structure as soon as the song is named and I know I can handle the song pretty well in a jam if I know the chord progression ...then all I need to know is the key and I feel fairly within my comfort zone to get on with the song. I am a guy that never touched a musical instrument until after retirement and did not know what a chord was until maybe a year after I was playing Cripple Creek and a few other songs on the banjo. To learn about two chord songs, I IV I V I songs, I V I IV I V I songs, I IV I IV I V I songs and I IV V I songs has been a lot of fun for me and a tremendous learning tool to organize this stuff in my head and to practice playing songs. I have discovered that hundreds of songs fit into one of these 5 groups and that many other songs are similar to these progressions. So, my inclination is to quickly determine if the song about to be 'jammed' is in one of these groups and go for it. Nailing the chord progression (in my mind) before starting the song has taken a lot of the mystery (and fear ) out of the process. I have noticed that with experience and good practice time I have less and less inclination to think in terms of these 5 groups - but, that was my plan all along. My guess is that for musically talented folks like yourself ...oh yeah! ..I have listened to many of your songs and I know you write the songs, play the bass, the guitar, the banjo, the harmonica, the flute ...and more... it doesn't enter the equation that 'Jambalaya' is a two chord song because you just already know how it is supposed to sound and you make it happen - second nature stuff. The more that I listen to the songs and play the songs - I realize that I am gaining the ear training and the 'second nature' stuff is coming along.

I am a lot like the kindergarten kid that is going through the A, B, C stuff. As time moves along and I gain experience - as I get down the road about a mile or two - things like chord progressions, the beautiful sound and placement of minor chords, etc. are getting more natural - I am having fun 'getting it'. One of the big things for me in 'getting it' has been to know that I know the chord progressions.

I really appreciate your post!

Phil





"Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play." (Murphy Henry)

Edited by - Kemo Sabe on 11/01/2009 05:55:51

Nov 1, 2009 - 8:27:11 AM

9450 posts since 12/19/2008

Next step is to put all the 1-4-1-5 and 1-5-4 and 1-4-1-4-1-4-1-5 Jimmy Buffet type chord progressions into a single chord progression in your mind: 1-4-5 songs.

The fastest way to do that is strum/pluck your way through a lot of songs so you see how it works in songs, not in theory. Don't learn leads or breaks or even melody. Just play the chords to 100 (2 weeks) or 1000 (3 months) different songs out of as many songbooks as possible.

I recognize 4 major chord progressions.

1-4-5 which includes any progression that only uses these chords as well as their related minors which means a song like Michael Row the Boat Ashore is still a 1-4-5 song even though it uses Em and Am and Bm (in the key of G). Doing this relative minor thing with major chords is one of the keys to improv. I like thinking 1-4-5 because if I hear a chord change and it isn't minor, then I only have two choices.

The next common progression is the 2-5. This doesn't mean the song just uses those chords, it means that in addition to the 1-4-5 chords, it uses the 2 chord and it almost always is followed by the 5 chord.

The extension of this is what I call ragtime progression or the circle of fifths (even though 1-4-5 and 2-5 are also on the circle). This is the one that works for Don't Let Your Deal Go Down, Salty Dog, Five Foot Two and many others. Jump ahead 3 or 4 notches and work your way back. C E A D G C is Five Foot Two. Notice if you start that same progression with G instead of C, you get Salty Dog.

The final progression is the 1-3-4 (G-B-C or D-F#-G) found in Pallet On Your Floor, Tennessee Waltz and the Eagle's Take It to the Limit.

By parsing the actual chord progressions into categories, it makes it easier for me to recognize more patterns without having to do a lot of memorization.

Start with the 1-4-5 memorization scheme for any typical song and then when you are at a jam, all you have to do is ask what the weird chord is and it will be the 2 or the 3 or a minor chord.

This approach is similar for minor key songs. For modal tunes, I go counterclockwise on the circle of fifths.

Mike Moxcey
moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

Nov 1, 2009 - 9:58 AM

shaneo

USA

61 posts since 12/30/2004

Phil, others -

I cleaned up Kemo Sabe's original post and placed the web page here:

docs.google.com/View?id=ddgpbb...6d3xnkbfg

I think it's a little easier to read and navigate this way. I also added a Nashville Numbers "cheat sheet" at the top. Here's hoping it's of use...

If there's general consensus that this is a better way to maintain this information, I'm happy to share edit privileges with Phil to share appropriately.

Shane O.

=========
Shane O.
shaneo.com/
=====================
- 2005 Huber Kalamazoo
- 2003 Fender FB-54
- 1990s Fawley/Cox parts banjo
- 1980s Fender Leo
- 1970s Gibson RB-250
- 1970s Aria Pro (Kasuga)
===========================

Nov 1, 2009 - 8:46:53 PM

1126 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike

......The fastest way to do that is strum/pluck your way through a lot of songs so you see how it works in songs, not in theory. Don't learn leads or breaks or even melody. Just play the chords to 100 (2 weeks) or 1000 (3 months) different songs out of as many songbooks as possible.
.......
Mike Moxcey
moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html



Mike,

You have a lot of good ideas in your post. Re: reviewing the chords / songs ... with strums... I do that quite a bit. To me, it is an easy way to quickly discover and review the chords to a great many songs in a short period of time. Sometimes I like to strum the chords at low neck, mid neck and high on the neck ..... so while discovering the chord structure of the song I am also reviewing the patterns at different places on the neck.

Thanks for your post.

Phil

"Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play" (Murphy Henry)

Nov 14, 2009 - 5:55:50 PM

kcjc69

USA

12725 posts since 3/6/2006

Thanks for the renewing this thread. After three years of playing I've found this post one of the most helpful of any I've seen. Sure wish I would have seen the original.

.

Faith, Family, Football and picking the banjo could life be any better?

Want a quality built banjo or individual instruction? bennettsmusicstudio.com
Need a website for your band? designsbydorothy.com/

Nov 15, 2009 - 11:46:04 PM

1126 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by kcjc69

Thanks for the renewing this thread. After three years of playing I've found this post one of the most helpful of any I've seen. Sure wish I would have seen the original.

.

Faith, Family, Football and picking the banjo could life be any better?

Want a quality built banjo or individual instruction? bennettsmusicstudio.com
Need a website for your band? designsbydorothy.com/




Thanks for your comments. I am always glad to see that other folks are learning from this thread. It has been a fun learning tool for me.

Phil


"Listen, listen, listen and play, play, play." (Murphy Henry)

Dec 16, 2009 - 11:01:31 AM

144 posts since 12/12/2009

Thanks a million ... how handy!

Dec 17, 2009 - 2:03:56 PM

1126 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by Deering_Dude

Thanks a million ... how handy!




You are welcome!

Dec 22, 2009 - 10:32:19 AM

21 posts since 11/27/2007

Thanks KemoSabe for this list and thanks to shaneo for re-posting it. This will be great to keep in the case for jams (whatt are we going to play next?) I already know about 75% of these tunes (after a fashion) but never had them all listed in one place. Thanks again, Paul

Dec 22, 2009 - 10:32:20 AM

21 posts since 11/27/2007

Thanks KemoSabe for this list and thanks to shaneo for re-posting it. This will be great to keep in the case for jams (whatt are we going to play next?) I already know about 75% of these tunes (after a fashion) but never had them all listed in one place. Thanks again, Paul

Dec 29, 2009 - 10:35:29 AM

spaz

USA

403 posts since 4/26/2007

Hi, this is a great thread.. I always find myself coming back to review. Where would 'i know you're married but i love you still' fit in? It seems its basically a 2 chord (I, V) song but with a II thrown in for a couple beats...

Dec 29, 2009 - 10:59:09 AM

1126 posts since 7/15/2003

spaz,

You are exactly right from what I see and hear on 'I Know You're Married But I Love You Still'. It has two primary chords (I & V) but the verse also has a II chord:

Verse: I II V I V I
Chorus: I V I

I have noticed (and had long discussions in another thread) that very often in this music a II chord is followed by the V chord. It is an interesting thread - with other nice little observations about chords, etc. The point on that thread was real simple: When you play the II chord ....get ready for the V chord in many, many instances. Someone in the thread pointed out that the II Chord resolves to the V chord.... it's more fun playing it than discussing the theroy.

Here is that thread if you want to take a look: banjohangout.org/topic/165916

Thanks for your post. I'm glad you come back to review this thread - I do it too my friend.

Phil

Edited by - Kemo Sabe on 12/29/2009 11:07:04

Dec 30, 2009 - 12:44:15 PM

258 posts since 2/16/2006

Kemo Sabe this may be a little off topic but I've seen you post about BIAB and I have had a thought (I know that is scary). I was thinking that it would be nice to have a library of BIAB files with all the songs you have in your list here. Maybe it could be similiar to the tablature section. It takes me a long time to make my own files especially if I don't know the song very well. I know there are several available to download from I believe Eric but there are many more that could be done by knowledge members here.
Just a thought,
Ken

Dec 31, 2009 - 12:28:39 AM

1126 posts since 7/15/2003

quote:
Originally posted by BanjerKen

Kemo Sabe this may be a little off topic but I've seen you post about BIAB and I have had a thought (I know that is scary). I was thinking that it would be nice to have a library of BIAB files with all the songs you have in your list here. Maybe it could be similiar to the tablature section. It takes me a long time to make my own files especially if I don't know the song very well. I know there are several available to download from I believe Eric but there are many more that could be done by knowledge members here.
Just a thought,
Ken


Ken

You have made a very interesting post about BIAB files. In a large way your post is not off topic - because BIAB to me is all about chord progressions and this thread I have been working for quite a while is also about chord progressions. I use BIAB often - sometimes every day. I have made many posts over a period of time about using BIAB - I think it is an incredible tool for learning about music structure and in practicing songs from back-up and for lead breaks. But, one of the beautiful things about BIAB is the LEARNING PROCESS of putting the songs together - sometimes it is a bit painful but the outcome is rewarding because you learn the chord structure, timing, etc. of the songs. In the beginning (using BIAB) it took me a lot of time and was very frustrating to piece together the chord structure for even simple songs. As time went on and I got more familiar with chords, BIAB, timing, song structures, etc. I got to where I could piece together a song with BIAB in a few minutes, punch in the name of the song, set or reset the tempo, choose a key I wanted to play (and or sing) the song in, save it to my hard drive and then practice the song with my banjo backup, banjo lead breaks, singing, recording, playback, etc. One thing I would suggest to you about this process is that you 'gotta know the song' - the melody, the timing, the chords, etc to set it up. Listen to the song until you KNOW the melody and timing, etc. Now, with BIAB, there are hundreds of Real Tracks - REAL music tracks (Bluegrass instruments played by biggies like Scott Vestal and others) and I play along with my banjo like I am part of the band. As you go through this process it gets easier and easier and you get more and more confident in your use of BIAB, your understanding of the chords and measures of a song, your ability to change tempos with BIAB to your satisfaction, change keys, etc. It gets to where it just is not a big deal to start punching the keys and LISTENING to what you have put together. This might sound a little silly but if you have ever played football - you know you can't get somebody to run your wind sprints for you - it just doesn't accomplish anything. Getting somebody to set up the BIAB files would be the same - you gotta do it yourself. This is my take on the thing. Other folks may not feel the same way. I think you have already made the first steps in creating some tracks with BIAB and that is great. If you continue with the process it will get easier and easier. Here is a little hint about BIAB that took me a while to catch: If a song has a measure that is split with two chords in the measure - you enter both chords into the measure with a comma between the chords, for example if there is a G and a C chord in the same measure you enter: G,C - little hints like that will help you get the correct timing on songs. Start with very easy songs - two chord songs are a great way to start. You will soon realize that more complicated songs....think Black Berry Blossom for example, are very easy once you know the process including the chord progression. You have to ride that BIAB learning curve until you break that ole horsie in - it's worth the ride.

I hope these ideas help you. Thanks for your post.

Phil

Dec 31, 2009 - 7:00:47 PM

258 posts since 2/16/2006

Phil I appreciate the useful thoughts you posted above on BIAB. I know I should spend more time learning how to make it work for me.

As you said it helps to know the song really well before you try to enter it and I guess that is why I wish there were more songs already formatted. I have been listening to bluegrass for almost four years now but I still don't know that many songs so when I hear one I want to learn or to be able to play backup to in a jam I like to take my guitar and play rhythm along with BIAB until I get the chord progression memorized and can play in time with it. So I guess this the other side of the coin where you use it to learn songs you don't know.
Ken

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