In plain speech the tone of voice can indicate agreement, question, enquiry, amusement, humour, self deprecation, sarcasm, wonder, the seeking of affirmation or correction and a lot more besides. :)

Joel and I spoke to each other and it was gentle and fun. Jack

I love a happy ending.

Geez, I dunno ... [with some help from Google AI] I figured clawhammer was really about:

(b) Brush downwards across all the strings with the same finger you used to make the initial strike.  The thumb comes to rest on the fifth string as you complete the strum.

(c) As the hand comes up, the thumb sounds the fifth string.

.... I'll find my own way out.   

Excellent research Owen, but let's not forget that drop thumb on the 2nd and sometimes the 3rd string is executed in the Clawhammer style. I've been playing Clawhammer since I was a young boy and that's a few weeks ago......Jack

To return to the question that the OP raises…

It’s noticeable that so far the cultural sausage-machine that were the several 20th century folk revivals have not been mentioned. No consideration of our modern understanding of the music we play (including clawhammer technique) can be coherent without addressing the driving influence of this major cultural movement. In a similar way that an understanding of modern ITM is really meaningless without reference to the late 19th and early 20th century input of the Gaelic League (Conradh na Gaeilge). The culture we inherit is shaped. And we further interpret and shape that inheritance in our turn.

It has been discussed how old the term "clawhammer" is.  It seems that the term clawhammer is relatively new, and has been commonly used only from the late 60's, but it may have been used locally before that.

• In the 1800's the term "banjo style" and "stroke style" was used.
• In his "Introduction to Styles in Old-Time Music" (The New Lost City Ramblers Songbook. 1964. Oak Publications.), John COHEN wrote:
  "In the oldest technique, the picking is done entirely with a downward motion of the hand and fingers. The strings are struck with the back of the fingernail, rather than plucked up. There is no consistent name for this; it is variously called frailing , claw-hammer (C. Ashley), clubbing (Roscoe Holcomb), rapping (Hobart Smith), flailing, thrashing, knock-down, drop-thumb, and downpicking."
• Pete Seeger did not mention clawhammer in his book (I have the red version revised 1962). He prefers the term "frailing".
• John Burke uses "Clawhammer" in his book Old Time Fiddle Tunes for Banjo (1968).
• Art Rosenbaum mention clawhammer in his first book Old-Time Mountain Banjo (1968), but he used "down-picking" as the primary . He writes "There is a great family of down-picking styles in the South  known variously as knocking, knock-down, drop-thumb, beating, rapping, clawhammer, flyin' hand, framming, or frailing."
• In the Folkways Album from 1972 Uncle Wade - A Memorial To Wade Ward: Old Time Virginia Banjo Picker, 1892-1971 , Wade Ward's niece Katie Hill uses "clawhammer" to describe Wade Ward's playing. Even if the recording is from 1972, the term clawhammer was probably in use locally a lot earlier (he was from Independance, Virginia). I don't think Katie Hill began to use a new word to describe the old music.
• Ralph Stanley also refers his OT playing to clawhammer (but he also use clawhammer for up-picking  when the hand forms a claw). He probably used the same term since he was young. He was from McClure, Virginia.
• In the Book Round Peak Style - Clawhammer banjo from 1999, Brad Leftwich use the term clawhammer . In the Introduction he mentioned that the local style in Round Peak was called double-noting, but he also said that an older style was called framming.

By the way, the tool clawhammer was used already in the 1600’s.By the way, the tool clawhammer was used already in the 1600’s.

Typically there is a desire
(often exclusive and competitive) for a fixed reference point that is termed and claimed as ‘authenticity’. This is, in reality, the equivalent of hunting unicorns.

The focus of most research is really a study and analysis of the complex weave of these influencing factors that shaped activity, behaviours and culture.
The collective evidence of that evolving tapestry, viewed at any given date, provides us an informed snapshot of what and why. And also proof of how that was a process of continual change subject to varying rapidity and intensity over time.

Jan,

Thank you for a  very lucid explation of the various terms used for that noisey beast called the Banjar...Jack    p.s. I at one time owned both the red and blue version of Pete Seegers little books and gave them away to students who were so desperate for them....j

s

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Originally posted by janolov

It has been discussed how old the term "clawhammer" is.  It seems that the term clawhammer is relatively new, and has been commonly used only from the late 60's, but it may have been used locally before that.

• In the 1800's the term "banjo style" and "stroke style" was used.
• In his "Introduction to Styles in Old-Time Music" (The New Lost City Ramblers Songbook. 1964. Oak Publications.), John COHEN wrote:
  "In the oldest technique, the picking is done entirely with a downward motion of the hand and fingers. The strings are struck with the back of the fingernail, rather than plucked up. There is no consistent name for this; it is variously called frailing , claw-hammer (C. Ashley), clubbing (Roscoe Holcomb), rapping (Hobart Smith), flailing, thrashing, knock-down, drop-thumb, and downpicking."
• Pete Seeger did not mention clawhammer in his book (I have the red version revised 1962). He prefers the term "frailing".
• John Burke uses "Clawhammer" in his book Old Time Fiddle Tunes for Banjo (1968).
• Art Rosenbaum mention clawhammer in his first book Old-Time Mountain Banjo (1968), but he used "down-picking" as the primary . He writes "There is a great family of down-picking styles in the South  known variously as knocking, knock-down, drop-thumb, beating, rapping, clawhammer, flyin' hand, framming, or frailing."
• In the Folkways Album from 1972 Uncle Wade - A Memorial To Wade Ward: Old Time Virginia Banjo Picker, 1892-1971 , Wade Ward's niece Katie Hill uses "clawhammer" to describe Wade Ward's playing. Even if the recording is from 1972, the term clawhammer was probably in use locally a lot earlier (he was from Independance, Virginia). I don't think Katie Hill began to use a new word to describe the old music.
• Ralph Stanley also refers his OT playing to clawhammer (but he also use clawhammer for up-picking  when the hand forms a claw). He probably used the same term since he was young. He was from McClure, Virginia.
• In the Book Round Peak Style - Clawhammer banjo from 1999, Brad Leftwich use the term clawhammer . In the Introduction he mentioned that the local style in Round Peak was called double-noting, but he also said that an older style was called framming.

By the way, the tool clawhammer was used already in the 1600’s.By the way, the tool clawhammer was used already in the 1600’s.

 

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quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

Virginia Banjo Picker, 1892-1971 , Wade Ward's niece Katie Hill uses "clawhammer" to describe Wade Ward's playing. Even if the recording is from 1972, the term clawhammer was probably in use locally a lot earlier (he was from Independance, Virginia). I don't think Katie Hill began to use a new word to describe the old music.

 

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It is very common to alter language so that your audience understands what you mean. 

This Generational Code-Switching, Audience Adaptation / Accommodation, or Linguistic Bridging is just how communication works.  It is very possible that Katie Hill DID use a modern word to describe old music.  This is a common thing to do.

This is not proof either way.  And while it is some evidence to take into consideration (and not dismissed), it is really only evidence of "clawhammer" being used at the time the interview was being conducted. 

Pete Seeter DID mention "clawhamer" in his second edition.  One needs to be careful with reference to Seeger's book as with each reprint he made changes that are not always clear.  I do not have access to the first edition mimeograph.  But I do have access to the third printing of the second edition.  On page 22, "Three Finger Picking or Clawhammer Style" is very clear in definition.  This was published in 1962 and aligns with what I wrote previously.

https://archive.org/details/how-to-play-the-5-string-banjo-pete-seeger/page/22/mode/1up

banjohangout.org/forum/attachm...ID=321799

?

Hi Joel,

I remember talking with Pete many times at Izzy Young's Folklore Center. Pete was always very talkative and preaching his Political Gospel to all who would listen. He was a lot of fun and invited many of us Folkies to his Home Upstate NY and had us all sit on a great lawn while He brought Graph after Graph of his writings. Toshi was always a delight...I remember playing a Chet Atkins song for Pete and He smiled and said "Nice"

My Father met Pete when He briefly attended Harvard University but left or was dismissed;  not sure which....Anyway Joel thanks so much....I gave away both my little Red book and Blue book that Pete had printed for a low price back in the late 60s....Jack   p.s. Students couldn't afford them in 80s HA.....

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

Virginia Banjo Picker, 1892-1971 , Wade Ward's niece Katie Hill uses "clawhammer" to describe Wade Ward's playing. Even if the recording is from 1972, the term clawhammer was probably in use locally a lot earlier (he was from Independance, Virginia). I don't think Katie Hill began to use a new word to describe the old music.

 

---

It is very common to alter language so that your audience understands what you mean. 

This Generational Code-Switching, Audience Adaptation / Accommodation, or Linguistic Bridging is just how communication works.  It is very possible that Katie Hill DID use a modern word to describe old music.  This is a common thing to do.

This is not proof either way.  And while it is some evidence to take into consideration (and not dismissed), it is really only evidence of "clawhammer" being used at the time the interview was being conducted. 

Pete Seeter DID mention "clawhamer" in his second edition.  One needs to be careful with reference to Seeger's book as with each reprint he made changes that are not always clear.  I do not have access to the first edition mimeograph.  But I do have access to the third printing of the second edition.  On page 22, "Three Finger Picking or Clawhammer Style" is very clear in definition.  This was published in 1962 and aligns with what I wrote previously.

https://archive.org/details/how-to-play-the-5-string-banjo-pete-seeger/page/22/mode/1up

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quote:

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Originally posted by jethrobodine

banjohangout.org/forum/attachm...ID=321799

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I can go along with ^^ Jethro, but otoh, if my abilities/interests/accomplishments set the standard, 'twould be a  v-e-r-y  sad state of affairs!  

Link is not active...J

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

My general problem with “clawhammer” as it currently exists is the ridged and fixed “bum ditty” pattern which things must be forced to fit in or around. A recent post even has a guy teaching phantom strikes where you continue the pattern but just don’t strike strings.

Why not just play the notes needed? Why the constant repetition of “bum ditty”?

Where is the economy of motion?

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There is a reason why rhythm guitarists strum:

down [rest] down up [rest] up down [rest]

and not:

down [rest] up down [rest] up down [rest]

Personally, I would love to see more clawhammer players break out of that strict index-thumb-index-thumb alternation (i.e., occasionally using the thumb on the beat)...but true stroke style in an OT context would disrupt the banjo's (expected) role as a "rhythm" instrument that consistently subdivides the beat. 

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoboyd

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

My general problem with “clawhammer” as it currently exists is the ridged and fixed “bum ditty” pattern which things must be forced to fit in or around. A recent post even has a guy teaching phantom strikes where you continue the pattern but just don’t strike strings.

Why not just play the notes needed? Why the constant repetition of “bum ditty”?

Where is the economy of motion?

---

There is a reason why rhythm guitarists strum:

down [rest] down up [rest] up down [rest]

and not:

down [rest] up down [rest] up down [rest]

Personally, I would love to see more clawhammer players break out of that strict index-thumb-index-thumb alternation (i.e., occasionally using the thumb on the beat)...but true stroke style in an OT context would disrupt the banjo's (expected) role as a "rhythm" instrument that consistently subdivides the beat. 

---

I am usually reluctant to recommend Converse's system for banjo style as by the time it is introduced one is over half way through his method. 

But for your benefit I offer the following: 
https://archive.org/details/frank-b-converses-analytical-banjo-method/page/90/mode/1up

Pages 90-94 Offer a series of "Combination Movements", "Hammer Movements" and exercises with cover any right hand patten one could come up with.

These are not rhythm based (like jazz strum patterns that you describe) but basically "rolls" for banjo style.  There is text (refrenced next to "The Banjo Style") that goes with this.

Joel,
Thanks for all of your incredible research and writing. Banjo simply evolves and gives us Clawhammer and all of its variations....Jack  I kinda like it and as in many of my Clawhammer tabs, you can definitely hear a strong melody....

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

It has been discussed how old the term "clawhammer" is.  It seems that the term clawhammer is relatively new, and has been commonly used only from the late 60's, but it may have been used locally before that.

• In the 1800's the term "banjo style" and "stroke style" was used.
• In his "Introduction to Styles in Old-Time Music" (The New Lost City Ramblers Songbook. 1964. Oak Publications.), John COHEN wrote:
  "In the oldest technique, the picking is done entirely with a downward motion of the hand and fingers. The strings are struck with the back of the fingernail, rather than plucked up. There is no consistent name for this; it is variously called frailing , claw-hammer (C. Ashley), clubbing (Roscoe Holcomb), rapping (Hobart Smith), flailing, thrashing, knock-down, drop-thumb, and downpicking."
• Pete Seeger did not mention clawhammer in his book (I have the red version revised 1962). He prefers the term "frailing".
• John Burke uses "Clawhammer" in his book Old Time Fiddle Tunes for Banjo (1968).
• Art Rosenbaum mention clawhammer in his first book Old-Time Mountain Banjo (1968), but he used "down-picking" as the primary . He writes "There is a great family of down-picking styles in the South  known variously as knocking, knock-down, drop-thumb, beating, rapping, clawhammer, flyin' hand, framming, or frailing."
• In the Folkways Album from 1972 Uncle Wade - A Memorial To Wade Ward: Old Time Virginia Banjo Picker, 1892-1971 , Wade Ward's niece Katie Hill uses "clawhammer" to describe Wade Ward's playing. Even if the recording is from 1972, the term clawhammer was probably in use locally a lot earlier (he was from Independance, Virginia). I don't think Katie Hill began to use a new word to describe the old music.
• Ralph Stanley also refers his OT playing to clawhammer (but he also use clawhammer for up-picking  when the hand forms a claw). He probably used the same term since he was young. He was from McClure, Virginia.
• In the Book Round Peak Style - Clawhammer banjo from 1999, Brad Leftwich use the term clawhammer . In the Introduction he mentioned that the local style in Round Peak was called double-noting, but he also said that an older style was called framming.

By the way, the tool clawhammer was used already in the 1600’s.By the way, the tool clawhammer was used already in the 1600’s.

 

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It's worth adding that in the liner notes for the album Clawhammer Banjo on County Records from 1965, Charlie Faurot, who recorded it, says “In clawhammer banjo–the term all the musicians here used to describe their style of playing…”. The players, born around the turn of the century, were from Independence and Galax, VA and Low Gap, NC.

EEB posted---" Like it or not, this contrived historical insularity - presented as if representative of fingerstyle/guitarstyle as a technique - functions, incorrectly, to frame the technique as an obsolescent form or relic. That the technique lacks the contemporary parity of a sign-posted space on the hangout is directly symptomatic of that distorting effect on public consciousness. If in any doubt, scroll back and read Bill's previous post for a 'from the horse's mouth' example of this confused, distorting effect.----Platitudes simply don't stand up faced with a manifest and describable culture of ignorance."

I will admit my ignorance. I have not heard any fingerstyle banjo played outside of a historical presentation, and if I did then I didn't recognize what I was hearing. The most complex playing I have heard has been from Jens Kruger or Bela Fleck, and that sounds to these ignorant ears as if they came from a Bluegrass background. So perhaps enlighten us with a link to fingerstyle banjo playing contemporary music? Can you demonstrate why a modern player would be drawn to this? Because, as I stated in my ignorance, I believe that most banjo players begin on their musical path because they heard something that lit them up. I would like to hear some of this Fingerstyle playing that would tend to light a fire in someone to say "I wanna do that, I'm going to learn how to make that sound." Can you provide us some examples? Or are you going to just leave us in this manifest and describable culture of ignorance?

quote:

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Originally posted by banjo bill-e

So perhaps enlighten us with a link to fingerstyle banjo playing contemporary music? 

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We were discussing Laurence's fine playing of his original composition a few days ago:

https://www.banjohangout.org/topic/409975
 

And we get, from the composer and player-----"This is by no means a classic banjo piece, yet it hints at similar music from that era."

So I'm among the unwashed masses for associating Fingerstyle with Classic Banjo, yet the only example you post is in the style of Classic Banjo?

quote:

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Originally posted by banjo bill-e

And we get, from the composer and player-----"This is by no means a classic banjo piece, yet it hints at similar music from that era."

So I'm among the unwashed masses for associating Fingerstyle with Classic Banjo, yet the only example you post is in the style of Classic Banjo?

---

Read Laurence's first, main clause again. 
Some Beatles composition hinted at Bach or Indian music. Yet they were entirely contemporary and innovative. Most music 'hints' or more accurately - is influenced by - other styles.

The simple, unavoidable distinction is that the voice of historical finger-style compositions are naturally contained in the forms of their time: polkas, schottishes, waltzes, marches, cake-walks, breakdowns, caprices, reveries. Within these forms the themes are also of their time. Whereas finger-style itself is a technique, and is not stylistically tied to historic forms. In some cases a form may be borrowed e.g. a composition can be written as a reverie. I've done exactly that myself; the chordal structure and tonal colour is quite different to say Carl Hind's Reverie in C written in the 1890's. Composed In 2024 It would be bizarre if it weren't. That composition would be a modern interpretation; of which there are countless examples in contemporary music.

What I think you are confusing is changeable form with the intrinsic  sound of fingerstyle. It is always going to be bare fingers on strings. Sound range will inevitably 'hint' if that's what a person is looking to extract from it. 
There are far fewer banjoists playing finger-style today. That just lowers visibility in a crowded world. It says nothing about what those finger-style banjoists are doing.

Hop over to the 'other styles' section where there is active discussion of different aspects of fingerstyle. You might learn something.

So the technique is out of favor today because the music associated with that technique is something that few want to hear today. So what's the point? Why master a difficult technique if it does not produce a desirable result? My interest is musical rather than historical.