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Originally posted by Old Hickory

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin
. . . I've edited a number of tab collections, at least two of which were prepared by banjo players (whom I won't name here) who could play rings around ANY of us. They both represented their notes (pitches) accurately, but in some places the timing was WAY off--and these were top-level musicians!

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I know who one is, because I have their book and saw your name!

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The self-published one, or the one put out by Acutab? (Two different players--and I'm not referring to Randy Barrett's recent collaboration with Ben Eldridge, BTW.)

There’s a kind of swing to playing straight eighths if you emphasize certain notes in the rolls. Here’s Jason Burleson kicking off “In the Gravel Yard” ….. (I haven’t slowed it down to deep-dive analyze it, but I think he’s playing straight eighths)

youtu.be/UjBdwlKRcFo?si=DtM0N2988wy9eEt6

I want to back up a few steps and clarify something.

I believe that when Chuck commented -- and I agreed -- that accuracy of the OP's  tab-reading was a likely reason for his playing to be out-of-time and his timing to be awful (his own words) we did not (and I still do not) believe he was describing a difference between straight and swing eighths.

Straight and swing or paired eighths have a different feel that comes from what happens between the counted beats. That is: even in swing rhythm, 1 - 2 - 3 - 4  happen at their expected times.  The important and subtle difference is on the "and"s in between the counted beats. Do they happen exactly in the middle of the space (straight eighths) or slightly delayed (swing).

Hitting the "and"s differently is going to make the music feel different, but not with a sense that it's out of time.  I think being "in time" or not is matter of hitting the beats. Of keeping up. If the OP were hitting his counted beats -- or at least 1 and 3 -- where they belonged, his timing would not be so awful. I have jammed with a "rhythm" guitarist whose rhythm was loose, whose counting of 1,2,3,4 was unreliable, and whose "1" came at unpredictable times. That's what "out of time" means to me.

The type of problem the OP described strikes me (and I assume Chuck) as coming from not recognizing the difference between quarter and eighth notes (assuming 4/4) and so not recognizing when a note gets a full beat or a half of the written beat. I've seen this plenty in the videos of beginners. Especially on some thumb-pinch pairs that should be quarter notes (full beat) but instead get rushed. It also shows itself in beginners misplaying eighth note slides or hammers that are supposed to be two separately counted notes. 

None of this relates to the difference between straight and swing. Again: Even in swing, the numbered counts fall where you expect them to. A player whose notes are not on the beat is either failing to keep up, or is misreading the music, or a combination of the both.

Learning to recognize and count quarter, eighth and sixteenth notes is a good first step to correcting this problem. Together with listening to a recording of what the tab represents, even better.

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

The self-published one, or the one put out by Acutab? (Two different players--and I'm not referring to Randy Barrett's recent collaboration with Ben Eldridge, BTW.)

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The "self published" one by the one who owns a record label and is coming to DC next month. And which is available again after being out-of-print.

Let me get this straight. Part of the “rare banjo instructor’s” teaching method was to explain to his students that they should take the “boring, rat-a-tat-tat” style of banjo playing that Earl Scruggs developed and add “swing” to it so it would have a more “pleasing” sound. I wonder if that “rare banjo instructor” ever explained to Scruggs that what he was doing was wrong.

Take a listen to the Ballad of Jed Clampett and notice where Earl swings and where he doesn’t.

If you're here, I reckon you can read, write and speak English. There are all sorts of differences between impromptu conversation, reading aloud off a page, and reciting a memorized text. You hear someone speaking, and it's usually easy to tell which of those is happening, even if they're highly skilled in both reading and speaking. Same with music. What's written is a representation of an intended set of sounds, but we tend to forget how much of the sound is NOT on the page, but in the reader's interpretation, which is based on the sounds they've spent the most time listening to and imitating.

I’m not a regular bluegrass player so maybe I’m not the best to give advice anyway: when I’m playing three fingers the thing that helps me more is to have well clear wich among the notes I’m playing are the melody notes… when I play a tune I’m always singing the melody in my mind…

that's true in the same way if you are reading a tab or playing by heart or improvising, playing streight or swing heights...

Bill,

I quite agree with you that any tab's purpose is to "find notes"--period. All the rest is you playing how you hear it. I personally alter my tabs to sound like I like to hear in the midi only. All this chatter about 1/8 notes and the 1/4 notes and the like, is kind of silly to me but it seems very important to certain members of BHO...Jack

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

I don’t really read tab—I can figure it out though. I learn by ear and by listening to/watching live playing. I use tab to find notes here and there I can’t quite get by ear. But I always start with a significant framework of what I’ve learned by ear. So i never have timing problems when I turn to tab as a supplement.

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Silly?! groan, Jack

Much harder to read correct rhythm than simply finding the notes.
It's rather fun to take a pair of drumsticks and tap out the rhythm of a piece of tab.

Tab opened up my playing.

I couldn't figure out the picking hand at all from just listening to a record and when I did get to be near someone who picked a very good Scruggs style it went by to quickly for me to understand what was being done.

Someone on Matinicus Island visited at a friend's house on Criehaven Island one evening in 1975.

He was a banjo picker and cut out an order form from a BNL and told me to subscribe to that,which I did as soon as I got back to the mainland.

BNL introduced me to great tablature often written by some of the people that I liked the sound of.That led me to the Oak banjo books and I was all set.Tablature broke down the rolls and inside picking.

I don't think I would have gotten so comfortable with fiddletunes if it hadn't been for excellent tablatures that I trusted.

Yes, silly after 25 years of the same tired conversation which the same people thrive on. Fair enough for BHO but not for me....HA! But then I have the choice to leave if I don't like it right?

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Originally posted by chuckv97

Silly?! groan, Jack

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Once you learn how to exactly play a certain tab change it around to suit your style while retaining its foundation.

Hi Again Chuck,

Listen, I'm gonna be honest with you and all the other folks on BHO. I  apologize for writing a nasty posting that made you Groan. Well, it should have because it was rude of me to do so. The real truth is Chuck, that due to approaching 80 now, I've lost the use of my hands to a great extent due to scarring down of my neck and hands for the last 5 years and I'm just taking it out on everyone. 

You post something fresh and new and at different levels frequently and that is what this site has always been about. I'm going through some kind of stupid jealousy thing with people that can still play for real. You have complimented me plenty Chuck and I am thankful--Honest! So please forgive me Chuck when I spout off. I'll try to cut it out because even my Wife thinks I'm being a jerk sometimes....Hopefully still yer Bud in Banjo etc....Jack

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Originally posted by chuckv97

Silly?! groan, Jack

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Originally posted by Jack Baker

Hi Again Chuck,

Listen, I'm gonna be honest with you and all the other folks on BHO. I  apologize for writing a nasty posting that made you Groan. Well, it should have because it was rude of me to do so. The real truth is Chuck, that due to approaching 80 now, I've lost the use of my hands to a great extent due to scarring down of my neck and hands for the last 5 years and I'm just taking it out on everyone. 

You post something fresh and new and at different levels frequently and that is what this site has always been about. I'm going through some kind of stupid jealousy thing with people that can still play for real. You have complimented me plenty Chuck and I am thankful--Honest! So please forgive me Chuck when I spout off. I'll try to cut it out because even my Wife thinks I'm being a jerk sometimes....Hopefully still yer Bud in Banjo etc....Jack

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Originally posted by chuckv97

Silly?! groan, Jack

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Jack, I admire your honesty - I myself have a hard time apologizing at times. Thanks for the compliments - I'm 76 and lucky that my hands still work fairly well.  I can understand your frustration at not being able to play much anymore,,, I don't know how I'll handle that when my time to hang'em up comes.  Gettin' old's not fer sissies , as they say.  All the best.

Thanks Chuck,
I'll still be posting things from time to time....Jack

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Originally posted by Bronx banjo

Tablature is great tool for learning. But the problem is that you can become too dependent on it. The most important thing in learning new material is to have the melody in your head. Then It’s a matter of going measure by measure first looking at the tab then trying to play it again without looking. It can be a painstaking process but it’s worth the effort. Once the material is memorized, it becomes part of your musical vocabulary and that enables you to use what you’ve learned in different musical situations ie. Improvisation.

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I wish this was true for me. I have memorized tunes and was able to play them off book for a bit but as soon as I learn a new one the last one kind of disappears. Also when I am playing a memorized tune, in my head I see the tab! Is that weird?

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Originally posted by suedog

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Originally posted by Bronx banjo

Tablature is great tool for learning. But the problem is that you can become too dependent on it. The most important thing in learning new material is to have the melody in your head. Then It’s a matter of going measure by measure first looking at the tab then trying to play it again without looking. It can be a painstaking process but it’s worth the effort. Once the material is memorized, it becomes part of your musical vocabulary and that enables you to use what you’ve learned in different musical situations ie. Improvisation.

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I wish this was true for me. I have memorized tunes and was able to play them off book for a bit but as soon as I learn a new one the last one kind of disappears. Also when I am playing a memorized tune, in my head I see the tab! Is that weird?

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It all depends.

How long have you been playing?

Do you play these tunes with others or just by yourself?

When alone, do you play it with any form of back up or just banjo?

Do you choose the tunes based on what the book offers or do you have audio examples and search for the correct ('just that') tab?

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Originally posted by RB-1

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Originally posted by suedog

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Originally posted by Bronx banjo

Tablature is great tool for learning. But the problem is that you can become too dependent on it. The most important thing in learning new material is to have the melody in your head. Then It’s a matter of going measure by measure first looking at the tab then trying to play it again without looking. It can be a painstaking process but it’s worth the effort. Once the material is memorized, it becomes part of your musical vocabulary and that enables you to use what you’ve learned in different musical situations ie. Improvisation.

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I wish this was true for me. I have memorized tunes and was able to play them off book for a bit but as soon as I learn a new one the last one kind of disappears. Also when I am playing a memorized tune, in my head I see the tab! Is that weird?

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It all depends.

How long have you been playing?

I'm gonna guess it all started in 2011

(I should be better by now 

Do you play these tunes with others or just by yourself?

When I have played with others it was improvised with my folk pop band. Not what I would consider actual banjo playing.

Now only by myself

When alone, do you play it with any form of back up or just banjo?

Unable!

Do you choose the tunes based on what the book offers or do you have audio examples and search for the correct ('just that') tab?

I choose what I like the sound of.

And I'm probably not helping myself by working on Scruggs style at the same time as clawhammer.

I love both. 

I did figure out one song I loved by ear and tabbed it out. We Will Have Our Day by Joy Kills Sorrow.

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I consider my learning process to be on 2 separate tracks: learning licks and learning tunes.I learn and sometimes create licks to use as backup when playing in a group or jam situation. There is so much repetition with these licks, that I find memorization relatively easy. With tunes, memorization is much more difficult. If the tune is complicated, it takes a whole lot of repetition and if I don’t play it often, I lose it. I keep a list of the tunes I’ve learned through the years and many of them I can’t remember how to play. For example, I have learned Jerusalem Ridge four times because I don’t play it often. The good news is that I find I don’t have to start from square one. There is usually a slight amount of muscle memory that I can rely on but it still requires work. A lot depends upon the your situation. Playing in a group or an ongoing jam really helps gives direction to what you concentrate on.

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Originally posted by trapdoor2

I read tab exclusively, just like sheet music. I don't need memorization, I can play thousands of pieces of music...by reading as I play, just like a player in a symphony orchestra.

So what? It is just another way to play music.

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But can you read and play at the speed that a lot of bluegrass is played at?  I can do most rolls at upwards of 240BPM and even with frettting basic cords but if I try to add the slides, pull offs etc the "wheels fall off the bus". 

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Originally posted by warailroader

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Originally posted by trapdoor2

I read tab exclusively, just like sheet music. I don't need memorization, I can play thousands of pieces of music...by reading as I play, just like a player in a symphony orchestra.

So what? It is just another way to play music.

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But can you read and play at the speed that a lot of bluegrass is played at?  I can do most rolls at upwards of 240BPM and even with frettting basic cords but if I try to add the slides, pull offs etc the "wheels fall off the bus". 

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There should be differentiation between reading "cold" and otherwise. When I was playing orchestral music (cello/viola) we played sight reading games. An unfamiliar score would be placed face-down on our stands and the conductor would say, "flip!" and give the downbeat...which led to hysteria among the amateurs (like 50 yr old me). We got better at it over time. It is all about training and practise.

Reading and speed is all about practice. I've been reading and playing Banjo Tab since 1977...so, I would say I'm a quick study with any new piece.

I equate playing from sheet music (Tab or Notation) with reading literature out loud. There are people who sound robotic and those who sound beautiful and engaging. Practice, listen, correction, practice...it should be everyone's loop.

My favorite use of tab is in backup. on some of the recordings you can kind of hear great backup, but it is not always real clear. My ears don't help. Most of the tabbers have great ears and great knowledge and experience. With their tab, I better see how players arrange their backup and more accurately understand their licks when I look at their tab and listen to the music with it.
Ken

Where can I get a bunch of tabbed out licks? I read about memorizing licks and then improvising/ learning by ear for songs and I'd really like to try this!

Janet Davis has a couple of books that might help. Her Back Up Banjo has pages of different licks in different keys, along with various ways to backup songs. It helped me a lot when I was first trying to learn to do my own arrangements and do backup to various songs. You might check that one out. I presume it's still in print.

Jack Hatfield also has a backup book but it goes along with his first two beginner books. That also has good information on backup.

I've found that backup is a very personal and individual thing that is difficult to teach to others. If you work at backup long enough, you'll develop your own variations.