We learn differently because our brains work differently. I had a lot of timing problems, still do. But I had no trouble learning parts, singing acapela and staying on pitch, as long as they do not have complex timings.
I have a theory about our abilities. I believe some are predisposed to good timing, while others to good pitch. I asked a friend who has played in two major symphonies and she agreed. She said she struggles with timing at times, but has perfect pitch. Not perfect relative pitch but perfect pitch. There is a difference. And her husband also a fine musician and director, has very good timing, but struggles with pitch.
Then there is the issue of visual learners and auditory learners. These affect how we learn.
Larry McNeely has said he got lots of session work because he could read music well because of his classical training. He often showed up to a session gig and was handed a piece of sheet music that said, banjo 16 bars or 8 bars and was blank. The writer wanted banjo, but the banjo wad a mystery to them. Larry had never heard the song before and was give 15 or 20 minutes to come up with an arrangement based on the sheet music he was given. He had to resort to finding an empty room and some times was left nothing but a broom closet to work in.

Larry is from another planet,,,, whew!  I hadn't heard any melodic style playing fiddle tunes until I saw Larry playing "June Apple" , I think it was, (jaw-dropping for me) on the Glen Campbell Show when he was a regular taking John Hartford's spot who had gone off to get his own group going. Then another time he played Jerry Reed's "The Claw" on fingerstyle guitar with Jerry and Glen sitting in with him - Jerry just looked over at Glen amazed. 

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

Janet Davis has a couple of books that might help. Her Back Up Banjo has pages of different licks in different keys, along with various ways to backup songs. It helped me a lot when I was first trying to learn to do my own arrangements and do backup to various songs. You might check that one out. I presume it's still in print.

Jack Hatfield also has a backup book but it goes along with his first two beginner books. That also has good information on backup.

I've found that backup is a very personal and individual thing that is difficult to teach to others. If you work at backup long enough, you'll develop your own variations.

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I can play backup to songs I have never heard before so long as I have a guitar player I am familiar with. I have learned the hard way that backup is very personal, and I think that's a good thing. It was frustrating having this repeated to me every time I asked for advice, but now that I can sort of play decent backup, I completely understand why it was said to me. Embracing the difficult is often necessary. 

Thanks for the book recommendations!

I started using tabs to teach me how tunes go in 1975..
After I've learned a fiddletune by tab I play it for my fiddling pals and ask them if I've got it right.
Then I adjust what I've learned by what they say.
Usually they say I have it correctly.

I don't have a good enough memory to play a tab or tune the same way twice.i like taking liberties with chord substitutions and quoting other tunes.
This must be done carefully so as to stay within allowable parameters.

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Originally posted by RK-FenderPartsBanjo07

Where can I get a bunch of tabbed out licks? I read about memorizing licks and then improvising/ learning by ear for songs and I'd really like to try this!

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1. Tony Trischka's "Hot Licks for Bluegrass Banjo."

$35 at TonyTrischka dot com. Or Amazon. And for less wherever used books are sold.

One of the best features of the book: over 20 pages of melodic style licks covering all the same material as in Tony's "Melodic Banjo" book except for full songs (which you can find elsewhere on the web, including here). Plus, the melodic section in the "Hot Licks" books covers chords not in the "Melodic Banjo" book.

No audio. Homespun used to sell a companion CD that Tony produced, but it's long out of production.

2. Also: Write to Bill Knopf through his website and ask if he can sell you a coy of his "Hot Licks and Fiddle Tunes" book from the 1980s. One of two Hangout members have said he sold them a PDF.  This book is long out of print and I get the impression Bill K is not in a position to reprint it (most likely he doesn't own the rights).

Bill's book is great. Many of his examples show how multi-measure phrases can be altered by just a few notes (very subtly, and maybe even hard for others to hear the difference) to create different licks.

Bill may have coined the term "noise" to describe how to use licks and improvise in general. That is: Throughout a song you need "X" measures of "G noise," "C noise" etc. Tony also used the term "noise" for chord-appropriate musical filler. But I think Bill was first.

3. Alan Munde's "60 Hot Licks for Bluegrass Banjo" DVD - $30 on his site AlMundesBanjoCollege dot com.  Not all the licks are "hot" but all are useful.  If you're familiar with Alan's work, you'll recognize most of them.

4. Bennett Sullivan's BanjoLicks.com website and seubscription service. Licks taught at speed and super-slow, with at least two examples of each lick being used in an actual song. Bennett encourages learning by ear (and by watching him play) but of course he also offers the tab.

Links to the above in following message.

Good luck.

Tony Trischka "Hot Licks" book"
https://shop.portmerch.com/collections/tony-trischka/products/book-hot-licks-for-bluegrass-banjo

Bill Knopf website (contact him to ask about his Hot Licks book)
http://billknopf.net/contact-bill-knopf-5-string-banjo/

Alan Munde's instructional materials (scroll down for "60 Hot Licks" DVD)
https://almundesbanjocollege.com/instruction/

Bennett Sullivan's Banjo Licks site
https://banjolicks.com

I don't understand why more people don't use Jack Hatfield's book of Scruggs transcriptions. https://hatfieldmusic.com/product/scruggs-corner/. You can see so many of the licks Earl used and how to put them into context. You can transfer them to so many songs and you can hear them all online or from dvd. 

Ken

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Originally posted by Dale Diehl

We learn differently because our brains work differently. I had a lot of timing problems, still do. But I had no trouble learning parts, singing acapela and staying on pitch, as long as they do not have complex timings.
I have a theory about our abilities. I believe some are predisposed to good timing, while others to good pitch. I asked a friend who has played in two major symphonies and she agreed. She said she struggles with timing at times, but has perfect pitch. Not perfect relative pitch but perfect pitch. There is a difference. And her husband also a fine musician and director, has very good timing, but struggles with pitch.
Then there is the issue of visual learners and auditory learners. These affect how we learn.
Larry McNeely has said he got lots of session work because he could read music well because of his classical training. He often showed up to a session gig and was handed a piece of sheet music that said, banjo 16 bars or 8 bars and was blank. The writer wanted banjo, but the banjo wad a mystery to them. Larry had never heard the song before and was give 15 or 20 minutes to come up with an arrangement based on the sheet music he was given. He had to resort to finding an empty room and some times was left nothing but a broom closet to work in.

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A great way to learn good timing and pitch is to play with those that have good timing and pitch.