steve davis - Posted - 08/19/2014:  16:06:09

I never said a comper bridge made anything perfect and nobody else has ever said that to my knowledge.

We all know any bridge on straight frets is a compromise.

Was that a joke of some kind rstevens? I didn't get it.

Things are beginning to get interesting around here,dontcha think?

Edited by - steve davis on 08/19/2014 16:09:52

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/19/2014:  16:27:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Basically that's why I locked onto the 12th fret matches and played the hand I was dealt with the rest of the frets.   . . .

---

And that 12th-fret match is reflected clearly in the table for my first comparison:

dropbox.com/s/nt3pekimq8vylv2/...RISON.pdf

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/19/2014 16:31:05

Dan Drabek - Posted - 08/19/2014:  17:36:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

quote:

Have fun using a crowning file on those!

---

Let alone cutting fret slots.

DD

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/19/2014:  17:46:08

Dan, actually cutting the fret slots is easy...with a CNC machine and bits from "Precise Bits". precisebits.com/products/carbi...utter.asp

But yeah, a level, crown, and polish...not fun! Little Cratex wheels shaped for the job, maybe. cratex.com/cratex-small-wheels-box-of-100/

Dan Drabek - Posted - 08/19/2014:  17:47:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken LeVan

To me, getting overly fixated on compensated bridges and nuts and questioning tempered scales on a fretted instrument with variable string gauges like a banjo could be either inexperience, which is understandable, or a symptom of OCD, and may warrant seeking professional help.

 

---

Thank you for posting exactly what I was thinking Ken.  (that way I won't be the target)

I am also skeptical about the claim that the "good players" subconsciously bend the strings to sweeten the pitch. I may buy that when they are holding a long, sustaining note--but in the middle of a fast solo break--I'm afraid I don't buy it. And how do they sweeten the note when it's sharp?--which in my experience is the more common problem on the banjo. 

DD

Dan Drabek - Posted - 08/19/2014:  17:54:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

Dan, actually cutting the fret slots is easy...with a CNC machine and bits from "Precise Bits". precisebits.com/products/carbi...utter.asp

 

---

Dang Rick! I don't have a CNC machine. :->

Just out of curiosity, Do you know if Jeff Traugott has one? He seems to be into weird fretting patterns. With his relatively small volume, it would seem like an extravagant investment. 

DD

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/19/2014:  18:02:43

Jeff does not. He does do a lot of fanned fret guitars, but for him, a lot is maybe six a year, so he subs it out. The fans are not nearly as weird to play as they look. We may do some soon.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 08/19/2014:  18:09:48

I'd love to test drive one if you do. See if I can detect a difference in intonation. Haven't yet seen it done on banjos.

DD

rudy - Posted - 08/19/2014:  18:50:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

quote:

---

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

Russ, no, that's fairly "normal" fanned fretting which some believe helps with string gauge selection. The True Temper thing is this:



[live link below]

---

truetemperament.com/

---

Have fun using a crowning file on those!

---

I'm really surprised that they were awarded patents.  However, I read several months back that it has become comparatively easy to get a patent, at least in the USA--especially if you are willing to spend the money.  An attorney friend of mine who specializes in both intellectual property and in litigation looked at this and said, "I would really enjoy defending a suit filed by these guys.  I think they would lose."  (She also plays guitar . . . )

---

I see a trademark on the name and an official patent issuance, which doesn't mean much.  Even when patents are awarded it's no guarantee that they can be successfully defended. I wouldn't lose any sleep over patent infringement if you want to dig mangled frets out of a trash compactor and install them.

Edited by - rudy on 08/19/2014 18:56:27

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/19/2014:  21:43:17

Dan, I can introduce you to Jeff Traugott easily enough; his shop is about five blocks from mine over on Mission Extension. Another local guitar maker specializing in fanned fret guitars is Matt Mustapick. And my friend Henry Kaiser who lives in Bonny Doon has a couple of the wiggle fret TrueTemperament guitars.

The fanned thing is really more about being able to use lighter gauged low strings which may give an improvement to intonation by being less stiff, but the players who like it use the system more for tone.

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  03:24:56

I like the extra tone I get from the intonation of the Davis bridge.

It rearranges the quality of harmony.

I'll be getting some feedback from my Woodsound Studio pals,soon.

Edited by - steve davis on 08/20/2014 03:32:46

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  04:18:39

I need those 2 bridges back if you aren't going to buy them John and Russ.

Thank you.

gospelman97 - Posted - 08/20/2014:  04:21:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I like the extra tone I get from the intonation of the Davis bridge.

It rearranges the quality of harmony.

---

Come on Steve.  "EXTRA TONE"  "REARRANGES THE QUALITY OF HARMONY"

These are not terms that are definable and really have no business in a thread dealing with mathematical numbers and the attempt at scientific research and experiment as outlined in what John and Russ were doing.  

Your statements are reverting back to the posts you made in the other bridge threads over the past few months.  You throw all math and science out the window and say things like extra tone, sweeter harmonies, etc.. and it turns into a walking advertisement for your bridge.  It then turns into a mudslinging contest because folks challenge you on it and it gets ugly on both sides of the argument.  

I would hope that wouldn't happen in this thread and it would not become a Steve Davis vs the world thread.

Maybe Russ could repeat his experiment with some other compensated bridges like a Moon Bridge, Hatfield Bridge, and maybe a Purcell that only has the third string slightly compensated to take the microscope off of the Davis bridge for a bit.  I found his numbers extremely interesting and am looking forward to seeing Steve's and maybe John can give us his numbers as well.

Here's to hoping this thread is not heading towards being locked!

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  04:27:39

That's the best I can describe what I hear with my bridge design,Bryan.

People are welcome to test whatever they want and say whatever they want and you are welcome to interpret any of it however you like.

Ain't it a great big beautiful world?

Edited by - steve davis on 08/20/2014 04:29:43

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  04:50:54

I still have my tests to run in a few days and we'll add those results to the "stone soup".

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  06:34:41

Does anyone want to review my head tension gauge and see how close it matches the G# tapped note?

Banjophobic - Posted - 08/20/2014:  06:49:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I need those 2 bridges back if you aren't going to buy them John and Russ.

Thank you.

---

SteveI guess Russ didn't email you. He asked for my bridge to test so I mailed it to him. You can recover them both from him or maybe he will buy both. Thanks for the loaner bridge. 

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  06:51:46

You're welcome,John.

Banjophobic - Posted - 08/20/2014:  06:56:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by gospelman97

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I like the extra tone I get from the intonation of the Davis bridge.

It rearranges the quality of harmony.

---

 

 

Come on Steve.  "EXTRA TONE"  "REARRANGES THE QUALITY OF HARMONY"

 

 

 

These are not terms that are definable and really have no business in a thread dealing with mathematical numbers and the attempt at scientific research and experiment as outlined in what John and Russ were doing.  

Your statements are reverting back to the posts you made in the other bridge threads over the past few months.  You throw all math and science out the window and say things like extra tone, sweeter harmonies, etc.. and it turns into a walking advertisement for your bridge.  It then turns into a mudslinging contest because folks challenge you on it and it gets ugly on both sides of the argument.  

 

 

 

 

I would hope that wouldn't happen in this thread and it would not become a Steve Davis vs the world thread.

Maybe Russ could repeat his experiment with some other compensated bridges like a Moon Bridge, Hatfield Bridge, and maybe a Purcell that only has the third string slightly compensated to take the microscope off of the Davis bridge for a bit.  I found his numbers extremely interesting and am looking forward to seeing Steve's and maybe John can give us his numbers as well.

 

 

Here's to hoping this thread is not heading towards being locked!

---

Bryan

Well.....again, this is the world of  'anecdotal evidences' being shown....which are totally subjective. I found no evidence of "sweeter" harmony on most banjos. It was a case of some notes being helped to be closer to on pitch in some spots, while being not as 'on' in others.  Tonally, Steve's bridge sounded excellent on one banjo while being not so good on another. Just being a compensated bridge is no guarantee of either sweeter harmony across the fingerboard, nor better tone, regaled less of who made it.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  07:02:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I need those 2 bridges back if you aren't going to buy them John and Russ.

Thank you.

---

Certainly.  But I wonder if you missed my previous post fairly early in this thread on August 14 (go back and take a look):

I'm not through yet!

1.  I've arranged with John (banjophobic​) to try the Davis bridge he evaluated side-by-side with the one Steve provided to me.

2.  I'm also going to try both against the same straight bridge on a second banjo, a modestly-priced archtop, about 2 weeks from now.

I'm also a bit confused by your request of me in particular because, in an e-mail to me on July 28, you stated:

"I don’t want any money for this bridge,Russ.The amount of time you spend studying it more than pays for it.I’m open to learning new things about this design if there is anything more to learn."

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/20/2014 07:04:56

Banjophobic - Posted - 08/20/2014:  07:07:15

Russ, the bridge was mailed out yesterday so you should see it in a couple days hopefully.

Edited by - Banjophobic on 08/20/2014 07:07:38

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  07:20:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by gospelman97

 . . .

Maybe Russ could repeat his experiment with some other compensated bridges like a Moon Bridge, Hatfield Bridge, and maybe a Purcell that only has the third string slightly compensated to take the microscope off of the Davis bridge for a bit.  I found his numbers extremely interesting and am looking forward to seeing Steve's and maybe John can give us his numbers as well.

 . . .

---

Bryan, I'm seriously considering doing exactly that.  

I'm also thinking of getting and evaluating one of Bart Veerman's custom-compensated bridges.

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  07:58:39

It would be good to see other people get involved in bridge "measurements",too.

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  08:15:43

I'll first test a Grover that I have and wait for my bridges I sent to Russ and John and test those same ones.

This will reveal any differences (if any) in our procedures/results.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  08:46:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I'll first test a Grover that I have and wait for my bridges I sent to Russ and John and test those same ones.

This will reveal any differences (if any) in our procedures/results.

---

Now I'm even more confused.  In the prior thread (banjohangout.org/topic/288254/7), after noting that you'd sent me a bridge, you wrote this about it on July 23:

"I recorded each fret and strings' notes after locating the prime spot and will keep those results to compare with your findings,Russ."

And you wrote, later in that thread (banjohangout.org/topic/288254/8) on July 24:

"I'll grab a different one out of inventory and do the real numbers flat/on/sharp on that one and compare with John's and Russ's on that one."

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/20/2014 08:58:55

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  08:49:04

I didn't get around to doing that yet,Russ.

I got a few but need the full report.All I had was my DT-2 and I immediately knew it wasn't "fine" enough for these numbers.

I finally got to borrow a Conn strobotuner a couple days ago and want the accuracy of that machine,anyway.

When can you get those bridges in the mail,Russ?

And now I'll be refiguring it with the Conn tuner so I wouldn't be surprised to find a more accurate template out of all this.

Edited by - steve davis on 08/20/2014 09:06:18

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  09:06:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I need those 2 bridges back if you aren't going to buy them John and Russ.

Thank you.

---

Certainly.  But I wonder if you missed my previous post fairly early in this thread on August 14 (go back and take a look):

I'm not through yet!

1.  I've arranged with John (banjophobic​) to try the Davis bridge he evaluated side-by-side with the one Steve provided to me.

2.  I'm also going to try both against the same straight bridge on a second banjo, a modestly-priced archtop, about 2 weeks from now.

I'm also a bit confused by your request of me in particular because, in an e-mail to me on July 28, you stated:

"I don’t want any money for this bridge,Russ.The amount of time you spend studying it more than pays for it.I’m open to learning new things about this design if there is anything more to learn."

 

---

Have you read all of the recent posts in this thread?  Did you miss this one about 7 back up the line?

I continue to be confused.  

Do you not keep your word?

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/20/2014 09:08:59

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  09:08:12

You can keep yours Russ.Just send me John's.

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  09:15:55

It would be nice if this didn't turn into "All Steve, All the Time again." Steve, I fully respect that you make a decent bridge, but you're not the only one; you're just the only one to use this platform for relentless self-promotion. It would be nice if this were not about personalities and hustling a particular brand but about intonation.

I suspect that this whole issue could be resolved by a set of very specific numbers. Each string could be said to intonate correctly at the 12th fret if the bridge witness point is D12thX2 + a correction factor for 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 with a given set of strings and absolutely correct nut height, neck relief being a constant, and action at the 12th fret being a constant. Yes, it may be affected by the banjo itself...I still wonder about that after-length issue as it affects total string stretch.

We have some dedicated and knowledgeable folks here, some with engineering backgrounds, who know how to accurately and scientifically test these intonation issues. Intonation IS about very specific numbers...as long as we're agreeing that 12TET is our standard for pitch references.

This comes down to exactly what a particular bridge has for measurements for each string from the 12 fret to the witness point when the bridge is properly positioned.

Seems to me, one could take a straight bridge and move it back and forth testing for each individual string and when you have it nailed, then take a measurement from the 12th fret to the witness point. You'll wind up with a set of five offsets that tell the tale. Do that with an accurate tuner, and you've got the numbers. How hard can this be?

When I see words like "tone", I kind of cringe as it is fairly meaningless...being a very subjective concept. One man's "tone" may be another person's "ice pick in the ear" or "muffled rumble". It would be good to separate the tone issue from the intonation issue. A quick aside: I knew a guitar pickup maker whose idea of "great tone" seemed to be the inverse of his hearing loss, and the older he got, the more of an upper midrange peak his pickups had.

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  09:32:16

This thread is about evaluating my bridge design and I didn't start this thread,so it's not self-promotion.

I put the best words I can think of in describing sounds.

Edited by - steve davis on 08/20/2014 09:35:11

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  09:33:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

Seems to me, one could take a straight bridge and move it back and forth testing for each individual string and when you have it nailed, then take a measurement from the 12th fret to the witness point. You'll wind up with a set of five offsets that tell the tale. Do that with an accurate tuner, and you've got the numbers. How hard can this be?

 . . .



When I see words like "tone", I kind of cringe as it is fairly meaningless...being a very subjective concept.   . . .

---

For the first:  This sounds suspiciously close to what Bart Veerman asks for to make a custom compensated bridge:  banjobridge.com/br-06.htm

For the second:  Famous chef Bobby Flay says "delicious" is a word that is meaningless.

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/20/2014 09:35:08

xnavyguy - Posted - 08/20/2014:  09:34:37

Real world....personalities, self-promotion, scientific measurements aside...my two cents on this.  Maybe more like a nickel's worth, if you consider inflation.

Each month, during band practice & live performances, I spend a good deal of my time standing next to one of the best banjo players on the planet, my friend Art Horan (Roll Player).  More often than not, the banjo he is playing is fitted with one of Steve's compensated bridges.  With 5 vocalists in our band, our performance set list will have tunes in as many as 7 different keys.  Many of these keys require that Art install his capo on his banjo.

What I have noticed is that, with Steve's bridge, Art has far fewer tuning/re-tuning issues than he does when he is using a straight bridge. 

rudy - Posted - 08/20/2014:  09:36:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

It would be nice if this didn't turn into "All Steve, All the Time again." Steve, I fully respect that you make a decent bridge, but you're not the only one; you're just the only one to use this platform for relentless self-promotion. It would be nice if this were not about personalities and hustling a particular brand but about intonation.



I suspect that this whole issue could be resolved by a set of very specific numbers. Each string could be said to intonate correctly at the 12th fret if the bridge witness point is D12thX2 + a correction factor for 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 with a given set of strings and absolutely correct nut height, neck relief being a constant, and action at the 12th fret being a constant. Yes, it may be affected by the banjo itself...I still wonder about that after-length issue as it affects total string stretch.



We have some dedicated and knowledgeable folks here, some with engineering backgrounds, who know how to accurately and scientifically test these intonation issues. Intonation IS about very specific numbers...as long as we're agreeing that 12TET is our standard for pitch references.



This comes down to exactly what a particular bridge has for measurements for each string from the 12 fret to the witness point when the bridge is properly positioned.



Seems to me, one could take a straight bridge and move it back and forth testing for each individual string and when you have it nailed, then take a measurement from the 12th fret to the witness point. You'll wind up with a set of five offsets that tell the tale. Do that with an accurate tuner, and you've got the numbers. How hard can this be?



When I see words like "tone", I kind of cringe as it is fairly meaningless...being a very subjective concept. One man's "tone" may be another person's "ice pick in the ear" or "muffled rumble". It would be good to separate the tone issue from the intonation issue. A quick aside: I knew a guitar pickup maker whose idea of "great tone" seemed to be the inverse of his hearing loss, and the older he got, the more of an upper midrange peak his pickups had.

---

Bart Veerman quit selling "generically compensated btidges" a long time ago and only offers custom compensated bridges.  In essence, what you're proposing is exactly what Bart has a customer do when they have decided to order a custom compensated bridge.  You're right, it's not hard.

Here is Bart's procedure for determination of offset values:

banjobridge.com/br-06.htm

Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in Bart's bridges and use my own.  (...but you won't deal with a nicer person, and it takes a LOT to get Bart rattled.)  Bart has done more scientific testing of his bridge designs than anyone I can think of, and he's confident enough in his knowledge that he seldom sees a need to chime in on these discussions.

His website is chock full of useful information relating to bridges, and if you don't want to purchase one of Bart's he even has links to OTHER well-respected bridge makers on his links page.  Ain't that crazy?

banjobridge.com/index.html

Edit: I see Rawhide already posted Bart's website link.  It's not common-enough knowledge that Bart's website offers a plethora of bridge=related information, free for the viewing.

Edited by - rudy on 08/20/2014 09:50:25

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  09:38:31

I'd be happy to send you an identical bridge for the the one you used,Russ.

Banjophobic - Posted - 08/20/2014:  09:49:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by xnavyguy

Real world....personalities, self-promotion, scientific measurements aside...my two cents on this.  Maybe more like a nickel's worth, if you consider inflation.

Each month, during band practice & live performances, I spend a good deal of my time standing next to one of the best banjo players on the planet, my friend Art Horan (Roll Player).  More often than not, the banjo he is playing is fitted with one of Steve's compensated bridges.  With 5 vocalists in our band, our performance set list will have tunes in as many as 7 different keys.  Many of these keys require that Art install his capo on his banjo.

What I have noticed is that, with Steve's bridge, Art has far fewer tuning/re-tuning issues than he does when he is using a straight bridge. 

---

And I can name over a hundred professional players who use straight bridges who do not have to excessively tune... either with or without a capo. Much of the tuning issues can from the type capo used, where it is places and adjusted, the overall set up, the tuners themselves, string age, and the players ability to tweek in a hurry when needed. 

Oh, and Steves bridge didnt fair any better, in regards to capoed intonation, to other compensated ones I've tested, or straight, depending on the various banjos used.  There was not a unoversal 'fix' for anything.

Edited by - Banjophobic on 08/20/2014 09:54:08

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  09:53:58

I used a straight bridge for many years.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  09:57:28

Okay, let;s all drop back, take a deep breath, and contemplate:

Bernard Baruch:  "Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts."

Aldous Huxley:  "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan:  "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts."

Robert Heinlein:  "If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science, it is opinion."

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  10:00:06

If it sounds better to me then I must be onto something...Steve Davis

I'd really like to have the original back,Russ.

Will you trade for a second one?

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 08/20/2014:  10:20:47

Its just the same o, sameO thing that EVERYONE of us that played the "ring around the bridgegame" did years ago when the first tuners came out... I used the big "desk model Peterson" and others.. Chased every note on the neck..
The first brilliant idea we all had was to "get each string exactly"... and we and countless others found that overall it didn't work out in practice... (Some compensation for certain strings is a good thing sometimes. ie the SS bridges, but there certainly is no big need in 99.9 percent of "BANJO" picking for chasing straws..)
NO ONE can claim this as their own idea, It has been tryed litterly thousands of times..By experienced people..

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  10:23:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

If it sounds better to me then I must be onto something...Steve Davis

---

An opinion, not a fact.

Roll Player - Posted - 08/20/2014:  10:36:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

quote:

---

Originally posted by xnavyguy

Real world....personalities, self-promotion, scientific measurements aside...my two cents on this.  Maybe more like a nickel's worth, if you consider inflation.

Each month, during band practice & live performances, I spend a good deal of my time standing next to one of the best banjo players on the planet, my friend Art Horan (Roll Player).  More often than not, the banjo he is playing is fitted with one of Steve's compensated bridges.  With 5 vocalists in our band, our performance set list will have tunes in as many as 7 different keys.  Many of these keys require that Art install his capo on his banjo.

What I have noticed is that, with Steve's bridge, Art has far fewer tuning/re-tuning issues than he does when he is using a straight bridge. 

---

And I can name over a hundred professional players who use straight bridges who do not have to excessively tune... either with or without a capo. Much of the tuning issues can from the type capo used, where it is places and adjusted, the overall set up, the tuners themselves, string age, and the players ability to tweek in a hurry when needed. 

Oh, and Steves bridge didnt fair any better, in regards to capoed intonation, to other compensated ones I've tested, or straight, depending on the various banjos used.  There was not a unoversal 'fix' for anything.

---

I appreciate Jerry's enthusiasm for my playing but I'm far from one of the best on the planet.

I don't find that I have to tune excessively when using a straight bridge, but on the banjos I've used Steve's bridge, I've had to re-tune hardly at all when capo-ing or removing the capo, aside from tweaking the 5th, so for me, at least, there is a difference, not saying it's a universal fix or anything, just my subjective experience.

Most pros are going to stick with what works for them. I appreciate that. I think when you see a top pro doing a lot of tuning on stage, it has more to do with new strings than anything else.

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  10:46:34

There's more money being poured into packaging and shipping these bridges than they are worth! Whew!

And Rudy, thanks. This is similar to how some folks do bridge saddle compensation for acoustic guitars. StewMac even has a little fixture for doing this.

I would think that since there seem to be factors beyond our current understanding that seem to affect intonation on each individual banjo, a generic compensation, while probably better than no compensation, would not be adequate for many picky (pun intended) players. Custom intonation is the way to go...if it's important to you. I could see making a little fixture about 12" long with a hook that rests against either face of the 12th fret on one edge and a shorter length for the 17th fret (5th string) against which you place one jaw of a set of calipers and then measure to the witness point one string at a time. You could lightly clamp this doo-dad to the neck and do a complete set of measurements in less than five minutes. Transfer that to a bridge top, and voila. Maybe start with a Moon-style bridge and do it yourself, or send the measurements to Steve or Bart or whomever to have it done. No big deal.

One thing to note (yes, another pun), I think it would be best to test any of this intonation stuff holding the banjo and fretting it in real playing position. An instrument flat down on a work bench will not give the same readings as one held and played. So, no, you probably can't capo at the 12th fret and get accurate real-world readings.

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  10:48:32

Re. capos...this is a whole other can of worms. Some affect tuning more than others; some folks don't know how to put even the best capos on correctly. I think we have to separate capo issues from intonated bridge issues. Deal with one problem at a time.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 08/20/2014:  12:21:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

Seems to me, one could take a straight bridge and move it back and forth testing for each individual string and when you have it nailed, then take a measurement from the 12th fret to the witness point. You'll wind up with a set of five offsets that tell the tale. Do that with an accurate tuner, and you've got the numbers. How hard can this be?

 

---

Sorry for getting off topic - a while ago I asked folks what those numbers were on their banjos but, despite the large number of hits on that thread, there were very few people who actually posted their offset measurements.

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  12:32:09

Bart, how different do you find the offsets to be from one to the next of those folks who have had you make bridges?

Your system (obviously!) makes total sense to me. It accounts for action, relief, scale length, string gauge, and whatever the elusive factors may be. Working from measured corrections is the way to go, and Steve, that's a service you might want to consider offering. I think involving the owner of the instrument in the equation is good for everyone; player, bridge builder, and listeners.

"One size fits all" kind of works for us with sending guitars out to ultimately unknown customers; it gets intonation in the ballpark, but when possible, we like to dial in intonation very specifically to a player's setup and with their string choice.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 08/20/2014:  12:42:47

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

Bart, how different do you find the offsets to be from one to the next of those folks who have had you make bridges?

 

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They're all over the map Rick and vary way too much to even think of trying to averaging them. Especially the third string can range anywhere from 0 to 8 mm...

Anyways, I really don't want to detour this thread but thanks for asking. Over and out for this one.

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  12:49:29

Bart, I think your experience is totally relevant to this thread. Steve thinks that a one size fits all solution is the ultimate. Some folks think that compensation is totally unneeded. You have found that it's all over the map and that compensation should be banjo and string specific. I'm in your camp. Not sure about that 8 mm, though! That's well over 1/4". We do have to be careful about bad strings. Of course things could get really weird with gut or nylon, especially if you have a wound string in there.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 08/20/2014:  13:31:03

John,

Thanks for your investigations and posting them on this forum.

It's up to 3500 "reads" at this point.

This topic is always a lively one, and I'll readily admit, I just don't "get" the fascination with compensated bridges.  I'd love to understand it.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  13:55:29

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

There's more money being poured into packaging and shipping these bridges than they are worth! Whew!

 . . .



One thing to note (yes, another pun), I think it would be best to test any of this intonation stuff holding the banjo and fretting it in real playing position. An instrument flat down on a work bench will not give the same readings as one held and played. So, no, you probably can't capo at the 12th fret and get accurate real-world readings.

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When I recorded values, I held the instrument in playing position, using my regular plastic thumb pick on each note for each string.

Each string was checked 5 times, checking tuning at open and 12 each on every iteration before continuing.  Although the results were read to a tenth of a cent, the 5 values for each fret and string were first averaged, then rounded to the nearest cent.  

Time-consuming, indeed.