steve davis - Posted - 08/17/2014:  13:47:19

This is also about the results of my upcomoing tests,Russ.

Why would you need to be in touch with John to get your results?

Edited by - steve davis on 08/17/2014 13:48:02

Lew H - Posted - 08/17/2014:  14:09:15

PickNgrin and RawhideCreek--I think you may have just reinvented the statistical measure, "standard deviation from the mean." Or something close to it, or maybe RMS is just another phrase for it. You are precisely correct in using this as the measure of how far off the intonation is on average.

steve davis - Posted - 08/17/2014:  14:10:58

Does anyone have any experience with a Conn strobotuner?

steve davis - Posted - 08/17/2014:  14:14:16

John at Woodsound said simply,"Intonation is pitch."

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 08/17/2014:  14:26:58

Steve... The thing about working with a high quality accurate stroube tuner is that because of their accuracy they are a whole lot more trouble to use and to get used to.. You will find your self arguing with it, doubting it, reversing things that you know are right to begin with, then reversing again.... They show up any "off"s in an instrument rite quick.. But there is an adjustment curve in learning and interpreting their results. Always reset and check zero several times before using each time..

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 08/17/2014 14:27:35

Ken LeVan - Posted - 08/17/2014:  14:56:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Does anyone have any experience with a Conn strobotuner?

---

Yes,

I am a tuba player as well as a banjo player, and the low brass, particularly the tuba is the only instrument I can think of that has more intonation problems than a banjo. Many tyuba designs have been developed in order to "compensate" for the intonation problems. None can circumvent the basic ability to "hear the note"

Digital tuners with tubas are useless because in order to play the tuba, you have to be abltThe rest is up to the player, pretty much the same as a banjo.

As they say, there is no free lunch

steve davis - Posted - 08/17/2014:  15:07:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenneth Logsdon

Steve... The thing about working with a high quality accurate stroube tuner is that because of their accuracy they are a whole lot more trouble to use and to get used to.. You will find your self arguing with it, doubting it, reversing things that you know are right to begin with, then reversing again.... They show up any "off"s in an instrument rite quick.. But there is an adjustment curve in learning and interpreting their results. Always reset and check zero several times before using each time..

---

I have no intention of changing the basic principle of my design which is to adjust the length of each string to match everything at the twelfth fret,Ken.

I will simply be looking for a more accurate template (if necessary) and know the values of the fretted notes as compared to their tempered counterparts.

I'm getting everything I can out of square frets.

I'll just as probably end up with not knowing why my bridge design sounds so great and fall back on Gramp's old favorite saying,"It don't matter why...it just is,"

Or The Dukes saying,"If it sounds good it is good,"

The ear is everything.

Edited by - steve davis on 08/17/2014 15:08:54

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/17/2014:  17:27:12

For anyone who may have missed it, Ken's exhaustive (and exhausting) comparison of bridges is an archived thread that can be found here:

banjohangout.org/archive/279782

Well worth visiting, indeed, and probably worth revisiting.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/17/2014:  17:38:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lew H

PickNgrin and RawhideCreek--I think you may have just reinvented the statistical measure, "standard deviation from the mean." Or something close to it, or maybe RMS is just another phrase for it. You are precisely correct in using this as the measure of how far off the intonation is on average.

---

Lew, standard deviation is "from the mean" and probably wouldn't help us much, since each data point, being a different fret on a different string, is sui generis; On the other hand, RMS is a mean and does do away with negative values.  However, in so doing, it gives us a "how much" but not a "in what direction".

rudy - Posted - 08/17/2014:  17:44:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Does anyone have any experience with a Conn strobotuner?

---

The mechanical version (and all of the new electronic versions) all operate similarly.  You can tune to a specific pitch or use the pitch referance setting and +/- cents control to read how far you are off the pitch setting when the strobe lines stabilize.  My Peterson has alternative settings for other tuning systems other than 12TET that you can select.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/17/2014:  18:04:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

John at Woodsound said simply,"Intonation is pitch."

---

In a general sense, "intonation" means simply "to put into tone" (e.g., a priest "intones" a prayer or a chant).

In the strict musical sense, "intonation" refers specifically to "accuracy of pitch".  For this reason, one of the things that music performance students are judged on is whether they have "good intonati​on", i.e., whether the pitches they play are correct.  (Ken, as a tuba player, I'll bet your sensitive to this, too . . . !)

So intonation is a quality of pitch.  Pitch, on the other hand, is just the musical term for frequency.

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/17/2014 18:10:51

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/17/2014:  19:17:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by pickNgrin

quote:

---

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

John at Woodsound said simply,"Intonation is pitch."

---

So intonation is a quality of pitch.  Pitch, on the other hand, is just the musical term for frequency.

---

I would say that "intonation" is the accuracy of the pitch, while "tone" is the quality of it (i.e. how good does that frequency sound). Tone involves overtones near the fundamental pitch which make a good banjo sound different from a poor one, or from a piano for that matter.

---

If we get into "tone", "timbre", and "texture" (all part of the same conceptual "package"), we should probably send that to a new thread . . . but, generally speaking, if you're comparing the sound of two instruments of the same kind (i.e., two banjos), you will be talking about "tone".  If you compare the characteristic sounds of two different instruments (e.g., a banjo and a piano), you will be talking about "timbre".  And if you talk about how the banjo and piano sound played together, you'll be talking about "texture".

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/17/2014 19:27:20

steve davis - Posted - 08/18/2014:  04:16:07

Thanks,Rudy.

steve davis - Posted - 08/18/2014:  05:00:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

John at Woodsound said simply,"Intonation is pitch."

---

In a general sense, "intonation" means simply "to put into tone" (e.g., a priest "intones" a prayer or a chant).

In the strict musical sense, "intonation" refers specifically to "accuracy of pitch".  For this reason, one of the things that music performance students are judged on is whether they have "good intonati​on", i.e., whether the pitches they play are correct.  (Ken, as a tuba player, I'll bet your sensitive to this, too . . . !)

So intonation is a quality of pitch.  Pitch, on the other hand, is just the musical term for frequency.

---

John from Woodsound would probably like to discuss that with you,Russ.

Banjophobic - Posted - 08/18/2014:  07:19:33

A great strobe will also reveal why some banjo notes are "helped" with a comp bridge, while others are not. It's accuracy shows what's going on with tempered tuning, on  go you take into account the entire fingerboard. In my testing of every compensated bridge I've encountered over the years, include Steve's, I saw from the strobes viewpoint, how the numbers looked. But my ears didn't always agree with those numbers. 

Since tempering is a compromise anyway, and each banjo has it's own peculiarities in set up and construction , those variance in intonation just won't be "fixed" across the board by any one bridge. Steve's bridge worked very well on some banjos, for certain fretted notes, and not so well on other banjo for certain fretted positions, as I stated fin my first post. 

Tone is always subjective and no one bridge is going to sound great on ove banjo, to every person. You don't need an expensive strobe to realize that.  I have used Peterson for years but Conn is a great brand too. most of the inexpensive clip on tuners are set for ET algorithms and work fine for everyday tuning in about all situations beyond higher end session work. But even with the strobe, thee is still "sweetening" that each players brain says the banjo "needs". 

rudy - Posted - 08/18/2014:  09:37:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

A great strobe will also reveal why some banjo notes are "helped" with a comp bridge, while others are not. It's accuracy shows what's going on with tempered tuning, on  go you take into account the entire fingerboard. In my testing of every compensated bridge I've encountered over the years, include Steve's, I saw from the strobes viewpoint, how the numbers looked. But my ears didn't always agree with those numbers. 

Since tempering is a compromise anyway, and each banjo has it's own peculiarities in set up and construction , those variance in intonation just won't be "fixed" across the board by any one bridge. Steve's bridge worked very well on some banjos, for certain fretted notes, and not so well on other banjo for certain fretted positions, as I stated fin my first post. 

Tone is always subjective and no one bridge is going to sound great on ove banjo, to every person. You don't need an expensive strobe to realize that.  I have used Peterson for years but Conn is a great brand too. most of the inexpensive clip on tuners are set for ET algorithms and work fine for everyday tuning in about all situations beyond higher end session work. But even with the strobe, thee is still "sweetening" that each players brain says the banjo "needs".  

---

John, Thanks for your continued efforts to try to sort out the logic in this.  After all the effort that you put forth in evaluation it seems that it just serves to verify what you, and others, have said from the earliest days of the Great Bridge Debates.

I've come to accept that intonation issues are something that some have the ability to understand using reason and logic, or it's just something that isn't going to sink in no matter who posts or what they say.

Intonation IS an exact science, but the listener's ability to understand the vagarious nature of 12TET is sometimes beyond what some have the ability or desire to reason out or deal with.

When we examine the actual numerical relationships in graphical or charted form it reminds me of a great line from Elvis Costello in his song Mystery Dance; "What's the use of lookin' if you don't know what they mean?".

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/18/2014:  11:24:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

quote:

---

Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

John at Woodsound said simply,"Intonation is pitch."

---

In a general sense, "intonation" means simply "to put into tone" (e.g., a priest "intones" a prayer or a chant).

In the strict musical sense, "intonation" refers specifically to "accuracy of pitch".  For this reason, one of the things that music performance students are judged on is whether they have "good intonati​on", i.e., whether the pitches they play are correct.  (Ken, as a tuba player, I'll bet your sensitive to this, too . . . !)

So intonation is a quality of pitch.  Pitch, on the other hand, is just the musical term for frequency.

---

John from Woodsound would probably like to discuss that with you,Russ.

---

Holy smoke!  I just realized you're probably talking about that shop up in or near Rockport that I visited with my niece a few years ago.  She was playing in the Bowdoin Festival in Brunswick and a joint on her viola opened up.  I offered her mine, but at 16-1/2 inches, it's just too big for her.  We got a great emergency repair!  I don't remember whether it was John or Ron that we dealt with then, but I'll be delighted to call or e-mail John (or Ron), if for no other reason than to thank him (them) again for such great service!  I'll do it tomorrow!

steve davis - Posted - 08/18/2014:  15:03:47

I had to look up instructions for operating this Conn tuner and the reading of what Conn has written about tuning of all instruments including piano is quite extensive.

I just found their piano off sets in cents.I kinda gotta go to school on running this but it looks like fun.

These tuners are quite collectible it seems.

Aradobanjo - Posted - 08/18/2014:  16:55:48

Hello,

We do not have frictionless nuts, bridges, and tailpieces. Nor do we have true elastic strings. Deformation is real. Thinning of strings does happen. Metal fatigues and becomes brittle. Sweat corrodes and increases resistance to movement.

As such, we cannot expect fretted notes to always be true regardless how well and precise a fret board and neck fit is. True tempered instruments are not on this earth. I find it tough to see any truth that one device can correct all banjo ills. Could it get us close? Close is all we can get. 

Change the strings after a period of use is the first step. Replace the bridge after a period of use is a good next step.  Lube the nut with Big Bend's Nut Sauce. Put leather strips under the tailpiece tangs to reduce metal to metal friction. Be nice to your instrument. 

We cannot expect everything to last an indefinite period. It's about time to change my strings. Thus, the cycle begins again. 

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/18/2014:  17:00:51

Piano offsets are a whole 'nuther thing, Steve. That's all about attempting to tune harmonics of lower strings to fundamentals of higher strings. Why? Because strings are inherently not in tune with themselves when you get deep into it all. Because of string stiffness and high tension, the upper harmonics of piano strings drift more and more sharp the higher up the harmonic series you go. To over-simpify things, think of it as tuning the 4th harmonic of a low string to the fundamental of a string four octaves higher. To do that, you have to "stretch" tune the fundamental of the low string(s) flat. In practice, piano tuners tend to tune strings below middle C flatter and flatter and above middle C sharper and sharper. At the top of the heap with pianists, different tuners will have their own stretch offsets for different pianos and different players. The best concert pianists all have their favorite pianos and piano tuners around the world.

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 08/18/2014:  17:57:11

Otherwise, the best way to put it is that pianner tuning has absolutely nothing to do with banjos..

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/18/2014:  18:01:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

 . . .  The best concert pianists all have their favorite pianos and piano tuners around the world.

---

So much so, in fact, that many of them have their pianos flown to performance venues ahead of them and tuned there.  

The best piano tuner I've known over the years was in Utah.  He was totally blind; his wife drove him to his appointments.  

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/18/2014:  18:48:46

I wouldn't say that piano tuning has nothing to do with banjos...unless you don't count the strings as being important. The same physical rules that govern piano string performance are in play with banjo strings, though to a much lesser degree. But strings are strings, and they all follow the same performance rules. If you were to strobe/measure harmonics on a banjo string much past the 4th overtone (which is the 5th harmonic! :-)), you'd find them drifting sharp of the pitch you'd expect. Also, in the back to basics portion of this broadcast, "harmonics" of a string are not all octaves by any means, and they are what just intonation pitches are based upon, and I think I'd better stop there lest we go down some whirlpool again.

steve davis - Posted - 08/18/2014:  19:08:06

Conn writes about tunings of many instruments,piano being one.

They have many graphs and findings.I've just scratched the surface with Conn.

I'll be finding out some cool stuff whether anyone thinks its valid or not.I'll let you all know as I find out more.

Explorer - Posted - 08/18/2014:  19:35:08

Is it safe to say, if an fretted instrument has frets placed for equal temperament, that one should be using piano offsets for what the note should be at the 12th fret?

I would assume you'd go with no offset, and I intonate with my Turbo Tuner with no offset, but I'm always ready learn!

steve davis - Posted - 08/18/2014:  19:38:06

I have no idea if piano offsets are germane to the topic or not.

I just noticed that as one of the things they write and know about.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/18/2014:  20:35:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Does anyone have any experience with a Conn strobotuner?

---

I'm pretty sure we had one in the band room when I was in junior high school . . . call it 1962-63.  [I guess they call it "middle school" now.]   

The band and orchestra teachers (Fred Cooper and Monroe DeJarnette) used it only to set concert pitch for the ensemble.

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/18/2014 20:49:16

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/18/2014:  20:44:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I had to look up instructions for operating this Conn tuner and the reading of what Conn has written about tuning of all instruments including piano is quite extensive. 

I just found their piano off sets in cents.I kinda gotta go to school on running this but it looks like fun.

---

Here is one source:

mts.net/~smythe/st-6.htm

rstevens - Posted - 08/18/2014:  21:44:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Conn writes about tunings of many instruments,piano being one.

They have many graphs and findings.I've just scratched the surface with Conn.

I'll be finding out some cool stuff whether anyone thinks its valid or not.I'll let you all know as I find out more.

---

You don't seem to notice that some of the contributors to this thread already have a very good understanding of this topic and probably aren't waiting for you to "find out more".

steve davis - Posted - 08/19/2014:  04:20:31

These fine folks are giving their opinion on the workings of my bridge because I sent them one of my bridges that I have have been making for many years now,rstevens.

People discuss things like intonation all the time and we all have our opinions.

My experience and opinions are worth as much as any human being's and I'm just getting on a roll here.

Maybe you'll understand better as time goes by and more aspects of this subject gets discussed.I'll be getting used to my nice Conn strobotuner this week and when I feel ready I'll be posting my results and more opinions.

I have more experience with the Davis Compensated Bridge than anyone on the planet,rstevens(in case you hadn't noticed).

I'm just starting to feel my stride.

Edited by - steve davis on 08/19/2014 04:29:54

steve davis - Posted - 08/19/2014:  04:52:24

Like I said earlier,this isn't a trial and John and Russ aren't a judge and jury.

We're all just a guy with an opinion.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 08/19/2014:  08:59:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

These fine folks are giving their opinion on the workings of my bridge because I sent them one of my bridges that I have have been making for many years now,rstevens.

People discuss things like intonation all the time and we all have our opinions.

My experience and opinions are worth as much as any human being's and I'm just getting on a roll here.

Maybe you'll understand better as time goes by and more aspects of this subject gets discussed.I'll be getting used to my nice Conn strobotuner this week and when I feel ready I'll be posting my results and more opinions.

I have more experience with the Davis Compensated Bridge than anyone on the planet,rstevens(in case you hadn't noticed).

I'm just starting to feel my stride.

---

Steve,

The above highlighted sentence leaves me wondering if this is what you mean. I certainly think everyone has as much right to their opinion as anyone else but I disagree that all opinions are worth as much as others. I think the worth or value of an opinion is based upon the credibility, history, experience, and documentation (among other things) of the person giving the opinion. don't you think? I mean whose opinion would you value more on hitting a baseball: Ted Williams or Arnold Palmer?

Ken

steve davis - Posted - 08/19/2014:  09:13:51

When it comes to evaluating data there is always opinions involved.

I have discussed my work and ideas over the years with the best and most talented luthiers we have in Maine and my ideas and work are valid on their own because of this collaboration.

I learned from my Grandfather to seek out the best people in the fields I wanted to know about which is what I've always done concerning banjo ideas and questions.

When someone interperates data they bring their own perspective into the picture.

I need to get my numbers from my tests on each fretted note and compare those numbers with Russ and John's to see if there are any descrepencies and then (if there are) to figure out why.

I surely won't let John and Russ's numbers and opinions be the definitive word(s)  on my "Baby".

This is a quest for knowledge and the more the merrier.I have my very own opinions and numbers which are of equal value to John and Russ's.

It ain't rocket science to figure out the value of each fretted note and it's a bit of an opinion to say where they belong.

Edited by - steve davis on 08/19/2014 09:25:22

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/19/2014:  10:29:32

The notes for any given intonation system have absolutely defined numbers in Hertz or the old Cycles Per Second designations.  These numbers are not open to nor subject to opinions at all.  They're absolute.  Whether or not you like any of the clearly defined scales is a matter of opinion.  If we're talking about using 12TET  (12 Tone Equal Temperament), then the note values are established by using the 12 root of 2.   This system is a compromise, to be sure.  Notes are no longer all whole number divisions of the octave...and it's with whole number divisions that we get "false" harmonics or "chimes" on strings.   So its ET vs. Just or Pythagorean or any number of other systems.  

Banjos are (usually) fretted using 12TET, those adherents to the rule of 18 notwithstanding.   About the best we can do is to get the second harmonic (12 fret chime) to match the 12 fret fretted note OR use the same procedure at the 19th fret.   Then just hope the frets are in the right place and live with the problems of ET. 

Once again, I'll suggest a dense but important book:

How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony  amazon.com/Equal-Temperament-R...393334201

And you'll notice a number of other books on the history of ET and other intonation systems. 

But with banjos, the most important issue is that 12th fret thing.  Get that right (and I'm sure Steve's bridges to a good job with a lot of banjos), and you're about as "there" as you're going to get, given reality.  

And you're going to be in deep doo-doo until you get the action at the nut correct as a starting place!

steve davis - Posted - 08/19/2014:  10:54:16

Basically that's why I locked onto the 12th fret matches and played the hand I was dealt with the rest of the frets.

Averaging the frets in both directions from "center".All banjos have a "controllable" 12th fret.

The Pope - Posted - 08/19/2014:  11:14:23

Live link to book reference by Rick:  amazon.com/Equal-Temperament-R...393334201

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/19/2014:  11:28:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner 

 

 . . .  Once again, I'll suggest a dense but important book:

amazon.com/Equal-Temperament-R...393334201

And you'll notice a number of other books on the history of ET and other intonation systems.  . . .

---

(Erik, thanks for the live link!)

Rick, I remember you recommending this in another thread, but I neglected to write it down.  I've just this minute ordered it and expect to have it Thursday.

I of course have Barbour's Tuning and Temperament: A Historical Survey--just about any serious student of music history (and/or performer of early music) has it on the shelf, despite his obvious bias in favor of 12TET as the penultimate, if not ultimate, temperament.  My copy sits next to Rudolf's Grammar of Conducting (1950, 1969, and 1980 editions).

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/19/2014 11:44:28

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/19/2014:  11:48:13

Thanks for the live link.  I'll get this figured out one of these days!

It would be interesting to hear a banjo with the "True Temper" system at some point.  Of course it probably wouldn't play in tune with other fretted instruments not done that way!

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/19/2014:  11:54:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

Thanks for the live link.  I'll get this figured out one of these days!

It would be interesting to hear a banjo with the "True Temper" system at some point.  Of course it probably wouldn't play in tune with other fretted instruments not done that way!

---

Was this not an attempt to do that?

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/19/2014 11:56:23

Glenn Nelson fanned-fret banjo

Explorer - Posted - 08/19/2014:  12:30:44

I do appreciate the time and effort being invested in seeing exactly how close various bridges get to being correctly intonated, and how much they deviate, on a variety of banjos. There's been a lot of discussion centering on opinion, and it's nice to have actual facts brought front and center.

Facts about how things actually are trump opinions about how folks think things are every time.

Thanks, folks!

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/19/2014:  12:38:33

Russ, no, that's fairly "normal" fanned fretting which some believe helps with string gauge selection. The True Temper thing is this:

truetemperament.com/

Yeah, makes compensated bridges look flat and straight!

banjo bill-e - Posted - 08/19/2014:  12:57:23

Seems like those truetemperament guitar fretboards would be weird when bending a note, Would you not be changing the temperament when you bend the string to a new part of the fret? I'd still like to hear a banjo with a neck like that just to hear the difference.

rstevens - Posted - 08/19/2014:  13:33:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I learned from my Grandfather to seek out the best people in the fields I wanted to know about which is what I've always done concerning banjo ideas and questions.

---

The notes for any given intonation system have absolutely defined numbers in Hertz or the old Cycles Per Second designations.  These numbers are not open to nor subject to opinions at all.  They're absolute.  Whether or not you like any of the clearly defined scales is a matter of opinion.  If we're talking about using 12TET  (12 Tone Equal Temperament), then the note values are established by using the 12 root of 2.   This system is a compromise, to be sure.  Notes are no longer all whole number divisions of the octave...and it's with whole number divisions that we get "false" harmonics or "chimes" on strings.   So its ET vs. Just or Pythagorean or any number of other systems.

It's a pity your Grandfather didn't know about this.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 08/19/2014:  13:35:23

Here's a pic of a guitar fretboard made by a luthier in Finland, which has "compensated" every fret for some specific string set using sophisticated computers.

This is particularly useful for an electric guitar or bass with "endless sustain" but not so useful for a banjo, which has a fast decay and, as Pete Seeger so articulately said, produces a galaxy of notes, with a tune in there somewhere.  Impossible to analyze every note on as banjo.

To me, getting overly fixated on compensated bridges and nuts and questioning tempered scales on a fretted instrument with variable string gauges like a banjo could be either inexperience, which is understandable, or a symptom of OCD, and may warrant seeking professional help.

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/19/2014:  13:46:17

Robbie, my grandfather probably didn't, but if I go back a few generations on my father's side, there's someone who did: Emmons Hamlin, co-founder of the Mason and Hamlin Piano and Organ Company. My father and his father were named after EH...Emmons Hamlin Turner, Jr. and Sr.

And everyone does have the option of not paying any attention at all to any of this. Just play a fretless banjo, and all will be well intonated in your world...if you can learn how to play in tune.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/19/2014:  14:18:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rick Turner

Russ, no, that's fairly "normal" fanned fretting which some believe helps with string gauge selection. The True Temper thing is this:



[live link below]

---

truetemperament.com/

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/19/2014:  14:26:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken LeVan

Here's a pic of a guitar fretboard made by a luthier in Finland, which has "compensated" every fret for some specific string set using sophisticated computers.

 . . .

To me, getting overly fixated on compensated bridges and nuts and questioning tempered scales on a fretted instrument with variable string gauges like a banjo could be either inexperience, which is understandable, or a symptom of OCD, and may warrant seeking professional help.

---

Wow!  Ken, when I first looked at the photo, I wondered if I needed a new eyeglasses prescription--no kidding!

It's also an excellent visual representation of why no compensated bridge can work perfectly at every fret for every string.

As to the rest, I cannot speak for others, but I'm an engineer and a certain amount of OCD goes with the territory.  (Which is not to say that professional help wasn't suggested to me before I became an engineer.  Then, I was just a musician with an undiagnosed OCD. )

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/19/2014 14:33:19

rudy - Posted - 08/19/2014:  14:26:23

quote:

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Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

Russ, no, that's fairly "normal" fanned fretting which some believe helps with string gauge selection. The True Temper thing is this:



[live link below]

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truetemperament.com/

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Have fun using a crowning file on those!

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/19/2014:  14:44:48

quote:

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Originally posted by rudy

quote:

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Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

Russ, no, that's fairly "normal" fanned fretting which some believe helps with string gauge selection. The True Temper thing is this:



[live link below]

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truetemperament.com/

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Have fun using a crowning file on those!

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I'm really surprised that they were awarded patents.  However, I read several months back that it has become comparatively easy to get a patent, at least in the USA--especially if you are willing to spend the money.  An attorney friend of mine who specializes in both intellectual property and in litigation looked at this and said, "I would really enjoy defending a suit filed by these guys.  I think they would lose."  (She also plays guitar . . . )

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/19/2014 14:56:13