Yanni - Posted - 08/20/2014:  14:05:09

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

John,

Thanks for your investigations and posting them on this forum.

It's up to 3500 "reads" at this point.

This topic is always a lively one, and I'll readily admit, I just don't "get" the fascination with compensated bridges.  I'd love to understand it.

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Forgive me Ken but do you not use moon bridges?  Are these not compensated bridges or am I incorrect?  I too (newbie alert!) do not understand the need to wring the last drop out of a subject.  If the banjo sounds good, it sounds good :)

Ian

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  14:16:11

quote:

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Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

If it sounds better to me then I must be onto something...Steve Davis

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An opinion, not a fact.

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Probably because playing by ear is highly controlled by opinion,imo.

Edited by - steve davis on 08/20/2014 14:18:43

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  14:24:33

Yanni, forgive my jumping in, but yes, a "moon bridge" is a compensated bridge.

And this thread should be labeled "OCD-Only Crowd".

If you want real fun, try compensating a 12 string guitar bridge. Been there, done that, still doing more. What fun! Banjo players have it easy. No string gauge range of as much or more than five times the thinnest with plain and wound being right next to one another in some cases. We call the comping "house topping" because the saddle winds up looking like a Monopoly board with a lot of rentals on adjacent squares with all the house tops offset a bit. One thing I've learned is that if you double the number of strings, you more than triple the work.

Anyone comp a banjo bridge where there's a tunneled 5th string? Is it different?

Explorer - Posted - 08/20/2014:  14:32:37

I, for one, do hope that Steve continues in his previously stated wish to have hard data available on how his bridge does measure up to Steve's own statements.

He sent the bridges out so potential customers could evaluate how the bridges would fill their needs, and since accurate intonation is a major selling point and part of the need to be filled, I'm not sure what Steve's problem is with having those claims tested.

Since this site has been used as a free advertising resource, I appreciate Steve letting the accurate mesaurements continue as the "price" of all that free advertising..

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

This thread is about evaluating my bridge design and I didn't start this thread,so it's not self-promotion.

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Not starting a topic doesn't mean that folks might not talk up one's own products or services, which is indeed the definition of self promotion.

Again, I'm appreciative of Steve letting the bridges live up to the claims through good testing.

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  14:32:46

Steve, playing by ear should be pretty close to the numbers other than not liking the beats between notes due to Equal Temperament. Matching a note to the harmonic is NOT based on opinion. Unless, of course, one has a "tin" ear. A reasonably well trained "ear" can hear the difference between a fretted 12th fret note being sharp or flat to the "chimed" second harmonic. You may not be able to tell how many cents off it is, but if you can't hear it being right or wrong, then this whole discussion is irrelevant to you. The problem with "by ear" is that there may very well be a bias against ET. It isn't natural, and notes of scales are indeed out of tune with one another, a subject that has been beaten to death here. This tends to show up the greatest when playing chords, not in rapid fire cascades of 1/16th notes which is what most Bluegrass playing consists of.

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  14:46:16

I don't have a problem with anyone testing my stuff.I designed it on a cheap tuner and will use all this info to help improve my product.

I want to learn in this process and when I compare my findings to Russ And John's I will know more.

I may be facing some kind of redesign or not.

I don't have my "hard numbers" yet from my Conn tuner and look forward to seeing if I get the same results as Russ and John or if we differ in some way.It's called finding the truth through multiple testings,imo.Most consistent way to do it,imo.

I want to test the same bridges I sent to John and Russ if possible so that I can see if we reach the same conclusions.

I didn't think about comparing the same bridges until I got into waiting for the Conn to show up.Now I want to analyze the foundations of my design in a more detailed way.

I could also maybe mail the 2 bridges for other people to look at and get their opinions.

I have no problem responding or challenging when I see fit on any issue especially one concerning my Babies.I hope to learn a lot from my Conn tuner experience.

Edited by - steve davis on 08/20/2014 14:51:03

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  14:51:45

Once again, if it's intonation you're talking about, it isn't about opinions, it's about the numbers. If a 12th fret note is sharp or flat of the harmonic there, that is NOT opinion, it's fact. If it agrees, it's NOT opinion, it's fact. To say 12th fret intonation is opinion is like saying that the measurement .125" = 1/8" is an opinion. No, it's not. Hard numbers are not opinions, they are facts. Not liking a fact is an opinion, but that doesn't make it right. Time to pull the subjective away from the objective here.

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  14:57:20

The way chords sweetly harmonize up the neck has its roots in numbers and opinion,especially in a bridge/straight fret compromise.

Finding the numbers that make the played notes raise the hairs on the back of your neck has its roots in physical reaction to an aural stimulus.

I believe that to be my goal at times.

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  15:01:25

Steve, I have a spare Peterson VS-II "Virtual Strobe" tuner here that I could loan you for a month or so. It's very accurate, it's easy to read, and it's versatile as can be. It's got a mike or you can use a pickup with it. Once you get it dialed in to a 12 th fret setup, it can be used to see just how sharp and flat ET notes are. Pretty informative... Also kind of dismaying... Send me your address, I'll UPS you a loaner Peterson.

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  15:04:48

One other funny thing...

We're hammering 12 fret note should = 12 fret harmonic here. In Buzz Feiten's system, he has very specific offsets for NOT doing this in order to make other notes "more in tune"; he likewise has very specific tuning offsets to go with his compensated nut system. Yeah, you're deliberately tuning some notes more out of tune so other notes can be more in tune... For better or worse... Yeah, down the bunny hole into Wonderland here...

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  15:17:42

I have a Conn strobotuner I've borrowed from my pal down here,Rick.

That should tell me all I need to know,but thanks for the great offer.I have no expectations.

I'm looking for great tone in all keys.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  15:27:29

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

Steve, I have a spare Peterson VS-II "Virtual Strobe" tuner here that I could loan you for a month or so. It's very accurate, it's easy to read, and it's versatile as can be. It's got a mike or you can use a pickup with it. Once you get it dialed in to a 12 th fret setup, it can be used to see just how sharp and flat ET notes are. Pretty informative... Also kind of dismaying... Send me your address, I'll UPS you a loaner Peterson.

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Rick, since Steve promptly turned your great offer down, may I borrow it?  I'd really like to try the iPad apps against it, and to check the shop setup (frequency synthesizer, frequency counter, oscilloscope) against it.

In fact, I'd like to repeat my comparison of the Sullivan straight and Davis compensated bridges with your tuner.

Happy to reimburse shipping to show my appreciation!

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/20/2014 15:34:20

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  15:39:15

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

 . . .

I'm looking for great tone in all keys.

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Since there are 12 major and 12 minor keys--a grand total of 24--that's going to be quite a trick in 12TET.

Bach gave us "The Well-Tempered Clavier".  Is Davis going to give us "The Well-Tempered Banjo"?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/20/2014 15:48:59

banjo bill-e - Posted - 08/20/2014:  15:42:43

I played a Buzz Feiten-ized Telecaster and thought it played better and sounded better than any other Tele that I've ever picked up. It had a "rightness" to it that I can't define. I did not even know what it was when I played it and only found out about the Feiten system later. I have read on other forums people who think that Buzz is full of it and can prove how wrong he is about intonation. But unscientific me just likes what he likes. If it sounds good, it IS good, and since I have nothing to prove or argue about then I'm happy with just that.

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2014:  15:51:12

A fella can dream,can't he?

Great tone in all keys.If we can imagine it,it can be done.

ere.

"Great" may need to be replaced by "tolerable" here and there...the well tolerated scale?

Edited by - steve davis on 08/20/2014 15:53:39

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  15:59:24

Buzz' system is interesting; one of his theories is that we can handle a bit more "out of tune-ness" with 4ths and 5ths to get less "out of tune-ness" with 3rds and 6ths. It's really a modification of 12TET specific to guitar. It's NOT capo friendly, though. Buzz is basically a jazz player...and a very good one...and he doesn't use capos, so his sweetening works great for him. Many of my favorite guitarists and singer songwriters do use capos as well as some pretty radical open tunings. For them the Feiten system does not deliver the goods. In addition, guitar maker and player Kathy Wingert told me that she liked her own guitar Feitenized...until she tried to play with other musicians whose instruments had not been modified. Train wreck.

Russ, send me your address and I'll send you the Peterson. I've got one of the older true strobes at my bench; my main setup guy has one of these VS-IIs at his bench, and mostly we just use Snarks to get things tuned up quickly. In production we go for "ball park" and that's pretty well jigged up. We're really at the point with the electric bridges...Tunamatic-style...where we can adjust them by eye and they're "close enough for rock'n'roll".

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  16:03:36

"Tolerated" is really the right way to think about 12TET. The only way to get better would be to AutoTune each note. Antares is as close to being able to do that as anyone, but it's not quite there yet for banjo, and with anything like that there is latency which drives some players up the wall. autotuneforguitar.com/

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  16:04:17

Rick:  Private message sent via regular e-mail.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  16:11:47

quote:

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Originally posted by banjo bill-e

 . . .  But unscientific me just likes what he likes. If it sounds good, it IS good, and since I have nothing to prove or argue about then I'm happy with just that.

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I can appreciate that, Bill.  It took me several years to find a viola that I really liked, a search aggravated by the fact that what I thought that I wanted in terms of tone was changing during the search!

I finally found what I wanted in 1982--a modern French instrument--with some "nose" in the tone (think English horn or oboe) rather than "baby cello", a German sound.  

And some of my colleagues, violists all, didn't like it at all . . . (pause for gasp of disbelief).

On the other hand, "tone" (which is what I was searching for) is not "intonation" (which I always strive to achieve as perfectly as possible, regardless of instrument).

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/20/2014 16:22:53

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  16:26:00

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

quote:

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Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

If it sounds better to me then I must be onto something...Steve Davis

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An opinion, not a fact.

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Probably because playing by ear is highly controlled by opinion,imo.

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And here I've gone along for well over 50 years believing that playing by ear was highly controlled by the ear--which was why it was called "playing by ear".  Well, shuckydarn.  Silly me.  Live and learn.

(Yes, folks; I know it's more complicated than that.)

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/20/2014 16:42:01

rudy - Posted - 08/20/2014:  16:54:17

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

Yanni, forgive my jumping in, but yes, a "moon bridge" is a compensated bridge.



And this thread should be labeled "OCD-Only Crowd".



If you want real fun, try compensating a 12 string guitar bridge. Been there, done that, still doing more. What fun! Banjo players have it easy. No string gauge range of as much or more than five times the thinnest with plain and wound being right next to one another in some cases. We call the comping "house topping" because the saddle winds up looking like a Monopoly board with a lot of rentals on adjacent squares with all the house tops offset a bit. One thing I've learned is that if you double the number of strings, you more than triple the work.



Anyone comp a banjo bridge where there's a tunneled 5th string? Is it different?

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It depends on how the stopping point for the tunneled fifth is implemented.

My tunneled fifths rest directly on the fifth fret or I occasionally add a .006" saddle over the fret to elevate it slightly.  Since the fifth string can be thought of as a string that is being fretted at that location it ends up having the exact same compensation requirements as the first string.  Depending on your playing style compensation may or may not need to be addressed.  If the fifth is used primarily as a drone then there isn't really a need to compensate it, so it can go along for the ride with whereever the bridge position ends up being located as a result of compensating the other strings.

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  17:04:04

Russ, one of the biggest problems in a discussion like this is that not everyone is on the same page, so to speak, when it comes to understanding the underlying problems with Equal Temperament. There's confusion between trying to get the 12 fret notes and harmonics to match...that being one issue...and the instrument playing "in tune" on all strings at all frets in all keys...that being the second and thorniest issue. The best 12th fret intonated banjo in the world will not play "in tune" with itself, if, by in tune, you are hoping that string harmonics (and I'm not talking simple 12 fret or 1/2 the string's "speaking length" at any note) line up from string to string and note to note. If it is perceived to be "in tune", then that's because the listener has a certain acculturated tolerance for a certain degree of out-of-tuneness. Most of us here grew up listening to hundreds and thousands of hours of music being inherently "out of tune"...yes, "out of intonation". We're trained for it. But hearing perfect intervals is a real revelation. But it takes a fretted instrument with fret spacing that is specific to a particular key, and even then, you may have to go to the wiggly frets to really pull it off, and even that will be dependent on how the instrument is tuned so that every note on every fret is truly harmonic to the tonic note chosen. It's kind of doable in the banjo world where so much of the music is in a very few keys, but I don't know who is going to deal with changing instruments...for the full fretted portion of the band...for every key. Might be interesting, though...

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  17:05:56

Rudy, I was wondering if that long "after length" from the 5th fret up to the tuner had any effect vs. a non-tunneled string.

rudy - Posted - 08/20/2014:  17:09:15

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

"Tolerated" is really the right way to think about 12TET. The only way to get better would be to AutoTune each note. Antares is as close to being able to do that as anyone, but it's not quite there yet for banjo, and with anything like that there is latency which drives some players up the wall. autotuneforguitar.com/

 

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I'd say "tolerated" might be a bit much when considering listener response to 12TET.  Considering that the average listener needs  between 3 and 4 cents pitch deviation  to detect a change in pitch then 12TET is perfectly acceptable to most musicians, except those that are blessed with an extreme intolerance to pitch variation.  Our ears have been semi-successfully programmed to be desensitized to 12TET within the confines of western music, too.  As I've stated repeatedly, the interval of a third is the most troublesome, with a 14 cent deviation from being a pure interval.  Fretted instrument players instinctively sweeten the third for the key in which they choose to play, and the remaining intervals are "close enough for government work".

I know it's been discussed ad nauseam, but if anyone fails to understand the ramifications of 12TET then they're going to miss the entire point of all this endless discussion.

ScratchJohnson - Posted - 08/20/2014:  17:11:58

I tried playing by ear but the picks wouldn't fit.

rudy - Posted - 08/20/2014:  17:20:18

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

Rudy, I was wondering if that long "after length" from the 5th fret up to the tuner had any effect vs. a non-tunneled string.

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It's bound to have at least a minimal effect on compensation, but since I use the fifth as a drone it's a non-issue for me.

In the past I've given some strong consideration on the after length of the strings from bridge to mounting point and also the length of string from the nut to the tuner post.  I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the total length of those two areas when calculated as a percentage of the total is relatively small.  That resultant percentage number has to then be calculated into the amount of "stretch" that results in a noticeable change in pitch when a string is fretted.  When I evaluated those factors I came up with numbers that were so small that they could in practicality be disregarded. 

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  17:23:16

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

 . . .  Most of us here grew up listening to hundreds and thousands of hours of music being inherently "out of tune"...yes, "out of intonation".

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I know exactly what you're saying, Rick.  

Remember, I spent a lot of years sitting (as a violist) in the middle of an orchestra.  

One of the really fine things about being in a long-lived string quartet is that we (and our audiences) always enjoyed the truly perfect harmonies that only unfretted, bowed strings can produce - - -

- - - harmonies that you will never hear from any banjo or other fretted instrument . . .

. . . regardless of what bridge is on it.  

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/20/2014 17:35:14

Rick_S - Posted - 08/20/2014:  19:35:19

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

  ... a generic compensation, while probably better than no compensation ...

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That's all I ever claimed 35 years ago, and all I claim today.

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  19:59:35

No fair Rick Shubb! You know what you're talking about!

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  20:23:40

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick_S

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

  ... a generic compensation, while probably better than no compensation ...

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That's all I ever claimed 35 years ago, and all I claim today.

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That sound you hear in the background is an angelic host singing "Alleluia". 

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  20:59:19

Ummmm, errr...

Russ, I love oud music. And saz. And sitar. And South Indian vina. And North Indian rudra vina. Fretless, then just intonation fretted. Amazing.

And I totally "hear you" re. bowed fretless. Many years ago when doing an article on intonation for "Acoustic Guitar Magazine", I met fiddler Matt Glazer at a gig, and I asked him, "When you are not playing with Equal Tempered instruments, do you and other violinists (and fiddlers!) drift into Just Intonation?" He said, "Absolutely, and by asking me this, I can assume you know why."

Consonance...that's what's missing with 12TET.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  21:45:06

Of course in Indian and other Eastern music, they make full use of semitones, and I suspect their sense of pitch is more highly developed as a result. To me, that form of music more closely mimics the human voice, which is rarely on perfect pitch, and as a result can have more "character" than does music performed on a strict twelve tone scale. With the semitones they can create subtleties we can't match on fretted instruments, with the exception of occasional slurs or bent notes. The violin, and other fretless instruments can do it quite well, but we still tend to shy away from semitones in Western music, with the exception of some electric guitar, slide guitar and the theramin. Even there, the semitones are usually something passed through on the way to one of the twelve tones. Indian violin takes full advantage of it. But the ear is just not attuned to it for most Westerners, until they hear a good amount of it.

DD

Rick Turner - Posted - 08/20/2014:  21:52:36

Dan, the next time David Lindley comes to town (often the Kuumbwa), check him out. He's the best Western musician I know of who can seamlessly go between Western scales and Eastern.

Also, all Indian music is based first on voice. The goal as an instrumentalist is to mimic the human voice, and a huge amount of the training is vocal, even if you're an instrumentalist...even if you're a percussionist. A friend of mine, Kartik Seshadri, was Ravi Shankar's last disciple before Ravi-ji concentrated on teaching his quite amazing daughter, Anoushka. Kartik teaches at UCSD and has achieved the top honor of "Pandit" in the North Indian music sphere. I've helped him work on his sitar which British Airways did a good job of nearly destroying a few months back. It is/was considered to be a the Stradivari level of that type of instrument and was made by the same guy who made Ravi's main instrument. Kartik took the top off about 20 years ago, and we braced it like an archtop guitar and re-graduated it. It was amazing and it was an amazing experience.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 08/20/2014:  23:30:54

I met David a few times when I lived down in Pasadena area back in the 60's. We had several mutual friends. I remember one time, a group of us sitting around a living room. David was on the couch, with a banjo flat on his lap, drumming a pencil on the strings absent mindedly, improvising complex little tunes, while carrying on a conversation. Sounded like a hammered dulcimer. I've never met a more naturally musical person. I think you could bring him an instrument he'd never seen before, and come back a day later and he could give you lessons on it. 

How did Kartik's sitar sound after the re-bracing? My hands would be shaking, working on something like that. Of course when I was younger, I was fearless. (or foolish)

DD

steve davis - Posted - 08/21/2014:  03:25:03

quote:

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Originally posted by RawhideCreek

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Turner

Steve, I have a spare Peterson VS-II "Virtual Strobe" tuner here that I could loan you for a month or so. It's very accurate, it's easy to read, and it's versatile as can be. It's got a mike or you can use a pickup with it. Once you get it dialed in to a 12 th fret setup, it can be used to see just how sharp and flat ET notes are. Pretty informative... Also kind of dismaying... Send me your address, I'll UPS you a loaner Peterson.

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Rick, since Steve promptly turned your great offer down, may I borrow it?  I'd really like to try the iPad apps against it, and to check the shop setup (frequency synthesizer, frequency counter, oscilloscope) against it.

In fact, I'd like to repeat my comparison of the Sullivan straight and Davis compensated bridges with your tuner.

Happy to reimburse shipping to show my appreciation!

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I promptly turned down his great offer because I don't need 2 tuners to figure out the notes,Russ.

Pleas mail me John's bridge in the next couple of days (he told me he sent his to you) and whether you will trade yours for another so I can test the same 2 bridges that you and John tested.

Thank you very much.

Edited by - steve davis on 08/21/2014 03:27:18

steve davis - Posted - 08/21/2014:  03:44:38

Another option would be for you to send me your promised bridge to evaluate and when I'm done I'll send it back to you.

RawhideCreek - Posted - 08/21/2014:  07:52:58

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

Pleas mail me John's bridge in the next couple of days (he told me he sent his to you) and whether you will trade yours for another so I can test the same 2 bridges that you and John tested.

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If you look back (page 1 of this thread, dated August 14), you'll see that I posted that John would be sending me the bridge before he posted the same information.

Can't send it on before it arrives, and it's not here yet.

There once was a young man named Bright

Whose speed was much faster than light.

He set out one day (in a relative way)

And returned on the previous night.

Edited by - RawhideCreek on 08/21/2014 07:55:57