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Stephen John Prior - Posted - 11/28/2015: 09:30:46
Orpheum tag inlaid on dowel. I'll post some photos later.
beezaboy - Posted - 11/30/2015: 09:06:20
SJP -
Thank you for the photos. I listed the Williams-Orpheum 5-string in our list. Perhaps "Williams" was R.S. Williams & Co. of Toronto Canada?
John Firth-Smith - Posted - 11/30/2015: 15:26:06
Hello there Beezaboy,
I just wanted to inform you about a change of details on your hypothetical date chart.
I swapped some banjo's with Skip Sail here in Australia years ago ,one of the banjo's I got from him was the Orpheium #1616 a 5 string open back on your list.
Can you change the the owners name on the list to my name to avoid any confusion if I want to sell the banjo in the future.
I love the banjo and appreciate all the work you are doing to list surviving examples of these great banjo's.
Many thanks. J F-S
beezaboy - Posted - 11/30/2015: 16:12:06
J. F-S:
I put your name on 1616.
Stephen John Prior - Posted - 12/01/2015: 07:44:34
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
SJP -
Thank you for the photos. I listed the Williams-Orpheum 5-string in our list. Perhaps "Williams" was R.S. Williams & Co. of Toronto Canada?
The style of the 'Williams' inlay does look very much like the way it is printed on one of their 1905 cataloges. Would i be right to assume the date of manufacture to be around then ?
beezaboy - Posted - 12/01/2015: 17:14:19
We do not have enough early 5-string numbers to estimate manufacture date.
By 1910 R&L was offering the Orpheum in numbers 1-4.
But I do not know when R&L expanded its line from one style to the numbered styles.
There are several style numbered serial numbers lower than your Williams.
So, based upon the limited info we have now I'd guess ca 1912
beezaboy - Posted - 12/12/2015: 17:36:05
Thanks I saw that.
After 5 years of numerous BHO men and women sharing their Orpheum serial numbers this person goes secret club.
I'm speculating that there is a really good reason.
languidcrane - Posted - 12/17/2015: 12:00:29
Hello beezaboy,
I wanted to share my Orpheum no.1 with serial number 12547. It is a 5 string with the 12 1/8" head. I received this from Bob Smakula about 6 years ago.
Best,
John
Edited by - languidcrane on 12/17/2015 12:01:03
languidcrane - Posted - 12/17/2015: 12:02:49
Interior of banjo -
beezaboy - Posted - 12/17/2015: 15:17:56
languidcrane - Thank you for Orpheum 12547 details and images. I put her into our list.
Around the first of the year 1916 I will post our new list with the 2015 new entries and a few new ideas.
Thanks again.
beezaboy - Posted - 12/18/2015: 09:25:44
We have some new data for 2015 so we'll publish our revised serial number list dated January 2016 in this post together with a revised Hypothetical Date Chart which I'll put in the succeeding post.
In addition to many new numbers from BHO members in 2015 we also have some early numbers from BHO member Jim Bollman who has been collecting Orpheum serial numbers for several years. Of significance Jim has provided 4-string tenor #1842 and Brass Band #2386.
Please note our earliest numbers at the top of the list (1497, 1516, 1534, and 1585). These Orpheums do not have style numbers.
R&L began publishing Orpheum style numbers (Styles 1-4) and prices in June 1909 in the Cadenza magazine.
Therefore, I have revised our hypothetical Orpheum Serial Number Date Chart to account for these no model number examples. My thinking is that they are pre-1909 banjos. After 1909 Orpheum banjos should have had Orpheum #1, #2, #3 or #4 inlaid in the peghead in my estimation.
The first model number Orpheum we have in our list is serial #1616 (a #3 5-string) and I have placed this banjo in the 1916 range in our hypothetical date chart.
In addition (and working backwards) we now have three early Orpheum 4-string tenor banjos (#1890, #1918, and #2040). Orpheum 4-string tenor banjos were first described in the Music Trades magazine on April 24, 1915 in an article about Orpheum products sold by Bruno. It has been my experience that Bruno Orpheum products usually hit their catalog about one year after R&L began making the product. Therefore, in revising our hypothetical date chart I have placed our earliest 4-string tenor banjo (#1890) in 1914, and Jim's #1918 in the year 1915 and my own #2040 in the year 1916. The Orpheum 4-string tenors have been one of our dating benchmarks.
Comments about our serial number list and the hypothetical date chart are invited and welcome, of course.
beezaboy - Posted - 12/18/2015: 09:45:48
Attached side-by-side are our Hypothetical Orpheum Date Charts from 2014 and now 2016.
As mentioned above, the no style number Orpheums we have had in our serial number list needed to be accounted for I think.
See the attached cut for the peghead shape of the pre-style number Orpheums together with some photographic images of this peghead which I think was the original peghead shape for Orpheum banjos. I have placed these banjos in the pre-1909 category.
Let me know what you think.
Meanwhile, Happy New Year!
Edited by - beezaboy on 12/18/2015 09:49:16
Newl Post - Posted - 12/18/2015: 17:22:40
quote:
Originally posted by drad dog
ebay.com/itm/RARE-Rettberg-Lan...wxN5WagOu
This looks to be a really old one. But he only photographs the "15..." and not after...
We'll be putting this one on the list soon, I hope. I won the listing. So as soon as it arrives I'll post a photo of the serial number.
Newl Post - Posted - 12/18/2015: 21:01:44
John, I also just acquired an unusual tenor banjo with a headstock in the Orpheum (#1, 2, & 3) shape. Plain ebony overlay, partially missing and without inlay. It is 18 frets to the neck joint, with a fretboard extension to 20 frets. The rim appears unusually thick and seems to be an arch top without a tone ring. It looks as though the inner top edge of the rim was milled/ground/carved with a ridge to form the arch top. I'll post some photos here of it, too. I'd like your opinion/observations.
beezaboy - Posted - 12/19/2015: 04:33:27
Linc - We'll wait to hear.
Meanwhile to correct text error in above post - Orpheum #3 5-string #1616 our first style number example is placed in the 1909 time frame not 1916.
Newl Post - Posted - 12/19/2015: 09:40:16
quote:
Originally posted by Newl Post
John, I also just acquired an unusual tenor banjo with a headstock in the Orpheum (#1, 2, & 3) shape. Plain ebony overlay, partially missing and without inlay. It is 18 frets to the neck joint, with a fretboard extension to 20 frets. The rim appears unusually thick and seems to be an arch top without a tone ring. It looks as though the inner top edge of the rim was milled/ground/carved with a ridge to form the arch top. I'll post some photos here of it, too. I'd like your opinion/observations.
Tenor banjo mystery solved. Makers mark is on dowel facing the head instead of facing out the back. It says "Made By Favilla Bros. New York, NY U. S. A." I'll see if I can post photos. I just uploaded them. But they haven't appeared in my album, yet. No, not posted in the album, yet. But it really has an integrated arch top tone ring. The top of rim is milled/routed to provide a ridge around the interior top edge. The ridge has holes bored through it for sound to exit into the center of the rim. And the neck has a strongly Orpheum feel. The headstock is the same profile as the Oprheums. The depth and radius of the back of the neck matches the Orpheums. The heel is the same shape. And there is a stripe down the center of the back. I'll post photos when they appear in my album titled, My Orpheums.
Newl Post - Posted - 12/19/2015: 22:00:01
Here's a couple photos of the Favilla with the very Orpheum-like neck & headstock.
Newl Post - Posted - 12/30/2015: 10:53:19
The no model number Orpheum 5 string sn "15XX" arrived. The sn is 1501.
Newl Post - Posted - 12/30/2015: 11:18:56
quote:
Originally posted by Newl Post
The no model number Orpheum 5 string sn "15XX" arrived. The sn is 1501.
beezaboy - Posted - 12/30/2015: 14:51:34
Linc - Thank you for the photo of Orpheum 1501 serial number. I will gladly put her into our list. It is one of the few no model number Orpheums we have.
Now, I hope someone knows precisely when R&L began making the Styles 1, 2, etc as this would be a great benchmark date for our hypothetical date chart.
Right now the earliest date for model numbered Orpheums is June 1909 in The Cadenza magazine.
I took the liberty of attaching a few photos of 1501 as it is classic with the no name peghead and the Orpheum brand name on the dowel and the maker tag tacked to the rim
Those no-name Orpheums are really cool.
Newl Post - Posted - 12/30/2015: 17:52:50
John - glad this one can add to the info we're gaining from your work and this list.
What do you make of the headstock on the Favilla Bros. tenor I posted?
beezaboy - Posted - 12/31/2015: 03:45:34
Linc - There has been some discussion on BHO about Favilla banjos and who made them. Some of the Favilla banjos are distinctive for the holes in the rim. I always thought Favilla made their own banjos. Why not? They were makers not jobbers (attached). Your Favilla headstock shape and thin middle strip sure looks like Orpheum. Maybe Favilla was not set up to make banjos and had Rettberg & Lange make them so they could be a part of the tenor banjo boom. Or perhaps Favilla got assembled 3-piece neck/headstock parts and other parts from Lange and assembled Favilla brand banjos from Lange parts? There is speculation that Fred Bacon was using Lange parts to assemble Bacon internal resonator banjos back in ca 1913.
Stephen John Prior - Posted - 12/31/2015: 08:23:12
John. I also have 14389. Which is a Plectrum someone has crudely converted to a 5 string. 12 & 1/8th inch pot.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/01/2016: 04:13:39
SJP - Details? Rim tag? Style number?
Stephen John Prior - Posted - 01/01/2016: 05:17:31
Apologies John. It's a No.1. The dowel is just stamped with the number. No tag on the rim just the patent stamp. The rim is currently with Malc at Brighton Banjos for a replica neck. I have retained the original neck albeit in a poor state.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/01/2016: 07:54:38
SJP - I put your Orpheum Plectrum 14389 in our list.
It is interesting that Newl Post gave us Orpheum Plectrum 14444 (your banjo's neighbor) that also came rim tagless.
Both Plectrums. Hmmm???
Ruben - Posted - 01/03/2016: 12:36:23
I just picked up a No1 with serial number 06980 in the Netherlands. The upper fretboard is damaged, the neck is in not too great a shape overall, and there's a bracket missing.
Wondering what I'm going to do with this one. Would be a pity to lose all those nice inlays. It's playable, perhaps I'll keep it as is, and just put a new calfskin on her.
If someone has an extra bracket for a No1 I'd be interested :)
liuto - Posted - 01/03/2016: 13:13:02
Looks like a nice banjo. Close in age to my #1 tenor. I use ebony dust and super glue to fill missing wood on the fingerboard. The boards on the #1's aren't ebony but a black stained hardwood, still the ebony dust usually matches well. Try andybanjo.com in the UK for parts. He's a good guy and has a large stock of original parts for many, many banjos.
Banjo Lefty - Posted - 01/03/2016: 13:14:51
Would it have had steel strings originally?
Edited by - Banjo Lefty on 01/03/2016 13:15:16
beezaboy - Posted - 01/03/2016: 13:41:33
Ruben. I put your new Orpheum 5-string 06980 into our list. Could be a nice banjo with some tinkering.
Interesting tailpiece. Is it marked with a brand name?
Head is pulled down way too far. Not easy to put a skin head on an Orpheum with the tall hoop sitting on the "staples" to get it to come out even with the fretboard top.
The super glue ebony or rosewood dust trick also requires some practice. I've done it only twice and barely avoided making a mess. The glue beads up on the dust.
liuto - Posted - 01/03/2016: 15:16:25
You're right about the super glue and ebony, it beads or mounds above the surface. You have to use scrapers and sand paper to level it. If you're not a tinkerer then best take it someone such as my self to have dit done. Main point is that cracked a gouged finger boards can be saved.
Ruben - Posted - 01/03/2016: 23:56:44
Thanks for the info. The tailpiece has no brandmark, just a "patent pending" engraving. I'm not sure how the fingerboard would have looked originally: as it is it ends right at the rim with some rugged edges beneath the fretboard. At fretlevel it's symetrical with the 20th fret though. Could be that only the binding has come off. But on some orpheums the fretboard extends way over the pot, would this have been the case for this one too?
beezaboy - Posted - 01/04/2016: 02:51:46
The little extended fretboard was an Orpheum feature (and selling point) on many Orpheum 5-strings. Some have the extension and some don't. I do not know why the inconsistency. But I count only 21 frets on your Orpheum. It should have 22 so it appears that the extension broke off at the 22 fret cut.
Stephen John Prior - Posted - 01/04/2016: 04:00:29
Ruben. I probably have a spare bracket for your No.1.
G Edward Porgie - Posted - 01/07/2016: 08:48:44
John, I just noticed that Ebay banjo myself. It appears as if it might have a serial number, but the pictures are not clear.
Perhaps if you emailed the seller, you could obtain another early number to add to your chart.(Of course, perhaps you already have.)
beezaboy - Posted - 01/07/2016: 14:20:34
Seller was kind enough to furnish the ebay Orpheum serial number.
1502.
From the catalog cuts we have of no model number Orpheums this peghead shape matches and is a classic for our expedition, I think.
I put 1502 into our list.
Newl Post - Posted - 01/09/2016: 11:53:40
quote:
Originally posted by Newl Post
This is the url to a #3 tenor on eBay that appears to have a sn not on our list: 6173
ebay.com/itm/281896696586?_trk...BIDX%3AIT
There's also a #2 tenor on eBay but no sn is mentioned. I'll message the seller.
Response from the seller of the Orpheum #2 banjo on ebay now - no numbers on dowel.
chas5strings - Posted - 01/13/2016: 07:32:14
A banjo/mandolin for your list
No. 2750
Pot Tag "made by rettberg & lange new york city" black letters on white
perch pole stamped "made expressly for joseph gilman bridgeport, conn"
perch pole tag "ORPHEUM" blue letters on white background.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/13/2016: 12:30:41
chas5strings - Thanks. We have that banjo in our list already. Look a few posts back where the Jan 1, 2016 list is posted.
Thanks for the additional information about the dowel stamp.
chas5strings - Posted - 01/13/2016: 14:07:38
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
chas5strings - Thanks. We have that banjo in our list already. Look a few posts back where the Jan 1, 2016 list is posted.
Thanks for the additional information about the dowel stamp.
Mmmmm I would be interested to know when this instrument first appeared in your lists.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/13/2016: 14:55:50
I don't know. I do not date the entries as they come in.
Newl Post - Posted - 01/22/2016: 08:31:38
Here's the URL to the neck for an interesting 17 fret tenor. It does not have a model/style number and the headstock shape is not the usual Orpheum numbered style. It has an early style tag and a low sn - 3562. The seller has the rim and hardware listed separately from the neck.
ebay.com/itm/131707568570?_trk...BIDX%3AIT
beezaboy - Posted - 01/22/2016: 14:04:08
Don't know what that neck is, Linc. Not an Orpheum. Would have had an Orpheum dowel tag if it was.
Chatmanx - Posted - 01/29/2016: 17:30:41
Just picked this up yesterday. Orpheum No. 1 (#5096) with in red Orpheum tag, Rettberg & Lange with the 724833 patent number. It is a 17 fret tenor. Appears to be a Slingerland tailpiece (fancy script). The case appears to be similarly old, Lifton (best guess) 3 ply case. The head is dirty, there has been a inexpert superficial repair to the peghead, a few tension hooks have been replaced, but it is otherwise looking good.
It was recommended that I post here. I am aware of and benefited from the Orpheum threads but wasn't sure whether to add to and which to add to.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/30/2016: 04:08:37
Chatmanx - Thank you for the details about Orpheum 5096. I put your banjo into our list. It is one of the earlier red tag banjos. I'm thinking it was made about 1918.
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