aulddawg - Posted - 06/10/2015:  08:37:15

This is from that lefty on ebay :  ebay.com/itm/261914382003?_trk...BIDX%3AIT

Shouldn't we be able to see the tone ring from this angle?   Did someone remove it?   Would they have stopped putting them in the No. 1 line?

beezaboy - Posted - 06/10/2015:  09:00:38

Tom - You should see the ring.  It sits on top of "staples" on the inner side of the rim creating the archtop appearace.

Orpheum white tag/Bruno dowel tag no serial number

 

 

 

beezaboy - Posted - 06/10/2015:  09:02:59

Attached is our Orpheum Serial Number list for mid-year 2015:

jb1828 - Posted - 06/10/2015:  09:03:00

John - just to verify - the "LANGE MADE" stamp on the dowel should be posted the description for 17,263, not 27,531 as noted.

Also, from what I've seen online, I'm assuming that what is pictured is the dowel... I'm pretty new at this.

 

 

beezaboy - Posted - 06/10/2015:  11:50:50

Jim - I've got it right.(?)>  See page 6 of serial number list.

George - See Jim's unusual (for teens Orpheum) dowel.  Laminated stick (?) instead of one piece.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 06/10/2015:  14:53:03

John, I thought in your previous comment that you were refering to the ebay Orpheum posted by DradDog immediately prior to what I thought was a response.

Jim's banjo is an entirely different matter (and quite nice), and had I not been confused as to what you were refering to, I wouldn't have commented.

By the way, I just purchased an Orpheum tenor, serial number 3329. It has the "Orpheum" tag on the side of the dowelstick and a tag on the inside of the rim reading "Bruno and Sons." There is no evidence that a "Rettburg and Lange" tag was ever tacked anywhere on anything.

The thing needs a bit of work, but I didn't pay a lot for it, and it's basically very solid. I'll see if I can take a few pictures, even though right now its appearance leaves something to be desired.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 06/10/2015:  14:55:27

I just re-checked your list and discovered that this one (3329) is already on it.

beezaboy - Posted - 06/10/2015:  17:05:20

Orpheum 3329 is an old one.  It would have had a "white" tag like the one attached a few notches up in our thread if the men at the factory hadn't forgotten to tack it on.

Edited by - beezaboy on 06/10/2015 17:06:37

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 06/10/2015:  19:54:33

Well, at least they didn't forget to put anything else on it!

fcware - Posted - 06/11/2015:  12:00:51

Huh. I guess spring and summer light makes a difference with my aging eyes. I can't believe I've been missing this all this time. Sad!

My Brass Band (previously pictured on May 11th) appears to be serial number 06590 -- if, for any reason, you'd care to add it to your list.

 

 

 

beezaboy - Posted - 06/12/2015:  09:01:25

Chris - Wow - that is an important banjo for our research.  It is the type I Brass Band introduced in The Cadenza magazine in Sept. 1914.  I don't know but I wish the serial number was lower as my hypothetical date chart has this banjo as 1918.  By 1918 the type II Brass Band had been introduced in 1916.  I'll have to speculate and say R&L made type I and type II Brass Band banjos at the same time depending on what the customer wanted.  Brent Hayes played a very long neck banjo so maybe that influenced R&L to continue to make this 29 fret five-string long after they had introduced a more contemporary style.

I will add Brass Band 06590 in our list.

Thanks.

PS - I just noticed that in our list I reported that the owner of 06620 said that it was purchased new by a family member in 1919.

Edited by - beezaboy on 06/12/2015 09:08:43

fcware - Posted - 06/12/2015:  11:43:22

Dear John,

Glad that it can be of some use, though sadly I think it's still a "Brass Band 2.0" -- if you compare the headstock inlay in your early 1914 ad, I think mine still matches the later version with the added "Brass Band" lettering, which the 1.0 version doesn't seem to have. My guess is that your guess of 1918 is absolutely right on.

As for the extended 29 frets, maybe it was the lingering influence of Alfred Farland, who'd apparently contracted R&L to make his banjo parts (which he reportedly assembled at home, perhaps even doing the lettering on the headstocks by hand.) As the top of his line he offered a 29 fret instrument to accommodate those who apparently wanted to imitate his upper-register techniques. (As I mentioned above, I've got one of these Farlands; it's a bevelled wood rim -- no tone ring -- and the inlay varies -- though I've seen Orpheums with the Farland headstock, suggesting a "mix and match" going on at some point. Plus the tenth, not the ninth fret, is marked on the Farland, making it confusing to switch back and forth between the two, but the scale is the same, so maybe R&L had the fret sawing guide made up for Farland and they figured what the heck, they'd sell a 29 fret Orpheum, too. Then again, it may be the other way around — the Brass Band begat the Artist's Grand. Who knows. The Farland is a lighter instrument by quite a bit, the neck is a little bit wider, and the fingerboard appears to be rosewood, not ebony.) Anyway, all minutae which may or may not be of any aid to your quest. I'm attaching a scan of the c. 1915 Farland catalog which the American Banjo Fraternity reprinted a while ago which pictures the 29 fret "Artist's Grand." It's offered with or without the extension fingerboard, so maybe that's evidence that it was a R&L, not a Farland, innovation. Both necks are fretted perfectly and stay in tune all the way up to the highest G, rather amazingly.

My very best wishes,

Chris W.

Farland "Artist's Grand" Catalog Description

 

 

 

beezaboy - Posted - 06/12/2015:  13:30:42

Hi Chris -

Thanks for your post and the Farland scan.

Oh well, good news and bad news.  The Brass Band is one of our dating benchmarks and I get excited when we see one.

Sorta bad news - Orpheum Brass Band 06590 is a type II.

Good news - The Orpheum hypothetical dating chart is at least ball park.

Best,

John

liuto - Posted - 06/14/2015:  22:18:47

I thought you might like to have one more banjo to add to your list. I recently restored an Orpheum 17 fret tenor that I'd purchased years ago. The stained fingerboard and fingerboard binding were in tough shape. I made ebony binding to replace the dyed pear wood original. I was able to file half holes so the binding on the up side of the neck would drop in over the original dots and it worked out well. Tucked a calf head to replace the torn original cleaned the rusted hardware, etc. The paramount tailpiece is the one it came with and I'm unsure if it was a replacement or not? The serial number is 06647.  I play Irish tunes on it and it's a lovely little banjo.

 

beezaboy - Posted - 06/15/2015:  07:00:35

liuto - Yes, indeed.  Always love to get a new Oroheum addition and have entered 06647 into our list.  Thanks.  It has always puzzled us about the zero prefix on numbers in the 6XXX category.  Some sixes have zeros and some don't.  Maybe it had something to do with WWI(?).  Nice restoration too.  It's good to save our Orpheum banjos.

liuto - Posted - 06/15/2015:  08:59:22

Thanks John. I've found this entire thread really fascinating and thank you for all your research.

beezaboy - Posted - 06/24/2015:  07:40:04

I thought this was interesting (attached).

A modern Orpheum 5-string with a most interesting label.

The label says Orpheum since 1901.

The earliest use of the Orpheum name on a banjo that I can find is a Bruno model named "Orpheum" in a 1902 Bruno catalog.  This Bruno model banjo was most probably made by Rettberg & Lange as they were very tight with the Bruno company.

Rettberg & Lange's Orpheum banjo was definitely in the works in February 1903 per a sort of a teaser business news note in The Cadenza magazine.  Then R&L took an ad in the April 1903 The Cadenza to announce the introduction of its Orpheum banjo.

Also, in the Orpheum trademark registration papers Wm. Lange states that the first use of the name Orpheum occurred on August 28, 1902.  This coincides with the Bruno catalog.

From my point of view, then, the attached Modern Orpheum label is incorrect.

Modern Orpheum

Modern Orpheum Label

 

 

joe28675 - Posted - 06/27/2015:  06:38:18

Intermountain Guitar & Banjo has a #2 original 5 string Orpheum listed, serial # 3013.

beezaboy - Posted - 06/27/2015:  07:29:51

Joe - Thank you for the Orpheum 3013 alert.  I put this Orpheum #2 in our list.

In a way this is the classic Orpheum banjo because it has the little extended fretboard.  It is doubly interesting with the nice R&L and Orpheum white tags properly placed and a clearly readable serial number on the dowel.

I never could quite understand R&L's advertisement for this classic style tiny extended fretboard Orpheum 5-string.  They advertised something like: short neck - long strings gives the Orpheum that classic 5-string banjo tone.

I don't know about the 12 3/16" rim and 28" scale on 3013, though.  That seems too large and too long for the regular Orpheum and perhaps this was a special order or a banjo made on spec..

Edited by - beezaboy on 06/27/2015 07:32:02

Orpheum3013

 

 

 

joe28675 - Posted - 07/08/2015:  17:42:26

Another Orphium #2 original 5 string, serial number 6558...

Inside pot

Heel carving

Peghead

Orpheum 2

beezaboy - Posted - 07/08/2015:  18:44:19

Joe - Thank you for Orpheum #2 5-string 6558.

How weird - the banjo above in our list is 06552 with the zero prefix.  Then 6558 doesn't have the zero.

I put 5668 into our list.

joe28675 - Posted - 07/08/2015:  20:04:44

Don't know of any reasonable explanation for some serial numbers being prefixed with a zero and some not.
I once owned Orpheum #1 serial number 06435 banjo guitar. It had a 14 1/8" pot and a broken heel so I made a five string neck for it. I still have the neck.
Gryphon stringed instruments has an Orpheum #3 special, serial number 7145 for sale..

link: shop.gryphonstrings.com/produc...id=115311

tony123 - Posted - 08/22/2015:  12:25:05

Hi All, I don't know anything about banjos I inherited this from my grandfather, it's a Rettberg & Lange Red tag Orpheum  I'm having a hard time making out the numbers there's nothing on the rod I know the bridge was replaced but not sure about anything else can anyone give me any insight on this ?

Old Orpheum

 

tony123 - Posted - 08/22/2015:  12:30:15

 

tony123 - Posted - 08/22/2015:  15:27:28

I have more pictures if needed 

beezaboy - Posted - 08/22/2015:  16:01:51

From the photos it appears that your Orpheum was originally a 4-string tenor banjo and the previous owner converted it to a 5-string by removing the original neck and installing a non-Orpheum 5-string neck and a fresh dowel stick.  The original tenor dowel with the serial number stamped on it is probably still attached to the original tenor neck.  So, you have what is sometimes called a conversion banjo.

rmcdow - Posted - 08/25/2015:  22:20:48

I have an Orpheum #3 tenor, with a carved heel and peghead from that era when Orpheum had a lot of laminations.  The head has 10 laminations, the bottom half of which taper out over the center stripe of 3 laminations and the top half end up under the fretboard.  My question is concerning the serial number on the dowel (appears to be an extension of the neck, as the lamination is the same).  It is pretty clear, and is 8 + I5.  That's an upper case "i", not a 1.  The Orpheum has the white R&L tag inside the rim with Orpheum in red.  John, do you have any idea what the serial number means?  If you want pictures, I can send them to you.

beezaboy - Posted - 08/26/2015:  03:18:18

Rives - I have never seen an R&L serial number like the one you describe.  You can see from our serial number list that R&L used sequential four and five digit numbers stamped on the dowel.  I thought that maybe it might be a later Lange serial number for a special order but if so it would have had a Lange rim tag and not a Rettberg & Lange rim tag as you say.  So, I am completely baffled by the stamp on your dowel.

rmcdow - Posted - 08/26/2015:  08:19:14

John, here is a close-up of the serial number in a couple of lighting situations.  I've looked at this with a loupe, and the indents in the wood, which are pretty much visible in the photo, are as I described.  It would be interesting to know if anyone else has run into this type of serial number on an Orpheum.  There doesn't seem to be anything else out of the ordinary about the banjo, as Orpheums go, except it has gold plated friction tuners, all the rest of the metal is nickel.  I guess this means it doesn't make it in the serial number list. 

Orpheum #3 serial number

 

 

 

beezaboy - Posted - 08/26/2015:  10:38:27

Rives - I would add your serial number to our list in a heartbeat if only I knew where to put it!

John

UncleMose - Posted - 08/26/2015:  14:13:17

Here's an Orpheum #3, serial # 15618 for your database. (It has an add-on Elton resonator).

Serial Number

Label

headstock

 

UncleMose - Posted - 08/26/2015:  14:16:39

Some more pictures.

back

heel

front

 

beezaboy - Posted - 08/26/2015:  14:37:49

UncleMose - Thank you for your contribution.  I have entered Lange Orpheum No. 3 tenor #15618 into our list.

rmcdow - Posted - 08/26/2015:  21:38:07

John,  my guess is that someone was probably drinking some pretty good spirits and just pulled some random stamps out of the box when it got to stamping the serial.  Any idea what year 'shine was that good?  It had to be before prohibition.

beezaboy - Posted - 08/27/2015:  03:24:50

Rives - Your serial number looks to be a four digit number beginning with "8".  I think the dowel was stamped in 1919 and was, in fact, just before Prohibition which commenced January 1920.  So, my guess is that your banjo was made in 1919 which was post WWI and in the beginning of the "jazz age" when the tenor banjo was coming to the front in the dance orchestras and influencing many regular folk to take up this peppy instrument.

rmcdow - Posted - 08/27/2015:  07:24:51

Hmmmm.  Wonder where he got that white R&L tag?  The banjo has a Vega spin on resonator that screws onto a threaded bracket in the middle of the dowel.  It's pretty plain, and looks like it would have to be after market when compared to the elaborate inlays and laminations of the Orpheum.

Edited by - rmcdow on 08/27/2015 07:39:03

twangplunk - Posted - 10/03/2015:  08:00:51

Hello!

  I have another banjo for your list. It's an Orpheum No. 1 with the serial number 6543 and a white R&L tag. The case seems pretty old, but I don't know anything about it other than it's got a Bruno sticker. If anyone has any information on that, I'd love to hear about it! I'm new to banjos, and my grandpa was nice enough to give me this one (it was found in a thrift shop in Arizona I believe) so pretty much any and all information is exciting

 

 

beezaboy - Posted - 10/03/2015:  08:44:49

twangplunk - Thank you for Orpheum #1 tenor banjo no. 6543.  I put it into our list.  The Bruno tagged case is really interesting.  Bruno was a musical instrument wholesaler (jobber) that had a close relationship with Rettberg & Lange from the very beginning.  Bruno faithfully carried the Orpheum line throughout the years and in about 1919 became the exclusive distributor for Orpheum banjos.  It is common to see a Bruno tag along with the Rettberg & Lange tags on Orpheum banjos.  I calculate that your Orpheum was made about 1918.

guitcadet - Posted - 11/17/2015:  19:55:00

I have an Orpheum #2 5 string, #10173. Will post some pictures when the weekend gets here. Also will get some pictures of the case, including a shipping label from the 1930's, when it was shipped from New Jersey to Wisconsin. Was my grandmother's banjo and languished in an attic until rediscovered about 8 years ago.

guitcadet - Posted - 11/18/2015:  21:52:21

Pictures for #10173.  Note that it has a Wilmot birdseye maple resonator, not mounted on banjo in the back view picture.  The shipping label is from just before Christmas 1938.  My dad was born in 1936, shortly after the family had moved to Wisconsin, so banjo was shipped from friends in NJ.  Note also the signed back of the original skin head (I kept the torn head as a historical record when putting the banjo back in playing condition).  I'm tempted to put the ABM small diameter planet tuners on this to replace the original friction tuners, but have been afraid to mess around with an original instrument too much.

SN

Neck

Back View

Pot

Label

Original Head

Reso

Pegs

R&L

Neck Detail

Label Santa

 

liuto - Posted - 11/18/2015:  22:10:22

If you plan on playing it I'd recommend getting the small shaft planetary's or pancake style from Prucha. Greg Boyd has them as well. You shouldn't have to alter anything to fit them. Worse case is barely having to open the holes. The difference in tuning makes it well worth the effort.

liuto - Posted - 11/18/2015:  22:22:45

I forgot to add that I've tried just about everything to get the friction tuners to be effective but they usually suck. Imprecise and time consuming to get a string in tune. If someone on this thread knows how to make them smooth and precise please let me know. Anyway, a small alteration like upgrading tuners is in my book not degrading a vintage piece. I will not bore out the head of a banjo for modern sized tuners like the 5 stars and Schallers. They're great machines but you have to alter an older instrument too much to fit them, risking weakening the headstock and degrading the value.

beezaboy - Posted - 11/19/2015:  03:19:03

quitcadet - Thanks for Orpheum 10173.  I added it to our list.  My estimate of manufacture date is 1920.  You might check with Bob Smakula as he also carries the Gotoh smaller shaft tuners as well as the ABM.  In 1903 R&L acquired the rights to Elite tailpiece and installed them on Orpheum banjos.  There are two Elites that I know of.  The first are stamped with a pre-1903 year number (I can't recall now the number) and those are pre-Orpheum.  Later Elites that went on the Orpheum I think are just stamped Elite.  Another thing - The photo of the current friction tuners makes me think they are not original.  You could start a new thread here and ask if they are original.  If not, you won't be altering the originality of the banjo by replacing them with geared small shaft.

Bob Smakula - Posted - 11/19/2015:  05:04:19

I agree with John that the tuners of 10173 are not original. Likely ABM tuners could be installed without enlarging the tuner holes.

I just received an ABM shipment, so there are plenty in stock.

Bob Smakula

smakula.com

liuto - Posted - 11/19/2015:  06:49:56

The ABM's I got from you Bob are a fine tuner as well. Smooth as can be!

guitcadet - Posted - 11/19/2015:  08:32:55

Thanks for all of the great info.  I've been looking at the tuners on Bob Smakula's site and hoping this can be my Christmas present this year.  This banjo has already spent some time in Bob's neighborhood - I managed to make it to Pickin' in the Park in Elkins a few summers ago while in the area.

Stephen John Prior - Posted - 11/27/2015:  11:45:12

I have a 5 string numbered 1729.

beezaboy - Posted - 11/27/2015:  12:41:40

1729 is a real low number as things go with out list.

Any details you can share about the rim and dowel tags (plaques) and the words and numbers on the peghead would be helpful.

Stephen John Prior - Posted - 11/28/2015:  04:45:06

11 & 1/8th inch head. Rim stamped 'Patented 724833' and a '1' stamped above aperture where dowel goes through to heel. Looks like a No.1. but the peg head has 'Williams' inlaid in mop where the style number is usually inlaid. I assume this one was made for the Canadian company Williams ?