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Tim Coulter - Posted - 02/04/2016: 10:34:17
I have an Orpheum No. 3, five-string, serial no. 7085. It has a white tag with Orpheum made by (in red) Rettberg and Lange New York (in black) on the rim and an ivoroid tag on the dowel stick saying C. Bruno & Son, Inc. Distributors New York. It has a 12 3/8 inch rim and an extended fingerboard. Neck and rim are mahogany. I have no information that would help date the instrument. Thanks for your work and your hypothetical date chart. I see that 1919 is the probable date for this banjo. Let me know if further information would be useful.
beezaboy - Posted - 02/04/2016: 11:04:35
Tim - Thanks for details about Orpheum 7085. I put your banjo in our list. R&L starting advertising their plectrum banjos in 1918 and we have plectrum banjo with serial number somewhat lower than yours so I'm thinking 1918 is probably a good estimate.
Tim Coulter - Posted - 02/04/2016: 11:58:54
Thanks. This is good to know. I suppose it depends on how many serial numbers they use in a given year.
beezaboy - Posted - 02/09/2016: 05:54:26
Linc - Thanks for the Orpheum alerts. I put both banjos into our list.
22willow22 - Posted - 02/14/2016: 15:55:10
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quote
:Hi - looking for a bit of friendly advice and comment! I read with interest your summation of the serial numbers for the Orpheum 2 tenor banjo. I have one with serial number 14209. It has been in our family since the early 50's, seldom played and sits in our closet, inherited from my father. It has the Rettenberg & Lange tag outlined in red. It has the patten stamp of 724833. The banjo itself is in great shape. The skin is stamped "Calif Genuine Swingerland Drum". The original case is in 'fair' shape with the original purple velvet encasement. Do we have the real deal? What should we do about authentication? Restoration? If so, by whom? We will consider selling it but don't know what a fair price would be. Will be happy to send any documentation you may need on the serial number - perhaps ours is the oldest at this point in time!
Originally posted by beezaboy
corywendland -
The lowest Orpheum Lange tag we have to date is #14648. Lange took over Rettberg & Lange on Jan 1, 1921 but didn't change the company name to Lange until December 1921. I guessed that 1922, then, would be the first year we would have no more Rettberg & Lange tags and an uninterrupted string of Lange tags. Notice that Rettberg & Lange and Lange tags are interspesersed from #14648 to 15510. So, a Lange tag with serial number lower than 14499 might very well be vintage 1921 during the company's transition period from Rettberg & Lange to Lange.
22willow22 - Posted - 02/14/2016: 16:01:20
I posted a long text and it went somewhere in cyberspace! If anyone is interested that we have an Orpheum No. 2 with serial number 14209, please contact us. Banjo in great shape, original case with the purple velvet is fair.
beezaboy - Posted - 02/14/2016: 16:24:24
I recommend that you take about 8 photos of the banjo inside and out and open an original post in Collectors' Corner post the pictures through your homepage here and pose your questions in your original post. Without pictures BHO members can't assess. Also, an original post will get a lot more replies than buried in this one.
Newl Post - Posted - 03/08/2016: 11:08:55
Just had a discussion with a Facebook friend on a group page dedicated to Stromberg Voisinet and Kay Kraft guitars who owns an Orpheum he bought from Bernunzios. It is a #1 model plectrum, sn 11554. I didn't see it on the list - hope I didn't overlook it. He says Bernunzio's put a date on it of 1913.
beezaboy - Posted - 03/08/2016: 12:14:21
R&L did not start advertising Plectrum banjos until 1918.
Vega, who was usually first with everything, does not have a reported plectrum until 1915.
Do we know what kind of tag is on the rim of this plectrum?
Newl Post - Posted - 03/10/2016: 14:54:11
I will pass that on. I'd just assumed erroneous stuff about plectrums. And I'll ask about the tag.
Newl Post - Posted - 03/10/2016: 15:05:30
He has a pic of the tag posted. It is a red tag.
beezaboy - Posted - 03/10/2016: 16:20:31
Linc - Thanks for the details for 11554. I put it into our list. My estimate is that it is from 1920.
Newl Post - Posted - 03/12/2016: 05:47:50
Thanks John. I'll pass that on, too.
Crusty - Posted - 03/12/2016: 06:13:00
There's a pretty nice looking Orpheum No 1 for sale on the Goodwill Auctions site right now.
beezaboy - Posted - 03/12/2016: 08:25:29
Goodwill - A standard Orpheum #1 17 fret 4-string tenor banjo with a R&L red tag. Be nice to know the serial number.
Newl Post - Posted - 04/03/2016: 11:45:16
Ebay has a 17 fret, #1 tenor, sn 011116, red tag listed now. Could not find that in the list.
beezaboy - Posted - 04/03/2016: 15:34:24
Thanks, Linc. I saw that one and put it in list. Still a big question mark about why R&L added a zero to the serial number in this 1XXXX group.
Newl Post - Posted - 04/06/2016: 13:05:42
Maybe some other pattern will coincide with the added 0 pattern wine at a reason.
Newl Post - Posted - 04/06/2016: 16:12:51
quote:
Originally posted by Newl Post
Maybe some other pattern will coincide with the added 0 pattern wine at a reason.
Darn that autocorrect: Maybe some other pattern will coincide with the added 0 pattern and HINT at a reason for the 0.
Newl Post - Posted - 04/21/2016: 08:10:21
New acquisition for me - sn 12448 (though the 2 is hard to read it is a 2), Orpheum #1 Guitar-Banjo, red tag. Also, since I noticed that the numbers before and after on the list have mention of wide center stripe on back of neck, this has wide center stripe, too.
beezaboy - Posted - 04/21/2016: 08:26:58
Congrats on your new banjo and thanks for the details.
Newl Post - Posted - 04/22/2016: 03:16:11
Thanks for the congrats.
I'm using the sn 12448 parts to bring another Orpheum 6-string closer to original. I transferred the shoe style lugs and the hoop for the tone ring to my earlier 6-string (sn2233). Last thing it will take is an original tension hoop and tuners to be almost all factory original. I installed 5 star/planetary tuners a few years ago. Now I consider that a mistake. It would take a lot of work to go back to the original style tuners. I was considering swapping fretboards, but the earlier neck is almost 1/8" narrower at the nut - haven't checked how the neck joint width compares, yet.
There's a #1 tenor up on eBay now - sn 11019, red tag in the rim & Bruno tag on the dowel.
beezaboy - Posted - 04/22/2016: 06:28:03
I saw the ebay banjo. Lots of photos but I was unsure of serial number. I'll put it in our list as 11019. Thanks.
beezaboy - Posted - 04/29/2016: 11:15:48
Thanks, I'll check the Elderly listing.
Newl Post - Posted - 04/29/2016: 12:00:30
Correction - its a Super Orpheum #3.
Newl Post - Posted - 04/30/2016: 15:34:14
quote:
Originally posted by Newl Post
Correction - its a Super Orpheum #3.
The correction was wrong - I was confusing a Super Orpheum #2 on eBay now.
Newl Post - Posted - 05/13/2016: 11:24:05
Just in case you haven't seen it already - #3 Special, red tag, sn 9645 on eBay now.
beezaboy - Posted - 05/24/2016: 17:39:46
An old Orpheum #1 4-string tenor on ebay right now (5-25-2016) with serial number 2530. I think 1916 or so. Don't see many of the early Orpheum tenors.
edbradshaw - Posted - 06/26/2016: 10:57:41
Hello everyone. I'm brand new to the forum and wanted to add to the list of Orpheum info. This is an Orpheum #3 with serial number 7266. I purchased it last month from a local shop who had found this as part of collection of banjos at an estate sale. I have little info on its history nor the story on the rhinestones but was told the previous owners name was Rosa Gibbs.
Ed
liuto - Posted - 06/26/2016: 11:26:47
Congrats edbradshaw, that's beautiful banjo and appears to be in great condition, despite the rhinestones! They just add to the charm.
beezaboy - Posted - 06/26/2016: 13:27:12
Ed - Thanks for your Orpheum #3 details and photos. She has been added to our list. I have 7266 as 1919. If so, the rhinestones were probably added later in the 1920's when the more opulent tenors were being used by professional players. An observation - your rhinestones were very nicely and tastefully installed. This suggests to me that the owner was a professional player maybe in a dance band and wanted the peghead to have a professional look. I have a little "rhinestone" 17 fret tenor banjo that looks like the "stones" were installed at the kitchen table. I like it though for the story it tells.
edbradshaw - Posted - 06/27/2016: 10:48:22
Thanks for the date info! You aren't the first to comment on how tasteful the bedazzlement was, in fact, it wasn't until after I bought it and looked for more info did I realize that wasn't originally like that :)
I hate to say it was a impulse buy but was only at the music store to hang up posters for an event (feel free to use that excuse). I had been messing around with mandolin but never tried a banjo, within moments I was hooked and playing tunes. When my wife told me I should buy it, I knew it was meant to be.... or at least I wasn't going to argue.
Mark Ralston - Posted - 06/30/2016: 16:16:15
John - another Orpheum #1 tenor for your records. This one, SN 14659, came from Scranton, PA........ yes, someone did make a 5-string out of it by adding another tuner to the middle of the peghead. It's tagged "Orpheum Made by Wm. L. Lange New York", tagged & sold by Bruno.
beezaboy - Posted - 06/30/2016: 17:42:02
Mark - Thanks for the new addition to our list. I love the get the "Lange" serial numbers. We don't have many compared to the R&L's.
I put her into the list.
Edited by - beezaboy on 06/30/2016 17:55:26
beezaboy - Posted - 06/30/2016: 18:02:20
We have a new serial number today (6-30-2016) from Mark Ralston so I thought it a good time to post our Orpheum Serial Number list for the first half of 2016.
Please see attached.
beezaboy - Posted - 07/01/2016: 03:05:30
Attached is my Hypothetical Orpheum Serial Number Dating Chart.
An explanation for this estimate was posted Dec. 18, 2015.
Shop the Folk - Posted - 07/01/2016: 07:48:16
Here's an Orpheum for the list. It's a big head #3 special 5-string serial number 06225. Paul
beezaboy - Posted - 07/01/2016: 09:52:51
folkshop - Does the #3 have an R&L tag on the rim?
David Aumann - Posted - 07/02/2016: 00:26:17
Many years ago I bought a banjo mandolin with PILOT inlaid on the head stock, together with a ships steering wheel. It's quite fancy with marquetry around the rim, nicely carved heel, fancy fret board inlays. Recently I had to replace its original vellum with a modern synthetic one I bought from Bob Smakula. He said this ship's wheel inlay was used on early Orpheums. This instrument has some Orpheum features and some that are not. Its tone ring is just a metal ring sitting on the outer edge of the rim, and notching into a couple of placement holes - this is its most un-Orpheum feature. Marquetry and heel carving are rather like an Orpheum number 2, I think. There are no makers marks or serial numbers that I can see. I'll add a few photos. Any comments greatly appreciated.
beezaboy - Posted - 07/02/2016: 14:20:35
Paul - Thank you. I put 06225 into our list.
Shop the Folk - Posted - 07/03/2016: 08:33:59
My #3 is holly?. The other #3s I have looked at (mostly 4-stringers) are of dark wood-walnut, mahogany, rosewood ???. I do have a #2 tenor that is also a 'blondy'. Is this a period thing or were the different woods used at all times? I would have preferred to ask this question directly to you but see that that is not possible. Paul
beezaboy - Posted - 07/03/2016: 10:16:03
Paul -To the best of my knowledge about Ca. 1920 the Orpheum #3 Special was described as maple with holly veneer. The regular Orpheum #3 was depicted as a dark wood banjo. So, it appears that the #3 Special was holly and the #3 regular (not inlaid "Special") was finished with a dark wood stain. Perhaps you could special order the holly veneer in other styles as well (?).
beezaboy - Posted - 07/03/2016: 11:03:39
More:
mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1919-68-5/47/
Orpheum #3 (no mention of "Special") appears to be of the dark wood variety and may have been veneered rather than "stained" as I said above.
Edited by - beezaboy on 07/03/2016 11:06:10
Shop the Folk - Posted - 07/09/2016: 12:02:22
John, Here's another blonde for your list, a number 2 tenor, serial #14704. Paul
beezaboy - Posted - 07/10/2016: 05:20:51
Paul - That's a good one! Thanks for the heads-up and the photos. I put 14704 with the "Lange" tag into our list but I don't think it is a holly.
Note: Just a few serial numbers higher is #14717 which has a "Rettberg & Lange" tag.
Lange took over the R&L company on Jan. 1, 1921. He reported that he was going to keep the name "Rettberg & Lange".
But he didn't. On Dec. 17, 1921 in a print advertisement Lange started calling the company "Wm. L. Lange - successor to Rettberg & Lange".
So our list shows a series of "Lange" tags with 14704 a low Lange number up at the top of the Lange's numbers with a few "Rettberg & Lange" tags appearing with higher numbers interspersed with the Lange tags.
Hard to figure when Lange began to use the Lange tags in place of the Rettberg & Lange tags.
Was it early 1921? Or late in 1921?
I guess if we didn't have a bunch of mysteries this wouldn't be any fun.
Thanks again,
John
Edited by - beezaboy on 07/10/2016 05:23:02
MDundon - Posted - 08/01/2016: 14:08:29
Recently inherited an Orpheum No. 1, open back 4-string tenor, serial number 7201 for your list. Thanks for all the hard work.
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